New Thai Spellings For 176 Loan Words

[Maestro]

I'm not sure what you are saying. You say it sounds like a T, but then say actually Dt

....

The way I see it, it all depends on which of the three dozen or so different pronunciation guides you are using. It almost seems as if every dictionary publisher and every Thai language school were using its own system.

[dighambara]

Can't find a list of the words/spellings anywhere, anyone have a link?

Is the new spelling going to write the words how Thai people already say them (falling tone on the final syllable 99% of the time) or try to put the stress where an English speaker would put it?

HMMM - ENGLISH or AMERICAN...???

Millions more people speak American style 'English' than the English version. Before you say British English is the proper one - read your history. In America the language was frozen to make it easy for immigrants to learn. In England, it changed drastically.

[RichardinBKK]

This is an intersting thread...a bit myopic and ehtnocentric, but interesting. I am happy to report that i actually can better undersatnd most Bangkok Thais better than those insane accents from, Britain. I know little British "English" but aren't you the guys who make up words that sound like words and ryhme with othher words or some such nonsense? Honestly, I can not undersatnd most of what you say. The Welsh and irish? Forget about it...Impossible! (For an American)

As an American, let me tell you, we have very distinct languages there, and if you tell me you can undersatnd Lousina Cajun slang, you are either one...or a liar. I am a "dam_n yankee" (Boston) and we literaly can not undersatnd what people from the deep south are talking about. happily, we in the "Hub" agree, most of it is not worht knowing anyway.

American English - Zup? Nada Wannaeat? Like? Idunno. Dogs and brew? K.

Again, remind me, your problem with Thai is what again???

[Maestro]

Millions more people speak American style 'English' than the English version. Before you say British English is the proper one - read your history. In America the language was frozen to make it easy for immigrants to learn. In England, it changed drastically.

That's one history book I must have missed. Does the book say in what part of the United States the language was frozen? In the USA I usually hear, for example, "waiting" pronounced as "wading" and I doubt that this pronunciation was ever used in England.

[Maestro]

คอมพิวเตอร์

Computer. I just don't understand why they use the ต when the loanword has a t in it. Why don't they use one of the Thai consonants that actually sounds like a t ?

It would make much more sense.

Loong, since no list of the proposed 176 loan words with new Thai spelling seems to exist I wonder where you got your คอมพิวเตอร์ from. Is it the proposed new spelling for computer, or the current one? I think it would be interesting to discuss the differences between the current and the proposed new spellings.

[DavidHouston]

คอมพิวเตอร์

Computer. I just don't understand why they use the ต when the loanword has a t in it. Why don't they use one of the Thai consonants that actually sounds like a t ?

It would make much more sense.

Loong, since no list of the proposed 176 loan words with new Thai spelling seems to exist I wonder where you got your คอมพิวเตอร์ from. Is it the proposed new spelling for computer, or the current one? I think it would be interesting to discuss the differences between the current and the proposed new spellings.

The canonical Royal Institute Dictionary has "คอมพิวเตอร์ /คอม-พิว-เตอ; คอม-พิ้ว-เต้อ/ {English: computer}"

The Royal Institute's "Dictionary of New Words Volume 2", which reflects the new spelling convention, has "คอมพิวเต้อร์ มาจาก อ. computer"

[Richard W]

Yep it's probably off topic and I may well get flamed but here goes. Scriptura continua benefits no-one. The Thai language in it's written form IMHO has been purposely made difficult and obscure in order to keep the locus of power (education) with the elite who had much more leisure time than Somchai in the paddy field. Even today, the number of taxi drivers for example who can't read directions written in Thai is high. The Thais will not change this language because, I think they are too caught up in an historical retrospective of a 'golden past'.

There was a discussion on scriptura continua some time ago, I think on this forum. The problem now is that there are too many who are functionally literate in the current system and changing from scriptura continua confuses them - they are used to using the gaps as punctuation. Secondary school gives teachers longer to teach Thais not to put gaps between words or syllables - interword gaps are a mark of limited education. The way forward is to start filling lots of the existing gaps with Western punctuation - stories in women's magazines are full of it, so the process has started. (I'm not in a position to comment on comic books.)

A sneaky approach would be to insert narrow spaces. One has to go gently. Early Christian material used inter-word gaps, but that seems to have fallen by the wayside. Allegedly Northern Khmer is supposed to be written with interword gaps because there are almost no fluent readers.

[Richard W]

ตด

Allegedly the loop should be lower in the first in a good font, to maintain its separation from the (caved in) roof of the consonant. In that case, I don't think I've actually seen a good Thai font.

[Richard W]

Really they should do what the Laos have done to their written language -- but if you want support for the idea, never say it that way!

Much better solution: what Vietnam did!

Yeah. Or considering that the Thai alphabet has a much greater tonal and phonemic range than the Latin, perhaps the rest of the world should adapt to that?

Lets add the Lao mai kong first for the (currently) implicit vowel of closed syllables (/o/).

As to simplifying the alphabet - that was tried in the 1940's, and reversed.

[webfact]

ROYAL INSTITUTE

Spellings of English-Thai words not settled

The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Royal Institute secretary general Kanokwalee Chuchaiya said yesterday that correcting the spellings of the 176 words borrowed from the English language so they included tones to reflect how they are pronounced is a huge issue that needs several more steps.

She said the institute was conducting a survey on the issue and would wait for its official result before deciding on future steps.

Once this is done, another opinion poll would be needed to set guidelines on how best to implement the changes, she said.

She also confirmed that the latest edition of the institute's official dictionary would not include the 176 words in question because the manuscript had already been submitted to the printing house.

-- The Nation 2012-10-03

[Thaddeus]

Yep it's probably off topic and I may well get flamed but here goes. Scriptura continua benefits no-one. The Thai language in it's written form IMHO has been purposely made difficult and obscure in order to keep the locus of power (education) with the elite who had much more leisure time than Somchai in the paddy field. Even today, the number of taxi drivers for example who can't read directions written in Thai is high. The Thais will not change this language because, I think they are too caught up in an historical retrospective of a 'golden past'.

Bingo.

And to add to the confusion, they make up rules for languages that aren't even their own, making most of the native speakers of that language shaking their heads in wonderment.

[Thaddeus]

Can't find a list of the words/spellings anywhere, anyone have a link?

Is the new spelling going to write the words how Thai people already say them (falling tone on the final syllable 99% of the time) or try to put the stress where an English speaker would put it?

HMMM - ENGLISH or AMERICAN...???

Millions more people speak American style 'English' than the English version. Before you say British English is the proper one - read your history. In America the language was frozen to make it easy for immigrants to learn. In England, it changed drastically.

Really?

Please define American style English for me, and just when did English spoken in England change drastically?

[JoePai]

All languages evolve over time

[Thaddeus]

All languages evolve over time

When allowed to do so.

[bumpkin]

Which version of the English language are they using as a Standard? There are many versions of English used successfully around the globe by different communities, each with slight variation in spelling, pronunciation, grammar and meaning. It incorporates "foreign" words readily.

The Thai acceptance of new words into their language is a good sign. Slight variations in pronunciation and meaning can be expected.

That is exactly what the English have done with many of the "foreign" words they have absorbed

[bumpkin]

Which version of the English language are they using as a Standard? There are many versions of English used successfully around the globe by different communities, each with slight variation in spelling, pronunciation, grammar and meaning. It incorporates "foreign" words readily.

The Thai acceptance of new words into their language is a good sign. Slight variations in pronunciation and meaning can be expected.

That is exactly what the English have done with many of the "foreign" words they have absorbed

[bumpkin]

All languages evolve over time

When allowed to do so.

Very difficult to prevent it happening.

With global communication, the speed of language evolution will increase and it will become almost impossible to resist.

[DickFarang]

This is an intersting thread...a bit myopic and ehtnocentric, but interesting. I am happy to report that i actually can better undersatnd most Bangkok Thais better than those insane accents from, Britain. I know little British "English" but aren't you the guys who make up words that sound like words and ryhme with othher words or some such nonsense? Honestly, I can not undersatnd most of what you say. The Welsh and irish? Forget about it...Impossible! (For an American)

As an American, let me tell you, we have very distinct languages there, and if you tell me you can undersatnd Lousina Cajun slang, you are either one...or a liar. I am a "dam_n yankee" (Boston) and we literaly can not undersatnd what people from the deep south are talking about. happily, we in the "Hub" agree, most of it is not worht knowing anyway.

American English - Zup? Nada Wannaeat? Like? Idunno. Dogs and brew? K.

Again, remind me, your problem with Thai is what again???

Interesting read.

As a Dutch speaking Belgian I cannot understand most English and American dialects spoken here in Thailand.

East Coast American is still “feasible” for me, but the rest is really problematic.

Some years ago I watched the famous film “Baby Doll” (1956) without subtitles and I did not understand a single word of it.

American porn videos are no better, but who cares about the dialogues in them.

In another classical film “The Postman Always Rings Twice” (1946), I found it very funny when a character suddenly said “Gesundheit” (German for “health”) when the other character sneezed.

[Thaddeus]

In another classical film “The Postman Always Rings Twice” (1946), I found it very funny when a character suddenly said “Gesundheit” (German for “health”) when the other character sneezed.

It surprises me that some find this surprising.

http://german.about.com/library/blvoc_gerloan.htm

Many of the originally German words used are written with the original spelling, we just learn how to pronounce them as they are.

[lounger]

Can't find a list of the words/spellings anywhere, anyone have a link?

Is the new spelling going to write the words how Thai people already say them (falling tone on the final syllable 99% of the time) or try to put the stress where an English speaker would put it?

falling tone when learned from written English as in ba-con. But 99% rising tone or at least high tone, as Singbureee...

[lounger]

Can't find a list of the words/spellings anywhere, anyone have a link?

Is the new spelling going to write the words how Thai people already say them (falling tone on the final syllable 99% of the time) or try to put the stress where an English speaker would put it?

HMMM - ENGLISH or AMERICAN...???

Millions more people speak American style 'English' than the English version. Before you say British English is the proper one - read your history. In America the language was frozen to make it easy for immigrants to learn. In England, it changed drastically.

I havent heardsuch rubbish in ages. There is English and English just as there is American and American. saying the Americans froze the language is potty. The easiest to understand is the taught minimal accent referred to in Uk as 'received English' and doubtless US has its version, rather more Boston than Bronx.

As for the poster who thinks rhyming slang, or Cockney, is meant to be English is deluded. It is a language within a language created to confuse non locals and stop eavedropping by the law or outsifers. Again I guess rap has a similar effect.

[RogueLeader]

Which version of the English language are they using as a Standard? There are many versions of English used successfully around the globe by different communities, each with slight variation in spelling, pronunciation, grammar and meaning. It incorporates "foreign" words readily.

The Thai acceptance of new words into their language is a good sign. Slight variations in pronunciation and meaning can be expected.

That is exactly what the English have done with many of the "foreign" words they have absorbed

The capacity of English to adapt and absorb outside influences is exactly what's made it so enduring as a global lingua franca. When I first learned about the Hindu religion, I realised that it's very similar to English - it doesn't resist or attempt to repel, it just accepts and absorbs,

You can't 'freeze' a language. That's just preposterous. Some phonic 'authorities' such as the Ecole Normale in French, have attempted to enforce linguistic conventions but usage always beats prescription. Always.

[morpheusatloppers]

Thai bus companies cannot even agree on the "anglicisation" of Thai words - I have seen buses with different spellings of place names (Phi-Phi, Pee-Pee, Pipi, etc.) on the SAME VEHICLE. And the placing of an "h" after consonents to add emphasis causes no end of confusion. In the West, "ph" is pronounced as in phone. Thus Phuket is often HILARIOUSLY mispronounced. Maybe they could address THAT first (although I doubt they will).

[Ajaan]

computer คอมพิวเตอร์

In the English pronunciation, is the t aspirated? Myself, I aspirate it, but not all English dictionaries seem to agree:

Cambridge dictionary: http://dictionary.ca...uter?q=computer

Oxford dictionary: http://oald8.oxfordl...ionary/computer

Merriam-Webster dictionary: http://www.merriam-w...ionary/computer

Do you speak a UK dialect of English? In American English, we definitely don't aspirate the "t" in computer, but I believe UK dialects do. Same with the "t" in water...

[SICHONSTEVE]

คอมพิวเตอร์

Computer. I just don't understand why they use the ต when the loanword has a t in it. Why don't they use one of the Thai consonants that actually sounds like a t ?

It would make much more sense.

Yes, and the abreviation for kilometres is GM ie: gor gai - mor mar.

[SICHONSTEVE]

computer คอมพิวเตอร์

In the English pronunciation, is the t aspirated? Myself, I aspirate it, but not all English dictionaries seem to agree:

Cambridge dictionary: http://dictionary.ca...uter?q=computer

Oxford dictionary: http://oald8.oxfordl...ionary/computer

Merriam-Webster dictionary: http://www.merriam-w...ionary/computer

Do you speak a UK dialect of English? In American English, we definitely don't aspirate the "t" in computer, but I believe UK dialects do. Same with the "t" in water...

What do you mean a 'UK dialect of English' - we devised it and you lot messed it up!!!!.

Edited October 7, 2012 by SICHONSTEVE

[RogueLeader]

Do you speak a UK dialect of English? In American English, we definitely don't aspirate the "t" in computer,

No americans pronounce it as a voiced alveolar plosive, not an unaspirated 't'. There's a difference.

[ajarnyai]

computer คอมพิวเตอร์

In the English pronunciation, is the t aspirated? Myself, I aspirate it, but not all English dictionaries seem to agree:

Cambridge dictionary: http://dictionary.ca...uter?q=computer

Oxford dictionary: http://oald8.oxfordl...ionary/computer

Merriam-Webster dictionary: http://www.merriam-w...ionary/computer

Do you speak a UK dialect of English? In American English, we definitely don't aspirate the "t" in computer, but I believe UK dialects do. Same with the "t" in water...

Try saying computer or water slowly and see what happens. Bottle, little, bat and Batman.... There are lot of general tendencies, but few hard and fast rules in spoken English. I think most languages are like that too. I'll say that this computer คอมพิวเตอร์ issue is about the fact that ต is a bit too far away from 't' and any of the 'ท' like sounds would work better. Especially, if you say it slowly.