Thaksin Defends Controversial Rice-Pledging Programme

[Ricardo]

tulsathit RT @Phil_kttv:

Korn describes rice pledging as worst government policy ever.

"For every 100bt, only 30bt reaches farmers"

http://nationmultimedia.com/

Did he go on to explain the billions that went to the fertiliser manufacturers and did not increase the farmer profit one baht, but just maintained the same low margins......he should know plenty about this democrat methodology...yes?

Instead of hitting the "But the Democrats..." key, why don't you try to defend this PTP/Thaksin policy?

Remember. The government can't reveal how much they have sold and for what price. It is a secret.

They claim that the issue of selling rice is sensitive.

The big question remains, how can anybody defend the scam if the public is kept in the dark?

Come on 473ego, give it a try.

But former-PM Thaksin, far away in the Middle-East, seems very-fully-informed about government-sales and remaining-stocks, perhaps he has sources of information not available to the rest of the market, or to the Thai public themselves who pay the tax that funds the subsidies to local-farmers & overseas-governments that might buy Thai rice-exports ?

No doubt this is all in the interests of the poor, could one only but see how.

[473geo]

Deal with the Bank of Agriculture.......or go to the middlemen because one has reason to do so.....and take what they offer.......for whatever reason you need to do so.........

I've been involved with farming for years and all farmers continually plead poverty.... some in Europe take more in subsidies a day before their feet hit the floor than the average working salaried man.....why is that?

You guys see the corruption, and it is there no doubt, you see no benefit because it suits you, you ask me to explain, for how many times? look at the bigger picture, agri business is a massive contributor to Thai employment in supporting business, bleed agriculture and the rural areas dry and the country stagnates.

Carry on guys, see what you wish as always. never capable of absorbing the bigger picture.

Do you know why rice is cheaper in neighbouring countries, because the production costs are lower......how are they advancing, how are the rural communities developing, why do the workers come to Thailand?

Having said 3 or 4 times read the treaty of Rome.....I would bet none of you have......

[lizardtongue]

What does this have to do with him? Since when does a fugitive from justice get to have input on government policy...??

Could it be that when your sister is PM?

To actually have his opinion is publicly voiced is in itself a crime!

[rubl]

Deal with the Bank of Agriculture.......or go to the middlemen because one has reason to do so.....and take what they offer.......for whatever reason you need to do so.........

I've been involved with farming for years and all farmers continually plead poverty.... some in Europe take more in subsidies a day before their feet hit the floor than the average working salaried man.....why is that?

You guys see the corruption, and it is there no doubt, you see no benefit because it suits you, you ask me to explain, for how many times? look at the bigger picture, agri business is a massive contributor to Thai employment in supporting business, bleed agriculture and the rural areas dry and the country stagnates.

Carry on guys, see what you wish as always. never capable of absorbing the bigger picture.

Do you know why rice is cheaper in neighbouring countries, because the production costs are lower......how are they advancing, how are the rural communities developing, why do the workers come to Thailand?

Having said 3 or 4 times read the treaty of Rome.....I would bet none of you have......

You're rambling a wee bit here, dear geo.

Treaty of Rome ( http://en.wikipedia..../Treaty_of_Rome ) ? In a topic of Thaksin defending the controversial rice-price pledging scheme?

A scheme which is supposed to help all farmers, in which a country like Thailand spends THN 400 billion to make sure upto 120 billion reaches farmers. With figure on rice pledged and unit costs paid varying depending on who in the government you ask? With consumer prices raising for ALL because of these measures? With THB 300 Baht / day wage still not enough. With this simple THB 270 billion throw away scheme costing almost as much as the multi-year water management and flood prevention strategy? THB 400 billion on price pledging with a same amount spend on Education (or at least budgetted to the Mnistry of Education).

Thailand, that rich country which seemingly can afford to hand money to the rich and considers raising VAT to pay for some of it.

[Ricardo]

Deal with the Bank of Agriculture.......or go to the middlemen because one has reason to do so.....and take what they offer.......for whatever reason you need to do so.........

I've been involved with farming for years and all farmers continually plead poverty.... some in Europe take more in subsidies a day before their feet hit the floor than the average working salaried man.....why is that?

You guys see the corruption, and it is there no doubt, you see no benefit because it suits you, you ask me to explain, for how many times? look at the bigger picture, agri business is a massive contributor to Thai employment in supporting business, bleed agriculture and the rural areas dry and the country stagnates.

Carry on guys, see what you wish as always. never capable of absorbing the bigger picture.

Do you know why rice is cheaper in neighbouring countries, because the production costs are lower......how are they advancing, how are the rural communities developing, why do the workers come to Thailand?

Having said 3 or 4 times read the treaty of Rome.....I would bet none of you have......

The snag being that Thailand isn't part of the EEC ... so the Treaty of Rome doesn't apply here.

Couldn't the same objective have been met, that of raising the income of the rice-farmers of Central/Northern Thailand, by continuing the previous administration's policy of paying the farmers their top-up direct, rather than via the millers and middle-men ? Perhaps at a slightly-higher target-price ?

But that wouldn't have rewarded the regional power-brokers, who delivered the vote to PTP, or have looked as impressive on the pre-election posters, and even-worse that wouldn't have recalled the old TRT way-of-doing-things.

Meanwhile all the other poor farmers, growing rubber or fruit or palm-oil, see their markets fall with no government efforts to support them, apart from the helpful advice to grub-out their trees and start again.

But perhaps the government's policy-makers don't focus on manipulating the markets (to use former-PM Thaksin's own memorable phrase) in those other crops, in the way that they do with rice ? Some might wonder why ever not ?

[473geo]

Ok so you don't know how the bank purchasing works because you have no experience, and wiki does not provide the information

Rubl don't be deliberately obtuse, and you Ricardo, the treaty of Rome is not about location, it is an example why such agricultural subsidy mechanism exist, a response to those who insist on 'rice price finding a natural level'....please try to understand my responses cover a plethora of criticism in an extremely concise way......I doubt you can, but give it try

[473geo]

Just one more thing Ricardo. if you had any real interest in agriculture you would have picked up that at least one rubber plantation owner (on Tvisa) was actually bemoaning the fact that prices are being manipulated there also, buyers stating rubber of the same previous standard is now suddenly lower quality thus a lower price is offered.

[rubl]

Ok so you don't know how the bank purchasing works because you have no experience, and wiki does not provide the information

Rubl don't be deliberately obtuse, and you Ricardo, the treaty of Rome is not about location, it is an example why such agricultural subsidy mechanism exist, a response to those who insist on 'rice price finding a natural level'....please try to understand my responses cover a plethora of criticism in an extremely concise way......I doubt you can, but give it try

Your responses cover more than just a plethora of criticism in a concise way. They cover lots of totally unrelated rubbish.

Now please explain why a THB 400 billion a year price pledging scheme aimed at helping farmers is allowed to have at least 70% of the amount reserved go to non-farmers? And don't tell me it's because of the Treaty of Rome.

A developing country like Thailand which has problems providing decent education to all it's kids (even with a THB 4020 billion budget this year and the MoE suggesting 'teamoney' to augment level of school performance), a country which has problems guaranteeing a decent level of income to a larger part of the population, a country throwing THB 280 billion this year alone at already rich people in order to get a little bit at some poor farmers? A country borrowing a bit more so the coming fiscal year again THB 400 billion is available to squander away in price pledging for the rich.

So who's obtuse here, dear Geo?

BTW "the treaty of Rome is an example why such agricultural subsidy mechanism exist" ? May I suggest you do some reading on what the treaty stands for? Maybe read this EU document http://ec.europa.eu/...rometreaty2.pdf

Maybe start slowly with this http://ec.europa.eu/...FSTREAT/TR1.htm

[473geo]

Rather surprised Rubl you have been reading up such 'unrelated' documentation........

Interesting how your response moves towards the 'treaty of Rome' and does not expand on the involvement of the banks in the scheme.......says it all really Rubl wiki still not producing for you 'knowlegable' in Thailand guys

[473geo]

Oh and to address your 'education' comments

Find this thread and read it

Populist spending will not fix our education woes

"Contrary to the government's belief that materials such as computer tablets will provide a miracle cure for the deteriorating quality of Thai education standards, prominent economist Dr Ammar Siamwalla says that the quality of teachers is the key to reform in our school system, and the failure of educational reform is not because of insufficient financial resources"

I guess this guy has it wrong

[Ricardo]

Just one more thing Ricardo. if you had any real interest in agriculture you would have picked up that at least one rubber plantation owner (on Tvisa) was actually bemoaning the fact that prices are being manipulated there also, buyers stating rubber of the same previous standard is now suddenly lower quality thus a lower price is offered.

I fail to see how the deliberate cheating of rubber-growers, by under-estimating the quality of their rubber, compares to the Thaksin/PTP strategy to manipulate the global market in rice ? Although I had already read about that particular local scam.

I am interested in agriculture, although I don't have any direct-investments nowadays, because my wife's family are into rubber/liquid-latex and palm-oil, and also because I find it interesting to see how vast sums of taxpayers' money are being applied, to the relatively-small benefit of rice-farmers but to the great-benefit of millers & middlemen & commodity-speculators overseas.

And as my post #65 made clear, I do understand and accept agricultural-subsidies can be justified, just not that PTP paying the money to middlemen and millers is necessarily the best approach, if you want the subsidy to reach the farmers themselves.

I have never myself advocated allowing global rice-prices to float totally freely, as I'm sure you'd accept, in fact I'd be looking for the Thai-government (as formerly the largest single exporter) to be exploring options for some sort of co-operative agreement on quotas or of a minimum-price, in association with other leading exporters and within international trade-laws.

[473geo]

You make some valid points Ricardo....at least you can accept the aim of the subsidies (unlike some), and it is the mechanism that requires attention

Corruption needs to be addressed we can all agree on this, but this alone will not eradicate the inconsistencies of benefit. There will always be merchants, there will always be farmers who through necessity sell wet rice at a lower price, there will always be those that hold their rice until the market glut at harvest is past, they dry it, more work but more reward per kg, then there will be those that negotiate a price with the bank, they dry and hold the rice, such is the nature of rice farming, some are more equal than others.

Then there will be those that have hawked their land and 'rent it', as the rice price rises maybe their 'rent' increases so no increase in profit for them.(I hardly dare mention that in the UK I have seen the large land owners do exactly this, 80% of the subsidy increase taken by rent increase, nothing new for me on this one) So it is never a level playing field, give the subsidy direct to renting farmers and still they may see no benefit, I use this as an example of the somewhat naive approach by some of the posters here that the playing field for all is level and that it ever will be!

[bigbamboo]

Land reform allowing rice farmers to own their land would be very popularist and it would certainly be more beneficial to both farmers and the country as a whole.

But not so popular with the rich politicians and land owners.

[15Peter20]

Deal with the Bank of Agriculture.......or go to the middlemen because one has reason to do so.....and take what they offer.......for whatever reason you need to do so.........

I've been involved with farming for years and all farmers continually plead poverty.... some in Europe take more in subsidies a day before their feet hit the floor than the average working salaried man.....why is that?

You guys see the corruption, and it is there no doubt, you see no benefit because it suits you, you ask me to explain, for how many times? look at the bigger picture, agri business is a massive contributor to Thai employment in supporting business, bleed agriculture and the rural areas dry and the country stagnates.

Carry on guys, see what you wish as always. never capable of absorbing the bigger picture.

Do you know why rice is cheaper in neighbouring countries, because the production costs are lower......how are they advancing, how are the rural communities developing, why do the workers come to Thailand?

Having said 3 or 4 times read the treaty of Rome.....I would bet none of you have......

The snag being that Thailand isn't part of the EEC ... so the Treaty of Rome doesn't apply here.

Couldn't the same objective have been met, that of raising the income of the rice-farmers of Central/Northern Thailand, by continuing the previous administration's policy of paying the farmers their top-up direct, rather than via the millers and middle-men ? Perhaps at a slightly-higher target-price ?

But that wouldn't have rewarded the regional power-brokers, who delivered the vote to PTP, or have looked as impressive on the pre-election posters, and even-worse that wouldn't have recalled the old TRT way-of-doing-things.

Meanwhile all the other poor farmers, growing rubber or fruit or palm-oil, see their markets fall with no government efforts to support them, apart from the helpful advice to grub-out their trees and start again.

But perhaps the government's policy-makers don't focus on manipulating the markets (to use former-PM Thaksin's own memorable phrase) in those other crops, in the way that they do with rice ? Some might wonder why ever not ?

My understanding is that the red shirt organization - one group who doubtless helped 'deliver the vote to PTP' - has openly disagreed with the rice pledging scheme. Is this true? And if so, is Thaksin really pulling their strings given that it is diametrically opposed to his stance?

Please enlighten me, if you can. Cheers.

[Buchholz]

Nigeria claim stirs exporters

Rice exporters have called for the government urgently to clarify to Nigeria that Thailand is not selling old rice to the African country.

Nigeria's claim that it has received rice from crops dated up to 10 years ago has damaged the Kingdom's image as the world's leading rice exporter, they say.

The Nigerian government has said it will reduce imports of Thai and Indian rice as the two countries have shipped it old rice.

Nigeria would rely more on growing its own rice to supply its domestic market.

Chookiat Ophaswongse, honorary President of the Thai Rice Exporters Association, said the Foreign Trade Department, which is directly responsible for rice trading, should immediately confirm to Nigeria and the world market that Thailand has not exported old rice.

Normally, Nigeria buys parboiled rice, which needs to be produced with newly harvested rice. It is impossible for Thailand to ship old rice to Nigeria as it alleges, he said.

Nigeria demands about a million tonnes of foreign rice each year, mostly parboiled rice, with about 300,000-400,000 tonnes supplied by Thailand.

According to the Commerce Ministry, Thailand shipped out 4.4 million tonnes of white and parboiled rice from January 1 to November 12.

Including jasmine rice, that brings the total to between 5.7 million and 5.8 million tonnes during the period.

-- The Nation 2012-11-20

[Buchholz]

Rise in graft cases, jump in government debts seen if policy stays

The government's insistence on extending the rice-pledging programme will add to the 100 cases of corruption already being investigated by the National Anti-Corruption Commission, as the project contains many loopholes for the agencies involved in the programme to benefit from, the NACC said yesterday.

Moreover, leading economists claim that continuation of such a high-subsidy scheme will lead to the country facing overwhelming debts as a result of programme losses and subsidies. They suggest the government should limit the overall volume of subsidized rice and return to a price-guarantee regime instead to control the losses.

Sirilaksana Khoman, Senior Adviser at the Office of the NACC, told a seminar that the agency was in the process of investigating in depth some 100 cases of corruption at almost every stage of the rice-pledging scheme.

Most of the cases concern local administrations.

Although in some instances relatively small amounts of money were involved, local government officials had chosen not to investigate the irregularities, besides which there were conflicts of interest surrounding the programme, she said.

"The government accepts that there are loopholes in the project at every stage of the process, and says it is considering protection measures," Siri-laksana said, but added that her office did not agree with the government's basic approach to the problem.

She said the government claimed that its price-subsidy programme relied on the market mechanism as well as the development of the community futures market. However, she said there was no such system relating to the pledging scheme and called the claim "propaganda".

Instead, the government purchases rice, which it then warehouses in a huge stockpile to allow many agencies to reap benefits from the scheme, Sirilaksana said.

Moreover, she said corruption at the policy level was not easy to rein in. The office is working to arrest graft not only concerning the pledging process itself, but also among the network of involved people, she added.

The NACC Adviser said that if the government was not prepared to cancel the policy, it should limit the pledging volume and the types of rice covered by the scheme.

In addition, details of rice exports under government-to-government deals should be opened up to the public as well as to agencies, including the Finance Ministry, the Office of the Auditor-General, and the NACC, so that they can explain the matter to taxpayers.

Former deputy prime minister and finance minister MR Pridiyathorn Devakula suggested at the seminar that the government should stop all price pledging for rice and go back to a price-guarantee system, as had been instituted under the previous Democrat Party-led administration.

"If the government continues to proceed with the policy, Thailand will face an overwhelming debt and it will have an indirect impact on the instability of our currency," he said.

"I think the government's team of economic advisers doesn't think deeply enough, while some experts [in the government] have good ideas but do nothing, and instead follow the government's line."

The Democrat-led government had spent Bt60 billion on its price-guarantee policy without incurring any other expenses, said Pridiyathorn.

That level of expenditure under such a scheme would allow small farmers to directly enjoy a price subsidy without the national ratio of debt to gross domestic product becoming too high, he said, lamenting the fact that the pledging policy had allowed big farmers to reap the benefits of high-price intervention.

He estimated that the government's pledging-policy loss for 2011-12 rice production would reach Bt140 billion, and that the loss would rise to Bt210 billion for next year's output.

Nipon Poapongsakorn, leading economist at the Thailand Development Research Institute, said the government policy had directly affected taxpayers and put the country's rice export business at risk.

The institute estimates that the government will make a policy-related loss of Bt170 billion for this year's rice production.

Moreover, if the government's export price is lower than that of Vietnam, the loss will be even bigger, he said.

-- The Nation 2012-11-20

[MAJIC]

"He would say that wouldn't he"

Mandy Rice - Davies (The 60s Profumo scandal)

[waza]

Before my topic was closed (which was opened 40 minutes before The Nation published their article), it showed the full story - not only that Thaksin defended the rice pledging programme, but that he denied wrongdoing in his crimes which he has been charged and sentenced for. He stated the charges were politically motivated.

He also stated that he felt he should be allowed back into Thai poltiics, and should not be made to serve time for his crimes, as he had done nothing wrong.

This article produced by the nation has been manipulated and the quotations from the original interview have been chosen specifically to be pro-government PTP. Interesting how censorship and propaganda is being used in the country currently, with the government understanding that only a small percentage of the country can speak english and have access to neutral media outlets.

sorry to hear that

[Buchholz]

Rise in graft cases, jump in government debts seen if policy stays

The government's insistence on extending the rice-pledging programme will add to the 100 cases of corruption already being investigated by the National Anti-Corruption Commission

estimated that the government's pledging-policy loss for 2011-12 rice production would reach Bt140 billion, and that the loss would rise to Bt210 billion for next year's output.

Nipon Poapongsakorn, leading economist at the Thailand Development Research Institute, said the government policy had directly affected taxpayers and put the country's rice export business at risk.

The institute estimates that the government will make a policy-related loss of Bt170 billion for this year's rice production.

Not an insignificant number of corruption cases and accompanying amounts of taxpayers' money.

.

[Soupdragon]

I am absolutely dumbfounded how a country can have no mechanisms in place to prevent this wholesale plunder of national assets.

[waza]

I am absolutely dumbfounded how a country can have no mechanisms in place to prevent this wholesale plunder of national assets.

The growing coalition against corruption in Thailand will get a major boost on Thursday, when the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) and the Anti-Corruption Network will sign a partnership declaration at the Sathornthani Centre of Rangsit University.

Corruption is a serious and systemic problem in Thailand. A recent ABAC poll reported that a majority (63.4 per cent) of Thai people still hold the view that corruption in government is acceptable as long as they also benefit from it. A majority of young people also now share this view.

The new partnership aims to promote regular dialogue and strategy on fighting corruption, the development of public advocacy campaigns, and knowledge sharing in raising public awareness and building capacity of organisations within the expanding network.

The Anti-Corruption Network (ACN) is a private sector group led by a consortium of Thai businessmen and more than 30 industry associations, which include the Thai Chamber of Commerce, the Thai Bankers' Association, the Federation of Thai Industries, and the Stock Exchange of Thailand (SET). http://www.nationmul...n-30188851.html

Its a pity the government is getting involved in the anti-corruption movement beyond rhetoric and active participation.

Recently Thailand’s Prime Minister Yingluck Shinatwatra launched an anti-corruption campaign of her government. Her pledges are timely, especially when Thailand is seeking foreign trade and investments. http://thailandnewsw...on-at-the-core/

[Soupdragon]

I am absolutely dumbfounded how a country can have no mechanisms in place to prevent this wholesale plunder of national assets.

The growing coalition against corruption in Thailand will get a major boost on Thursday, when the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) and the Anti-Corruption Network will sign a partnership declaration at the Sathornthani Centre of Rangsit University.

Corruption is a serious and systemic problem in Thailand. A recent ABAC poll reported that a majority (63.4 per cent) of Thai people still hold the view that corruption in government is acceptable as long as they also benefit from it. A majority of young people also now share this view.

The new partnership aims to promote regular dialogue and strategy on fighting corruption, the development of public advocacy campaigns, and knowledge sharing in raising public awareness and building capacity of organisations within the expanding network.

The Anti-Corruption Network (ACN) is a private sector group led by a consortium of Thai businessmen and more than 30 industry associations, which include the Thai Chamber of Commerce, the Thai Bankers' Association, the Federation of Thai Industries, and the Stock Exchange of Thailand (SET). http://www.nationmul...n-30188851.html

Its a pity the government is getting involved in the anti-corruption movement beyond rhetoric and active participation.

Recently Thailand’s Prime Minister Yingluck Shinatwatra launched an anti-corruption campaign of her government. Her pledges are timely, especially when Thailand is seeking foreign trade and investments. http://thailandnewsw...on-at-the-core/

Cheers for that.

I am no stranger to Thailand and the endemic corruption having lived here throughout Mr Ts rise and fall. The point I was making is the sheer unmitigated greed, to the point where the very security of the country, fiscally and physically are threatened so a few who have so much already can have more. It truly baffles me.

[lungmi]

Remark from the countryside:

The rice price-pledging programme is successfull in my area. We have a coop with a danish instructed manager.

The farmers connected to the coop have 12000 Baht for middle quality rice and bio-fertilizers free.

The rice-mill is part of the coop.The coop gives instruction (free) for bio-rice. High quality. I eat to stop cholesterol.

Re-tailers from Lampang come to fill their stocks. In Lampang with the mafia of rice-millers they never know the price and the quality of the selled rice.

Small information. Not everything is bad in Thailand

[lizardtongue]

Why on earth do the media continue to print anything the fugitive has to say? It wouldn't be too difficult to censor him. If he is so happy with his life etc maybe he should just get on with what is left of it, at 63 he might have another 10 years left in him, he is single you would think he would get little sister to put him touch with a few of her friends and enjoy life?

[Skywalker69]

Why on earth do the media continue to print anything the fugitive has to say? It wouldn't be too difficult to censor him. If he is so happy with his life etc maybe he should just get on with what is left of it, at 63 he might have another 10 years left in him, he is single you would think he would get little sister to put him touch with a few of her friends and enjoy life?

Wrong Thaksin has young beautiful girfriend Lydia

[SuperScouse]

Well said, Soupdragon. Waza, suggest you do some independent research! I'm neither Red nor Yellow, I recently left Thailand (after many years) because there is no hope for the country until corruption is sorted out, and the only way to achieve that is through a sound education system. (And, yes, I know, pretty much every country is corrupt!)

For the staunchly pro-yellows, it's probably best to read an unofficial biography of a certain person. It's a handley (sorry, handy) read, I assure you.

For the staunchly pro-reds, how can you explain a certain person saying (don't bother asking for links, just use google and you-tube) to the heartfelt plees of a peasant woman asking why he had been quiet for a few days, hadn't 'phoned-in' admist rumours that he was a little over-weight and looking unwell, 'Don't worry about me, I've been in Russia, and I simply drank too much champagne and ate too much caviar' (words to that affect). Truly a working-class hero.

[Buchholz]

Link to news photo:

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/worker-carries-bag-milled-rice-mill-suphan-buri-photo-234819266.html

A worker carries a bag of milled rice at a mill in Suphan Buri province, February 6, 2013.

Thailand's generous rice subsidy scheme has hit funding problems, marking a new threat to a policy that wins millions of rural votes for the government, but which has generated huge stockpiles, sparked graft allegations and unnerved markets.

REUTERS

.

[Buchholz]

Funding woes spell more trouble for Thai rice scheme

Thailand's generous rice subsidy scheme has hit funding problems, marking a new threat to a policy that wins millions of rural votes for the government, but which has generated huge stockpiles, sparked graft allegations, and unnerved markets.

PM Yingluck Shinawatra came into power in 2011 on a promise to pay farmers way above what was then the market rate for their rice, and the intervention has gone on even though it has priced Thai rice out of the international market. The policy has knocked Thailand off its perch as the world's top rice exporter and built up stockpiles of around 17 million tonnes of milled rice, or nearly twice what it exports normally, leaving authorities struggling to find warehouse space, and the threat of rice being dumped on the world market at a loss.

Now officials and bankers say the government has paid less than a sixth of what it owes a state bank funding the intervention programme, piling more pressure on the scheme. "We have informed the government and we expect the cabinet to make a decision to do something very quickly, otherwise there could be a major problem," Bank of Agriculture and Agricultural Cooperatives Vice-President Supat Eauchai told Reuters.

Continued:

http://en-maktoob.ne...--business.html

Reuters - Feb. 7, 2013

[AleG]

Well.. surprise surprise!

Cue the PTP fans to wax poetic about their economics achievements.

[billd766]

Where are the defenders of the Red faith?