Testing Service Chief Wants Bad Students To Repeat Grades: Thailand

[webfact]

Testing service chief wants bad students to repeat grades

Chuleeporn Aramnet

The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Academically-poor students may be required to repeat their class, if the chairman of National Institute of Educational Testing Service (NIETS) can push his idea ahead.

Speaking at a recent academic seminar, Prof Dr Somwang Pitiyanuwat called for the review of the policy that allowed students to move to the next educational level automatically.

Under the current system, even though students have to pass exams, they will get extra courses and sit the re-exams when they fail. Re-exams will be held again and again until they pass.

"The quality of students has clearly dropped (since the current system was introduced)," Somwang said.

According to him, Thailand first started its national tests in 1935. However, in the face of complaints that many students failed the tests, relevant authorities began dismantling the national-test system in 1974. The system was completely gone in 1978 around the time the policy to let students move to the higher educational level automatically sprang into operation.

In the PISA (Programme for International Student Assessment) 2009, Thai children's reading scores stood at just 421, math scores at 419 and science scores at 425.

"Thai children's scores in PISA have repeatedly fallen below the average," Somwang pointed out.

He said Thai children, so far, had demonstrated that they were good at expressing their opinions. However, he said the expression was not always on the principle or did not carry any real substance.

"So, I am worried about Thailand's democracy," Somwang said.

He applauded Education Minister Suchart Tadathamrongvej's move to place more importance on the national tests, allowing them to account for 20 per cent of scores used to determine whether students should graduate from Mathayom 3 and Mathayom 6.

"We hope the weight of national tests will come to about 50 per cent in the future," he said.

Somwang also called for the legislation of the National Testing and Assessment Act, which he said would be the legal tool to stabilise the national testing and assessment.

"Everything then won't depend on just the policies of the government and the education minister," he said.

NIETS has organised many national educational tests, including the ordinary national educational tests (Onet).

-- The Nation 2012-09-05

[chiangmaikelly]

"He said Thai children, so far, had demonstrated that they were good at expressing their opinions. However, he said the expression was not always on the principle or did not carry any real substance.

So, I am worried about Thailand's democracy," Somwang said."

This guy is great. He says, ""The quality of students has clearly dropped."

He says the test system was changed in 1974. A lot of changes in 1974.

[TheWalkingMan]

He said Thai children, so far, had demonstrated that they were good at expressing their opinions. However, he said the expression was not always on the principle or did not carry any real substance.

Sounds like this guy sat in on many arguments/discussions some of the gentlemen here had with their Thai partner.

[chiangmaikelly]

Sounds like this guy sat in on many arguments/discussions some of the gentlemen here had with their Thai partner.

The guy is brilliant he should be a marriage counsler or politician or something. Or at least in the news forum!

Edited September 5, 2012 by chiangmaikelly

[anon467367354]

I had never seen a system where students clearly fail at their studies but get passed on to the next grade so as not to embarrass the parents until coming to Thailand. This will never happen, especially in the schools where parents pay tea monies to buy their kids a pseudo education.

[duncanm]

Could be another way to extract Tea money, so you never know.

[harrry]

To be fair in 1974 few students went to the higher grades. Most left school in bor 6 and many did not even go. Now 99% of the kids go through to higher education.l

[culicine]

To be fair in 1974 few students went to the higher grades. Most left school in bor 6 and many did not even go. Now 99% of the kids go through to higher education.l

And some of them leaned precious little during their formal education too....In the current system everyone passes, so the quality of graduating students has decreased. I've noticed a significant decline in performance over the last 10 years of teaching here.

[chiangmaikelly]

To be fair in 1974 few students went to the higher grades. Most left school in bor 6 and many did not even go. Now 99% of the kids go through to higher education.l

And some of them leaned precious little during their formal education too....In the current system everyone passes, so the quality of graduating students has decreased. I've noticed a significant decline in performance over the last 10 years of teaching here.

How about dance? I've been here a long time and the dancing seems to have gotten better.

[Dr Robert]

Time to take stock of the notion that high stakes testing does not work, at all, ever, anywhere; never has. Children learn at different rates and are at different rates of readiness to learn, especially in the early years. More effective is formative assessment which is consistent, ongoing and forms the basis of progression. Holding students back has a very negative effect on their self-esteem and their social development. In my humble opinion, supported by current research, it is not a wise idea Aj. Samwang.

Perhaps it may be better to resource institutions to train teachers to be more effective teachers in every school at all times –maybe hold back automatic salary increases for teachers until their students can pass whatever tests are forced upon them. Doing an examination is not a measure of intellectual ability; it is only a test of memory.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Scott

[chiangmaikelly]

Time to take stock of the notion that high stakes testing does not work, at all, ever, anywhere; never has. Children learn at different rates and are at different rates of readiness to learn, especially in the early years. More effective is formative assessment which is consistent, ongoing and forms the basis of progression. Holding students back has a very negative effect on their self-esteem and their social development. In my humble opinion, supported by current research, it is not a wise idea Aj. Samwang.

Perhaps it may be better to resource institutions to train teachers to be more effective teachers in every school at all times –maybe hold back automatic salary increases for teachers until their students can pass whatever tests are forced upon them. Doing an examination is not a measure of intellectual ability; it is only a test of memory.

Dr I don't know who you are but you make a lot of sense. Would you apply the same standards to doctors like brain surgeons or for pilots of jet airliners?

Edited September 5, 2012 by Scott

[Dr Robert]

Time to take stock of the notion that high stakes testing does not work, at all, ever, anywhere; never has. Children learn at different rates and are at different rates of readiness to learn, especially in the early years. More effective is formative assessment which is consistent, ongoing and forms the basis of progression. Holding students back has a very negative effect on their self-esteem and their social development. In my humble opinion, supported by current research, it is not a wise idea Aj. Samwang.

Perhaps it may be better to resource institutions to train teachers to be more effective teachers in every school at all times –maybe hold back automatic salary increases for teachers until their students can pass whatever tests are forced upon them. Doing an examination is not a measure of intellectual ability; it is only a test of memory.

Dr I don't know who you are but you make a lot of sense. Would you apply the same standards to doctors like brain surgeons or for pilots of jet airliners?

Thanks for the kind words. I think the analogy to training pilots and surgeons breaks down because they have experience, a great deal of training and enormous responsibilities including reflex life and death decisions to make. High stakes testing makes sense with these people because we need them to have good working knowledge in their field. When you are talking about educating children, they need to be developed over time in all of these things at school With nurturing, and understanding and care they may become the pilots and doctors who keep us safe.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Scott

[Thaddeus]

How many times would a child be expected to repeat a failed grade, I suspect some would die of old age in the classroom.

I failed a couple of 'O' Levels in school, one of them spectacularly, as I either detested the subject or just really couldn't do it. It didn't stop me from moving on to the next level with the subjects that I could do.

Are Thai children expected to get a pass mark on every subject they take?........ serious question.

[chiangmaikelly]

Time to take stock of the notion that high stakes testing does not work, at all, ever, anywhere; never has. Children learn at different rates and are at different rates of readiness to learn, especially in the early years. More effective is formative assessment which is consistent, ongoing and forms the basis of progression. Holding students back has a very negative effect on their self-esteem and their social development. In my humble opinion, supported by current research, it is not a wise idea Aj. Samwang.

Perhaps it may be better to resource institutions to train teachers to be more effective teachers in every school at all times –maybe hold back automatic salary increases for teachers until their students can pass whatever tests are forced upon them. Doing an examination is not a measure of intellectual ability; it is only a test of memory.

Dr I don't know who you are but you make a lot of sense. Would you apply the same standards to doctors like brain surgeons or for pilots of jet airliners?

Thanks for the kind words. I think the analogy to training pilots and surgeons breaks down because they have experience, a great deal of training and enormous responsibilities including reflex life and death decisions to make. High stakes testing makes sense with these people because we need them to have good working knowledge in their field. When you are talking about educating children, they need to be developed over time in all of these things at school With nurturing, and understanding and care they may become the pilots and doctors who keep us safe.

At what year during the childrens education do they become people who keep us safe? It has to be before they fly or before they start cutting. So what year? 1st year of college? All of a sudden life changes. No more pass free. Now it is 100% business eh? Since doctors start medical school here before college is that when the change should occur? Or would it be better if it started in 1st grade so they would be used to it by the time it got serious?

Edited September 5, 2012 by Scott

[Dr Robert]

Chiangmaikelly I think you are making a making a leap of logic to a conclusion that was neither intended nor supportable.If I started testing you as a pilot in your first year of formal schooling I wouldnt expect you to graduate with wings any time soon.Knowledge builds on knowledge and is subordinate to readiness to process that knowledge. Testing needs to be done for sure-just not high stakes testing which means a student must be held back. Sometimes failure is the catalyst for growth-just look at the forum posts from our esteemed colleagues for evidence!

[Dr Robert]

How many times would a child be expected to repeat a failed grade, I suspect some would die of old age in the classroom.

I failed a couple of 'O' Levels in school, one of them spectacularly, as I either detested the subject or just really couldn't do it. It didn't stop me from moving on to the next level with the subjects that I could do.

Are Thai children expected to get a pass mark on every subject they take?........ serious question.

Its a seriously good question-if we set a passmark at 50% does that mean a student has only learned 50% of the program? And does that mean they fail 50% of the program? So just what is assessment and measurement, philosophically and practically-what does it measure? So how do we know just what was learned in the classroom?-could it be that what the teacher teaches and what the test is testing are incompatible? And if this is so, is it fair to hold back a student for "failing" when it is in effect a teacher problem? Perhaps the focus needs to come back on the educators?

[KhaoNiaw]

I'm from the UK and back in my day (45 now), as I remember it, kids were hardly ever kept down a year. As Thaddeus said, there could be subjects you did badly in but you just kept moving up with everyone else. If you were that bad at anything, the school just didn't put you in for the O-levels when the time came. I don't know if it works the same way now.

[chiangmaikelly]

Chiangmaikelly I think you are making a making a leap of logic to a conclusion that was neither intended nor supportable.If I started testing you as a pilot in your first year of formal schooling I wouldnt expect you to graduate with wings any time soon.Knowledge builds on knowledge and is subordinate to readiness to process that knowledge. Testing needs to be done for sure-just not high stakes testing which means a student must be held back. Sometimes failure is the catalyst for growth-just look at the forum posts from our esteemed colleagues for evidence!

You said, " Testing needs to be done for sure-just not high stakes testing which means a student must be held back. Sometimes failure is the catalyst for growth-just look at the forum posts from our esteemed colleagues for evidence!"

Could you explain that a bit more. I got a class of brain surgeons and rocket scientists waiting on the answer.

[Dr Robert]

Chiangmaikelly I think you are making a making a leap of logic to a conclusion that was neither intended nor supportable.If I started testing you as a pilot in your first year of formal schooling I wouldnt expect you to graduate with wings any time soon.Knowledge builds on knowledge and is subordinate to readiness to process that knowledge. Testing needs to be done for sure-just not high stakes testing which means a student must be held back. Sometimes failure is the catalyst for growth-just look at the forum posts from our esteemed colleagues for evidence!

You said, " Testing needs to be done for sure-just not high stakes testing which means a student must be held back. Sometimes failure is the catalyst for growth-just look at the forum posts from our esteemed colleagues for evidence!"

Could you explain that a bit more. I got a class of brain surgeons and rocket scientists waiting on the answer.

Which part dont you understand?

[paulmw]

To be fair in 1974 few students went to the higher grades. Most left school in bor 6 and many did not even go. Now 99% of the kids go through to higher education.l

Then pass (fail) with the golden 50% rule. Yes?

[chiangmaikelly]

Chiangmaikelly I think you are making a making a leap of logic to a conclusion that was neither intended nor supportable.If I started testing you as a pilot in your first year of formal schooling I wouldnt expect you to graduate with wings any time soon.Knowledge builds on knowledge and is subordinate to readiness to process that knowledge. Testing needs to be done for sure-just not high stakes testing which means a student must be held back. Sometimes failure is the catalyst for growth-just look at the forum posts from our esteemed colleagues for evidence!

You said, " Testing needs to be done for sure-just not high stakes testing which means a student must be held back. Sometimes failure is the catalyst for growth-just look at the forum posts from our esteemed colleagues for evidence!"

Could you explain that a bit more. I got a class of brain surgeons and rocket scientists waiting on the answer.

Which part dont you understand?

If you don't hold students back how do the doctors get to do brain surgery and the pilots fly airplanes?

[Scott]

There are a lot of problems with Thailand's education system and with testing. The standardized tests seem to be too difficult and the exams given by the school are often too easy.

Today, I had an unpleasant meeting with the Thai Admin, a teacher and parents (G. 3 student). The parents were in to complain about their child's grades. Last year she had higher grades and this year they are lower--across the border. Of course, this was the teacher's fault. I had printed out a list of all the G. 3 students, showed them the mean, medium and mode of scores. Seems that it was pretty well distributed (with the notable exception of no one failing).

The message was basically "she better get better grades next term". I responded that it is entirely up to her, depending on the quality of her work.

If it were a Thai teacher they would either be forced to change the grade, paid to change the grade or some other pressure applied.

I am not a big fan of testing of students at least at an early age. It's a progression and tests should be designed to help the student and teacher know what has been learned and what hasn't.

[paulmw]

Could be another way to extract Tea money, so you never know.

I don’t think things will change.

The Thai teachers are a powerful body, it would mean they actually had to teach the students to get their grades.

That would never happen, Thai teachers really teaching.

Edited September 5, 2012 by Scott

[Scott]

I have edited a lot of posts because posters are using different sizes on the font. Please use the default font unless you have a specific purpose in doing otherwise.

Usually there simply isn't the time to edit the posts to the correct size and font. The forum netiquette rule states:

Please do not post in all capital letters, bold, unusual fonts, sizes or colors. It can be difficult to read.

[Dr Robert]

Ii think the idea is to progress them forward rather than holding them back, but this depends on good pedagogy and competent monitoring by teachers. its been an interesting thread and stimulating ideas- thankyou

[remobb]

Time to take stock of the notion that high stakes testing does not work, at all, ever, anywhere; never has. Children learn at different rates and are at different rates of readiness to learn, especially in the early years. More effective is formative assessment which is consistent, ongoing and forms the basis of progression. Holding students back has a very negative effect on their self-esteem and their social development. In my humble opinion, supported by current research, it is not a wise idea Aj. Samwang.

Perhaps it may be better to resource institutions to train teachers to be more effective teachers in every school at all times –maybe hold back automatic salary increases for teachers until their students can pass whatever tests are forced upon them. Doing an examination is not a measure of intellectual ability; it is only a test of memory.

I agree with most of your comment, however:

Why insist on more training for the teachers? In my experience teachers are told what to teach, how to teach it and make sure it looks beautiful and students complete their books. Teachers have very little say in how they teach. Many teachers are frustrated that they cannot teach effectively due to their administration / boss directives. They must move on whether their students understand or not. Train the administration or let teachers teach how they should teach instead of dictating what and how.

[paulmw]

There are a lot of problems with Thailand's education system and with testing. The standardized tests seem to be too difficult and the exams given by the school are often too easy.

Today, I had an unpleasant meeting with the Thai Admin, a teacher and parents (G. 3 student). The parents were in to complain about their child's grades. Last year she had higher grades and this year they are lower--across the border. Of course, this was the teacher's fault. I had printed out a list of all the G. 3 students, showed them the mean, medium and mode of scores. Seems that it was pretty well distributed (with the notable exception of no one failing).

The message was basically "she better get better grades next term". I responded that it is entirely up to her, depending on the quality of her work.

intelligent and interesting post ty

If it were a Thai teacher they would either be forced to change the grade, paid to change the grade or some other pressure applied.

I am not a big fan of testing of students at least at an early age. It's a progression and tests should be designed to help the student and teacher know what has been learned and what hasn't.

For Scotts Post, I’m not being sarcastic Scott.

I guess your job will be up for grabs for the next educational year, for not towing the Thai teacher line everyone gets 50%.

Seen it happen to many a good teacher, don’t pass them look for a new job.

[Dr Robert]

Time to take stock of the notion that high stakes testing does not work, at all, ever, anywhere; never has. Children learn at different rates and are at different rates of readiness to learn, especially in the early years. More effective is formative assessment which is consistent, ongoing and forms the basis of progression. Holding students back has a very negative effect on their self-esteem and their social development. In my humble opinion, supported by current research, it is not a wise idea Aj. Samwang.

Perhaps it may be better to resource institutions to train teachers to be more effective teachers in every school at all times –maybe hold back automatic salary increases for teachers until their students can pass whatever tests are forced upon them. Doing an examination is not a measure of intellectual ability; it is only a test of memory.

I agree with most of your comment, however:

Why insist on more training for the teachers? In my experience teachers are told what to teach, how to teach it and make sure it looks beautiful and students complete their books. Teachers have very little say in how they teach. Many teachers are frustrated that they cannot teach effectively due to their administration / boss directives. They must move on whether their students understand or not. Train the administration or let teachers teach how they should teach instead of dictating what and how.

sad reality, yes you are right and I wish it wasnt so. train admin is a really top idea, thanks for yor comments

[mike123ca]

Ii think the idea is to progress them forward rather than holding them back, but this depends on good pedagogy and competent monitoring by teachers. its been an interesting thread and stimulating ideas- thankyou

Let's see

I have 19 classes a week with 50 students in each class. Only 950 students (@30,000 baht a month that's 31.57 Baht per student each month)

The only real monitoring will be keeping an eye on the trouble makers. Nice idea, but I'm already overwhelmed.

[culicine]

To be fair in 1974 few students went to the higher grades. Most left school in bor 6 and many did not even go. Now 99% of the kids go through to higher education.l

And some of them leaned precious little during their formal education too....In the current system everyone passes, so the quality of graduating students has decreased. I've noticed a significant decline in performance over the last 10 years of teaching here.

How about dance? I've been here a long time and the dancing seems to have gotten better.

Don't start me on "dance"....it's quite amusing to watch the M6 boys learn 'dance' as it's one of their required subjects, in my school at least. Surely by m4 students should be able to focus on a set few subjects? My high school students do up to 17 exams (4 times a year!!) It's just a ridiculous system.