Poorly Skilled Drivers And The Law: Thailand

[NangrongJ]

Thai at Heart - you make good and valid comments. The worlds leading road safety countries and known as the SUN countries; Sweden, UK and Netherlands. The successful formula for road safety is the 3 'E's; Education, Engineering and Enforcement. Individually ineffective as the balance between the 3 is dependent on the country. Thailand is weak to non-existent in all 3.

Training is unregulated, testing is subjective and not relevant, engineering- some roads and particularly U-turns encourage risk and as for enforcement, well we all know about that.

[NangrongJ]

Nisa, the rise in motor vehicle does not lead to a rise in vehicle accidents, there's no evidence to support that although it looks good. The rise in vehicles creates congestion which actually lowers incidents.

Thailand is non-compliant for many reasons and the 30 day rule is just one of them. Basically because of the inept method of recording such incidents.

[NangrongJ]

I take Wikipedia with a pinch of salt; it's not recognised as a credible source FACT.

[simple1]

80% of road deaths in Thailand are motorbike related. I have recently visited Vietnam and Malaysia and wearing helmets is very close to the norm, even though both countries have police corruption issues. More than likely discussed elsewhere on this forum, but if Malaysia and Vietnam have such as high level of compliance still do not understand the Thai active resistance to wearing helmets. One matter I have constantly observed is the nearly complete lack of spacial awareness of Thai drivers. Just in the past two days I have seen two motorbike drivers having tailgating accidents.

EDIT: Fortunately neither driver had a young child perched between them and the handlebar

Edited October 15, 2012 by simple1

[Nisa]

Nisa, the rise in motor vehicle does not lead to a rise in vehicle accidents, there's no evidence to support that although it looks good. The rise in vehicles creates congestion which actually lowers incidents.

Thailand is non-compliant for many reasons and the 30 day rule is just one of them. Basically because of the inept method of recording such incidents.

I take Wikipedia with a pinch of salt; it's not recognised as a credible source FACT.

You can check the WHO website to see you are incorrect. You stated road fatalities are not down and this is wrong, You stated Thailand doesn't include deaths within 30 days and this is wrong. You continue to state that WHO doesn't accept Thailand numbers and this is wrong. You want to discount a link I provided even though the website you criticize has been shown to be more accurate than print encyclopedias and the information listed on the site is sourced but more importantly you continue to state things as fact (which are not) without referencing anything to back up your claims while simply discounting any links that show your claims to be false.

Here is a statement from WHO regarding fatalities in Thailand for you to also discount ... http://www.who.int/r...4/en/index.html

And by the way, different countries report fatalities differently but the WHO adjusts them scientifically to reflect fatalities 30 Days after an accident when comparing countries.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Nisa

[NangrongJ]

Nisa-that's churned out regularly and every incoming Prime Minister states road safety will be tackled. If you look in more detail there are only 33 countries listed in the road safety league table and Thailand, the Arabic countries and India and not included for that as well as many other reasons.

Every country in the world is logged but Thailand is still incapable of providing credible statistics and won't allow independent verification.

[Nisa]

80% of road deaths in Thailand are motorbike related. I have recently visited Vietnam and Malaysia and wearing helmets is very close to the norm, even though both countries have police corruption issues. More than likely discussed elsewhere on this forum, but if Malaysia and Vietnam have such as high level of compliance still do not understand the Thai active resistance to wearing helmets. One matter I have constantly observed is the nearly complete lack of spacial awareness of Thai drivers. Just in the past two days I have seen two motorbike drivers having tailgating accidents.

EDIT: Fortunately neither driver had a young child perched between them and the handlebar

Thailand helmet compliance and enforcement has gone up dramatically the last years but you you should consider a few things too. Malaysia has a higher rate of deaths per population than Thailand. Vietnam has less but has much less vehicles and if you look at deaths per vehicles. The below numbers may be a bit outdated http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_traffic-related_death_rate

............................deaths per 100k population ... deaths per 100k vehicles

Malaysia ...............................24.1 .............................36.5

Thailand ...............................19.6 ............................ 118.8

Vietnam ................................16.1 ............................. 1,238.5

I also believe your stats are wrong on 80% ... have to look it up again but I think it is about 65% and believe it closely mirrors the number of bikes registered compared to autos / trucks ... but again would need to look it up and am just going by memory.

and as a side note ...

http://www.thaiwebsites.com/caraccidents.asp

Edited October 15, 2012 by Nisa

[Nisa]

Nisa-that's churned out regularly and every incoming Prime Minister states road safety will be tackled. If you look in more detail there are only 33 countries listed in the road safety league table and Thailand, the Arabic countries and India and not included for that as well as many other reasons.

Every country in the world is logged but Thailand is still incapable of providing credible statistics and won't allow independent verification.

Again - please provide some kind of link as there have been a number showing your claims of WHO not accepting Thailand road fatalities numbers as being incorrect since they regularly publish them. Simply restating and modifying your positing repeatedly doesn't prove anything. You now are talking about a WHO (unless you are now changing the debate) League Table only having 33 countries, certainly you can provide a link to this.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Nisa

[NangrongJ]

Nisa, There's plenty documentation out there and I can dig it out but I have to question your agenda.

We've all read the usual promises about road safety in Thailand but the simple fact of the matter is Thailand has done nothing. Global Road Safety Week came and went without any coverage. Thailand is listed by most foreign offices (uk/eu) as high risk in road safety.

In contrast Cambodia and Vietnam have received grants for initiatives in road safety.

Can you name me one single road safety initiative Thailand has done? Lots of talk but no action.

This was a good start but faded... http://grsp.drupalgardens.com/what-we-do/geography/asia/thailand

[NangrongJ]

Nisa- this is one of many sites - http://tinyurl.com/9yhc7rc

Although it's from New Zealand it's the same template all these countries use as it's provided by WHO.

The new stats will be published in document form next month (about $500) usually every 3 years, it will them go online about 6 months later.

Note that it states ''data for countries that contribute''. All countries contribute and Thailand has indeed done that but refuses independent verification. Until it does it will not be listed and misses out on lots of money.

[Thai at Heart]

http://internationaltransportforum.org/Press/PDFs/2010-09-15IRTAD.pdf

Plenty to chew on in here

[NangrongJ]

This is another interesting one... http://tinyurl.com/d4sz6np

Whilst governments will put out risk factors on travelling such as the Bangkok red/yellow shirts riots and acts of terrorism in other countries, road safety is the biggest risk to the tourist. Of ALL the countries in the world Thailand is 9th from worst; mid you the USA doesn't feature so well either.

In my experience of 38 countries, the Arabic countries (I've been to 10), India and Papua New Guinea are the worst. But that's just personal experience.

[simple1]

@nisa: Looks like you're right, 2011 stats seem to average around 70% deaths by motorbike accidents. I was looking at figures from 2010 that were averaging around 80%.

[FarangTalk]

Nisa, the rise in motor vehicle does not lead to a rise in vehicle accidents, there's no evidence to support that although it looks good. The rise in vehicles creates congestion which actually lowers incidents.

Thailand is non-compliant for many reasons and the 30 day rule is just one of them. Basically because of the inept method of recording such incidents.

I take Wikipedia with a pinch of salt; it's not recognised as a credible source FACT.

You can check the WHO website to see you are incorrect. You stated road fatalities are not down and this is wrong, You stated Thailand doesn't include deaths within 30 days and this is wrong. You continue to state that WHO doesn't accept Thailand numbers and this is wrong. You want to discount a link I provided even though the website you criticize has been shown to be more accurate than print encyclopedias and the information listed on the site is sourced but more importantly you continue to state things as fact (which are not) without referencing anything to back up your claims while simply discounting any links that show your claims to be false.

Here is a statement from WHO regarding fatalities in Thailand for you to also discount ... http://www.who.int/r...4/en/index.html

And by the way, different countries report fatalities differently but the WHO adjusts them scientifically to reflect fatalities 30 Days after an accident when comparing countries.

Not this old chestnut.

You have been proven wrong time and time again on this matter yet still insist on banging on about it.

Thailand records its road fatalities differently and only those that die at the scene of an accident are included.

[NangrongJ]

Really?

Either way you want to look at it Thailand has one of the worst road safety records in the world and worst of all shows no signs of addressing it.

I don't know what's worse, this or the idiots in denial.

[Nisa]

@nisa: Looks like you're right, 2011 stats seem to average around 70% deaths by motorbike accidents. I was looking at figures from 2010 that were averaging around 80%.

Wow, I had no idea it was ever that high in terms of recent years.

[Nisa]

Nisa, There's plenty documentation out there and I can dig it out but I have to question your agenda.

My agend is for you to back up your claims that WHO doesn't recognize Thailand's Road fatalities numbers and that deaths in Thialand are only recorded if died at the scene and that road safety is getting worse in Thailand and I have simply asked you to back up these claims which you have not. On the other hand, I have shown you the trend in road fatalities going down over the years and that WHO does publish the numbers from Thailand and that when a country doesn't count deaths at 30-days (some do less and some do more) that the WHO adjust the numbers for comparrison. I have also provided stats on Thailand's road deaths that clearly state they include people who die up to 30-days from the time of accident.

So, my agenda is simply for you to back up your statements which clearly seem wrong but instead of providing links to things that have nothing to do with your claims.

[Nisa]

Nisa, the rise in motor vehicle does not lead to a rise in vehicle accidents, there's no evidence to support that although it looks good. The rise in vehicles creates congestion which actually lowers incidents.

Thailand is non-compliant for many reasons and the 30 day rule is just one of them. Basically because of the inept method of recording such incidents.

I take Wikipedia with a pinch of salt; it's not recognised as a credible source FACT.

You can check the WHO website to see you are incorrect. You stated road fatalities are not down and this is wrong, You stated Thailand doesn't include deaths within 30 days and this is wrong. You continue to state that WHO doesn't accept Thailand numbers and this is wrong. You want to discount a link I provided even though the website you criticize has been shown to be more accurate than print encyclopedias and the information listed on the site is sourced but more importantly you continue to state things as fact (which are not) without referencing anything to back up your claims while simply discounting any links that show your claims to be false.

Here is a statement from WHO regarding fatalities in Thailand for you to also discount ... http://www.who.int/r...4/en/index.html

And by the way, different countries report fatalities differently but the WHO adjusts them scientifically to reflect fatalities 30 Days after an accident when comparing countries.

Not this old chestnut.

You have been proven wrong time and time again on this matter yet still insist on banging on about it.

Thailand records its road fatalities differently and only those that die at the scene of an accident are included.

Clearly the number from WHO regarding deaths in Thailand do include deaths within 30-days even if Thailand didn't report them that way. Here is a quote right from the WHO website ...

How can countries compare themselves with others?

Comparison between countries is easy because a standard method has been applied to the collection of all information. For example, the report contains an annex of tables showing reported deaths (

adjusted to a definition of death within 30 days of the crash

), number of deaths based on a statistical model, the existence of each of the key laws and perceived enforcement levels, as well as other indicators studied in the report. There are also colour-coded world maps for each of the five risk factors so that countries can easily see how they rank in terms of the extent or "comprehensiveness" of their legislation.

http://www.who.int/v..._status/q_a/en/

Since the numbers comparing countries almost all come from WHO, this whole notion that it is an unfair comparison has once again been proven as an incorrect notion as it has so many times each person states this incorrect issue regarding 30-day reporting.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Nisa

[fstarbkk]

Thai driving technique:

1 - you're the only car on the road

2 - if it doesn't actually stop you, it can be ignored.

3 - carry on regardless

"Thai driving technique" is an oxymoron.... like "military intelligence"

[Scully]

Could i ask whereabouts in Thailand you live Nisa ?.

I am impressed by your optimism however nothing over the years has changed or is changing.

We can all look at statistics or google for and against sites. The reality is when you see accidents practically every day and see nothing being done then that is all the evidence I need.

[NangrongJ]

Nisa there was a road safety audit done September 2011 (I will try and get hold of it). It was done in Thailand by Thais with the help of the uk. All world road safety audits are based upon the uk method.

The link here provides a good insight as to what I've been stating but the key points listed here and that were mention in the audit last year is the lack of credible information from Thailand. The audit could only achieve so much as the information was limited as Thailand accepts this. It's not just the 30 day rule which is standard and not Thailand's lack of compliance but in simple terms it's not possible to adhere to it when there is a serious lack of information. It's not about Thailand refusing to accept it, it's about the WHO requesting evidence and that's not forthcoming. And that's not just restricted to RTA's. Under-reporting is the biggest problem.

I assisted in a case two years ago when an Australian claimed on his insurance when he was knocked over by a Taxi. All seemed well until the insurer was told there was no evidence or records of the said accident despite the police taking details and him spending 4 days in hospital.

The non-compliance is not a deliberate and willful act it's more like incompetence. Add to that the very low level training in accident investigation that the police get.

http://tinyurl.com/c75syn9

[Nisa]

Could i ask whereabouts in Thailand you live Nisa ?.

I am impressed by your optimism however nothing over the years has changed or is changing.

We can all look at statistics or google for and against sites. The reality is when you see accidents practically every day and see nothing being done then that is all the evidence I need.

The reality is that the number of road fatalities continues to trend down in Thailand as it has done for many years right along with the number of deaths per population and the ever increasing number of vehicles and people driving. This is fact that you can complain, be pessimistic or even say things are not improving fast enough but the unmistakable reality is that things are improving and in my opinion improving at realistic rate.

So,your statement that nothing is changing is in fact incorrect.

Edit: I live in Bangkok and have for years. It is where near 50% of all accident in Thailand occur but I would never be so naive to believe that my eyes alone can give me an idea of .number of road fatalities in Thailand and if they are going up or down throughout the years.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Nisa

[Nisa]

Nisa there was a road safety audit done September 2011 (I will try and get hold of it). It was done in Thailand by Thais with the help of the uk. All world road safety audits are based upon the uk method.

The link here provides a good insight as to what I've been stating but the key points listed here and that were mention in the audit last year is the lack of credible information from Thailand. The audit could only achieve so much as the information was limited as Thailand accepts this. It's not just the 30 day rule which is standard and not Thailand's lack of compliance but in simple terms it's not possible to adhere to it when there is a serious lack of information. It's not about Thailand refusing to accept it, it's about the WHO requesting evidence and that's not forthcoming. And that's not just restricted to RTA's. Under-reporting is the biggest problem.

I assisted in a case two years ago when an Australian claimed on his insurance when he was knocked over by a Taxi. All seemed well until the insurer was told there was no evidence or records of the said accident despite the police taking details and him spending 4 days in hospital.

The non-compliance is not a deliberate and willful act it's more like incompetence. Add to that the very low level training in accident investigation that the police get.

http://tinyurl.com/c75syn9

Here is a link of road fatalities over the years that was published by Thailand a number of years ago which clearly states the numbers include deaths happening 30-days of an accident. The number also are the same WHO has published and which WHO also states deaths are counted from 30-days of the accident.

http://www.grspasia.org/pdf/Thailand.pdf

Again, I am simply asking you for links to what you stated in terms of WHO doesn't recognize Thailand's Road fatalities numbers and that deaths in Thialand are only recorded if died at the scene and that road safety is getting worse in Thailand. If you want to debate other issues that is great but lets at least accept these points you made are not factual as I believe I have provided ample links showing you this while I have yet to see one from you backing up your claims.

[NangrongJ]

Nisa Ive seen that, and it is only one of many versions. WHO does not accept any country that does not adhere to the 30 day rule and Thailand has not signed up to that as well as others.

I can put up various documents that are insurance based and insurers require this. That report is only an initiatve it is conflicts with other such reports that have been published in Thailand by Thais.

You could state the same about drink driving and I can show you presentations about seatbelt compliance published by the Thai police but I doubt you would believe it either.

You will not find anything that clearly states that Thailand recognises the 30 day rule although you can present many examples like this one. Thai doctors, insurers and other interested parties have been pressing for it for years. There was something in the Bangkok Post about it (I cut it out) about 4 years ago.

It's not just or only about the 30 day rule it's about doubting the accuracy of the information from Thailand; I would expect you to know that.

[Nisa]

Nisa Ive seen that, and it is only one of many versions. WHO does not accept any country that does not adhere to the 30 day rule and Thailand has not signed up to that as well as others.

I can put up various documents that are insurance based and insurers require this. That report is only an initiatve it is conflicts with other such reports that have been published in Thailand by Thais.

You could state the same about drink driving and I can show you presentations about seatbelt compliance published by the Thai police but I doubt you would believe it either.

You will not find anything that clearly states that Thailand recognises the 30 day rule although you can present many examples like this one. Thai doctors, insurers and other interested parties have been pressing for it for years. There was something in the Bangkok Post about it (I cut it out) about 4 years ago.

It's not just or only about the 30 day rule it's about doubting the accuracy of the information from Thailand; I would expect you to know that.

This will be my last post regarding this unless you can come up with something to back up your claims (in terms of WHO doesn't recognize Thailand's Road fatalities numbers and that deaths in Thialand are only recorded if died at the scene and that road safety is getting worse in Thailand) because I have shown that the WHO does publish numbers from Thailand and they accept these numbers. I have also shown you reports from Thailand that clearly state the time of death being within 30-days of accident and have posted links from the WHO showing that the WHO adjusts their numbers using a scientific formula to convert the data from countries where the reporting is either above or below 30-days. In addition I have shown you reports from Thailand with numbers that mirror those of the WHO for the reported years with it being made clear by the WHO that the numbers include deaths from 30-days.

I continue to respond by providing you links and references to show your claims are incorrect but you either repeat yourself, attempt to steer away from your claims or provide non-relevant links. So, unless you got something to actually back up your claims then there is no reason for me to continue to show you are incorrect because you simply ignore these sources even though they come from the people you claim do or don't do things.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Nisa

[ginjag]

Nisa there was a road safety audit done September 2011 (I will try and get hold of it). It was done in Thailand by Thais with the help of the uk. All world road safety audits are based upon the uk method.

The link here provides a good insight as to what I've been stating but the key points listed here and that were mention in the audit last year is the lack of credible information from Thailand. The audit could only achieve so much as the information was limited as Thailand accepts this. It's not just the 30 day rule which is standard and not Thailand's lack of compliance but in simple terms it's not possible to adhere to it when there is a serious lack of information. It's not about Thailand refusing to accept it, it's about the WHO requesting evidence and that's not forthcoming. And that's not just restricted to RTA's. Under-reporting is the biggest problem.

I assisted in a case two years ago when an Australian claimed on his insurance when he was knocked over by a Taxi. All seemed well until the insurer was told there was no evidence or records of the said accident despite the police taking details and him spending 4 days in hospital.

The non-compliance is not a deliberate and willful act it's more like incompetence. Add to that the very low level training in accident investigation that the police get.

http://tinyurl.com/c75syn9

Here is a link of road fatalities over the years that was published by Thailand a number of years ago which clearly states the numbers include deaths happening 30-days of an accident. The number also are the same WHO has published and which WHO also states deaths are counted from 30-days of the accident.

http://www.grspasia....df/Thailand.pdf

Again, I am simply asking you for links to what you stated in terms of WHO doesn't recognize Thailand's Road fatalities numbers and that deaths in Thialand are only recorded if died at the scene and that road safety is getting worse in Thailand. If you want to debate other issues that is great but lets at least accept these points you made are not factual as I believe I have provided ample links showing you this while I have yet to see one from you backing up your claims.

IF things are moving in the right direction it has NOTHING to do with driving standards, OR law enforcement. The main reason being technology-Disc brakes -tyres-(motor bikes). Other vehicles impact absorbing materials, seat belts-air bags.

I can see no evidence from whatever source that the trend is due to this -that or the other. It has to be still Tuition-testing-strict law enforcement.( that does not mean more road blocks by the police) most of this is for money-greed. The biggest example of this is when stopped with no crash hat, paid your fine you are allowed to ride off. When stopped again 1 kilomtre away with still no hat ,you show them the ticket from the previous check and they wave you on. If we rely on stats it is giving us what we see in these posts. true figures of deaths and these can differ so we argue about different stat sources till we all end up in KELLY'S AR*OLE.

LETS HAVE A FEW MORE honest opinions from ground level-experiences, and then make up your mind if things are improving. Difficult to comment if you are NOT a driver, as you have no way of knowing if the trend of driving standards are improving or not.

[NangrongJ]

Nisa you started with wikipedia and ended with an ancient powerpoint that is only with recommendations. That powerpoint also refers to driver training initiatives, what happened to them?

All countries are recorded but the list of 33 does not include Thailand for reasons that are widely known and accepted.

[Scully]

Could i ask whereabouts in Thailand you live Nisa ?.

I am impressed by your optimism however nothing over the years has changed or is changing.

We can all look at statistics or google for and against sites. The reality is when you see accidents practically every day and see nothing being done then that is all the evidence I need.

The reality is that the number of road fatalities continues to trend down in Thailand as it has done for many years right along with the number of deaths per population and the ever increasing number of vehicles and people driving. This is fact that you can complain, be pessimistic or even say things are not improving fast enough but the unmistakable reality is that things are improving and in my opinion improving at realistic rate.

So,your statement that nothing is changing is in fact incorrect.

Edit: I live in Bangkok and have for years. It is where near 50% of all accident in Thailand occur but I would never be so naive to believe that my eyes alone can give me an idea of .number of road fatalities in Thailand and if they are going up or down throughout the years.

http://ajtpweb.org/s...nsport-thailand

This link gives actual numbers recorded by the Thai police. Note there are less injurires and deaths in 2010 than 2011, yet the traffic accidents decline.

This to me sounds like a case either a different or incorrect way of collecting data.

So I am right and you are wrong.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Scully

[impulse]

Nisa you started with wikipedia and ended with an ancient powerpoint that is only with recommendations. That powerpoint also refers to driver training initiatives, what happened to them?

All countries are recorded but the list of 33 does not include Thailand for reasons that are widely known and accepted.

Hey, I'm not a Nisa fan, but you've started with a statement that you are in the business and an expert, followed that with a bunch of "you're wrong and I'm right", refuted several WHO and UN accepted studies, claimed you can post a multitude of documents supporting your case....

Than posted none of them.

Put up or go back and sit on the porch.

[Nisa]

Could i ask whereabouts in Thailand you live Nisa ?.

I am impressed by your optimism however nothing over the years has changed or is changing.

We can all look at statistics or google for and against sites. The reality is when you see accidents practically every day and see nothing being done then that is all the evidence I need.

The reality is that the number of road fatalities continues to trend down in Thailand as it has done for many years right along with the number of deaths per population and the ever increasing number of vehicles and people driving. This is fact that you can complain, be pessimistic or even say things are not improving fast enough but the unmistakable reality is that things are improving and in my opinion improving at realistic rate.

So,your statement that nothing is changing is in fact incorrect.

Edit: I live in Bangkok and have for years. It is where near 50% of all accident in Thailand occur but I would never be so naive to believe that my eyes alone can give me an idea of .number of road fatalities in Thailand and if they are going up or down throughout the years.

http://ajtpweb.org/s...nsport-thailand

This link gives actual numbers recorded by the Thai police. Note there are less injurires and deaths in 2010 than 2011, yet the traffic accidents decline.

This to me sounds like a case either a different or incorrect way of collecting data.

So I am right and you are wrong.

I have no idea what you are asking if you are right or wrong about but clearly you have just shown another link that shows road deaths continue to trend down and your numbers are also showing accidents are going down too. For some years they were going up (2000 to 2004) but my guess is that had more to do with reporting being up as more people have insurance and need to make reports.

First you need to not the big "P" next to 2011 which doesn't have an explanation as far as I can see but would bet it means the numbers have not been verified or completed. Secondly it shows a clear trend year over year of number of injuries & deaths going down. The period this covers shows a decline in number of accidents too over this period. There is no country that doesn't see a spike in accidents or deaths on some given years and this is why one needs to look at trends. I also have to point out that I have no idea if the number of injuries and deaths on this page is actually titled properly (note the page is not from Thai Police, but the page author says his numbers are from Thai Police) because each figure has a decimal point. How does one give a total of injured and dead using fractions of numbers? Also, if you look at the number of deaths (minus the decimals) for the years WHO has reported, they match what WHO has put out and has stated were deaths within 30-days.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Nisa