When Rip Offs Become Grotesque

[cekipa]

Days ago, a friend of mine from overseas arrived in Thailand for the first time. At Phuket airport, he tries to catch a taxi to his hotel in Patong Beach asking how much it was and the answer he got was “how much you can pay me ?”.

I wasn’t very surprised when he told me about this as I had the same answer years ago. What it surprised me however was to think about who could fall for such mischievous question to convince taxis to persist.

These “professionals” are part of more than 50 associations (…..exactly, FIFTY) applying sky-rocketing fares around Phuket, refusing to use the meter for different reasons included a supposed hill-fested Phuket making fuel consumption higher which goes undetected by the meter but when someone points out hills have ups as well as downs where engines work lower compared to its speed, ironically they say that’s irrelevant. Pointless to mention that these organizations gather and decide taxi fares on their own making a trip from Phuket airport to destination curiously more expensive than the other way round.

But the rip off perception doesn’t end to taxis.

It was during a visit at the weekend market in Phuket Town that I took time to visit several stalls spotting a specific Billabong swimsuit asking for the price. The price range was 500/600 baht (discountable) in all but one whose owner approached me with a willing-to-please attitude and the ever present calculator saying that he was going to make a special price for me (something that none of the others claimed) et …. VOILA’ ! while digiting 900 on the display, he was quick to tell me he was willing to bargain……

So, to recap, a special price for me subject to further discount ? And what to expect when the price is not special ? Has this willing-to-please-highly-skilled-retailer ever seen 10 stalls around where his 900 baht special price Billabong are sold 30% less to start with ? Being so rapid to switch to further discount, why not starting from 5,000 baht ? No, 10,000 sounds better: leaves time for this geezer to roll his spliff and drink lao kao while talking.

Amazing Thailand or amazing Phuket ?

[Guest]

"How much you want to pay" and taking the calculator.. I normally refuse to deal with these kind of sales people.

Then again. If you have a bit extra time and wish to give a payback, play stupid. Make your start offer triple the value of the goods or the taxi ride. Notice the greedy eyes on the other party. Be tough with your price.. and let it go a bit higher. Then when it's time to close the deal. say that oh.. I forgot that I don't have enough money for the item. If the other party drops the price at this moment, just say something like "oh no, I can not agree with lower price. It would not be fair for you.. you would loose money" .. and then walk away with few wais.

Then again, if the other party says at the start that you are offering too much, then you might have a possibility to make an real deal.

[petercallen]

I do not see the problem especially with the weekend market in Phuket town, you just walk around and check the prices first plenty of stalls have priced goods that are the same, once you have checked the prices just purchase from the stall with the best price.

[BookMan]

If you don't like to haggle at a market you can always buy from a department store or Tesco etcetera.

A fair price is what the buyer considers to be a fair price.

(Taxis are a different story)

[cekipa]

....A fair price is what the buyer considers to be a fair price.

and how about the seller ? when does the seller consider the price fair ?

[BookMan]

....A fair price is what the buyer considers to be a fair price.

and how about the seller ? when does the seller consider the price fair ?

The seller would consider the price fair where he makes a reasonable profit.

[cekipa]

....A fair price is what the buyer considers to be a fair price.

and how about the seller ? when does the seller consider the price fair ?

The seller would consider the price fair where he makes a reasonable profit.

So that means the other 10 stalls are making their profit unreasonable.

[BookMan]

....A fair price is what the buyer considers to be a fair price.

and how about the seller ? when does the seller consider the price fair ?

The seller would consider the price fair where he makes a reasonable profit.

So that means the other 10 stalls are making their profit unreasonable.

making their profit unreasonable?

[F1fanatic]

I agree with the OP that its v odd that airport taxis would start the conversation with "how much you can pay me ?" Any tourist would be dumbfounded at this answer to asking the cost of the trip and, hopefully, just go to the next taxi driver.

The sooner they enforce metered taxis, the better.

As for small shops, market stalls etc., in my experience they start off with a high price and then quickly say "how much you want to pay". I offer a low price and, when not accepted, walk away to the next shop/stall selling exactly the same thing. Trial and error eventually sorts out a reasonable price. Extremely annoying and a waste of time, especially for a tourist.

[cekipa]

making their profit unreasonable?

Given that all sellers are Thais, pay same rental cost and electricity and 900 baht is a reasonable price, offering the same item starting at 500/600 baht does not make the profit reasonable.... or am I missing something ?

[BookMan]

making their profit unreasonable?

Given that all sellers are Thais, pay same rental cost and electricity and 900 baht is a reasonable price, offering the same item starting at 500/600 baht does not make the profit reasonable.... or am I missing something ?

A seller considers the price fair where he makes a reasonable profit.

An item starting at 500/600 baht and selling at that starting price could be achieving a good profit for the seller. Let us rank 'good profit' one notch above reasonable, for arguments sake

Then there is 900 Baht. At 900 baht, if the seller achieves this, he has made an 'excellent profit'.

Excellent profit selling for 900 baht

Good profit selling for 500/600 baht

Reasonable profit selling for 450 baht (seller considers this price fair for both parties)

Covering overheads selling for 400 baht

You can use whatever terminology you want in place of mine.

A buyer could see any of these price points as being a fair price to themselves. It depends on the buyer.

[theslime]

At 600 or 900 they have to be Copies. Try around 1700 upwards Be happy knowing your is getting rip offs that probably cost a couple of Bucks to make but it makes him feel better with the rip off Logo and supposed cheap price. go for it

[NomadJoe]

I had to replace the charger for my mobile the other day, so popped into mobile shop. Knowing the price of the charger elsewhere and not wanting to give the salesperson a chance to give me "farang price", I said "200B yes?" She said "No, 150,"

I went to the dentist thinking I would need root canal. They saw me right away, the dentist poked around, identified some other problems, took 2 X-rays, then recommended an endodontist. How much? No charge.

The tuktuk/taxi situation here is in most ways unique to Phuket. Scams happen everywhere in Thailand/SEA, but the taxi/tuk tuk system here is one that is specifically designed to be able to overcharge/scam tourists who typically will have no idea how far a destination is or how much a price should be. This leaves the Thais with no viable public transport. One reason for the high price is that due to the "village mentality" each taxi or tuk tuk is not allowed to pick up a passenger outside of their own "turf" or they risk consequences from the rival tuk tuk/taxi co-op. So instead of queuing up at the nearest que as they do every where else in Thailand and the world, Phuket taxi's must return empty to their own turf. IE the passenger pays for a round trip ride every time regardless.

The "Phuket has hills" is of course utter horseshit. It cannot explain a 5 to 10x increase in a fare in a seatbelt-less noisy Phuket tuk tuk, a vehicle which costs half that of an air-conditioned Bangkok taxi. Your flight from Bangkok may very well have been cheaper than your taxi ride to your hotel, especially if you don't know what the going rate should be, or use the first counters you see as you leave baggage claim. Prices there start at 1200-1500B in a "limousine" (a Toyota Camry has somehow morphed from a compact car to a limousine here) The distance from Patong to the airport for example, would be 190B in a Bangkok Taxi. Here it's 800B or more in either a tuk tuk or a black plate (illegal) taxi. Karon to Patong is 400B in a tuk tuk. In a Bangkok metered taxi it would be 50B. (35B for the 1st 3km, 5B km after) You can't use a meter taxi because there aren't any meter taxi's outside the airport, and very few legal green plated salon style taxi's. (For the metered Taxi from the airport, go out the doors and turn right. About 500B to Patong, if there are any there, and if it isn't in the middle of the night when the metered taxi's aren't allowed to operate for some reason) If you go take a look at your nearest taxi rank, despite all the recent reporting and "crackdowns" most taxi's will not have green plates. They will be illegal "black taxis" with white plates and black lettering. This is because in Phuket it is more important to belong to and be paid up with the taxi mafia than it is to be in compliance with laws and regulations. And published prices are usually for 2 people (some signs say 2 and some say 4). Any more and the price goes up even more even though tuk tuks can more comfortably, up to 9. In a Bangkok taxi you can put 4 , maybe even 5 people in and the price stays the same.

The local government is powerless, and in many cases uninterested in regulating them because many local officials are the ones directly benefiting from the extortionate fares. Very few tuk tuks are individually owned. The vast majority belong to pools, where several tuk tusk are owned by one person and rented out to the drivers who are usually not even from Phuket, the this whole argument that they are "protecting the lively hoods of Phuket people, is also horseshit. For example, Pian Keesin (who has been either the mayor or the tambon chief of Patong for 30 years), reportedly owns a large share of them, and his son is the "Phuket Taxi Federation" president. This is why they tuk tuks have increased their numbers to the point where they clog up all the surface streets and take up all the public parking. Most sit idle all day. At the published prices, each one only needs one or two fares a day to be profitable.

The drivers know they are part of a powerful organization and behave accordingly. Many are drunk/high while working, and assaults on tourists are common. It's a shameful, glaring black eye on the tourism industry. Things are not likely to change any time soon.

Tuk tuks park where they want.

Edited September 17, 2012 by NomadJoe

[cekipa]

making their profit unreasonable?

Given that all sellers are Thais, pay same rental cost and electricity and 900 baht is a reasonable price, offering the same item starting at 500/600 baht does not make the profit reasonable.... or am I missing something ?

A seller considers the price fair where he makes a reasonable profit.

An item starting at 500/600 baht and selling at that starting price could be achieving a good profit for the seller. Let us rank 'good profit' one notch above reasonable, for arguments sake

Then there is 900 Baht. At 900 baht, if the seller achieves this, he has made an 'excellent profit'.

Excellent profit selling for 900 baht

Good profit selling for 500/600 baht

Reasonable profit selling for 450 baht (seller considers this price fair for both parties)

Covering overheads selling for 400 baht

You can use whatever terminology you want in place of mine.

A buyer could see any of these price points as being a fair price to themselves. It depends on the buyer.

We have different perspectives indeed. An item whose starting price becomes a smiling "special price for you" at 900 baht while for the same item all the other shoppers start from 500/600 without claiming "special price for you", in my vocabulary is not called excellent profit but "I am gently trying to rip you off" and the buyer seeing this as a fair price for himself I call him "dumb" unless the shopper has a monopoly of Billabong or all the shoppers are in a lobby where there is no other alternative than going out of Phuket. I appreciate your discussion BookMan.

[cekipa]

At 600 or 900 they have to be Copies. Try around 1700 upwards Be happy knowing your is getting rip offs that probably cost a couple of Bucks to make but it makes him feel better with the rip off Logo and supposed cheap price. go for it

At Naka Market there are no originals but years ago I bought the same Billabongs (quality differs even among copies) spending 250 and so far, so good. Color and logo still intact, no rippings.

[BookMan]

We have different perspectives indeed. An item whose starting price becomes a smiling "special price for you" at 900 baht while for the same item all the other shoppers start from 500/600 without claiming "special price for you", in my vocabulary is not called excellent profit but "I am gently trying to rip you off" and the buyer seeing this as a fair price for himself I call him "dumb" unless the shopper has a monopoly of Billabong or all the shoppers are in a lobby where there is no other alternative than going out of Phuket. I appreciate your discussion BookMan.

You might be right.

Some tourists could see 900 baht as being an okay price. Maybe haggle it to 800 baht and they are happy with that. Not everyone is confident with haggling.

Based on what you said I'd consider it a rip off and not buy from that seller, unless his price came down to being cheaper than everyone else.

[BookMan]

I had to replace the charger for my mobile the other day, so popped into mobile shop. Knowing the price of the charger elsewhere and not wanting to give the salesperson a chance to give me "farang price", I said "200B yes?" She said "No, 150,"

I went to the dentist thinking I would need root canal. They saw me right away, the dentist poked around, identified some other problems, took 2 X-rays, then recommended an endodontist. How much? No charge.

The tuktuk/taxi situation here is in most ways unique to Phuket. Scams happen everywhere in Thailand/SEA, but the taxi/tuk tuk system here is one that is specifically designed to be able to overcharge/scam tourists who typically will have no idea how far a destination is or how much a price should be. This leaves the Thais with no viable public transport. One reason for the high price is that due to the "village mentality" each taxi or tuk tuk is not allowed to pick up a passenger outside of their own "turf" or they risk consequences from the rival tuk tuk/taxi co-op. So instead of queuing up at the nearest que as they do every where else in Thailand and the world, Phuket taxi's must return empty to their own turf. IE the passenger pays for a round trip ride every time regardless.

The "Phuket has hills" is of course utter horseshit. It cannot explain a 5 to 10x increase in a fare in a seatbelt-less noisy Phuket tuk tuk, a vehicle which costs half that of an air-conditioned Bangkok taxi. Your flight from Bangkok may very well have been cheaper than your taxi ride to your hotel, especially if you don't know what the going rate should be, or use the first counters you see as you leave baggage claim. Prices there start at 1200-1500B in a "limousine" (a Toyota Camry has somehow morphed from a compact car to a limousine here) The distance from Patong to the airport for example, would be 190B in a Bangkok Taxi. Here it's 800B or more in either a tuk tuk or a black plate (illegal) taxi. Karon to Patong is 400B in a tuk tuk. In a Bangkok metered taxi it would be 50B. (35B for the 1st 3km, 5B km after) You can't use a meter taxi because there aren't any meter taxi's outside the airport, and very few legal green plated salon style taxi's. (For the metered Taxi from the airport, go out the doors and turn right. About 500B to Patong, if there are any there, and if it isn't in the middle of the night when the metered taxi's aren't allowed to operate for some reason) If you go take a look at your nearest taxi rank, despite all the recent reporting and "crackdowns" most taxi's will not have green plates. They will be illegal "black taxis" with white plates and black lettering. This is because in Phuket it is more important to belong to and be paid up with the taxi mafia than it is to be in compliance with laws and regulations. And published prices are usually for 2 people (some signs say 2 and some say 4). Any more and the price goes up even more even though tuk tuks can more comfortably, up to 9. In a Bangkok taxi you can put 4 , maybe even 5 people in and the price stays the same.

The local government is powerless, and in many cases uninterested in regulating them because many local officials are the ones directly benefiting from the extortionate fares. Very few tuk tuks are individually owned. The vast majority belong to pools, where several tuk tusk are owned by one person and rented out to the drivers who are usually not even from Phuket, the this whole argument that they are "protecting the lively hoods of Phuket people, is also horseshit. For example, Pian Keesin (who has been either the mayor or the tambon chief of Patong for 30 years), reportedly owns a large share of them, and his son is the "Phuket Taxi Federation" president. This is why they tuk tuks have increased their numbers to the point where they clog up all the surface streets and take up all the public parking. Most sit idle all day. At the published prices, each one only needs one or two fares a day to be profitable.

The drivers know they are part of a powerful organization and behave accordingly. Many are drunk/high while working, and assaults on tourists are common. It's a shameful, glaring black eye on the tourism industry. Things are not likely to change any time soon.

Good post nomadjoe.

As mentioned in the recent thread about the publishing of taxi rates: it is just giving credibility to an outrageous pricing structure.

Of course, now they have published their extortionate prices what is the bet that taxi/tuk tuk patronage by tourists actually increases?

A lot of tourists will be happy to have a lit of prices published and hanging up and not having to haggle or 'feel' they are being ripped off. (sure they might be getting ripped off, but if it is the same prices listed everywhere they might not feel like they are.)

It might be a rip off but it is the only show in town.

[uptheos]

....A fair price is what the buyer considers to be a fair price.

and how about the seller ? when does the seller consider the price fair ?

For the seller it's as much as he thinks he can get, from someone who looks like an easy touch.

[cekipa]

....A fair price is what the buyer considers to be a fair price.

and how about the seller ? when does the seller consider the price fair ?

For the seller it's as much as he thinks he can get, from someone who looks like an easy touch.

Yep ! Let me guess: somebody with white skin whose name ends with .....ang ? (not my case, as my skin is not white)

[petercallen]

In most Asian countries and probably all holiday destinations its normal practice to negotiate the price

The better you are at it the better the price, otherwise shop at a department store if you do not like the hassle

[petercallen]

Taxis are not expensive here compared to Perth Western Australia

Weekdays tariff monday to friday 6am to 6pm and this is the cheapest time to hire a taxi

Flagfall $3.90

distance rate $1.64 per Km

Detention charge $45.70 per hour

The last time i changed money i got 32.4 baht per AUD

Work it out for yourself

Edited September 17, 2012 by petercallen

[Stanley Jerd]

Taxis are not expensive here compared to Perth Western Australia

Weekdays tariff monday to friday 6am to 6pm and this is the cheapest time to hire a taxi

Flagfall $3.90

distance rate $1.64 per Km

Detention charge $45.70 per hour

The last time i changed money i got 32.4 baht per AUD

Work it out for yourself

Australia has disneyland prices, especially WA, check out the rest of Asia including the Middle East and even Singapore and Japan have cheaper prices for cabs

[BookMan]

Taxis are not expensive here compared to Perth Western Australia

Weekdays tariff monday to friday 6am to 6pm and this is the cheapest time to hire a taxi

Flagfall $3.90

distance rate $1.64 per Km

Detention charge $45.70 per hour

The last time i changed money i got 32.4 baht per AUD

Work it out for yourself

Of course, cab prices in OZ are very high.

But comparing Phuket with the rest of Thailand, a fairer comparison, the prices are 5x 6x 7x etcetera

[starkey_rich]

Taxis are not expensive here compared to Perth Western Australia

Weekdays tariff monday to friday 6am to 6pm and this is the cheapest time to hire a taxi

Flagfall $3.90

distance rate $1.64 per Km

Detention charge $45.70 per hour

The last time i changed money i got 32.4 baht per AUD

Work it out for yourself

And wages here are not what they are in Perth.

Not everyone here who use's taxi's are tourist.

How often do you see locals using taxi's or even Tuk tuks?

2 years ago I was in a retail outlet in the UK.

I bought 2 pairs of Nike (not copy) shorts made in Thailand 3 Ripcurl t-shirts

The shorts were £5 (250 bht ) a pair and the t-shirts £4 (200 bht).

Lets face it Thailand is nothing but a rip off country now

[petercallen]

Taxis are not expensive here compared to Perth Western Australia

Weekdays tariff monday to friday 6am to 6pm and this is the cheapest time to hire a taxi

Flagfall $3.90

distance rate $1.64 per Km

Detention charge $45.70 per hour

The last time i changed money i got 32.4 baht per AUD

Work it out for yourself

Of course, cab prices in OZ are very high.

But comparing Phuket with the rest of Thailand, a fairer comparison, the prices are 5x 6x 7x etcetera

I have always paid the meter fare when catching a taxi from the airport and its a pity the metered taxis are not allowed to operate freely here like in Bangkok and Ko samui but with the amount of corruption here it is not likely to happen

[uptheos]

....A fair price is what the buyer considers to be a fair price.

and how about the seller ? when does the seller consider the price fair ?

For the seller it's as much as he thinks he can get, from someone who looks like an easy touch.

Yep ! Let me guess: somebody with white skin whose name ends with .....ang ? (not my case, as my skin is not white)

Well, as it wasn't a farang this time, the case is even stronger for someone who looks like an easy touch.

[BOBBYTIN]

making their profit unreasonable?

Given that all sellers are Thais, pay same rental cost and electricity and 900 baht is a reasonable price, offering the same item starting at 500/600 baht does not make the profit reasonable.... or am I missing something ?

your missing something,these items cost them to buy ,around a hundred baht.

[silsburyhill]

"How much you want to pay" and taking the calculator.. I normally refuse to deal with these kind of sales people.

Then again. If you have a bit extra time and wish to give a payback, play stupid. Make your start offer triple the value of the goods or the taxi ride. Notice the greedy eyes on the other party. Be tough with your price.. and let it go a bit higher. Then when it's time to close the deal. say that oh.. I forgot that I don't have enough money for the item. If the other party drops the price at this moment, just say something like "oh no, I can not agree with lower price. It would not be fair for you.. you would loose money" .. and then walk away with few wais.

Then again, if the other party says at the start that you are offering too much, then you might have a possibility to make an real deal.

Well. What the White Man you are. I've seen people like you and felt ashamed for your attempts at 'I'll show the little brown man what's what'.

I too refuse to negotiate with the 'how much you pay' contingent, up to a point. But to take pleasure in watching the disappointment in their eyes as your ego kicks in truly sickens me. I had a friend who'd set out his stall way out of any market area, was asking very reasonable prices for the QUALITY goods he sold, when some Italian had him set aside several items and then offered 10 baht an laughed and walked away. asshol_e.

[Capex]

My wife just told me last week that she was intrigued by the signs above items in the stalls in the "Expo Market" in Phuket town not far from the Royal Phuket City Hotel.

In one particular example of a product that she was looking at, the card said "99/990". She was advised that the price of 99 Baht was for Thai people and the 990 baht was for foreigners. Further investigation by her yielded the information that this appeared to be standard practise many of the stalls in the area.

I am sure that you can come to your own conclusions in this.

[Guest]

"How much you want to pay" and taking the calculator.. I normally refuse to deal with these kind of sales people.

Then again. If you have a bit extra time and wish to give a payback, play stupid. Make your start offer triple the value of the goods or the taxi ride. Notice the greedy eyes on the other party. Be tough with your price.. and let it go a bit higher. Then when it's time to close the deal. say that oh.. I forgot that I don't have enough money for the item. If the other party drops the price at this moment, just say something like "oh no, I can not agree with lower price. It would not be fair for you.. you would loose money" .. and then walk away with few wais.

Then again, if the other party says at the start that you are offering too much, then you might have a possibility to make an real deal.

Well. What the White Man you are. I've seen people like you and felt ashamed for your attempts at 'I'll show the little brown man what's what'.

I too refuse to negotiate with the 'how much you pay' contingent, up to a point. But to take pleasure in watching the disappointment in their eyes as your ego kicks in truly sickens me. I had a friend who'd set out his stall way out of any market area, was asking very reasonable prices for the QUALITY goods he sold, when some Italian had him set aside several items and then offered 10 baht an laughed and walked away. asshol_e.

Please, don't be an racist. Do you really think that "little brown man" are the ones who try to fool others? It does not matter what color of the skin or eyes people have if they are trying to rip off others.

.. yes.. that response was the same quality as yours .. Sometimes you might think what everything wrote to here should not be taken too seriously.

In my daily life 99% of the people I deal with are good, they do not try to use farang prices, nor try to rip off even the people who they don't know. I'm happy to customer and they are happy to sell to me.