Deaths From Stray Bullets 'shock' Group

[rubl]

From a page on the LINKS, International Journal of Socialist Renewal, article of August, 2010. It also has a nice speech by Giles Ji Ungpakorn, so I guess I can't put the link here.

"The People's Information Centre is an "alliance of a dozen lawyers, academics and social activists formed a month ago to help red shirts who say they are innocent of any crime…". PIC has now accused the state of illegal acts against United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship protesters who were arrested following the government's 19 May crackdown."

Mind you, the PIC also protests against the current government, somehow

2012-05-19

"Govt slammed for not providing |justice to victims of crackdown"

http://www.nationmul...--30182364.html

[khunken]

How many have been charged ?

How many are in prison ?

How many have charges pending ?

How many are currently in the court system ?

etc etc etc

Not many new ones since their sponsors took power. However, most of the red shirt faction MPs are facing charges along with Arisman and the other moron who just had his bail revoked. Not many inside because of the liberal bail laws, not to mention assistance from the sponsors, again. Charges are pending against Thaksin for one, and from memory a few others in Cambodia or otherwise on the lam. The court system is delayed because of the MP status gained by party list (a truly corrupt scam) of many of those facing charges.

Etc, etc - it adds up to political interference with the course of justice. But I'm sure Yingluk will tackle that in her crackdown.

Liberal bail laws !! - once again you surpass yourself - the average bail put on the red shirts was 1 Million Baht.....

Since Yingluck was sworn in as Thailand’s 28th prime minister, her party has made securing the release of 132 Red Shirts from various prisons throughout the country a priority. Jarupong Reaungsuwan, Pheu Thai Secretary, views such action as instrumental in putting the country on the road to national reconciliation.

From early August on, more than 40 Red Shirts – mostly detained on charges of terrorism – have been successfully bailed out by Pheu Thai MPs. More are in the process of being released.

Bailing out supporters was never an official job description for MPs – at least until now. Even previously, only the very top Red Shirt leaders, some of whom were also Pheu Thai members, were rescued. Unlike attending weddings or funerals, securing Red Shirts’ release from jail comes at a much higher cost. Pheu Thai Ubon Ratchathani MP, Vorasit Kalthinand, has used his title deed – worth 16 million baht – as well as salaries and political positions of 9 other MPs from southern Isarn, to get bail for 4 Red Shirts who were sentenced to 33 years in prison for (allegedly) torching Ubon City Hall.Other MPs have spent a minimum of 1 million baht to secure freedom for each Red Shirt in jail.

http://asiapacific.a...the-red-shirts/

Yes, liberal bail laws. Even those (police) sentenced to death for murder can be bailed here. It's just a question of money, which the PTP & red-shirts have plenty of, not to mention attempted (& probably successful) bribery.

[jayboy]

A lot of this would not have happened if the police had done their job.

And what job is that?

Their job is to be congratulated, cheered, and back-patted for not doing their job.... (of enforcing the law).

The usual suspects prefer to concentrate on the police's performance (lethargic as it was ) rather than the murderous activity of the army.

For some we have never heard one criticism of the army's brutality either in 2010 or before or since - not one, not ever.Murder, corruption, brutality, incompetence - anything goes.

Frankly their attitude reminds me of the the brainwashed beasts in Orwell's Animal Farm. "Army good, police bad, army good, police bad, army good...."

It is of course a fatuous posture when both institutions are in need of far reaching reform.

[phiphidon]

When and if they are found guilty of the murder of unarmed civilians they will have little choice and quite rightly so.

Several hundred Red Sirts have already spent up to 2 years in jail, some just waiting to get bail, some being freed after being found innocent at trial so a great deal of them have already taken responsibility for their actions - or did you forget they weren't yellow shirts.

The military on the other hand along with the government have the protection of the Emergency Decree............

There is as much evidence of the army killing protesters, as the armed red shirts killing protesters. So the army mustn't have done anything wrong either.

So where is this evidence? As far as I'm aware we have had DSI's Tharit say one week that the "men in black' were responsible for the death of Col.Romklao and other troops in that incident only to change his statement to the red shirts were responsible after taking into account the testimony of Romklaos widow (though what value she she could add to the investigation I can't imagine). Despite that nobody has been taken into custody over the deaths.

However we do have 25 odd inquests going on so far, where it is suspected that the military were responsible for the deaths of those 25 odd people. That to me doesn't fit in too well with your closing sentence.

The first conclusion to an inquest is expected on July 17th (the taxi driver and the 14 year old boy) so we haven't got long to wait.

[KireB]

Well how about you start vilifying the armed civilians when you identify them, instead of applying your hatred to all red shirt supporters.

Just out of interest the HRW report made it a major point to decry the excessive and disproportionate use of lethal force during clashes with protesters - hardly what you call a "appropriate and justified response".......................

The HRW also mentioned the armed and dangerous Men in Black to be siding with the reds and responsible for provoking the army into battle!

[rubl]

When and if they are found guilty of the murder of unarmed civilians they will have little choice and quite rightly so.

Several hundred Red Sirts have already spent up to 2 years in jail, some just waiting to get bail, some being freed after being found innocent at trial so a great deal of them have already taken responsibility for their actions - or did you forget they weren't yellow shirts.

The military on the other hand along with the government have the protection of the Emergency Decree............

There is as much evidence of the army killing protesters, as the armed red shirts killing protesters. So the army mustn't have done anything wrong either.

So where is this evidence? As far as I'm aware we have had DSI's Tharit say one week that the "men in black' were responsible for the death of Col.Romklao and other troops in that incident only to change his statement to the red shirts were responsible after taking into account the testimony of Romklaos widow (though what value she she could add to the investigation I can't imagine). Despite that nobody has been taken into custody over the deaths.

However we do have 25 odd inquests going on so far, where it is suspected that the military were responsible for the deaths of those 25 odd people. That to me doesn't fit in too well with your closing sentence.

The first conclusion to an inquest is expected on July 17th (the taxi driver and the 14 year old boy) so we haven't got long to wait.

Well said, as long as none can be named, with ID and shoesize, we have to assume that we are only talking about those poor victimised peaceful red-shirt protesters.

[khunken]

A lot of this would not have happened if the police had done their job.

And what job is that?

Their job is to be congratulated, cheered, and back-patted for not doing their job.... (of enforcing the law).

The usual suspects prefer to concentrate on the police's performance (lethargic as it was ) rather than the murderous activity of the army.

For some we have never heard one criticism of the army's brutality either in 2010 or before or since - not one, not ever.Murder, corruption, brutality, incompetence - anything goes.

Frankly their attitude reminds me of the the brainwashed beasts in Orwell's Animal Farm. "Army good, police bad, army good, police bad, army good...."

It is of course a fatuous posture when both institutions are in need of far reaching reform.

The police lethargic? Only if you can call handing over all of Ratchaprasong & surrounds to the red shirts lethargic. I'd call it total dereliction of duty.

Despite what you say (twist?), no one here is saying that the army is perfect. However, most people who has lived here for a while (including Thais) is unlikely to have been affected by the army. In contrast, many (including me) have been subject to police extortion. The police are far more in need of a total reorganisation from top to bottom with a better pay structure to offset their corruption.

Actually, speaking of Orwell, let's not forget 'Big Brother', a very apt description of the originator of the worst of the violence that has been inflicted on the Thai people since around 2000.

[phiphidon]

So where is this evidence? As far as I'm aware we have had DSI's Tharit say one week that the "men in black' were responsible for the death of Col.Romklao and other troops in that incident only to change his statement to the red shirts were responsible after taking into account the testimony of Romklaos widow (though what value she she could add to the investigation I can't imagine). Despite that nobody has been taken into custody over the deaths.

However we do have 25 odd inquests going on so far, where it is suspected that the military were responsible for the deaths of those 25 odd people. That to me doesn't fit in too well with your closing sentence.

The first conclusion to an inquest is expected on July 17th (the taxi driver and the 14 year old boy) so we haven't got long to wait.

Well said, as long as none can be named, with ID and shoesize, we have to assume that we are only talking about those poor victimised peaceful red-shirt protesters.

Thats the strange thing about inquests rubl, they require evidence to come to a conclusion, not like the court of TV, and just so you know where we're at, it's Dead Red Shirt supporters that we are talking about in this thread.

[rubl]

So where is this evidence? As far as I'm aware we have had DSI's Tharit say one week that the "men in black' were responsible for the death of Col.Romklao and other troops in that incident only to change his statement to the red shirts were responsible after taking into account the testimony of Romklaos widow (though what value she she could add to the investigation I can't imagine). Despite that nobody has been taken into custody over the deaths.

However we do have 25 odd inquests going on so far, where it is suspected that the military were responsible for the deaths of those 25 odd people. That to me doesn't fit in too well with your closing sentence.

The first conclusion to an inquest is expected on July 17th (the taxi driver and the 14 year old boy) so we haven't got long to wait.

Well said, as long as none can be named, with ID and shoesize, we have to assume that we are only talking about those poor victimised peaceful red-shirt protesters.

Thats the strange thing about inquests rubl, they require evidence to come to a conclusion, not like the court of TV, and just so you know where we're at, it's Dead Red Shirt supporters that we are talking about in this thread.

.it's Dead Red Shirt supporters that we are talking about in this thread..

Reading all 70 posts on this topic including some of yours, I can only say "you could have fooled me"

[phiphidon]

Are you not confident that state impunity will end?

I have no confidence. But we can't just sit idly and do nothing. We hope that if we do not accept [state impunity] then it will be shaken. What we are doing is to challenge the culture of impunity.

Bravo, well said, why not start with the current incumbents and work outwards, it'll be easier. And much more productive.

You beat me to it. I wonder what she calls red shirts having nothing to do with it or Thaksin not testifying. The committee is obviously made up of red shits fans and PT fans.

Did she even try to explain how a unarmed civilian can knowingly reside in a war zone beside a man caring a rifle to shoot at the army and call them innocent.

The whole world saw it and she talks about it all being the Governments fault. She gives new meaning to the word impunity.

Unfortunately for you and more importantly the red shirts she probably has a far better understanding of the word impunity than you do.

Whereas red shirt supporters have been behind bars for at least two years and some with many more years to go, the government members of CRES and the military / security forces are protected from prosecution by the Emergency Decree.

That my friend is impunity

[KireB]

It's not me that's doing the fooling...........

Yes it is, I even wonder whether ever read the HRW report cause what you are referring to is only a small part of it and also completely out of context!

[Buchholz]

Who gives a shit? This has been going on for years now. No red shirt seizure of the city, no riot, no burning, no military therefore no deaths. Pretty simple equation really. Blame the people who caused it and the puppet master in Dubai. And get a life. Move on.

Unfortunately, with all the blaming, denials, one-sided groups emerging from the woodwork & propaganda, the originator & paymaster is the only one who has not been even investigated let alone charged with orchestrating the occupation of Rachaprasong & other areas of Bangkok. That, of course, would be 'political'.

It may not seem like they've been charged, but they have.

Over two years ago, the paymaster et al were charged with these potential death penalty cases.

Posted 2010-07-29 14:53:07

Thaksin and 24 reds to face indictment for terrorism

The Department of Special Investigation on Thursday submitted for prosecution review on its investigative reports, recommending terrorism indictments and trail for 25 suspects, including ex-premier Thaksin Shinawatra.

DSI Director-General Tharit Pengdit handed over the reports, comprising 60 files, for the first batch of 26 terrorist suspects relating to the red-shirt rally from March 14 to May 19.

[phiphidon]

From a page on the LINKS, International Journal of Socialist Renewal, article of August, 2010. It also has a nice speech by Giles Ji Ungpakorn, so I guess I can't put the link here.

"The People's Information Centre is an "alliance of a dozen lawyers, academics and social activists formed a month ago to help red shirts who say they are innocent of any crime…". PIC has now accused the state of illegal acts against United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship protesters who were arrested following the government's 19 May crackdown."

Mind you, the PIC also protests against the current government, somehow

2012-05-19

"Govt slammed for not providing |justice to victims of crackdown"

http://www.nationmul...--30182364.html

The composition of the PIC and when they were formed is all well and good rubl but I think you'll find what they were formed for is a lot more interesting

The People’s Information Centre is an “alliance of a dozen lawyers, academics and social activists formed a month ago to help red shirts who say they are innocent of any crime…”. PIC has now accused the state of illegal acts against United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship protesters who were arrested following the government’s 19 May crackdown.

PIC states that the suspects “should be entitled to fair and adequate medical treatment, and their bail should be based on their economic status…”.

PIC has information on some 168 red shirts that have been arrested in the Northeast. Ubon Ratchathani has 60, Udon Thani 54, Mukdahan has 28, Maha Sarakham 12 and Khon Kaen has 10 in detention. However, they have no information on other provinces in the region.

PIC says that reports of “harassment and arrests were continuing to come out even though the emergency decree had been revoked in several provinces.” Astoundingly, there are reports that “suspects in Mukdahan had been tortured to confess to arson. They were allegedly hit with hard sticks, kicked with combat boots and caned.” One suspect, ill with the final stages of cancer has been prevented from receiving adequate medical treatment.

These are some of the serious issues facing these political prisoners:

1. Police evidence used for Warrants of arrest is unclear and lacking in legal standards. So people have been arrested and detained under conditions where there is a lack of clear evidence.

2. Those issued with arrest warrants are sometimes unaware of the warrants. This means that they could be facing further charges of “resisting or avoiding arrest”.

3. Some of those who have been detained were assaulted by police while being arrested, despite not resisting arrest.

4. Police use threats and coercion to obtain “confessions”. It is standard practice to tell defendants that their punishment will be less severe if they confess, whether this is true or not and whether they are guilty or not.

5. Many defendants are still denied proper legal representation.

6. Judges have decided to deny bail to Red Shirts, without using standard legal rules. The judges claim they will all try to escape court proceedings, despite having no evidence to prove this. The judges obviously see them as “political prisoners who are already guilty”.

7. Prison conditions are brutal and over-crowded.

8. Defendant’s families are suffering financial consequences. There is no welfare state in Thailand and the fabulously wealthy conservative elites are fiercely opposed to state welfare for citizens.

9. Those defendants who were shot or injured by security officers and those with long-term illnesses are denied proper medical treatment.

The government has repeatedly denied such claims claiming to abide by human rights principles.

PIC does not provide legal aid to suspects but is “calling on the authorities to respect their basic human rights…”

1. The Government must publish an up to date list of all those detained or facing arrest.

2. The Government must provide adequate medical assistance to those prisoners in need.

3. The Government must seriously review the procedures involved with issuing arrest warrants for these political prisoners, since in the past the authorities have just rounded up people without proper evidence. Many people are just detained for weeks and weeks while the police try to build a case against them.

4. Unconditional bail should be granted to prisoners. They should not be made to find huge sums of bail money.

5. Courts should uphold the basic standard which recognises the innocence of defendants until proven guilty in court.

link not provided due to same reasons as rubl provided

[whybother]

There is as much evidence of the army killing protesters, as the armed red shirts killing protesters. So the army mustn't have done anything wrong either.

So where is this evidence? As far as I'm aware we have had DSI's Tharit say one week that the "men in black' were responsible for the death of Col.Romklao and other troops in that incident only to change his statement to the red shirts were responsible after taking into account the testimony of Romklaos widow (though what value she she could add to the investigation I can't imagine). Despite that nobody has been taken into custody over the deaths.

However we do have 25 odd inquests going on so far, where it is suspected that the military were responsible for the deaths of those 25 odd people. That to me doesn't fit in too well with your closing sentence.

The first conclusion to an inquest is expected on July 17th (the taxi driver and the 14 year old boy) so we haven't got long to wait.

"So where is this evidence?"

Well, that's exactly right isn't it? There is no evidence against individual army personnel. So, that would mean that the army didn't do anything. That's the logic you seem to apply to the red shirts. Why can't it work for the army too?

[rubl]

From a page on the LINKS, International Journal of Socialist Renewal, article of August, 2010. It also has a nice speech by Giles Ji Ungpakorn, so I guess I can't put the link here.

"The People's Information Centre is an "alliance of a dozen lawyers, academics and social activists formed a month ago to help red shirts who say they are innocent of any crime…". PIC has now accused the state of illegal acts against United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship protesters who were arrested following the government's 19 May crackdown."

Mind you, the PIC also protests against the current government, somehow

2012-05-19

"Govt slammed for not providing |justice to victims of crackdown"

http://www.nationmul...--30182364.html

The composition of the PIC and when they were formed is all well and good rubl but I think you'll find what they were formed for is a lot more interesting

... long quoted text removed as not relevant to my reply below ...

link not provided due to same reasons as rubl provided

Did you really just tell me "and just so you know where we're at, it's Dead Red Shirt supporters that we are talking about in this thread". Once more, you could have fooled me

[Buchholz]

A lot of this would not have happened if the police had done their job.

And what job is that?

Their job is to be congratulated, cheered, and back-patted for not doing their job.... (of enforcing the law).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRSPKGZQ26c

The usual suspects prefer to concentrate on the police's performance (lethargic as it was ) rather than the murderous activity of the army.

< Unnecessary Flaming Snipped >

Not to concentrate on it, but to contextualize it as lovetotravel has accurately done so.

.

[phiphidon]

I take it you agree with me.

You are trying to change the subject by saying I question your intelligence. The truth is I said You may not have the sharpest mind in the world. Are you disagreeing with that.

As for calling you a red shirt I apologize. For all I know you may well be a member in good standing of the PT party. All your posts fit either category. And the Idea that a Mod would reprimand me for saying the truth is a possibility.

But only if it is a demeaning statement. Do you feel that posting you could be either one of those is demeaning. If so you might just want to rewrite your posts.

Now that I have cleared up those two points would you like to comment on the other points I brought up. Heck I even agreed that soldiers shot civilians and that Thaksin did nothing wrong in funding them up to a point.

Take what you want.

"Not that any other red shit has shown a bit of remorse for the loss of the really honest citizens. You are all alike."

[phiphidon]

In a latest newsflash PIC coordinator and co-editor of the report, Puangthong Pawakapan has just added a minor addendum to the report:

"Of course we also shocked by the deaths from 'stray grenades', but after consultation with experts decided not to mention that as that part was minimal and seen as not relevant in relation to the scope of our investigation and report."

BTW the PIC's website is (in Thai only) http://www.peaceandjusticenetwork.org/

Is that quote true rubl or are you breaking Rule 15?

Tongue in Cheek, firmly as well.

Mind you, did you note the quote I took from the LINKS Int. Journal, it gives a clear indication of what the scope of the PIC is:

""The People's Information Centre is an "alliance of a dozen lawyers, academics and social activists formed a month ago to help red shirts who say they are innocent of any crime…". PIC has now accused the state of illegal acts against United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship protesters who were arrested following the government's 19 May crackdown.""

Thats how the LINKS people introduced PIC, the quote did not come from PIC.

[phiphidon]

There is as much evidence of the army killing protesters, as the armed red shirts killing protesters. So the army mustn't have done anything wrong either.

So where is this evidence? As far as I'm aware we have had DSI's Tharit say one week that the "men in black' were responsible for the death of Col.Romklao and other troops in that incident only to change his statement to the red shirts were responsible after taking into account the testimony of Romklaos widow (though what value she she could add to the investigation I can't imagine). Despite that nobody has been taken into custody over the deaths.

However we do have 25 odd inquests going on so far, where it is suspected that the military were responsible for the deaths of those 25 odd people. That to me doesn't fit in too well with your closing sentence.

The first conclusion to an inquest is expected on July 17th (the taxi driver and the 14 year old boy) so we haven't got long to wait.

"So where is this evidence?"

Well, that's exactly right isn't it? There is no evidence against individual army personnel. So, that would mean that the army didn't do anything. That's the logic you seem to apply to the red shirts. Why can't it work for the army too?

Come back to me on the 17th September and we'll see, won't we.

[Buchholz]

In a latest newsflash PIC coordinator and co-editor of the report, Puangthong Pawakapan

BTW the PIC's website is (in Thai only) http://www.peaceandjusticenetwork.org/

Mind you, did you note the quote I took from the LINKS Int. Journal, it gives a clear indication of what the scope of the PIC is:

""The People's Information Centre is an "alliance of a dozen lawyers, academics and social activists formed a month ago to help red shirts who say they are innocent of any crime…". PIC has now accused the state of illegal acts against United Front for Democracy against Dictatorship protesters who were arrested following the government's 19 May crackdown.""

Thanks for the research.

The PIC (Also Known As PCI) and their work with the incarcerated Red Shirts reminded me of their earlier report that Puangthong's organization put out regarding the background of many Red Shirts.

Most of the red-shirt supporters in jail are garbage collectors, homeless people, and the mentally ill who cannot seek legal help or find enough money for bail.

The People's Centre for Information (PCI) revealed its initial investigation on the April-May crackdowns yesterday. It collected Information about 169 red-shirt protesters who are now under detention over charges of taking part in illegal gatherings as well as arson or terrorism.

PCI discovered that most of the detained red shirts could not find lawyers or enough money for bail.

Most of the detainees are garbage collectors, homeless people, and people with mental health problems.

The Nation / 2010-11-19

http://www.nationmul...--30142601.html

.

[Scott]

A number of posts and replies have been deleted. Stay on the topic and stop with the personal comments about other posters.

[creck]

You came to the city with the intent to cause havoc and mayhem to the other citizens who live here and you got shot. You set fire to our business and rode through our streets like hooligans.. are you really surprised that you got shot.

Whats the morale of the story? You wanted to do harm and you got harmed. Karmas a !!!!!!!!!!!!

Your last sentence should read "You got shot at and I am not surprised that you lost control and set fire to some businesses and rode through the streets like hooligans."

This is not the first time that the army has shot at unarmed demonstrators - why do you find it difficult to believe?

[KireB]

This is not the first time that the army has shot at unarmed demonstrators - why do you find it difficult to believe?

True, but in 2009 and 2010 the demonstrators came prepared and did a turkey shoot on the army in the name of one man and his criminal empire!

The sovereignty of Thailand was under attack and the army eventually, according to many too late, responded!

Let's rephrase your post: the 'unarmed and peaceful' protesters opened fire on the army and try to frame the then sitting PM.

[ttelise]

This is a mess. I don't see how anyone can take either side absent being swayed by passion, prejudice and partisanship. If you condemn Thaksin at least be consistent and condemn Abhisit. Both are frickin low life criminals.

[OzMick]

How many have been charged ?

How many are in prison ?

How many have charges pending ?

How many are currently in the court system ?

etc etc etc

Not many new ones since their sponsors took power. However, most of the red shirt faction MPs are facing charges along with Arisman and the other moron who just had his bail revoked. Not many inside because of the liberal bail laws, not to mention assistance from the sponsors, again. Charges are pending against Thaksin for one, and from memory a few others in Cambodia or otherwise on the lam. The court system is delayed because of the MP status gained by party list (a truly corrupt scam) of many of those facing charges.

Etc, etc - it adds up to political interference with the course of justice. But I'm sure Yingluk will tackle that in her crackdown.

Liberal bail laws !! - once again you surpass yourself - the average bail put on the red shirts was 1 Million Baht.....

Since Yingluck was sworn in as Thailand’s 28th prime minister, her party has made securing the release of 132 Red Shirts from various prisons throughout the country a priority. Jarupong Reaungsuwan, Pheu Thai Secretary, views such action as instrumental in putting the country on the road to national reconciliation.

From early August on, more than 40 Red Shirts – mostly detained on charges of terrorism – have been successfully bailed out by Pheu Thai MPs. More are in the process of being released.

Bailing out supporters was never an official job description for MPs – at least until now. Even previously, only the very top Red Shirt leaders, some of whom were also Pheu Thai members, were rescued. Unlike attending weddings or funerals, securing Red Shirts’ release from jail comes at a much higher cost. Pheu Thai Ubon Ratchathani MP, Vorasit Kalthinand, has used his title deed – worth 16 million baht – as well as salaries and political positions of 9 other MPs from southern Isarn, to get bail for 4 Red Shirts who were sentenced to 33 years in prison for (allegedly) torching Ubon City Hall.Other MPs have spent a minimum of 1 million baht to secure freedom for each Red Shirt in jail.

http://asiapacific.a...the-red-shirts/

Arsonists and murderers are allowed bail, in some cases paid by the government, with no collateral input from offenders. You think that is NOT liberal?

[hellodolly]

Are you not confident that state impunity will end?

I have no confidence. But we can't just sit idly and do nothing. We hope that if we do not accept [state impunity] then it will be shaken. What we are doing is to challenge the culture of impunity.

Bravo, well said, why not start with the current incumbents and work outwards, it'll be easier. And much more productive.

You beat me to it. I wonder what she calls red shirts having nothing to do with it or Thaksin not testifying. The committee is obviously made up of red shits fans and PT fans.

Did she even try to explain how a unarmed civilian can knowingly reside in a war zone beside a man caring a rifle to shoot at the army and call them innocent.

The whole world saw it and she talks about it all being the Governments fault. She gives new meaning to the word impunity.

Unfortunately for you and more importantly the red shirts she probably has a far better understanding of the word impunity than you do.

Whereas red shirt supporters have been behind bars for at least two years and some with many more years to go, the government members of CRES and the military / security forces are protected from prosecution by the Emergency Decree.

That my friend is impunity

You know what impunity means

Well now you know what I mean by saying she gives a new meaning to it.

As usually you overlook the red shirt leaders who are protected by being in parliament or the cabinet. And so what if Red shirts have been in jail for two years. That is justice a far cry from impunity. What cuntry are you from that allows them to take over the heart of the capital and defend themselves from being moved out with guns and rocket launches.

It is a simple question needing only two words and in many cases one word. I await your answer. But I sure as heck am not going to hold my breath.

On the other hand you might say Thailand is the only one. And that is only one word.

[hellodolly]

I take it you agree with me.

You are trying to change the subject by saying I question your intelligence. The truth is I said You may not have the sharpest mind in the world. Are you disagreeing with that.

As for calling you a red shirt I apologize. For all I know you may well be a member in good standing of the PT party. All your posts fit either category. And the Idea that a Mod would reprimand me for saying the truth is a possibility.

But only if it is a demeaning statement. Do you feel that posting you could be either one of those is demeaning. If so you might just want to rewrite your posts.

Now that I have cleared up those two points would you like to comment on the other points I brought up. Heck I even agreed that soldiers shot civilians and that Thaksin did nothing wrong in funding them up to a point.

Take what you want.

"Not that any other red shit has shown a bit of remorse for the loss of the really honest citizens. You are all alike."

Nice try but I have brought the subject up many times about the innocent people being deprived of there livelihoods.

I am not proud of it but I was a red shirt supporter until they started pouring blood all over the gates. At that point I realized they were not who they wanted people to believe they were and had no intentions of being peaceful.

I asked you some questions that a red shirt or PT would not admit to so therefore they would have no answer. You have not answered any of them.

Can you explain the similarity? Or better still give us some honest answers.

[hellodolly]

This is a mess. I don't see how anyone can take either side absent being swayed by passion, prejudice and partisanship. If you condemn Thaksin at least be consistent and condemn Abhisit. Both are frickin low life criminals.

Any chance of explaining how one man uses his wealth to try to unseat a government with weapons. And the other does his job to protect the citizens he was elected to protect. What would you have done if you had been in his place and the police refused to do their duty?

Would you have said O your are right take the rest of the city and then you can have any other city you want I won't interfere.

[ttelise]

This is a mess. I don't see how anyone can take either side absent being swayed by passion, prejudice and partisanship. If you condemn Thaksin at least be consistent and condemn Abhisit. Both are frickin low life criminals.

Any chance of explaining how one man uses his wealth to try to unseat a government with weapons. And the other does his job to protect the citizens he was elected to protect. What would you have done if you had been in his place and the police refused to do their duty?

Would you have said O your are right take the rest of the city and then you can have any other city you want I won't interfere.

Like when PAD took over TV station and a couple of International airports. Your attitude keeps country going backwards although I know you will never agree, try to rationalize and just condemn what you don't agree with blinding you to what you endorse in the process of hating.

[philw]

This is not the first time that the army has shot at unarmed demonstrators - why do you find it difficult to believe?

True, but in 2009 and 2010 the demonstrators came prepared and did a turkey shoot on the army in the name of one man and his criminal empire!

The sovereignty of Thailand was under attack and the army eventually, according to many too late, responded!

Let's rephrase your post: the 'unarmed and peaceful' protesters opened fire on the army and try to frame the then sitting PM.

A "turkey shoot on the army "

Some turkey, some shoot.

What " criminal empire" ??

And exactly how was the sovereignty of Thailand under attack ??

Thai people were addressing Thai problems in a Thai way.

I don't like what happened any more than you do, by the way.