Appeal - Scared To Post - Need Advice

[the scouser]

Two points here...

firstly, the mention of judicial review in a solicitors letter to the Embassy is, according to the Diplomatic Services Protocol, supposed to lead to the matter being referred to UK Visas and also if it appears likely that the applicant has a case, then they will/must prepare the papers quickly becuase it can go to review in a couple of weeks and they must be prepared otherwise they risk losing by default.

secondly, if a decision can be seen as manifestly unfair it can be taken to judicial review and will be accepted by the judge. It doesn't matter that it hasn't gone to appeal if there is a prima facie case for injustice. Of course you must have a strong case to start with.

SILOMFAN

Now, I don't wish to blind anyone with Latin, but the whole point about judical review is that the claimant has to display that the respondent has acted "ultra vires"; i.e. outside of his powers. Whilst there is an appeal right outstanding, the respondent can't have acted in an ultra vires fashion, otherwise he wouldn't have given the appellant a right of appeal: dead simple, really. However, you are right, that where the breach is so flagrant, recompense can be sought at the earliest opportunity, but that's what I meant by "generally".

By the way, the reason why threatened JR cases are referred to UK Visas is solely for them to collate the statistics. Ultimately, it is the Treasury Solicitors (T.Sol) who will dictate whether the original decision is defensible or not. Certainly, when JR cases are two-a-penny, they cease to have much relevance and are definitely not a panacea!

Scouse.

[lamonster]

Well this all sounds like another case of a feckwit ECO going out of their way to refuse the visa - initials would be J# by any chance?

I have also started the appeals process after my fiancee was refused on very similar grounds. The appeal went in around mid Jan and the Embassy in BKK have until June to get their case together - I used a solicitor to do the paperwork side of things but from what I saw of the solicitors handywork there wasn't much to it - but I guess it helps having everything in the right legal framework. Shame it all has to take a year to get in front of a judge - at least it gives me chance to save up my lawyers fees

I also had written two emails and letters to the ECM in BKK - which like Scouse says from his experience - were knocked back with bog standard "booger off and appeal" type email from the ECM - as I had basically called the ECO an incompetant muppet in one letter I sent the ECM I would have expected a bit more of a response if they had actually read the letters!

I've now sent UK Visas another letter outlinging my case and am waiting to see what they will do.

If nothing else it gave me something else to do while I wait for the bureaucracy wheels to start turning.

So if you are chaffing at the bit I would suggest writting a couple of letters as outlined in the other posts, I don't think it can hurt your case in either case - as long as you don't write anything too nasty

Good Luck with the appeal!

[Philbot44]

At last some other guy having the same problem (sure there must be moe out there?) in fact I think its working for the embassy, if they refuse 100 on the grounds of no reason and only 2 ppl appeal thats looking pretty good for thier figures.. go on guys dont be scared appeal!!

Can we creat an appeal section on this forum? perhaps it might encourage others to do the same and only then will they start to think there is something dreadfully wrong with this system?

Unless thier logic being "Refusal 1st time so he will think I dont need all this hassle syndrome" is ther best line of defence?

If you want to change things then I suggest you fight back and not bow down to thier under handed tactics.. as one as already said, most people do not have time to be bothered with compliants so get writting instead of walking away or putting your love one through another ordeal jsut becos of it!!

I think most people are really put of by the fact that it may cost them money but if u have none you can apply for aid and its free. If u have some then dont get a lawer cos you will have enough good sense to be able to act for yourself.

Remember it cost them money too and in this day and age they all have budgets so if the cost of appeals is rising then it gets noticed and they will do something about it I am sure !!

So if you feel u have been treated badly by he embassy and not sure to appeal say so lets get a measure now about it and start to really create some waves!!

Im sure the owner of this site could start a special section for these types of things or maybe it really is just me and the guy above!! and 95% of peopel really do get visa's

[lamonster]

Im sure the owner of this site could start a special section for these types of things or maybe it really is just me and the guy above!! and 95% of peopel really do get visa's

I know many people do get visa with no problems whatsoever, but there do appear to be a lot of cases that get refused for no apparent reason. My solicitor (and the other one I went to get an opinion from in swanky London offices - not that proves anything) were both really shocked by the decision - i.e. everything in the refusal was either refuted during the interview, had evidence to the contrary in the folders or just had no basis in law! Maybe we were just unlucky and got the same chap that like a few too many Changs the night before. I have a few Nigerian friends who have had same problems with getting visas for their families in the past and they told me a lot of the time they want to refuse you to see if you will apply and prove you are serious - I doubt this is an official policy but - hey I wouldn't put it past them, at best it would mean paying out another 300 notes to reapply.

If UK visas don't do the right thing I will be off to my MP - it might not do any good but the more I can stir the pot up the better.

Sorry if I am repeating myself.

[Philbot44]

Ok great news I said I would keep you up todate. After being advised a little from Scouser about how to write to the Embassy 1 week after sending the email the ECM wrote back and have overtuned the refusal decision and will be contacting my fiancee real soon yipee!!

So we are deep in your debt Scouser!! No really many thanks for all your help here and it proves that they are human and thats all I would like to say on the matter..

Good luck to you all too

Edited February 10, 2006 by Philbot44

[Rj 81]

Congratulations

A real big well done to you and yours.

[Jersey_UK]

Ok great news I said I would keep you up todate. After being advised a little from Scouser about how to write to the Embassy 1 week after sending the email the ECM wrote back and have overtuned the refusal decision and will be contacting my fiancee real soon yipee!!

So we are deep in your debt Scouser!! No really many thanks for all your help here and it proves that they are human and thats all I would like to say on the matter..

Good luck to you all too

Congrats!!

[silomfan]

Ok great news I said I would keep you up todate. After being advised a little from Scouser about how to write to the Embassy 1 week after sending the email the ECM wrote back and have overtuned the refusal decision and will be contacting my fiancee real soon yipee!!

So we are deep in your debt Scouser!! No really many thanks for all your help here and it proves that they are human and thats all I would like to say on the matter..

Good luck to you all too

Yes thats great news , but it doesn't change the fact that they shouldn't have refused in the first place does it?? Just because they have finally given you the visa you were entitled to all along , does that mean you are now going to forget the anguish they put you through?? You should still complain to your MP and UK Visas citing the Bangkok Embassy in your correspondance. As has been said on this thread already, only by people constantly complaining and appealing at great expense to the British Government will there be any chance that one day a complete overhaul of this chaotic and unfair system may take place.

Did they give you a full apology or compensation for all this hassle ?? No of course they didn't. So why be grateful that you have been grudgingly given something you should have had by right anyway??

SILOMFAN

[Jersey_UK]

Yes thats great news , but it doesn't change the fact that they shouldn't have refused in the first place does it?? Just because they have finally given you the visa you were entitled to all along , does that mean you are now going to forget the anguish they put you through?? You should still complain to your MP and UK Visas citing the Bangkok Embassy in your correspondance. As has been said on this thread already, only by people constantly complaining and appealing at great expense to the British Government will there be any chance that one day a complete overhaul of this chaotic and unfair system may take place.

Did they give you a full apology or compensation for all this hassle ?? No of course they didn't. So why be grateful that you have been grudgingly given something you should have had by right anyway??

SILOMFAN

Not meant to be argumentative here, but at least he had an ability to appeal........in Jersey we don't! (and folk think we are British! - I used to as well, many years ago.........but that is for another thread!) - although I am actually ambivalent about this, I would like a right of appeal for ME, but I do NOT want to pay for other folk .

Having said that, I have just re-read the form that goes to Jersey Immigration (In addition to the English Embassy stuff) and it says "you MAY be asked to call at the IND to attend an interview", which I would be more than happy to do and as it appears to be the case that I have a snowballs chance in hel_l of being able to talk to an ECO in BKK I think I rate this as in practice potentially more useful than a right of appeal, as it may give me the chance to explain / clarify stuff easily or at the least FULLY understand the reason for refusal.

[Philbot44]

Yes thats great news , but it doesn't change the fact that they shouldn't have refused in the first place does it?? Just because they have finally given you the visa you were entitled to all along , does that mean you are now going to forget the anguish they put you through?? You should still complain to your MP and UK Visas citing the Bangkok Embassy in your correspondance. As has been said on this thread already, only by people constantly complaining and appealing at great expense to the British Government will there be any chance that one day a complete overhaul of this chaotic and unfair system may take place.

Did they give you a full apology or compensation for all this hassle ?? No of course they didn't. So why be grateful that you have been grudgingly given something you should have had by right anyway??

SILOMFAN

No SILOMFAN I will certianly not forget it. I was there specially for her so we could travel back to uk now she will have to manage the journey alone and ok so we had to wait a further 1 or 2 months.

I have never really had to deal with (civil servants) in such a way as this before and yes now I understand why so many ppl get annoyed with it all.. However I am also not one to go marching down to No 10 downing street!! I have already washed my dirty linen on this forum and so glad that I have becuse if i handnt I might still be waiting now (I did not get a solicitor and I did not see an MP= another civil servant). This post is here for people to learn from and all I can hope is that IF more people appeal then things can only get better.

If you want to be the man fine you can have all my info gladly but tbh I have had a long hard slog to get this far and no im not selfish person but why should I now spend time campaining for others I need a break ths has drained me and I am so glad to walk away from it all, why would I now want to start a fight with the establishment!! I am sure things will change one day but I very much doubt it will ever be due to me (Mr Average).

Now I want to get on with my life and forget about all the Hoops I have had to jump through to get here.. is that too much to ask ? I do understand what you are saying but we people are not all the same which is a great thing but also one of the reasons we have all probably posted on these forums

[GU22]

Philbot,

Congratulations and all the best for your future life together.

I know this has been a difficult time for you, but must add that your case shows that the system, though far from perfect, does work. It also gives the lie to the assertion made elsewhere that the ECM in Bangkok never overturns an ECO's decision. I appreciate that this is no consolation to you, and does not compensate for the difficulties you have faced.

However, as I have said before, no system is perfect and mistakes will be made. As your situation proves there are ways currently in place for correcting those mistakes. Although many here have argued for a "better and fairer" system, no one has yet come up with any practical suggestions as to how that system would work.

I wish all the luck in the world to those who wish to lobby their MPs to bring about change, but would also like to remind them of the following proverb:-

Lord, grant me the courage to change the things I can, the serenity to accept the things I can't, and the wisdom to tell the difference.

[caledonia]

Well what an excellent result - you must be really chuffed that the ECM came back with that. Hey maybe she had a read on here and didn't like it being said she never overturned decisions - you never know!!

Anyway congratulations and what a fantastic result - so much easier than the stress of an appeal!

[silomfan]

Hmmmmm, well i take your point that , in this busy world we all live in , its all too easy to say "well my life is sorted now " and sit back and let others fight the cause. I am not blaming you as this is human nature . GU22's quote is a famous one and always draws applause , however used in the context he is using it , suggests that we should all be content knowing we can't change this system . We can if we fight it in numbers. Governments rarely listen to one lone voice but will pay more attention when their MP's surgeries are clogged up with immigration complaints .

Don't forget that , but for the ECM overturning it , you would be in a long queue for the appeal. You are lucky , but others on a different day would be less lucky . This is a very unfair system with not enough safeguards. I am one of the "....my life is sorted now ..." brigade having got the visa i needed for my partner . However i won't forget how we were kept apart for one year , nor will i lose my natural fighting instinct to attack beurocracy where i see injustice being done.

I will continue my lone fight against our unfair immigration system (as regards Thailand which is the only bit i have experience of) . The inconvenience and expense I will cause the establishment over the coming years will give me some satisfaction as a payback for the inconvenience and expense they caused me . Childish ??....maybe .... but spineless i am not .

SILOMFAN

[Rj 81]

I will continue my lone fight against our unfair immigration system (as regards Thailand which is the only bit i have experience of) . The inconvenience and expense I will cause the establishment over the coming years will give me some satisfaction as a payback for the inconvenience and expense they caused me . Childish ??....maybe .... but spineless i am not .

SILOMFAN

Go on Silom lad, get stuck in there!

[Prakanong2005]

Ok great news I said I would keep you up todate. After being advised a little from Scouser about how to write to the Embassy 1 week after sending the email the ECM wrote back and have overtuned the refusal decision and will be contacting my fiancee real soon yipee!!

So we are deep in your debt Scouser!! No really many thanks for all your help here and it proves that they are human and thats all I would like to say on the matter..

Good luck to you all too

Congratulations and good luck to you both.

[GU22]

GU22's quote is a famous one and always draws applause , however used in the context he is using it , suggests that we should all be content knowing we can't change this system . We can if we fight it in numbers. Governments rarely listen to one lone voice but will pay more attention when their MP's surgeries are clogged up with immigration complaints .

Look at Entry Clearance Statistics 2004/5 (page 9) Worldwide totals: Applications 2,544,352; Refused 483,457. Now, if all those refused were sponsored by a UK voter and if that voter complained to their MP then maybe it would be noticed. But even if that were to happen I am sure that in the vast majority of cases the MP's reply would be that the application did not meet the requirements of the Immigration Rules and so the refusal was correct. So, you may say "Then let's get the rules changed!" Ain't going to happen. Most UK voters, of whatever ethnicity, if pressed would vote to have the rules tightened, not eased!

This is a very unfair system......

So, how would you make it fairer? I've asked you this before, but you have yet to come up with a workable alternative to the present system.

.....with not enough safeguards

Apart from the monitoring and regular performance reviews that all civil servants are subject to, their is the right to ask the ECM to review the ECO's decision and if that fails the right of appeal to an independent body. What other safeguards would you suggest?

I am one of the "....my life is sorted now ..." brigade having got the visa i needed for my partner . However i won't forget how we were kept apart for one year

It is true that the Immigration Rules used to be discriminatory toward same sex couples, but as you know this has now changed. However, if I remember your earlier posts correctly, the primary cause of your partners visa difficulties were his previous breaches of the Immigration Rules!

I will continue my lone fight against our unfair immigration system (as regards Thailand which is the only bit i have experience of)

The rules are the same worldwide. Back to the figures. Worldwide refusal percentage, 19%; Thailand refusal percentage, 5.9%. Way below the average, so it looks like Thailand is one of the easier posts to get a visa from.

The inconvenience and expense I will cause the establishment over the coming years will give me some satisfaction as a payback for the inconvenience and expense they caused me

I'm sorry, mate, but the phrase Farting into a hurricane springs to mind.

But, good luck anyway. Remember, though, simply complaining that it's unfair is no good. You need to come up with a workable alternative if you are going to stand a chance of getting any change.

[Rj 81]

Here's a few things I would like to see improved;

1, Get proper translators, ie, people who are FLUENT in both languages be there nationality Thai or English.

2, Tell people how they want the paperwork presented, instead of sending people to the back of the que to take out everything when it was already in order, in clear plastic sheets. The word "Humiliating" comes to mind.

3, Allow sponsors into the Embassy, and for SV interviews I think they should be in the interview aswell.

4, Get more staff, so people are not having to wait outside the Embassy from stupid o'clock the morning. This would not happen in the UK.

5, Make the whole process of applying far more clear and precise as to exactly what they want from you. GU22, you can post a link saying it tells you "exactly what they require here"

but if it was that clear, this forum wouldn't even exist would it?

Changing the whole system maybe not, but changing the way they go about implementing it, a definate, Yes.

[GU22]

1, Get proper translators, ie, people who are FLUENT in both languages be there nationality Thai or English.

I agree that, from what I have heard, the translators at the Bangkok embassy are not always up to scratch. But from anecdotal evidence it seems to be their attitude rather than their proficiency in English that is the problem. Although my wife had no problem with the one at her interview, who was, she tells me, very friendly.

2, Tell people how they want the paperwork presented, instead of sending people to the back of the que to take out everything when it was already in order, in clear plastic sheets. The word "Humiliating" comes to mind.

If the evidence folder is presented neatly and in order then I cannot understand why this would happen. But if you say it did then it must have done.

3, Allow sponsors into the Embassy, and for SV interviews I think they should be in the interview aswell.

Not allowing sponsors into the embassy is a Bangkok thing, and due to lack of space. Hopefully this will soon be resolved when they "contract out" the processing of applications. Interviewing the applicant and, if necessary, the sponsor separately is a standard procedure and done to prevent prompting and collusion.

4, Get more staff, so people are not having to wait outside the Embassy from stupid o'clock the morning. This would not happen in the UK.

You have obviously never had to visit a busy public office of any government department in the UK. Look at the queue outside the PEO in Croydon, or any DSS office, first thing in the morning.

Over 2,200 staff are directly involved in the overseas visa operation of whom around 222 work in London. Visa sections around the world employ 886 UK-based staff drawn from the Foreign and Commonwealth Office and from the Home Office and more than one thousand are locally engaged. (Source) If you can persuade the British taxpayer that it is worth spending more on visa staff and less on, for example, nurses or teachers, then good luck to you.

5, Make the whole process of applying far more clear and precise as to exactly what they want from you. GU22, you can post a link saying it tells you "exactly what they require here" but if it was that clear, this forum wouldn't even exist would it?

Every case is different and so flexibility needs to be built into the system to make it fair. I have never said that there is a 'link saying it tells you "exactly what they require here"' I have said that the guidance notes give just that, guidance. Applicants should provide the documents that apply to their individual situation. Because of this some people do need help and assistance and so there is a need for forums such as this. That would still be the case regardless of the system.

Silomfan has also suggested that they should tell you exactly what documents you need and that if you have those documents you get the visa. Sounds good, but what if you don't have or cannot provide those documents?

For example. Reason to return. If the system was as rigid as you suggest then if an applicant could provide a letter, or similar, from an employer or educational institute then they would get the visa, but if they couldn't then they wouldn't! Under the present system, if the applicant cannot provide such documents then they are interviewed and if they can show the ECO that they are a genuine person with a genuine reason to visit the UK (e.g. to visit the family of their long term boy/girlfriend, {not someone they've only known for a few weeks!}), then the chances are they will get their visa.

Having a rigid list of documents means that this discretion by the ECO is removed and so far more people would be refused on the technicality of not having the correct bits of paper.

How is that more fair?

Changing the whole system maybe not, but changing the way they go about implementing it, a definate, Yes.

No system is perfect, and there is always room for improvement, I agree. But change simply for the sake of change never works.

[DavieA]

ok here goes if you think too much detail please tell me and I will remove.

Hi,

Just need a bit of advise/hope or whatever you may want to call it!!

My g/f recently had an interview this year for fiancé visa and was refused.

The reason for refusal was that they say she not know me and her intentions were not to marry etc. and that insufficient documentary evidence to show contact during the times I was back home (if you need the exact words I can email them to you).

Now I have since got hold of a copy of the interview notes and as far as I am aware (I should know myself) she had answered all the questions about my life in my country correctly so not sure how they can say she not know about my life here they grilled her as she was in there for 50 minutes too

As for the evidence of contact in the 8 months I have known here I have been in Thailand for almost half of this time which if they had checked the visa stamps from my passport they may have realised this too.

The final thing that annoyed me most was their comments about lack of documentary evidence to show contact. They asked her for her mobile number which she provided and then asked her how we keep in contact. She replied by phone SMS’s and email (her idea of email being web cam chat on msn) I also provide all my mobile and landline bills which showed I rang her 4 or 5 times a day for an average time of 2 hrs per day.

However all this was a waste of time as we assumed that the ECO would understand that the number on my phone bill were special cheap rate numbers to call Thailand because they proceeded to ask my g/f why the numbers on the phone bill did not match he mobile number. She tried to explain but the ECO reported her response as "No Reply"?

We had already submitted about 2" deep of evidence and thought anymore would be far too much, as usual, hard to decide what is right or wrong when there are no real guidelines of what they really require as evidence.... They also asked for copies of electronic emails? We never send them, as now it’s so cheap to ring so why would anyone want to send emails when you can be talking directly to your partner??

We did write hand letters to each other which were provide at the interview, these were sent when we sent gifts to each other using the postal system I sent 3 to her and she 3 to me, birthday cards, CD gifts and even gifts for my children’s birthday. All of which were supported with envelopes & postmarks.

Point being do we really have to have electronic emails to prove contact when we talk on the phone 2 hours a day??

There was also considerable evidence showing 3 or 4 SMS’s sent daily for all the time I was home.

Hence we decided to appeal this decision and have recently re-sent the phone bills and other SMS evidence with additional supplementary evidence from the companies providing the services for the phone numbers and SMS PC to mobile company, which we used, and further extracts from MSN conversations chats

We decided to send this directly to BKK as we had heard there is a good chance it would be reversed more quickly and avoid having to go to trial?

So to my questions?

1. Is there a good chance it will be reversed?

2. How does it work, does the ECM look at this and decide the ECO may have been a bit harsh and over rule the decision?

3. How long will they take to decide?

4. Do you think they are monitored on targets i.e. number of appealed decisions/ number referred to trail/numbers lost / won etc.?

What I am trying to say is if now its very obvious that we have had a great deal of contact would it be in their interest to overrule as leaving it to go to trail is just more waste of the tax payers money or are these Judges also funded from monies obtained from visa application fees hence the reason they are so expensive now?

Yes I’m angry, and I’m sorry but that refusal broke her heart that day I know I was there waiting when she came out of the Embassy, these girls try so hard to do there best and she did so well. Makes me wonder why she still wants to come to my country when they get treated like that by one of our so-called officials!!!

Ok great news I said I would keep you up todate. After being advised a little from Scouser about how to write to the Embassy 1 week after sending the email the ECM wrote back and have overtuned the refusal decision and will be contacting my fiancee real soon yipee!!

So we are deep in your debt Scouser!! No really many thanks for all your help here and it proves that they are human and thats all I would like to say on the matter..

Good luck to you all too

Sorry dude but I don't know how you got it! From all you've said, I think your very lucky, I personally wouldn't have given it too you if I was the officer. Congratulations anyway, hope it all goes well for you.