Thai Face

[kat]

"... The issue of the consequence of this is longer term than in a western country IMHO, because people here sometime remember and can have a grudge against the person that made them embarrassed in front of everyone for a long time. This is the 'nuclear option' and rest assured it is used by Thais, but it is used far later than a similar situation in the west. However, yelling and losing temper looks pretty bad in any country; I often wonder whether people I've seen losing their temper here and elsewhere have any idea how bad they look to everyone around them. "

Yeah, I agree with the above. But in this case, I would call consequence revenge.

Thanks for your post. I'll respond more when I have time.

[robitusson]

It's quite simple really. Relationships between people get priority over the individual people in Thailand. In the West the people are more important than the relationships between them.

[jamman]

It's quite simple really. Relationships between people get priority over the individual people in Thailand. In the West the people are more important than the relationships between them.

That's pithy.

I used to be married to a woman who considered physical objects more important than both relationships and people. I respected her ability to care for stuff, but was at the same time disgusted at her priorities. It's just stuff.

And I know I'm a broken record, but I still can't help but see the Face issue as a developmental delay, a habit of a nation of the developmentally delayed. In extreme exambles it looks like a psychotic break. People prefer to put forward and try to believe bare faced lies rather than own up to embarassing consequences. Pre-teens do that. Adults should have more expected of them.

Regarding loosing temper, most people don't normally loose their temper to get their way. Most of us have some restraint and respect for appropriate social interaction. We loose our temper by degrees, as we are treated callously and unjustly and with blatant lies. That's what anger is for - we get angry for good reason sometimes. And being barefacedly lied to while being cheated is as good an example of a good reason to show anger as I can think. Anger is not always counterproductive - some times it's the only way to make any sort of impression at all. If that has to happen too often though, I need to avoid the stupid heads who can't converse in ways that don't provoke anger.

On a different topic, related to anger, some folks get others worked up just for the fun of being more in control of the situation than those they just drove nutty with their lies and stubborn ignoring of their own words and any reality. It's tricky dealing with folks who use language mostly for emotional manipulation. It's hard to see it, at first, and is always frustrating, if you have any emotional investment in the conversation whatsoever. Which, of course, we all want to be able to have. Some people just really want to get the other person off balance, and are cunningly expert at it, all the while seeming all innocent. Some women especially occasionally crave a good fight, crave being the "victim" of anger, and know just how to break past the point of patience, and ride well beyond. If you haven't experiened this, then you've chosen your companions well. Sometimes those who claim to be victim are not innocent.

But back to face and anger. One example I wrote about a few years ago was about a Thai language tutor of mine refusing to acknowlegde my correction of her pronounciation of "row", when used to mean to paddle a boat. She was pronouncing it as if it rhymed with cow. I'm a Canadian - I know. I could not for the life of me understand her reluctance to be corrected, in fact her reluctance was really pissing me off, so I showed her the correct pronunciation in an authoritative online dictionary. Nope. She would not could not be corrected. That is willful ignorance, and if she internalized to the point of believing it, it is a psychotic break with reality. Face, in that case, isn't about being all nicey nicey nice and preserving social harmony, it is about preserving insanity.

Edited February 6, 2006 by jamman

[gurkle]

I used to be married to a woman who considered physical objects more important than both relationships and people. I respected her ability to care for stuff, but was at the same time disgusted at her priorities. It's just stuff.

And I know I'm a broken record, but I still can't help but see the Face issue as a developmental delay, a nation of the developmentally delayed. Or worse, a psychotic break. People prefer to put forward and try to believe bare faced lies rather than own up to embarassing consequences. Pre-teens do that. Adults should have more expected of them.

Japan is the 2nd largest economy in the world and China's the fastest growing (and could easily overtake European countries someday). Both of these countries follow the Face concept.

Okay, I'm done defending Thais against random insults on this particular forum. If you don't like the concept of Face, don't follow it - no one is forcing you to follow it or to stay here in this nation of the "developmentally delayed" for that matter. I wonder how many of the less-successful farangs in Thailand use it as an excuse for not being able to get ahead in life, despite being from "superior" countries.

Edited February 6, 2006 by gurkle

[Sir Burr]

Japan is the 2nd largest economy in the world and China's the fastest growing (and could easily overtake European countries someday). Both of these countries follow the Face concept.

True, but it took over a decade for Japan to face the reality that it's banking industry was in trouble due to non-performing loans. They suffered more than a decade of stagflation because of this delay. Once they admitted the problem, and more importantly, did something about it and put through bank reforms, only then did the economy pick-up.

Even the Japanese realise that they have to change their management culture away from consensual management and move towards the American model.

The Chinese have always been good at business, but how long did it take them to admit that the Cultural Revolution was a mistake? Years and years because they were afraid of publicly critisising "The Great Helmsman".

[jamman]

I used to be married to a woman who considered physical objects more important than both relationships and people. I respected her ability to care for stuff, but was at the same time disgusted at her priorities. It's just stuff.

And I know I'm a broken record, but I still can't help but see the Face issue as a developmental delay, a nation of the developmentally delayed. Or worse, a psychotic break. People prefer to put forward and try to believe bare faced lies rather than own up to embarassing consequences. Pre-teens do that. Adults should have more expected of them.

Japan is the 2nd largest economy in the world and China's the fastest growing (and could easily overtake European countries someday). Both of these countries follow the Face concept.

Okay, I'm done defending Thais against random insults on this particular forum. If you don't like the concept of Face, don't follow it - no one is forcing you to follow it or to stay here in this nation of the "developmentally delayed" for that matter. I wonder how many of the less-successful farangs in Thailand use it as an excuse for not being able to get ahead in life, despite being from "superior" countries.

I wasn't talking about economics. Perhaps you meant to quote some other poster? I was talking about personal development, acting like a pre-teen instead of an adult. For instance not being able to disagree with parents or the in-crowd or authority, or choosing to live in an alternate reality over loosing an itsy little bit of face by being corrected for pronunciation, are both examples of acting like a pre-teen. Adults are capable of indipendent thought and the expression of it, and don't crave inclusion with the in crowd to the exclusion of all else, and don't force reality into what they MUST have it be in order to have enough emotional security to take the next breath. Adults can be wrong, publicly.

You started off your post saying that you weren't going to defend Thais, then changed the subject completely and asked why I was still in Thailand, if Thais and face is such an issue to me. Well, what that has to do with Thais and face is beyond me. Even if I weren't still in Thailand, would it still be a topic that should not be discussed? Why not stay on topic? And other countries being superior or not is also changing the subject. Is it about superior or inferior countries, or about face being a detriment to growing up as a responsible adult? Ya, in the west, we don't have that problem as much. Ya, it bothers me to deal with people with that problem. None of that has anything to do with whether it's a real problem or not.

I did leave Thailand, by the way. The women I dated just drove me nuts, after a while. I need openness and trust in communication, and that is not too much to ask.

Edited February 6, 2006 by jamman

[LaoPo]

Japan is the 2nd largest economy in the world and China's the fastest growing (and could easily overtake European countries someday). Both of these countries follow the Face concept.

True, but it took over 1. a decade for Japan to face the reality that it's banking industry was in trouble due to non-performing loans. They suffered more than a decade of stagflation because of this delay. Once they admitted the problem, and more importantly, did something about it and put through bank reforms, only then did the economy pick-up.

Even the Japanese realise that they have to change their management culture away from consensual management and move towards the American model.

The Chinese have always been good at business, but how long did it take them to admit that the Cultural Revolution was a mistake? 2. Years and years because they were afraid of publicly critisising "The Great Helmsman".

1. It took (and still does) more than 5 decades to admit they did horrible things to millions in SEA...even the history books in the schools deny so many things about WWII and the occupation of so many countries. They still refuse to pay compensation to the thousands of Western women who were forced to 'sleep' with thousands and thousands of Japanese soldiers...

2. The leaders in Beijing still don't admit that and the people themselves?...they were not or badly informed...it's still better not to speak about Mao in public (negative that is).

LaoPo

[steveromagnino]

Japan is the 2nd largest economy in the world and China's the fastest growing (and could easily overtake European countries someday). Both of these countries follow the Face concept.

Even the Japanese realise that they have to change their management culture away from consensual management and move towards the American model.

Ah.... that must be why the Americans are so good at let's see...making cars, electronics and farming right?! And yes yes, a fair chunk of the ideas came from Deming (an American) according to western pres (actually the truth is he probably gave some of the ideas, but also learned a whole lot from the Japanese, and the reason for his acceptance was support by Ishikawa etc etc) but of course... none of the American companies wanted to listen to him did they (or so the press says, actually he was welcome to talk to most of them, but image is everything innit). Ishikawa wanted to get the message through, that they, management were the problem, not the workers; to preserve 'face' he used the scary foriegner to solve the problem in a clever way that got people doing what he wanted....ironic really....

Admit it, the best management model combines the best of a whole bunch of different models from around the world. Based on the success of Toyota, Samsung, NZ America's Cup Team 1995, the All Blacks, Land and Houses, etc - you see a variety of countries and cultures and ways of doing things, and to say these are 'American model' is crazy; there are a ton of reasons why America has enjoyed its day in the sun post WW2, but they aren't due to some magic 'model' that I am aware of. In the same way there is not some magic 'Japanese way' (despite much research to say there was when Japan shone briefly in the 80s), I just don't think there is some magic 'American way'.

Also, if we are going to hold up the American model as so great, please explain why the healthcare system there is a disaster, you have no checks and balances for corruption it seems when examining the Bechtel and Halliburton presidencies, you have poverty even though you have one of the highest GDPs per capita, your major industries such as cars are seemingly not competitive, you have ongoing problems with urban hooligans (witness the graffitti pretty much everywhere and the looting problems in NO) and your wealth distribution is actually shockingly poorly distributed, ironically in almost the same way as Thailand (although proportionately considerably more).

For any benefit of a system, there are usually trade offs. Since you've held up the America example as a better system since it has no 'face issue' then please explain the reasons for hiding their prison abuses in the recent Iraqi situation; the cover up in the Bay of Tonkin? I think it was incident , adultery, - I personally think govt breeds idiots who like to cover their own butts and can never admit mistakes. How many politicians (other than Sharron) have admitted they got things wrong recently? The inability of Japan to admit is crazy, but take individual Japanese and when it is explained to them, they are often very sad and shocked at what they have done as a race in the past; so the refusal to admit entirely is a govt one; based on the systematic abuse of indigenous people by many other races, it isn't like the Maori situation in NZ was fixed straight up, or the Aborigine situation in Australia; govts don't like to admit mistakes, and especially don't like to look bad to voters. So easier to ignore the whole thing. If you can find an admission from the English and Americans regarding Dresden, well I would be keen to read it. I don't see that in any of the text books I studied about the Allies brilliant successes; victors write the history books innit.

So since I propose and have evidence that coverups and so forth occur in other countries as well, I think we cannot look to politicians and the political system as examples of face vs. no face, since both seem pretty hopeless.

Better to look at business, and again, I put up the American system of supposedly no face in the car industry, vs. the Japanese system of supposedly lots of face. If this indeed how things are, surely the Americans started earlier, have a larger domestic market, more access to raw materials and the ability to tilt government policy. With all this in their favour, they have been getting beat for quite some time now, and my guess is that 'face' is pretty unimportant in the scheme of things here.

Therefore, based on this, my argument is that face is, at least for business, not necessarily a hindrance; there is no easily identifiable 'American model' and even American companies cannot be held up as somehow much better than other country's companies and their respective cultures. In a globally competitive market, there are several ways to skin a cat, and the smartest companies combine various elements to create their own culture, and often this has at least some grounding in the culture of the countries they do business.

There is evidence that 'face' within the govt sector can cause people to not take responsibility or admit mistakes in countries with a 'face culture' such as Japan and China; however ample examples of cover ups, lies and so forth can be found from countries supposedly with no 'face' so this is not conclusive for or against 'face' instead it just shows that politicians are a bunch of liars! Sadly, we seem particularly blessed with bad politicians here; I put that down to education and wealth distribution and understanding of key issues; as they have discovered around the world there is no one system that can protect a people from the idiots in power; Singapore shows dicatatorship can work, and yet Burma shows it cannot...and so on.

Within everyday life, we live in a country with 'face' so there are certain ways to behave. If we live in a country without 'face' then there are another set of ways to behave. Many would have me believe that my way here is 'backward'; however the idea that getting angry and losing control of oneself is good and appropriate at certain specified times and that truth is the most important thing are cultural and not absolute; I believe that one way is not necessarily better than the other. And I've lived and worked in both systems.

However I will admit that any system taken to an extreme is dangerous; hence my concern about never confronting or the reverse of confronting every little thing. And within any system, there is room for abuse.

Therefore, I don't believe that getting rid of 'face' is the answer; I like the idea of 'face', of giving 'face' and for being respected on the basis of certain accomplishments in certain situations. However, it is sometimes (particularly in civil service and govt organisations) taken to extremes and this is bad. For every bad example you can throw at me, I can throw back a positive one; so this use of examples other than for demonstration is not statistically significant.

There is something wrong with the system here that allows for abuses and corruption, however I think 'face' is a fairly minor part of it.

The middle path; that is the answer to almost everything. Well, except in orienteering, where it may or may not be the answer :-)

Edited February 7, 2006 by steveromagnino

[jamman]

Japan is the 2nd largest economy in the world and China's the fastest growing (and could easily overtake European countries someday). Both of these countries follow the Face concept.

Even the Japanese realise that they have to change their management culture away from consensual management and move towards the American model.

... Since you've held up the America example as a better system since it has no 'face issue'...

... Within everyday life, we live in a country with 'face' so there are certain ways to behave. If we live in a country without 'face' then there are another set of ways to behave...

Many would have me believe that my way here is 'backward'; however the idea that getting angry and losing control of oneself is good and appropriate at certain specified times and that truth is the most important thing are cultural and not absolute; I believe that one way is not necessarily better than the other. And I've lived and worked in both systems.

However I will admit that any system taken to an extreme is dangerous; hence my concern about never confronting or the reverse of confronting every little thing. And within any system, there is room for abuse.

Therefore, I don't believe that getting rid of 'face' is the answer...

All cutures have the concept of face, and paying a compliment is appreciated in any culture. The west has it also. I think what is being talked about when a westerner refers to the concept of face, is what you refer to as as taking face to an extreme.

As for loosing temper or being direct, that happens at least as frequently in Thailand, does it not? It seems that there is simply a totally on or tottaly off switch here, and one must hold forebearance as long as possible. People still get angry here, as anywhere. It is more explosive here, but not less frequent, as far as I understand. Do you see it differently?

Do you feel or see that face is regularly taken to an extreme in Thailand?

[steveromagnino]

All cutures have the concept of face, and paying a compliment is appreciated in any culture. The west has it also. I think what is being talked about when a westerner refers to the concept of face, is what you refer to as as taking face to an extreme.

As for loosing temper or being direct, that happens at least as frequently in Thailand, does it not? It seems that there is simply a totally on or tottaly off switch here, and one must hold forebearance as long as possible. People still get angry here, as anywhere. It is more explosive here, but not less frequent, as far as I understand. Do you see it differently?

Do you feel or see that face is regularly taken to an extreme in Thailand?

Your first point relates to face regarding our own actions, and how people see us. Linked to this is a culture of putting up with things; as I have stated before Thailand rates the group very highly compared to the individual (assuming I understand Hofstede's studies), and so the individual wants and needs will sometimes be sacrificed for the good of the group. This stems logically from the village atmosphere, where everyone lived together and had to work together to harvest, etc. It is changing now in the cities, and IMHO not necessarily in a good way.

interesting point; I woudl say that visibly verbally loosing temper would be most prevalent in urban USA of any country I have seen, where apparently slow service, not quite hot enough coffee and any other manner or trivial things are enough to explode in a yelling fit. It isn't that surprising since Americans from the cities are often quite loud anyway, but I think it is ok there to show displeasure verbally. Rural Americans are completely different IMHO, and far more similar to the people of NZ, Australia and so on in the speed of life. Losing one's temper in USA seems to reflect most badly on the person at the receiving end.

Based on my friends' travels to the UK, it seems certain cities there it is fairly common to lose temper physically, and it certainly is common with a few drinks in New Zealand. It is IMHO normal to see grown men (and women) scrapping on the streets on pretty much any big night out on the town.

Here in Thailand, I'd say in general people have a slightly higher tolerance; things like slow service, bad traffic etc - jai yen yen is a major element. Losing temper and yelling shows a lack of self control, and therefore you will see people perhaps appear to tolerate more and not respond. Not always, and lots of exceptions to this, but generally I stand by this. I like this. And it is frigging embarassing having to cover up for my idiot foreigner clients and customers when they are yelling at their staff, suppliers or us, then me having to intervene and translate and come up with a third explanation so we can continue to work together. I think the Thai way is perhaps a little more based on remembering all the overt actions for a long time, and that's why the yelling and fighting happen less (lots of covert things get forgotten almost straight away incidentally). The western way I have observed; fine to fight and yell, and then we forgive and forget and move on.

However, at a certain point, if pushed hard enough, some Thais will indeed be unable to contain themselves, and this is the boiling point. I'd call it very much an on-off for some people; particularly for a westerner or foreigner looking on, they might not see the escalating components, the body language, change in verbal language, and then if it does go to physical confrontation then look out. The sole aim if it reaches that is to humiliate and win. There are minimal rules dictating how, and that's why it is fine to kick, elbow, gang up and so on. I would love to see the 'street fight' rules that are apparently out there, but in my mind if you end up in a fight, you might as well win. Chances are this will be remembered for a very very long time. Not much num jai if it reaches this point.

Regarding face taken to an extreme, if we think of face as a continuum, I'd put the western countries I've worked in - Australia, New Zealand, America - all somewhere in the low range. Thailand would be in the med-high range. So a few people (particularly the ones in civil service) are a huge amount about face. They can afford to care about lots of things. A few people use face as an excuse and take it to an extreme when it suits them.

But on this thread, I am being told there is an American way, and it is better, because it doesn't have face. I am in agreement with you that there is face in most places, and that having or not having it is not a black and white good or bad issue.

[Ijustwannateach]

Face has its local differences, and it is extremely misleading to say that Thai face is the same as Japanese face. In Japan, it is much more likely that someone who has lost face will accept personal responsibility, and if his shame is too great he may run away (from his job or family) or even kill himself- unlike the style of extreme response here in Thailand, where the extreme manifestations we hear of are used as excuses for cowardly killing of someone else.

As a less extreme example, let's look at the school system and the concept of "failure."

In *both* countries, failing a grade or a class is looked at as a face-losing situation.

In Japan, no special attention is given to help those who are struggling- they simply must try to pass, by going to classes, studying, doing homework, and perhaps going to extra tutoring. It is viewed as their responsibility or duty to pass. The pressure on them is tremendous. The slow students wind up doing many, many extra hours so that they will pass and not be shamed by having to repeat a grade. As a result, even the slow students mostly pass, though it costs them more effort than it is probably really worth, and the ones who fail may become depressed or suicidal.

As a result, students in Japan largely don't fail or lose face, though there is a huge cost in terms of man-study-hours and personal emotional distress.

In Thailand, every effort is made to avoid their being any possibility that the students will fail. Pressures are put on the administrators and teachers to give high grades to students who do nothing and have no abilities or skills in class. Students must even pass by government fiat, in recent times. In the last couple of years, more and more "special points" have shown up in our end-of-term grade sheets that take away the impact that actual academic evaluation has on the final grade and increase the grade average of the group of students as a whole. Even if the public schools decided to change this the students could abandon them for private schools with even laxer policies.

As a result, students in Thailand largely don't fail or lose face, though there is a huge cost in terms of having a population that is actually very poorly educated on average.

The intelligent reader can deduce the different meanings of face in these instances and their positive or negative effects on the relevant countries.

"Steven"

[elkangorito]

Most people want to know how they can get rid of all the things that their God/culture does not like/love about them. They want to get rid of the 'negative' emotions such as anger or jealosy. But how do you get rid of something that is a part of you? Many creative ways have been tried. The first attempt is usually to withdraw from all the situations & the people who they think cause them anger or jealosy (when in actual fact, it is THEMSELVES who create their emotions/reactions). And since these negative emotions make them feel less than who they want to be, they constrict their lives to rid themselves of these emotions.

In extreme cases, restriction leads to renunciation & whether they sit in their cave or their house, the desire is to cut off all stimulation that might provoke the reactions that they are trying not to feel. But the day will come when they leave the house/cave & go to the local shop. Someone pushes into line in front of them & their peaceful interior explodes into anger. When they realise that renunciation is not working, the next attempt is to WILL themselves to not be angry. Their face becomes a mask. A smile is always there & their jaw is rigid. They have to keep smiling because if they relax, they might cry, scream or do something else "inappropriate". They try, with all of their will, to override the emotions that are moving through them. This works for a while, until one day, an unsettling event occurs & before their jaw can clench, they respond with the same feelings & the same fears that they are trying to overcome.

What have they accomplished?

"Manipulation" comes next by way of ancient laws, rules, cutoms etc etc etc. They manipulate people so that they will not be bothered by others. If others are "behaving", one will not have to "misbehave" or worse still, "CHANGE". Why "change" when you can get others to do what you want by using fear & other such de-humanising rubbish?

Laws, rules & cultures are based upon this premise. It is a way of avoiding personal responsibility for ones thoughts & subsequent actions. In order for one to have a nice life, others must obey the rules...the rules that were laid in stone milleniums ago. Laziness...nothing less. Nothing more.

[Valjean]

I’d like to add something from a business perspective. There is an assertion made above about Thai or other companies needing to become more American in style. This seems to be consistent to with a right / wrong view on cultural differences and a very dangerous attitude for any American company to adopt.

I work for a very large American multinational with offices in over 100 countries. Here in Thailand we have a staff of a little over 100 of which I’m 1 of 2 farang – there are a few other southeast Asians. For us embracing a diversities of cultures and people isn’t a nice to have HR program, it is a business imperative. We have corporate culture which is American in many respects but we’re working hard to find an essence of that culture that can be expressed and succeed in countries around the world and with people from very diverse backgrounds.

Much of our future growth will come outside of the US and Europe – that is where the growth and people are. If we only look at the world through a US business and culture lens we risk not connecting with the businesses and consumers on those countries. We need other view points and perspectives because it makes us stronger and more competitive to be diverse. We get new ideas from new perspectives.

There is huge competition for the best and brightest people around the world. If we are going to attract and keep the best we better be ready to respect them. I had someone work for me in the US from Taiwan. She had her under grad degree from MIT and MBA from MIT Solon School of Business – in other words very smart from a very top school. It was hard for her to adapt to our pushy culture and it took coaching from me to help her understand ways she could speak up and be heard in meetings. Likewise for me to coach other people on the team to be sure to shut up now and then and listen to others. The loudest voice isn’t always right. If we as a company and individuals don’t learn how to do this woman will leave – and we will be worse off for it.

Around the world today people are proud of who they are and where they come from. The Thais on my team like working for a multi-national and with people from all around the world, they like learning the company and US culture – and they are very proud and happy to be Thai and expect that to be respected also. Learning to do this is a win-win. I don’t expect my staff to become American and they don’t expect me to become Thai. One of the best bits of advice I got from someone on the team was “be yourself, this way you will be predictable to everyone even if you are different”. We all meet half way and strive to understand, there is no right or wrong. We have a shared language in accountability and results but how we go about this, how we communicate, how we deal with things is different and that’s not only OK – it’s great. It is not easy but it is the hard work we need to do to succeed in the years ahead.

[DavieA]

This face thing is one of the biggest problem for Asia as progress can not be made unless mistakes and bad decisions are pointed out and corrected.

BINGO!

[elkangorito]

From the Bangkok Post 'readers forum' some time about Sept/Oct 2005.

Title: Afraid of Losing face.

"I have been working part-time at a coffee shop for almost two years and have gained loads of valuable experience from the job. At least, my English has improved a lot, as most of the customers here are foreigners. But there have been some Thais whom I found weird. They are too afraid to lose face in front of Thai staff when they place an order. Whether or not they know how to order, they never take a look at the picture menu I offer them. As a result, most of the time, they get the wrong drink, a drink that they unintentionally ordered. I think this behaviour is nonense. I see no need to be ashamed of asking about what one doesn't know, as we aren't supposed to know everything in the world. And asking doesn't mean the same as stupidity.

Perhaps it serves those people right that they don't get what they want, in return for being over-afraid to lose face in a wrong situation."

Tharinee

Chaing Mai

I have quoted this directly from the article.

[Bull]

Stop excusing Thais for refusing to lose face. ......... But this face saving epidemic needs to be tackled with the same urgency as Asian bird flu if Thailand is to compete successfully with the rest of the world (something I am sure the current CEO would like).

Anothern Westerner judging the Far East and its culture....the Far East where more than half of the world population lives. You are talking about Thailand here, but the 'losing face'-isue is all over Asia, like for instance China, with 1.3 Billion people with a culture which has a few thousand years of their own culture and 'losing face' experience.

Who are we to judge?

Instead we, at least, should try to understand more of the culture in other countries.

Saying the things you said shows YOU have no idea!

LaoPo

..Most of my thai friends and colleagues would agree with the post above. They see the "loosing face" issue as old fashioned, stupid, an excuse to get away with a million things, plus one of the reasons this country is not moving forward faster.

I run a company where my and my colleagues (who are all thai) call shit by its name, and everybody is quite happy that we do it. I never had any big problem telling somebody that their work, behaviour, performance,...were not up to expectations. I do this in a clear, but respectful way...which is what I would do anywhere in the world, and it has worked fine so far.

Also, many of my clients (who are 90% thai too) have told me in many occasions that they prefer to work with us over other companies because of that very same reason...

Now, if you prefer to let any big haired khunying jump the queue at the bank because you are afraid or making her loose face...go on collecting culture awareness points...I just did not do it today!

Bull

[jdinasia]

Japan is the 2nd largest economy in the world and China's the fastest growing (and could easily overtake European countries someday). Both of these countries follow the Face concept.

True, but it took over a decade for Japan to face the reality that it's banking industry was in trouble due to non-performing loans. They suffered more than a decade of stagflation because of this delay. Once they admitted the problem, and more importantly, did something about it and put through bank reforms, only then did the economy pick-up.

Even the Japanese realise that they have to change their management culture away from consensual management and move towards the American model.

The Chinese have always been good at business, but how long did it take them to admit that the Cultural Revolution was a mistake? Years and years because they were afraid of publicly critisising "The Great Helmsman".

Was this the same time that the US had the S&L problems ... and banking problems in the EU? (re: Jap)

Did China ever say the Cultural Rev was a mistake?

[jdinasia]

Stop excusing Thais for refusing to lose face. ......... But this face saving epidemic needs to be tackled with the same urgency as Asian bird flu if Thailand is to compete successfully with the rest of the world (something I am sure the current CEO would like).

Anothern Westerner judging the Far East and its culture....the Far East where more than half of the world population lives. You are talking about Thailand here, but the 'losing face'-isue is all over Asia, like for instance China, with 1.3 Billion people with a culture which has a few thousand years of their own culture and 'losing face' experience.

Who are we to judge?

Instead we, at least, should try to understand more of the culture in other countries.

Saying the things you said shows YOU have no idea!

LaoPo

..Most of my thai friends and colleagues would agree with the post above. They see the "loosing face" issue as old fashioned, stupid, an excuse to get away with a million things, plus one of the reasons this country is not moving forward faster.

I run a company where my and my colleagues (who are all thai) call shit by its name, and everybody is quite happy that we do it. I never had any big problem telling somebody that their work, behaviour, performance,...were not up to expectations. I do this in a clear, but respectful way...which is what I would do anywhere in the world, and it has worked fine so far.

Also, many of my clients (who are 90% thai too) have told me in many occasions that they prefer to work with us over other companies because of that very same reason...

Now, if you prefer to let any big haired khunying jump the queue at the bank because you are afraid or making her loose face...go on collecting culture awareness points...I just did not do it today!

Bull

I think it is insane to expect rapid change in Asian societies regarding "face" and that many people are kinda fuzzy about the concept and thinking in terms of patronage and "greng jai" as well.

Do people prefer to do business with companies that are well run and that take direct resp. for thier business practices? Sure many do! But if you are in business in Thailand and don't recognise the issues around dealing with Thai people you will run into huge problems! Egalitarianism is a great concept .... but it aint here yet .... even westerners doing business in the west know this ...

[Sing_Sling]

[

That sound's more like an example of psychopathic tendancies than Thai face. I mean, if every Thai that jumped when they a dog barked at them then there wouldn't be any dogs in LOS.

Now that's an idea!

[elkangorito]

The key word here is "change".

Given the fact that Thailand has only really been fully exposed to the Western World for the last 70 years, it is therefore unreasonable to expect any "rapid" change. As a matter of fact, my preference is that Thailand does not change quickly. Should it change quickly, we can all KISS GOODBYE the wonderful life that we now enjoy. I, for one, do NOT wish to revert to the never ending working/$$$ culture of the Western World.

However, not withstanding this, I think that certain 'realisations' need to be actioned so as to nullify the useless & 'guilt promoting' aspect of this 'loss of face' ideal. From my experience, 'loss of face' promotes lying & generally degrades honesty & trust between people. Companies that have the need to get rid of 'loss of face', do so for reasons of profit. I disagree with this idea. This is the wrong reason to lose 'loss of face'.

In one instance, I inadvertantly gained great respect from a Thai colleague, who questioned my beliefs (not a normal Thai attitude). I explained to her that I believed in trust, faith, honesty, respect & love. I further told her that if I cannot uphold these things unto myself, I am deceiving myself & my life will reflect this deception by way of 'pay back' (Karma, if you like). She thought about this for a few days & later told that me that I was her mentor. I quickly told her that I am not anyones mentor. I am simply 'me'. I did, however, tell her that if believe in myself, I can know myself & therefore love myself. Later, she told me that she discovered 'something new' about herself. Essentially, she chose to negate (not lose totally) the 'loss of face' aspect of her life. MONEY WAS NEVER THE ISSUE.

It saddens me immensely that companies play on culture & basic human aspects to achieve a monetary goal. This is nothing but 'lip service' & an absolute lie!!! This is typical in all the Americanised countries...lies, lies, lies. My wish is that this sick attitude is rejected in Thailand.

[aaaaaa]

greenwanderer108, don't bother arguing with kat - you'll lose, face too ! she'll dominate you wiht her intellectual and other superiority. forgive her, she is just being snobish as usually. (let fireworks begin - taking her fire from you , mate - appretiate !)

well, looks like there are a lot of NY-ers and americans here - let's start america-bashing, shall we ? they love it ! to prove how much better they are.

no? ok then, let's continue Thailand-bashing - seems like they love it too.

which one they love more?

or perhaps, let's all of us submit and move to NY ! what a great solution that would be - no problems with face issue or any other "bad" things in Thailand.

why the <deleted> thai people care about when garlic bread shoud be served ? it is not their food, they don't even bother to find out WHEN it must be served. but try to make some mistake about order in which Thai would has to be eaten - they'll be naturally VERY particular.

what garlic bread ! in simple dep store, you ask staff - where I can get cold pepsi (even if you ask in Thai) - they blink at you "cold pepsi? may mee" you say thank you, go find it yourself, couple of min come back and show it to that same gal. she smiles at you : "oh, cold pepsi ! there you are then !".

after a while I understand them. they are simply "waiting out" their time in such jobs. because they are not paid that much anyway - so, why trouble with extra endeavours.

another thing is, if they simply don't like you (like I bet Kat might seem quite arrogant and intimidating even to "less intelligent" farangs, what to say poor Thais), they would VERY easily to teach you a lesson by ignoring you or something. they may show that they are SOOOO busy and have a LOOOOOT of customers, enough to worry or bother about loosing one, which in fact thye might feel better not to see anymore.

and they WON't lose face by doing so, but feel like they are doing right thing.

but I'd rather prefer Thai face than some other face, I mean "false ego" or "false prestige". yes, it can be quite hard sometime to be in situation with Thai when "face" is invoilved. but it is not so bad as in some other parts of Asia, and perhaps in the West. only may be Japanese "face" is milder, I am not sure. at least my Jap friend is very gentle and kind soul, I think rare peson among any cultures or natinalities.

Valjean, I think that's the good way, what you say : "We have corporate culture which is American in many respects but we’re working hard to find an essence of that culture that can be expressed and succeed in countries around the world and with people from very diverse backgrounds."

Edited March 23, 2006 by aaaaaa

[jdinasia]

oi! ... methinks someone should drink less 100 pipers before posting!

[elkangorito]

oi! ... methinks someone should drink less 100 pipers before posting!

I think one has has been drinking 1000 pipers. I could hardly understand a word of it. Or was it typical American 'grammar'? (this is an oxymoron).

[zzap]

greenwanderer108, don't bother arguing with kat - you'll lose, face too ! she'll dominate you wiht her intellectual and other superiority. forgive her, she is just being snobish as usually. (let fireworks begin - taking her fire from you , mate - appretiate !)

....

Well, she has a reputation for making well-informed posts and detecting bullsh!t, prejudiced assumptions et al a mile against the wind...

[jdinasia]

oi! ... methinks someone should drink less 100 pipers before posting!

I think one has has been drinking 1000 pipers. I could hardly understand a word of it. Or was it typical American 'grammar'? (this is an oxymoron).

No slagging off on Yanks .... they might end up discussing Aussies, language skills, and Howard!

[Niloc]

Language skills! I have never see such a display of ignorance as has been displayed in this post... the word is LOSE!! Loose is what the wheel becomes just before it falls off, you lose face, you lose your money but when the fan in the AC rattles, it is because it is loose!!

[elkangorito]

oi! ... methinks someone should drink less 100 pipers before posting!

I think one has has been drinking 1000 pipers. I could hardly understand a word of it. Or was it typical American 'grammar'? (this is an oxymoron).

No slagging off on Yanks .... they might end up discussing Aussies, language skills, and Howard!

Buddy, feel free to slag off on Aussies...we have thick skins. I dislike Howard intensely as he is Goerge's "Deputy Sheriff". As for language skills, go your hardest. I'll be happy to compete.

In the meantime, try to limit yourself to at least 50 pipers before posting. By the way, look up "oxymoron". Not many Americans know the meaning of this word. Here is a link to help you understand

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/

[FlyingDutchman]

[kat]

greenwanderer108, don't bother arguing with kat - you'll lose, face too ! she'll dominate you wiht her intellectual and other superiority. forgive her, she is just being snobish as usually. (let fireworks begin - taking her fire from you , mate - appretiate !)

well, looks like there are a lot of NY-ers and americans here - let's start america-bashing, shall we ? they love it ! to prove how much better they are.

no? ok then, let's continue Thailand-bashing - seems like they love it too.

which one they love more?

or perhaps, let's all of us submit and move to NY ! what a great solution that would be - no problems with face issue or any other "bad" things in Thailand.

why the <deleted> thai people care about when garlic bread shoud be served ? it is not their food, they don't even bother to find out WHEN it must be served. but try to make some mistake about order in which Thai would has to be eaten - they'll be naturally VERY particular.

what garlic bread ! in simple dep store, you ask staff - where I can get cold pepsi (even if you ask in Thai) - they blink at you "cold pepsi? may mee" you say thank you, go find it yourself, couple of min come back and show it to that same gal. she smiles at you : "oh, cold pepsi ! there you are then !".

after a while I understand them. they are simply "waiting out" their time in such jobs. because they are not paid that much anyway - so, why trouble with extra endeavours.

another thing is, if they simply don't like you (like I bet Kat might seem quite arrogant and intimidating even to "less intelligent" farangs, what to say poor Thais), they would VERY easily to teach you a lesson by ignoring you or something. they may show that they are SOOOO busy and have a LOOOOOT of customers, enough to worry or bother about loosing one, which in fact thye might feel better not to see anymore.

and they WON't lose face by doing so, but feel like they are doing right thing.

but I'd rather prefer Thai face than some other face, I mean "false ego" or "false prestige". yes, it can be quite hard sometime to be in situation with Thai when "face" is invoilved. but it is not so bad as in some other parts of Asia, and perhaps in the West. only may be Japanese "face" is milder, I am not sure. at least my Jap friend is very gentle and kind soul, I think rare peson among any cultures or natinalities.

Valjean, I think that's the good way, what you say : "We have corporate culture which is American in many respects but we’re working hard to find an essence of that culture that can be expressed and succeed in countries around the world and with people from very diverse backgrounds."

Your arguments are so incredibly simplistic, even I have given up arguing with you. It's more a matter of fatigue than snobbery. I commented on the service in Italian restaurants in context, as well as acknowledging my own assumptions, experience, and difference. I guess we can't all be honorary Thai citizens like you, aaaaaa, lol.

And by the way, I'm from a low-income background and have made poverty alleviation my life's work. I have plenty of warm relationships with poor stateless migrants and the average working Thai. Maybe they appreciate that I am real, and treat them as real people in return, with real interactions, and not as sacred, idealized, romantic concepts from colonial-era ideals of the poor noble savage.

greenwanderer108, don't bother arguing with kat - you'll lose, face too ! she'll dominate you wiht her intellectual and other superiority. forgive her, she is just being snobish as usually. (let fireworks begin - taking her fire from you , mate - appretiate !)

....

Well, she has a reputation for making well-informed posts and detecting bullsh!t, prejudiced assumptions et al a mile against the wind...

Thanks Zzap. That is a really flattering statement. You just brightened my ladies night at Witches'

[jdinasia]

kat- "And by the way, I'm from a low-income background and have made poverty alleviation my life's work. I have plenty of warm relationships with poor stateless migrants and the average working Thai. Maybe they appreciate that I am real, and treat them as real people in return, with real interactions, and not as sacred, idealized, romantic concepts from colonial-era ideals of the poor noble savage."

Unless one is your waiter right?