Drainage Capacity 'three Times Higher Than Last Year' In West Bangkok: Flood Test

[webfact]

FLOOD TEST

Drainage capacity 'three times higher than last year' in west Bangkok

THE NATION

Members of the public observe the drainage test yesterday at Western Bangkok

Plodprasob says results 'satisfactory' but more work to be done to sort out shortcomings

BANGKOK: -- Yesterday's test of the efficiency of canals in draining flood water from western Bangkok ran smoothly, according to the National Water Resources and Flood Policy Committee (NWFPC).

Meanwhile, more than 1,000 rai of paddy field in the "rice bowl" province of Ayutthaya was flooded yesterday when the water level in the Chao Phraya River rose by one metre, possibly as a result of the water drainage test.

"The results of the test were satisfactory," said Science and Technology Minister Plodprasob Surassawadee, who chairs the NWFPC.

The NWFPC started the country's first ever drainage test in western Bangkok at 2pm. For the next four hours water was released from Mahasawas Canal into Thawee Wattana Canal and coursed through Phasi Charoen Canal before flowing into Bang Waek and out through Phraya Ratchamontri Canal and the Tha Chin River.

The capacity of canals in western Bangkok was found to be three times higher than last year. The test goal of 7 cubic metres per second of flow was surpassed, with capacity reaching as high as 20 cubic metres per second.

As a result, the committee will be able to increase drainage in the canals from 12 to 13 cubic metres per second in the event of flooding.

"This water-drainage test was aimed at evaluating the minimum capacity of the canals to drain water," said Plodprasob.

Places where the canals narrow and get shallow were identified as weak points for drainage. Also noted yesterday were constructions such as small bridges that hindered the flow of water.

"We will discuss the test result and seek to improve the model to solve flood problems," Plodprasob said.

Royol Chitradon, director of the Hydro and Agro Informatics Institute (HAII) and a member of NWFPC, said there was no overflow of water into communities near the canals during the drainage test. The water level in the tested canal had risen by only 4 to 5 centimetres. " We were able to control the situation," he said.

"We are confident that the another drainage test this Friday will go well."

Royol also denied reports that the flooding in Ayutthaya resulted from the test. "The Ayutthaya flood was the result of heavy rain. The areas under water are not on the test's route," he said.

Engineering Institute of Thailand water expert Suwat Jittaladakorn said the drainage tests were ineffective because they involved the release of too small an amount of water.

Local residents crowded the Thawee Wattana canal side to observe the drainage test. Many of them said they had no worries about their homes being flooded as they trusted the government would ensure safety in running the tests. However, they wanted the authorities to clear rubbish and sandbags blocking the drains in the area.

-- The Nation 2012-09-06

[LuckyLew]

it is actually four times larger is you count the poor farmers in Ayyathuya farm land

[Thai at Heart]

The capacity of canals in western Bangkok was found to be three times higher than last year. The test goal of 7 cubic metres per second of flow was surpassed, with capacity reaching as high as 20 cubic metres per second.

As a result, the committee will be able to increase drainage in the canals from 12 to 13 cubic metres per second in the event of

Please someone explain this to me?

We aimed for 7, got 20 so, 20 minus 7 makes 13?

[ResX]

Sorry, I cannot get it. Last year's flood was about spillover of Chao Phraya due to excessive discharge by greater than 1000cubic meter/s. Why the flood management authorities took all that troubles just to prove the canal could take 14cubic meter/s more water? How much such improvement can contribute to flood mitigation and control?

[MaxLee]

At least Ayutthaya and some other "unimportant provinces" are gonna be sacrificed to add to the additional percentage in capacity????

[ResX]

At least Ayutthaya and some other "unimportant provinces" are gonna be sacrificed to add to the additional percentage in capacity????

If the recent Ayuttthaya flood has something to do with the test, too bad for Thailand. Your important mission has not been assigned to the best among you. I'm pretty sure about it.

[hellodolly]

Sounds like a test on how dry they can keep Bangkok by flooding the rest of Thailand.

What kind of a result will they get if it rains for days on end not just 4 hours.

[MaxLee]

At least Ayutthaya and some other "unimportant provinces" are gonna be sacrificed to add to the additional percentage in capacity????

If the recent Ayuttthaya flood has something to do with the test, too bad for Thailand. Your important mission has not been assigned to the best among you. I'm pretty sure about it.

Do you really think the government gives a dam_n about the other provinces except Bangkok. The Government sh***loads on the other provinces, the very provinces that provides them with the agricultural nutrition that Bangkokians eat in daily life This will hurt them big time in the long run, if the other provinces get flooded every year, given the Global warming acceleration worldwide... No rice, no fruit plantations, ... no agriculture grown foods... if that happens Bangkok is gonna run out of supplies and the ones so high status Bangkok people who looked down on the Villagers are gonna cry like babies

[chrisinth]

Sounds like a test on how dry they can keep Bangkok by flooding the rest of Thailand.

What kind of a result will they get if it rains for days on end not just 4 hours.

Looks like that is on its way. According to the predicted weather most of the provences in the central/north divide area have had high rainfall warnings issued from the 5th until the 7th of this month.

[Thaddeus]

This is Thailand, the land where everything is bigger, better, faster, stronger, louder.

Until it is really tested, then it tends to be much quieter.

[chrisinth]

As I understand it this was a test on only one canal system (?) with other partial tests planned for the future.

Are they going to be confident enough to release water to test the entire system or are they going to rely on partial data? They have identified weak points already in their 'model' yesterday, which is good as long as these are rectified, but have they been identified soon enough before the traditional 'heavier' rains expected for this month and October?

And again, how will these 'improved' water barriers and drainage systems affect the provences up-country before Bkk? This to me is the biggest question that needs to be clarified or proven.

[pointoffew]

The capacity of canals in western Bangkok was found to be three times higher than last year. The test goal of 7 cubic metres per second of flow was surpassed, with capacity reaching as high as 20 cubic metres per second.

As a result, the committee will be able to increase drainage in the canals from 12 to 13 cubic metres per second in the event of

Please someone explain this to me?

We aimed for 7, got 20 so, 20 minus 7 makes 13?

I guess it's an example of poor English and guess they mean:

"As a result, the committee will be able to increase drainage in the canals by (with) 12 to 13 cubic metres per second in the event of..."

[BlueSkyCowboy]

At least Ayutthaya and some other "unimportant provinces" are gonna be sacrificed to add to the additional percentage in capacity????

If the recent Ayuttthaya flood has something to do with the test, too bad for Thailand. Your important mission has not been assigned to the best among you. I'm pretty sure about it.

Do you really think the government gives a dam_n about the other provinces except Bangkok. The Government sh***loads on the other provinces, the very provinces that provides them with the agricultural nutrition that Bangkokians eat in daily life This will hurt them big time in the long run, if the other provinces get flooded every year, given the Global warming acceleration worldwide... No rice, no fruit plantations, ... no agriculture grown foods... if that happens Bangkok is gonna run out of supplies and the ones so high status Bangkok people who looked down on the Villagers are gonna cry like babies

It will not flood my rubber and fruit trees In Issan. God help the poor folks in the low lands.

[webfact]

Bangkok flood drainage tests satisfying

BANGKOK, 6 September 2010 (NNT) – Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra has indicated the government’s flood drainage test on the western side of Bangkok yesterday produced a better-than-expected result.

Speaking to the press, the Prime Minister said the machines that were introduced to help push excessive canal water to the Gulf of Thailand really strengthened the efficiency of the draining system and would thus be used again in the second test to be conducted on Friday (7 September) on the eastern side of Bangkok.

Meanwhile, Mr. Royol Chitradon, the Director of the Hydro and Agro Informatics Institute and member of the government Strategic Committee for Water Resource Management (SCWRM), also expressed satisfaction over the result of yesterday’s flood drainage test, saying watergates along the canals in the test zone worked smoothly, enabling officials involved to maintain the level of water at every risk point. He mentioned that the water driving system along Thawi Watthana Canal had worked with great efficiency.

Minister of Science and Technology Plodprasop Suraswadi, in his capacity as chairman of the Water and Flood Management Committee, said that he was also pleased with the drainage test which went well despite rainfalls. He said the test showed the flood release system along Thawi Watthana Canal still needs some adjustments as flood embankments on both canal banks could subside unless future dredging of the canal to allow greater flow of water is done properly with support to the riverbed and banks. The minister said he was confident that with successful flood drainage tests on both sides of Bangkok, the capital will be definitely saved from floods.

-- NNT 2012-09-06

[MaxLee]

Yeah satisfying, but only because it served the purpose of "protecting Bangkok while the rest of the Nation provinces are gonna suffer bigger time"…

[dcutman]

The capacity of canals in western Bangkok was found to be three times higher than last year. The test goal of 7 cubic metres per second of flow was surpassed, with capacity reaching as high as 20 cubic metres per second.

As a result, the committee will be able to increase drainage in the canals from 12 to 13 cubic metres per second in the event of

Please someone explain this to me?

We aimed for 7, got 20 so, 20 minus 7 makes 13?

There has got to be a typo in these numbers. 7, 13, 20cubes per second that is nothing when talking about a drainage canal. I assume it is the one we are talking about is the one in the picture. Edited September 6, 2012 by dcutman

[h90]

The capacity of canals in western Bangkok was found to be three times higher than last year. The test goal of 7 cubic metres per second of flow was surpassed, with capacity reaching as high as 20 cubic metres per second.

As a result, the committee will be able to increase drainage in the canals from 12 to 13 cubic metres per second in the event of

Please someone explain this to me?

We aimed for 7, got 20 so, 20 minus 7 makes 13?

They thought the test is at 30% of the capacity.

They planned that it can do 20. So they tested at 7. They test went better (lower levels) than they thought so in case of emergency they can feed 13 more (33).

That seems to be the only logical explanation of the confusing informations. But maybe I am wrong applying any logic....

[h90]

Sorry, I cannot get it. Last year's flood was about spillover of Chao Phraya due to excessive discharge by greater than 1000cubic meter/s. Why the flood management authorities took all that troubles just to prove the canal could take 14cubic meter/s more water? How much such improvement can contribute to flood mitigation and control?

On the last flood the Chao Phraya was most of the time not on his maximum limit, but we were 1 month at 1.7 meter water as Mahasawat and Thaveewattana canal couldn't take the water. That Chao Phraya could take more does not help if we can't bring the water to the Chao Phraya.

[dude007]

Hold on, hold on for a while, we are getting deliberately confused by thes optimistic figures that the water drainage capacity in the BKK canals will be 3 times higher than before the dredging (and hence the flood problems are finally solved)...

Now, what I have learned at the university in hydraulics is that discharges are calculated in function of the following:

• velocity of the water flow
  
• inclination or fall (in relation to the velocity) of the river/canal
  
• river/canal wet section (under water)
  
• roughness of the banks and obstacles in the flood way.
  

By dredging, only the river wet sections have been increased say by 10-15%. The silly idea of river boats pushing the water downstream is as ridiculous as it can be. There will be as much back-flow as there will be positive flow (observe the water at the river bank when a ship passes by). Even a young student with government tablet computer can find it out.

Now, if the discharge increases 3 times, then we have to conclude that either the velocity has increased three times (which is not true) or that the river section has increased three times due to dredging... Can you follow? Waht a big load of pretentious stories!

But now it comes: when the Chao Phraya has flood discharges of 3,000 m3/sec there will be minor damage. When 4,000 m3/sec, there is already severe flooding. The big dams upstream (Bhumibol and Sirikit) can discharge together up to 2,300 -2,500 m3/sec on top of the 4,000 m3/sec already in the river due to rainfall in the central plains and then we have disasters like in 1995 and 2006 and for sure 2011.

So it is said that three times increase of the discharge in the Bangkok canals (3 x 17 m3/sec) = 41 m3/sec will solve the problem of 4,000 + 2,300 a 2,500 m3/sec flood waters coming down the river (natural discharge and big dam water release)... Is this Minister Plodprasob still on track and of the opinion that he has solved the problem? With all due respect but this kind of games is uselss and does not address in any way the real flooding problem. Populism at its best!

[dude007]

Yeah satisfying, but only because it served the purpose of "protecting Bangkok while the rest of the Nation provinces are gonna suffer bigger time"…

Correct because this is only a populist game that does not address the real problem. This drainage of the BKK canals is PT-window dressing and peanuts to what really has to be addressed in terms of discharge.

[ResX]

Sorry, I cannot get it. Last year's flood was about spillover of Chao Phraya due to excessive discharge by greater than 1000cubic meter/s. Why the flood management authorities took all that troubles just to prove the canal could take 14cubic meter/s more water? How much such improvement can contribute to flood mitigation and control?

On the last flood the Chao Phraya was most of the time not on his maximum limit, but we were 1 month at 1.7 meter water as Mahasawat and Thaveewattana canal couldn't take the water. That Chao Phraya could take more does not help if we can't bring the water to the Chao Phraya.

Thank you. One more question for clarification. How come 20 cubic m/s of flood discharge can cause the masive 15-20 billion cubic meters of water body as per Bankok Pundit? As we were told the major problem with the 2011 flood is the massive 15-20billion cubic meters of water body.

[Thai at Heart]

Looking at the picture, maybe they didn't put any extra water in at all, just added some boats to push the water 3 metres behind the boats, and on this basis they conclude that the water flow has increased.

If only I was 100% sure that this wasn't the case.

[MaxLee]

Btw have you heard the latest news that there are traffic jams all over Banfkok, and some kick-a**** accidents???

There are also severe minor floods somewhere in Pechaburi somewhere, check the other news on thaivisa,...

I told you, September and October are gonna be really extremely careful to watch out for, as we're not gonna get flooded by Mother nature, but by the government's incompetent flood canal testing as well

[ResX]

Yeah satisfying, but only because it served the purpose of "protecting Bangkok while the rest of the Nation provinces are gonna suffer bigger time"…

Correct because this is only a populist game that does not address the real problem. This drainage of the BKK canals is PT-window dressing and peanuts to what really has to be addressed in terms of discharge.

I thought I wanted to write the same thing as you do. But I opted to speculate that they wanted to draw down the dams just upstream. As I can see they actually over drawn the dams in the north to a point that the dams downstreams had no oppurtunity to make huge releases. The testing may serve as the camourflage only. The real intention is to draw down dams just upstream.

As you know speculation is always speculation. It can be right and it can be wrong. I don't know for sure. But based on the way the test is carried out I think my speculation is not baseless.

[Thai at Heart]

Btw have you heard the latest news that there are traffic jams all over Banfkok, and some kick-a**** accidents???

There are also severe minor floods somewhere in Pechaburi somewhere, check the other news on thaivisa,...

I told you, September and October are gonna be really extremely careful to watch out for, as we're not gonna get flooded by Mother nature, but by the government's incompetent flood canal testing as well

Well, that isn't going to come from the dams. Heavy rain is heavy rain, not much else to be said for it.

[h90]

Sorry, I cannot get it. Last year's flood was about spillover of Chao Phraya due to excessive discharge by greater than 1000cubic meter/s. Why the flood management authorities took all that troubles just to prove the canal could take 14cubic meter/s more water? How much such improvement can contribute to flood mitigation and control?

On the last flood the Chao Phraya was most of the time not on his maximum limit, but we were 1 month at 1.7 meter water as Mahasawat and Thaveewattana canal couldn't take the water. That Chao Phraya could take more does not help if we can't bring the water to the Chao Phraya.

Thank you. One more question for clarification. How come 20 cubic m/s of flood discharge can cause the masive 15-20 billion cubic meters of water body as per Bankok Pundit? As we were told the major problem with the 2011 flood is the massive 15-20billion cubic meters of water body.

No it can't cause it. To get that you need many month, of complete wrong actions and water management and a lot rain. But good working canals can LOCALLY help, last year it would have reduced the water height and length of flood, it wouldn't have prevented it.

[ResX]

Sorry, I cannot get it. Last year's flood was about spillover of Chao Phraya due to excessive discharge by greater than 1000cubic meter/s. Why the flood management authorities took all that troubles just to prove the canal could take 14cubic meter/s more water? How much such improvement can contribute to flood mitigation and control?

On the last flood the Chao Phraya was most of the time not on his maximum limit, but we were 1 month at 1.7 meter water as Mahasawat and Thaveewattana canal couldn't take the water. That Chao Phraya could take more does not help if we can't bring the water to the Chao Phraya.

Thank you. One more question for clarification. How come 20 cubic m/s of flood discharge can cause the masive 15-20 billion cubic meters of water body as per Bankok Pundit? As we were told the major problem with the 2011 flood is the massive 15-20billion cubic meters of water body.

No it can't cause it. To get that you need many month, of complete wrong actions and water management and a lot rain. But good working canals can LOCALLY help, last year it would have reduced the water height and length of flood, it wouldn't have prevented it.

I get your point for this one. Yes it would help small area. Thank you.

[h90]

Hold on, hold on for a while, we are getting deliberately confused by thes optimistic figures that the water drainage capacity in the BKK canals will be 3 times higher than before the dredging (and hence the flood problems are finally solved)...

Now, what I have learned at the university in hydraulics is that discharges are calculated in function of the following:

• velocity of the water flow
  
• inclination or fall (in relation to the velocity) of the river/canal
  
• river/canal wet section (under water)
  
• roughness of the banks and obstacles in the flood way.
  

By dredging, only the river wet sections have been increased say by 10-15%. The silly idea of river boats pushing the water downstream is as ridiculous as it can be. There will be as much back-flow as there will be positive flow (observe the water at the river bank when a ship passes by). Even a young student with government tablet computer can find it out.

Now, if the discharge increases 3 times, then we have to conclude that either the velocity has increased three times (which is not true) or that the river section has increased three times due to dredging... Can you follow? Waht a big load of pretentious stories!

But now it comes: when the Chao Phraya has flood discharges of 3,000 m3/sec there will be minor damage. When 4,000 m3/sec, there is already severe flooding. The big dams upstream (Bhumibol and Sirikit) can discharge together up to 2,300 -2,500 m3/sec on top of the 4,000 m3/sec already in the river due to rainfall in the central plains and then we have disasters like in 1995 and 2006 and for sure 2011.

So it is said that three times increase of the discharge in the Bangkok canals (3 x 17 m3/sec) = 41 m3/sec will solve the problem of 4,000 + 2,300 a 2,500 m3/sec flood waters coming down the river (natural discharge and big dam water release)... Is this Minister Plodprasob still on track and of the opinion that he has solved the problem? With all due respect but this kind of games is uselss and does not address in any way the real flooding problem. Populism at its best!

you have many figures wrong....a lot canals are almost full with dirt and flowers and buildings it is easy to triple the flow rate and area on these (but I doubt that it was done.

The river boat idea on itself isn't silly at all. Think of a canal and imagine that they would make a massive steel bridge and mount on it full with 300 HP boot engines with deep propeller and let them run full speed. You would put in a lot kinetic energy that really causes higher water level after the engines. Of course you must put a lot energy in and have it over the complete cross/section to prevent back-flow. but it could be made.

these 2 boats on the picture are of course nonsense.

[rubl]

Yeah satisfying, but only because it served the purpose of "protecting Bangkok while the rest of the Nation provinces are gonna suffer bigger time"…

Correct because this is only a populist game that does not address the real problem. This drainage of the BKK canals is PT-window dressing and peanuts to what really has to be addressed in terms of discharge.

I thought I wanted to write the same thing as you do. But I opted to speculate that they wanted to draw down the dams just upstream. As I can see they actually over drawn the dams in the north to a point that the dams downstreams had no oppurtunity to make huge releases. The testing may serve as the camourflage only. The real intention is to draw down dams just upstream.

As you know speculation is always speculation. It can be right and it can be wrong. I don't know for sure. But based on the way the test is carried out I think my speculation is not baseless.

PM Yingluck said the water was from that stored behind dams, MoS&T Plodprasop said it was 'reserved' water , but not from behind the Chai Nai dam. Go figure

[Thai at Heart]

Yeah satisfying, but only because it served the purpose of "protecting Bangkok while the rest of the Nation provinces are gonna suffer bigger time"…

Correct because this is only a populist game that does not address the real problem. This drainage of the BKK canals is PT-window dressing and peanuts to what really has to be addressed in terms of discharge.

I thought I wanted to write the same thing as you do. But I opted to speculate that they wanted to draw down the dams just upstream. As I can see they actually over drawn the dams in the north to a point that the dams downstreams had no oppurtunity to make huge releases. The testing may serve as the camourflage only. The real intention is to draw down dams just upstream.

As you know speculation is always speculation. It can be right and it can be wrong. I don't know for sure. But based on the way the test is carried out I think my speculation is not baseless.

PM Yingluck said the water was from that stored behind dams, MoS&T Plodprasop said it was 'reserved' water , but not from behind the Chai Nai dam. Go figure

Indeed, what reserved water actually means who the hell knows?