Aging Chiang Mai Expatriates In Trouble

[Mapguy]

Too many Chiang Mai expatriates need to smell the coffee! Recently, there was a brief discussion of a group formed to help vulnerable older expatriates sort their affairs out. The discussion was closed, but the problem remains.

The expatriate community varies considerably in Chiang Mai. Many are quite well-to-do, but, unfortunately, many are not. Also, unfortunately, "Sh*t happens!" Very regrettably, too many people don't prepare for that. Some are just too optimistic. Some appear to be irresponsible.

Too many expatriates in Chiang Mai seem to live on the edge if not "under the radar." I am astonished, for example, when I see some of the "budgets" trumpeted on TV Chiang Mai. Some become barflies . Others are "sexpats," reaching for boys or broads as well as another beer. Some just get old.

Older expats can be very vulnerable in their dotage. Sadly, many don't seem to understand just how vulnerable they are --- or, in some cases, just how much of a problem they can create for others. Some may have companions (boys and girls), some may have "safety nets" of friends in similar circumstances. Just how safe are those nets? A prime example is older gays and straights who rely upon boy and girl friends who clean out their sponsors once they are unable to care for themselves. And there is vulnerability to other scammers. Some appear quite respectable, especially to newcomers, can be well-marketed and well-organized, and subtle in insinuating themselves into foreigners' wallets. Caveat emptor!

Many expats create their own problems. It appears that many expatriates cheat when it comes to immigration financial requirements. Would you care to audit the pensions and general finances of Americans going to their consulate to get the "pension letter?" The banks are not stupid, either. It really is astonishing how tolerant Thai Immigration is! But such expats are only asking for trouble and, not too arguably, causing trouble for others as the government sours on the impact of irresponsible or dependent foreigners.

The Thai government quite understandably is reticent to take on people with the problems of injury and age when they can't pay for treatment. Hospitals are getting increasingly annoyed with impecunious expats dumped in their emergency rooms.

"Houston! We have a problem!"

For a variety of reasons foreign governments are restricted by their laws or their budgets from helping individuals. Some expatriates hide from the consulates until they get into trouble, maybe found dead in bed. They don't register. Some don't even have current passports anymore, let alone valid visas!! Some no doubt lie through their teeth with their own governments on matters of personal relationships (such as marriage), pensions, health care. Reason? Loss of "old country" benefits while they live abroad. In any case, the consulates are not thrilled to deal with such cases and are no doubt very pleased to have some volunteers deal with these people when they become problems as NancyL's group is trying to help.

An effort to talk about this growing problem openly never gets very far. Too close to home for TV Chiang Mai followers? Not a lot of room for bonhomme! This problem impacts the vulnerable and the general community. Before you take a bite out of your next hamburger, think about it!

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

You identify an important problem,or perhaps a cluster of related problems and the problems are not confined to expats in Chiang Mai.

Do you have any distinctive advice to offer or were you hoping that others would generate ideas?

[cloudhopper]

It's not a "problem", and there is no "solution". It's just "life", about everywhere on the planet.

[smokie36]

Do you feel happier now OP?

[Dante99]

So besides stating the obvious, what are you doing about this Mapguy?

[TommoPhysicist]

Put me down for a 'found dead in bed'.

Sounds like the best way to go.

Even better 'found dead in 20yo gfs bed'

[chiang mai]

A number of thoughts spring to mind, you can't help those who don't want to be helped and natures selection process are two. The rest of us will be fine because we've thought about it before hand and have taken steps to cover the bases.

[Semper]

OP, seriously I don't know what your point is with this. Are you saying that expats who have planned their stay/retirement in this country, should contribute with their money to take care of the expats that didn't made a plan before they came here?

[Rancid]

What the OP says is is quite true, however I doubt the comments will be received enthusiatically. Just look at what a lot of topics on this forum are about, where to buy the cheapest whatever. Seems many are living here on a showstring, in fact knew a guy that found he needed a heart operation, no money, later died. That being said though, can understand why many would prefer to struggle here than exist back home, better quality of life.

[circusman]

Put me down for a 'found dead in bed'.

Sounds like the best way to go.

Even better 'found dead in 20yo gfs bed'

And not only found dead in bed but recently penny-less

[TommoPhysicist]

Put me down for a 'found dead in bed'.

Sounds like the best way to go.

Even better 'found dead in 20yo gfs bed'

And not only found dead in bed but recently penny-less

Well, you wouldn't want to waste your hard-earned by dying before you spent it ...... would you?

[Mapguy]

Seems like the thrust of the responses thus far is frivolous to negative to resigned. Plus a couple of pot shots at me, the messenger. But I haven't seen much else yet.

Have I pointed out the "obvious," as one poster put it? That's called defining the problem. I tried to do that without hurling firebombs at anyone.

What are the answers? I don't have them. I'd like to hear suggestions. The only positive approach that I have seen recently is NancyL's group that Chiang Mai discovered and NancyL tried to describe and clarify . And, almost immediately --- even though some valid concerns were raised about voluntary efforts due to various legal requirements --- the conversation started to deteriorate. Attention all cynics: There ARE good people in this world without ulterior motives. Are they in short supply in Chiang Mai?

Some of the alternatives to solve the problem that I have heard are harsh! Some very harsh; such as, in no particular order:

- Raise the ante for coming to Thailand higher and be rigorous enforcing requirements.

- Enforce existing laws rigorously. I can testify that Thailand's laws are very liberal on immigration and that enforcement is very, very loose compared to other countries.

- Hunt down cheaters and put them on the plane home. Period.

I don't sense a groundswell of support out there for such action. Wonder why?!

To give some perspective on why draconian measures to solve the "expat problem" might be bandied about (and they are in official circles and among many Thai), understand that more than a few Thais are getting just plain pissed off with riff raff landing on their shores feeling they can just "do their thing and <deleted> all, or anything in sight!" (Please don't nail me with this point of view; I am not Thai, and I hope not considered riff raff!) Of course, some people make a lot of money off foreigners wanting to get it off! Anyway --- although I doubt it will happen --- Thailand would not be the first country to put people en mass on airplanes home.

Other alternatives? One is currently in place. The current mode is remarkable tolerance of foreigners who are really --- in my view --- taking extraordinarily selfish advantage of the hospitality of this country. And I am not talking about Pattaya-style hospitality.

As above, I DO have some thoughts on all this: I think Thai immigration and people are remarkably tolerant , but what I happen to think isn't important, so please lay off the ad hominem insults or suspicion of personal motives. Pointless. I certainly don't have any immediate answers. Don't suppose anyone does, but I am not thus far hearing anyone --- repeat, anyone --- even willing to "work the problem," which is what the boss of Mission Control in Houston ordered his people to do when Apollo 13 radioed in distress: "Houston, we have a problem!"

[Beetlejuice]

Unregistered help organisation/groups are not the answer as this leave elderly ex-pats vulerable to scams and exploitation.

The solutions are to make things much more difficult for Westerners to stay in Thailand for the long term.

Presently, farangs can enter and exit the Kingdom at will, with virtually no questions asked. Many seem to forget to go home and end up rooting themselves here without hardly a thought on how they intend to support themselves, perhaps hoping to earn an income by working illegally or charitable hand outs.

My point is that the authorities should not portray Thailand as an appealing retirement destination for people without wealth. Why not bring the Immigration regulations on par with Malaysia or Singapore? Otherwise Thailand will rapidly become a grazing ground for Western economic refugees, which can only bring problems to the Thai authorities and other ex-pats already living here.

While the present laid-back Immigration laws remain in force, these economic refugees will continue to come here, creating an influx of aging problematic farangs with no where to go, no future, begging for help and maybe to die destitute and alone.

As the wise man says; prevention is better than cure.

Edited October 14, 2012 by Beetlejuice

[anselpixel]

Unfortunately, most of us don't know when to fold and walk away.

There are a lot of tasteless jokes on Thaivisa about farang suicides, but I sometimes wonder if those aren't the smart ones.

If you're old and living in Thailand as an expatriate, the chances are very good you don't really have a family you can rely on to ease your way out. It's true some manage to replace that structure with people they find here, but most I've met are pretty much on their own. It's not just a question of money, either. In the end, it's all about whether you can take care of yourself, and if you can't, what will you do?

Let me make this a little more emphatic: among my expat acquaintances who take a letter to Immigration every year, not one would be incapable of meeting the deposit requirement if that became necessary. I'm sure there are people here who can't pass the test, but I don't know them.

Edited October 14, 2012 by anselpixel

[cooked]

Some serious questions here. I think that at the root of the OP's original post is the fact that the 'cheaters' make things difficult for the rest of us. When they get into trouble they frantically telephone all over to get help. I took a lot of trouble to find out what was required to live here legally, I get ฿6000.- more than the legal limit and worry about fluctuations in exchange rates. Many guys read somewhere that you can survive in Thailand with ฿20 000.- a month and just move here, feeling very courageous, healthy and rational. 10 - 20 years down the line these guys are still here but are completely lost, their brains addled with beer/whisky/STDs.

I'll bring you a crate of beer, drive you to immigration (or the airport), but never a S'tang will I give. Sorry about that.

[ARISTIDE]

Or may be a fundraising concert

OP, seriously I don't know what your point is with this. Are you saying that expats who have planned their stay/retirement in this country, should contribute with their money to take care of the expats that didn't made a plan before they came here?

[FredLee]

I have just recently moved here to Chiang Mai, and am not as attuned to things as most posters here. Is this really a problem? Are there any actual figures or facts to back up the claim? How many expats live in Chiang Mai? How many, or what percentage fall into the described category? Using only anectdotal evidence does not really define the problem. Until it is defined, it is diffiult to offer possible solutions.

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

I have just recently moved here to Chiang Mai, and am not as attuned to things as most posters here. Is this really a problem? Are there any actual figures or facts to back up the claim? How many expats live in Chiang Mai? How many, or what percentage fall into the described category? Using only anectdotal evidence does not really define the problem. Until it is defined, it is diffiult to offer possible solutions.

Are you an escaped research scientist!

[TommoPhysicist]

I know loads of guys (and two girls) living in CM on 2 week visa waiver on entry.

They just take a trip to Mae Sai (Thai/Burma) border every two weeks.

You can live quite well in CM on a UK/US pension.

Time for some of you to start minding your own business.

You want to spend a life worrying, worry about yourselves.

@FredLee

Supposedly 100,000+ expats living around CM.

About 20% of those I meet are on the breadline, many are alcoholics (or just incurable drunks).

Edited October 14, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[endure]

I know loads of guys (and two girls) living in CM on 2 week visa waiver on entry.

They just take a trip to Mae Sai (Thai/Burma) border every two weeks.

You can live quite well in CM on a UK/US pension.

Time for some of you to start minding your own business.

You want to spend a life worrying, worry about yourselves.

Wot he said...

[cooked]

I know loads of guys (and two girls) living in CM on 2 week visa waiver on entry.

They just take a trip to Mae Sai (Thai/Burma) border every two weeks.

You can live quite well in CM on a UK/US pension.

Time for some of you to start minding your own business.

You want to spend a life worrying, worry about yourselves.

Wot he said...

One of your naughtier posts I think. Sir.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

- Hunt down cheaters and put them on the plane home. Period.

I don't sense a groundswell of support out there for such action. Wonder why?!

Because it's none of my business, and because I didn't come to Thailand to join some witch hunt.

[hellodolly]

You bring up many good points. Many of these old timers moved here when the exchange rate made them feel rich. It is now down about a quarter of what it was and prices have gone up at least that much. As has been said here many of them have no family for one reason or another. They in all likely hood have no means of support where they came from and wind up here destitute when things go wrong for them.

Then there are the ones who lie to their conciliate about there income. There are the ones with the deposit requirement. The problem is they just borrowed the money for a period of time long enough to satisfy immigration. In reality they are just getting by with out a problem unless an emergency arises. They then find themselves in the emergency rooms with no money to pay for it.

Lanna care is a big help in spite of what mister doom and gloom says. I know of one person got in a accident on his bike broke his leg and went into dementia. They not only visited him even though he made no sense but they helped arrange for a brother to take him back home where he went in a home for people like him.

The one big thing that could be done is to have immigration enforce their rules on income. Ask for proof of income. Improve on the requirements for the deposit requirement. If a person uses the deposit requirement have them show on their 90 day report that they still have at least 75% of the money in the bank. On their 180 day report prove they have 50% and on their 270 day report prove they still have 25% of the income in the bank. We are guests in this country no matter how long we stay here or how much we spend here. As guests we should be prepared for the future what ever it may bring and that includes returning to where we came from.

[uptheos]

The one big thing that could be done is to have immigration enforce their rules on income. Ask for proof of income. Improve on the requirements for the deposit requirement. If a person uses the deposit requirement have them show on their 90 day report that they still have at least 75% of the money in the bank. On their 180 day report prove they have 50% and on their 270 day report prove they still have 25% of the income in the bank. We are guests in this country no matter how long we stay here or how much we spend here. As guests we should be prepared for the future what ever it may bring and that includes returning to where we came from.

Bloody heck dolly, I know you like hanging around immigration, but now things seem to be getting faster for the 90 day reporting, do you really want a process that's almost the same as one year extension renewal?......it would be chaotic.

As you know, anyone here can have a problem and there are people with differing levels of income. I've been here quite some time and I can't recall any farang having an impact on what I do or how I live my life. I don't ask them questions about their personal stuff and I sure as hell would appreciate it if they don't ask me.

Edited October 14, 2012 by uptheos

[Beetlejuice]

I have just recently moved here to Chiang Mai, and am not as attuned to things as most posters here. Is this really a problem? Are there any actual figures or facts to back up the claim? How many expats live in Chiang Mai? How many, or what percentage fall into the described category? Using only anectdotal evidence does not really define the problem. Until it is defined, it is diffiult to offer possible solutions.

It depends on how you define an expat?

In my opinion Thailand expats are foreigners that qualify to stay here long term under the Immigration requirements on a year by year basis, with proper visas obtained from the Immigration departments in the provinces where they reside, not to be confused with the forever tourists that cross borders, sing, juggle their balls, stand on their heads and do anything in order to remain in Thailand.

Any tourist who remains in the Kingdom beyond that of a reasonable period regarded for holidaying and sight seeing and then gets into difficulties should not be entitled to assistance other than perhaps a loan from their embassy or consulate to pay for a plane ticket home, providing that they can offer some security that the loan can be paid back, and this should include any annual expats that can no longer satisfy the Immigration requirements on the following years.

Why? Because these methods would ensure that these persons have adequate funds to sustain here, which is of benefit to them and to everyone else.

Edited October 14, 2012 by Beetlejuice

[jackr]

Too late, the horse has well 'n truly bolted. It has always been this way, but you can blame the one(s) who advertised CM as a retirees' dream for the current oversupply of oldies--'Live here like a king on a grand' and all that jazz! The dropouts making the place look untidy are not my cup of tea, but at the end of the day, who are you to decide who does and doesn't fit? That's down to the Thais and they seem quite content to keep the doors open for now. The alternative is they tighten things up and lose a shed load to Cambodia.

[endure]

I know loads of guys (and two girls) living in CM on 2 week visa waiver on entry.

They just take a trip to Mae Sai (Thai/Burma) border every two weeks.

You can live quite well in CM on a UK/US pension.

Time for some of you to start minding your own business.

You want to spend a life worrying, worry about yourselves.

Wot he said...

One of your naughtier posts I think. Sir.

We are allowed to have opinions - until we're subsumed into The Collective

[Beetlejuice]

Too late, the horse has well 'n truly bolted. It has always been this way, but you can blame the one(s) who advertised CM as a retirees' dream for the current oversupply of oldies--'Live here like a king on a grand' and all that jazz! The dropouts making the place look untidy are not my cup of tea, but at the end of the day, who are you to decide who does and doesn't fit? That's down to the Thais and they seem quite content to keep the doors open for now. The alternative is they tighten things up and lose a shed load to Cambodia.

Agreed.

I know of one group that on their website are claiming that it`s possible to retire in Thailand on $550 per month. Total rubbish.

In some respects Thailand maybe cheaper to live than the West, but it`s certainly not cheap here anymore. Even I have had to make cutbacks and budget myself more and more over the years and I consider myself quite well off, with 2 good pensions and savings.

As for tightening things up and losing a load of economic refugees to Cambodia, than that wouldn`t be a bad thing. Let them go and become someone elses problem.

Edited October 14, 2012 by Beetlejuice

[Dante99]

I have just recently moved here to Chiang Mai, and am not as attuned to things as most posters here. Is this really a problem? Are there any actual figures or facts to back up the claim? How many expats live in Chiang Mai? How many, or what percentage fall into the described category? Using only anectdotal evidence does not really define the problem. Until it is defined, it is diffiult to offer possible solutions.

Good thoughts. There is no problem unless all those terrible things Mapguy referred to are happening in significant numbers. Anybody have any real data?

[Mapguy]

While this discussion is not, certainly , relevant just to Chiang Mai, it is interesting to see some contributors who are not normally visitors. Nonetheless, I do feel that Chiang Mai specifically is a place of concern because of all the hype about the city being senselessly promoted as some sort of sylvan bargain retirement paradise with or without sex a la carte. In some respects, it is sometimes beginning to look more like Fort Lauderdale, Florida, USA, where the chief concern is often where can we use our coupons eating dinner ?? !!