We Know It Happens But Have You Seen It ?

[mr78]

I used to do visa runs in Ranong by boat to Burma, and every time the boat staff stopped at the army/customs post on the way over and handed them 4 cases of beer. The boat staff was selling viagra.

[NewlyMintedThai]

Many UK MPs thought differently when compiling their expenses.

For which convictions and prison time was dished out ( and time served!)

While keeping this Thailand related we can observe upto a third of all government spending going into the pockets of the corrupt who, if politicians, can be assured of never seing the inside of a prison cell.

It's rare, but it does happen. The former chief of police (can't get more powerful than that) is still in the slammer over the Saudi Gems affair.

[Sing_Sling]

OP you must be a Greenhorn, wake up and go outside.

Yes in almost all countries graft / gifting / bribery / corruption are common. If you are fr north america or europe this happens on a much higher

level and general society is not exposed to it. Many other parts of the world it is apart of everyday life.

I hear this argument all the time and it is utter rot. Is corruption 'common' in Europe or N America? No, it is not. The association with committing a crime is there . . . in Thailand it is not. It is accepted, acknowledged, widespread and open and exists from the street vendor to the highest government offices and corporations

There is a world of difference

It is not? Respectfully I disagree. It is absolutely common in Europe and North America. Has there even been a president that has made it more that two years out office with out being charged with some sort of illegitimate business deal. On lower levels I agree It does not exist that is correct.

I did not say anything about how it was associated with crime, accepted or not. It is a part of most if not all societies and viewed in many different ways in many different regions. of course there is a world of difference.

Respectfully you may!

As Guesthouse correctly stated, it is different and when someone is caught they are sent to jail - quite simple. There are no amount of connections that can put the genie back in the bottle when a corruption scandal is exposed - from politicians to heads of industry.

I'm not sure if I understand your comment about presidents - Europe doesn't have a lot of them and US presidents and two years?

You did not mention crime, but that is what it is in western countries; unequivocally.

So, no. Corruption is not all-pervasive in western countries . . . (Italy perhaps . . .)

[NewlyMintedThai]

Yes, they (sometimes) go to jail in the West. But they usually go to jails that are as cushy as a country club, and for a fraction of the hard time a garden variety criminal would get for stealing a television set to sell and feed his family.

I don't find Western standards in this regard particularly worthy of emulation.

[Chicog]

I've seen members of the "Crime Suppression Department" systematically entering every bar in Cowboy during early doors, and I'm pretty certain that they weren't on a pub crawl or a lad's night out, but I wasn't about to wander in and observe.

[NewlyMintedThai]

I've seen members of the "Crime Suppression Department" systematically entering every bar in Cowboy during early doors, and I'm pretty certain that they weren't on a pub crawl or a lad's night out, but I wasn't about to wander in and observe.

Everyone of those bars offers female companionship for money. Either the cops take money to look the other way, or they are all closed down instantly.

What's your preference?

[phuturatica]

When I had to do a visa run to Laos I went with a company and the guy who was leading the group paid off the officers with a wad of cash so we could all work through and not have to have our passports checked and automatically be granted a visa with no red stamp etc.

[tinfoilhat]

Land office to get usufruct put on at the same time as transfer - cannot actually remember whether I gave the envelope or the gf did

been there

[Morakot]

I noticed, 1 bottle of whiskey, a net full of fruit, a large sack of rice, a case of beer, several carrier type bags with hot take out food all being handed over at different times.

Welcome to the concept of gift exchange.

[NewlyMintedThai]

When I had to do a visa run to Laos I went with a company and the guy who was leading the group paid off the officers with a wad of cash so we could all work through and not have to have our passports checked and automatically be granted a visa with no red stamp etc.

That worked out in your favor then, eh?

No corruption...stand in line with everyone else.

A little wheel greasing, "this way, sir!"

I know which one I prefer.

Now...demanding a bribe to let you through at all -- like the thieving Cambodians at some crossings -- that's a bit different, wouldn't you say?

[besth]

It is different to give "presents" to speed up/ease things that are legal and would/should be granted anyway or plainly bribe someone for something illegal. Both things happen. Neither should, but TIT. Fight the system at your own cost if you want. Unfortunately, it is usually worth the cost to speed things up. Having said that, in private companies luckily things are getting more over the table by the year. Still a long way to go before that reaches government, but it is a start.

[Sing_Sling]

Yes, they (sometimes) go to jail in the West. But they usually go to jails that are as cushy as a country club, and for a fraction of the hard time a garden variety criminal would get for stealing a television set to sell and feed his family.

I don't find Western standards in this regard particularly worthy of emulation.

Not sometimes. If found guilty they go to jail, why do you find this hard to believe. . . and you really believe this SUN or MIRROR tripe about country club jails?

Fraction of the time ......

What's the point of having a discussion if you make no sens at all?

Ok, here's what I can do.

Rich and influential people get thrown into the worst jails with 7 foot gay black men for fifty times longer than murderers and rapists and accountants

Whew, easy, really. Just make shit up

I've seen members of the "Crime Suppression Department" systematically entering every bar in Cowboy during early doors, and I'm pretty certain that they weren't on a pub crawl or a lad's night out, but I wasn't about to wander in and observe.

Everyone of those bars offers female companionship for money. Either the cops take money to look the other way, or they are all closed down instantly.

What's your preference?

You preference is the anti-corruption police being corrupt.

Nice.

Until you are at the receiving end of corruption, then you'll scream like a girl at how unfair it all is

You're very cavalier with your statements - I guess that's easy on the internet

[travelmann]

Land office to get usufruct put on at the same time as transfer - cannot actually remember whether I gave the envelope or the gf did

been there

Ive been there too without and envelope and still got the usufruct, Sam Roi Yot Land office.

[Bangkokhatter]

The OP has just described exactly the goings-on at my local immigration office. Not sure corruption would be so out in the open. Seems like gifts for a job well done

[NewlyMintedThai]

I'd be happy to discuss with you in person, if you'd prefer.

Yes, they go to jail SOMETIMES, if they are caught, if they are convicted, and if sentenced to jail by the judge.

YES, there are low-security jails for white-collar criminals in the West. Everyone knows this.

YES, everyone knows that robbing a bank of 1,000 dollars will land you in a high-security prison for longer than taking a kickback of 1 million dollars will (and you'd be in a cushy low-security prison).

As for lack of making sense, your bit about gay blacks is a classic example.

[Sing_Sling]

I'd be happy to discuss with you in person, if you'd prefer.

Yes, they go to jail SOMETIMES, if they are caught, if they are convicted, and if sentenced to jail by the judge.

YES, there are low-security jails for white-collar criminals in the West. Everyone knows this.

YES, everyone knows that robbing a bank of 1,000 dollars will land you in a high-security prison for longer than taking a kickback of 1 million dollars will (and you'd be in a cushy low-security prison).

As for lack of making sense, your bit about gay blacks is a classic example.

Why on earth would I want to discuss this, or anything, with you in person? Really?

"They go to jail sometimes, if they are caught". Umm, no. They go to jail if/when they are caught and found guilty. Not sometimes. If you feel this is not the case then please feel free to back up your statement

"YES, there are low-security jails for white-collar criminals in the West. Everyone knows this." Never denied this . . . but they are not 'country-clubs' and nor are they reserved for the wealthy or influential. If you're referring to the US then these are usually federal jails for certain crimes.

"YES, everyone knows that robbing a bank of 1,000 dollars will land you in a high-security prison for longer than taking a kickback of 1 million dollars will (and you'd be in a cushy low-security prison)."

Depends, doesn't it. You rob a bank and it wouldn't be while holding a rubber chicken to the teller's head or just passing a note to the teller asking nicely for money.

As for your penchant for 'cushy low-security prisons' . . . really? Just because you repeat your assertion over and over doesn't make it magically vaild.

"As for lack of making sense, your bit about gay blacks is a classic example."

I was making a point using your level of 'debate'. Surely you knew that

Seriously, if you can back up your assertions, I will gladly admit that I am wrong . . . but please provide more than just the odd example as you characterise it to be a 'normal' situation.

[NewlyMintedThai]

I'd be happy to discuss with you in person, if you'd prefer.

Yes, they go to jail SOMETIMES, if they are caught, if they are convicted, and if sentenced to jail by the judge.

YES, there are low-security jails for white-collar criminals in the West. Everyone knows this.

YES, everyone knows that robbing a bank of 1,000 dollars will land you in a high-security prison for longer than taking a kickback of 1 million dollars will (and you'd be in a cushy low-security prison).

As for lack of making sense, your bit about gay blacks is a classic example.

Why on earth would I want to discuss this, or anything, with you in person? Really?

Luckily for the other posters here -- some of whom may be black and/or gay -- the feeling is mutual...except that mine now extends to written discussion as well.

Good day, sir.

[Sing_Sling]

I'd be happy to discuss with you in person, if you'd prefer.

Yes, they go to jail SOMETIMES, if they are caught, if they are convicted, and if sentenced to jail by the judge.

YES, there are low-security jails for white-collar criminals in the West. Everyone knows this.

YES, everyone knows that robbing a bank of 1,000 dollars will land you in a high-security prison for longer than taking a kickback of 1 million dollars will (and you'd be in a cushy low-security prison).

As for lack of making sense, your bit about gay blacks is a classic example.

Why on earth would I want to discuss this, or anything, with you in person? Really?

Luckily for the other posters here -- some of whom may be black and/or gay -- the feeling is mutual...except that mine now extends to written discussion as well.

Good day, sir.

Playing the black and/or gay card with a comment you deliberately take out of context is highly disingenuous . . . but then so is offering to meet me and when I decline you say the feeling is mutual?

Excellent rhetoric . . . yet still left floundering without any credibility on this issue.

Fair enough - it is nice to know your thoughts are with other posters. Adieu

[meom]

A colleague of mine once asked to speak to me about something private. In a closed office he asked me what he should do with 'this'.

'This' was an envelope full of money ( a lot of money) he had been given by a contractor.

I advised him to email his boss at head office to tell him what had happened and to inform his boss at HO that he was reporting the matter to his line manager in Thailand.

He was not keen on reporting back to HO lest it reflect badly on him personally.

I explained to him that he either reports the bung or takes the bung - if he reports the bung he must accept that his line manager has almost certainly been given a bung too. He then risks the dangerous situation of being an honest guy that crooks can't trust.

I suppose he could have just returned the money.

Just tell the contractor that he cannot accept it due to company policy etc. and tell the contractor to buy him lunch or something.

[robblok]

@NewlyMintedThai

Corruption is all good and nice untill your wife / child ect is mowed down by a rich drunk guy in a ferrari speeding and ignoring a traffic light.

He gets away with it because he can afford to pay someone off.. I wonder how you feel then.

Or when you get stuck in a hotel that you thought had safety standards and now burns down around you while your trapped and the emergency doors are nailed shut.

[Sing_Sling]

@NewlyMintedThai

Corruption is all good and nice untill your wife / child ect is mowed down by a rich drunk guy in a ferrari speeding and ignoring a traffic light.

He gets away with it because he can afford to pay someone off.. I wonder how you feel then.

Or when you get stuck in a hotel that you thought had safety standards and now burns down around you while your trapped and the emergency doors are nailed shut.

How about something even more mundane like a trip to get your visa/doctor/license etc... You wait and wait until it is your turn then someone gets up and hands over some money to be let in before you . . . then another does it and so on and so on . . .

You may say that you'll do the same . . . and the poor old man/woman who can't afford to offer a bribe is left out time after time

Nice, very nice

[Briggsy]

I previously worked for an international company on a major industrial Eastern Seaboard industrial estate. Every month, a payment to the Police Social and Welfare Club was made. This was entered in the accounts as such.

This is just one example. Is this corruption? Is this a bribe? Is this necessary just to exist in business here? What do you think?

The type of corruption the OP is referring to accompanied by the palming of notes and shifty sidewards glances probably accounts for less than one-tenth of one percent of bribes and kickbacks in this country.

[coolhandjoe]

very thin line between gift-giving and bribery/corruption...

It's a lot thinner in Switzerland than Thailand.

Just remember that you're not in Geneva anymore. Where I come from, numbered bank accounts used to hide assets from the tax man are considered "corruption".

But on a bigger scale - nazi gold etc

[nong38]

If that's your standard of corruption/bribery, you'll see it everywhere.

In Thailand, though, gift-giving in return for doing one's job well is not considered bribery as long as it is not payment in return for either neglecting one's duties, doing something against one's duties, or giving an unfair advantage.

Very common, very accepted, and very legal.

It not my "standard" its just how I have been taught, and such things are not allowed for officials in the environment or community I lived in for 45 years in my country, so yes it would seem "different" to me and was my interpretation of events. Perhaps I am wrong but that's how I saw it.

Interesting interpretation, "for doing a good job" well as they say , you live and learn and extremely difficult to prove otherwise too I would imagine.

Charlie, think of all those governemnt officials who get a bonus for doing/or not doing their job. Its not right in the UK and its nor right here, thats the way I have been brought up, however, it seems to be a way of life now, different countries do it different ways and give it a different name.

You would not dare to try and bribe a police officer in the UK but I understand it might be possible here, depending on the date.

[kevvy]

my friend got his retirement visa , and only had his money in his account for one month , paid under the table , got it in 4 days

[NewlyMintedThai]

@NewlyMintedThai

Corruption is all good and nice untill your wife / child ect is mowed down by a rich drunk guy in a ferrari speeding and ignoring a traffic light.

He gets away with it because he can afford to pay someone off.. I wonder how you feel then.

Or when you get stuck in a hotel that you thought had safety standards and now burns down around you while your trapped and the emergency doors are nailed shut.

How about something even more mundane like a trip to get your visa/doctor/license etc... You wait and wait until it is your turn then someone gets up and hands over some money to be let in before you . . . then another does it and so on and so on . . .

You may say that you'll do the same . . . and the poor old man/woman who can't afford to offer a bribe is left out time after time

Nice, very nice

Never patronize a bar, I suppose, Mr. Clean. Brought to you by corruption. Or is that the kind of corruption you're OK with?

[StreetCowboy]

When I had to do a visa run to Laos I went with a company and the guy who was leading the group paid off the officers with a wad of cash so we could all work through and not have to have our passports checked and automatically be granted a visa with no red stamp etc.

That worked out in your favor then, eh?

No corruption...stand in line with everyone else.

A little wheel greasing, "this way, sir!"

I know which one I prefer.

Now...demanding a bribe to let you through at all -- like the thieving Cambodians at some crossings -- that's a bit different, wouldn't you say?

I imagine most of the paedophiles and villains that we are told live in Pattaya agree with you - why bother with background checks, when for fifty quid extra, you can save everyone's time. Luckily, my wife can walk the bairns to the school

SC

[smokie36]

When I had to do a visa run to Laos I went with a company and the guy who was leading the group paid off the officers with a wad of cash so we could all work through and not have to have our passports checked and automatically be granted a visa with no red stamp etc.

That worked out in your favor then, eh?

No corruption...stand in line with everyone else.

A little wheel greasing, "this way, sir!"

I know which one I prefer.

Now...demanding a bribe to let you through at all -- like the thieving Cambodians at some crossings -- that's a bit different, wouldn't you say?

I imagine most of the paedophiles and villains that we are told live in Pattaya agree with you - why bother with background checks, when for fifty quid extra, you can save everyone's time. Luckily, my wife can walk the bairns to the school

SC

A sobering thought.

[StreetCowboy]

...

A sobering thought.

If only - Connors, please

[NewlyMintedThai]

I think all the holy of holies out there need to admit that they enjoy many of the fruits of corruption.

I, for one, would like to check their living rooms for pirated DVD's and their medicine cabinets for illicit prescription medicines.

I would like them to say they have never enjoyed a night out in places where prostitution was taking place unabashedly thanks to corruption. Never paid iff a traffic cop to avoid the (oh the horror!) of retrieving their license from the station the next day.

Then, I would like them to admit that they only hate corruption in forms thay affects them negatively, and that they have no problem with -- and actually encourage -- the forms that bring them happiness.

It's called being a hypocrite, something which most of us clearly are.