Aging Chiang Mai Expatriates In Trouble

[robblok]

As long as they are here legal what is the point. If they are breaking the rules send them back. But this sounds so elitist, i have more money then you so i am more welcome here. You should just bug off because you make me look bad because i hate poor farangs. Sounds a bit like that.

Everyone could decide how he lives here and what he spends, not up to you. Up to the Thais and as long as you can get a visa your welcome here.

I do think people should get insurance for healthcare and such (especially if they don't have enough savings). Its not a good thing if guys like that are leaving hospitals with bills.

Other then that live and let live.

[Mapguy]

Ah, Dante worries about real data! Fair enough thought. Well, you might have to ask someone like Priceless for numbers ! Anyway --- my apologies to Priceless --- I do appreciate his point of view and the need for a rationale data-supported look at things. However, there is certainly also value in observation and experience, part of the scientific method, after all.

There are data, but numbers are very, very, very fuzzy. The consulates (and Thai Immigration) don't really know the whole picture !!! They make educated guesses! A substantial part of this sloppy scenario is due to people arriving here, melding, disappearing into the bar scene and cheap digs, into the countryside, wherever --- until they have a real problem, end up on the doorstep of some clinic or hospital, and so on. Very sad. And some, tragically, do jump out of windows.

Work the problem! What to do ?!

Edited October 14, 2012 by Mapguy

[BillyBobThai]

Mountain Molehill

[Konini]

I think unmentioned so far, unless I've missed it, but as we all know insurance is the biggest waste of money in anyone's annual budget - until the year they have to make a claim.

[trainman34014]

Maybe it's just me but things don't seem as bad as Magpuy seems to think they are. Perhaps I don't see a lot of these burned out drunkards who can't afford to be ill lining up at Hospitals, or queues of grumpy old men at Consulates waiting to lie about their personal data. I do see a few very scruffy looking dropouts who only appear to own the clothes they are standing up in but hey; I can see that if I go back to my Mother country. I have a wide circle of ex-pat pals who are all retired and they have all come here well equipped for possible disasters. At the end of the day, if people come here and can't hack it for personal or financial reasons they always have the option of going back and living on state handouts in their own country, not that any of that is my business, for who am I to tell anyone where or how they can live.

[elektrified]

I do think people should get insurance for healthcare and such (especially if they don't have enough savings). Its not a good thing if guys like that are leaving hospitals with bills.

I don't think too many Thai hospitals are just letting the ex-pats "leave hospitals with bills." I know a number of them are refusing treatment (other than making the patient comfortable, providing an IV, pain meds, etc.) But no tests, surgery, etc. A doctor friend here told me this.

My friend who is in his 60's, in poor health, and lived in Bangkok for about 13 years before he was down to his last 20 Baht and had to leave, apparently had a heart attack on a plane while waiting for take off at Suvarnabhumi. He was removed from the plane and transported by ambulance to a Bangkok Hospital. They demanded 75,000 Baht before they would treat him. He was able to get someone to put the charge on their credit card. When he was discharged two days later he was handed a bill for another 75,000 Baht. He did not have any money. Two guys transported him home in a mini-van and stayed with him for 2 or 3 days until he was able to come up with the money. They even slept in the van out in front of his house! They told him that they would drive him where ever he needed to go during those 2-3 days in order to raise the cash. The hospital was obviously quite serious about getting paid.

[Beetlejuice]

As long as they are here legal what is the point. If they are breaking the rules send them back. But this sounds so elitist, i have more money then you so i am more welcome here. You should just bug off because you make me look bad because i hate poor farangs. Sounds a bit like that.

Everyone could decide how he lives here and what he spends, not up to you. Up to the Thais and as long as you can get a visa your welcome here.

I do think people should get insurance for healthcare and such (especially if they don't have enough savings). Its not a good thing if guys like that are leaving hospitals with bills.

Other then that live and let live.

You’re missed the plot completely.

We are discussing here the best methods to safeguard the welfare of Westerners who may decide to move to Thailand ill equipped to be able to support themselves and unprepared for the costs of expenditure required here, because we care. Mainly because of exaggerated claims that one can live in Thailand on a shoestring budget and the streets are paved with gold.

In most cases to live long term legally in Thailand means being able to meet the requirements imposed by the Immigration authorities, meaning work permits and having the appropriate funds if not working. These laws are created for our own protection and to help the authorities keep out undesirables, not just for the sake of.

As for; I have more money then you so I am more welcome here, yes, I’m sorry to say, and that’s the deal as harsh as this may sound. I can have the peace of mind that I will not be a burden to anyone or ever have to approach people for handouts and that fact means I am tolerated here.

Welcome to the real world.

Edited October 14, 2012 by Beetlejuice

[NeverSure]

Seems like the thrust of the responses thus far is frivolous to negative to resigned. Plus a couple of pot shots at me, the messenger. But I haven't seen much else yet.

Have I pointed out the "obvious," as one poster put it? That's called defining the problem. I tried to do that without hurling firebombs at anyone.

What are the answers? I don't have them. I'd like to hear suggestions. The only positive approach that I have seen recently is NancyL's group that Chiang Mai discovered and NancyL tried to describe and clarify . And, almost immediately --- even though some valid concerns were raised about voluntary efforts due to various legal requirements --- the conversation started to deteriorate. Attention all cynics: There ARE good people in this world without ulterior motives. Are they in short supply in Chiang Mai?

Some of the alternatives to solve the problem that I have heard are harsh! Some very harsh; such as, in no particular order:

- Raise the ante for coming to Thailand higher and be rigorous enforcing requirements.

- Enforce existing laws rigorously. I can testify that Thailand's laws are very liberal on immigration and that enforcement is very, very loose compared to other countries.

- Hunt down cheaters and put them on the plane home. Period.

I don't sense a groundswell of support out there for such action. Wonder why?!

To give some perspective on why draconian measures to solve the "expat problem" might be bandied about (and they are in official circles and among many Thai), understand that more than a few Thais are getting just plain pissed off with riff raff landing on their shores feeling they can just "do their thing and <deleted> all, or anything in sight!" (Please don't nail me with this point of view; I am not Thai, and I hope not considered riff raff!) Of course, some people make a lot of money off foreigners wanting to get it off! Anyway --- although I doubt it will happen --- Thailand would not be the first country to put people en mass on airplanes home.

Other alternatives? One is currently in place. The current mode is remarkable tolerance of foreigners who are really --- in my view --- taking extraordinarily selfish advantage of the hospitality of this country. And I am not talking about Pattaya-style hospitality.

As above, I DO have some thoughts on all this: I think Thai immigration and people are remarkably tolerant , but what I happen to think isn't important, so please lay off the ad hominem insults or suspicion of personal motives. Pointless. I certainly don't have any immediate answers. Don't suppose anyone does, but I am not thus far hearing anyone --- repeat, anyone --- even willing to "work the problem," which is what the boss of Mission Control in Houston ordered his people to do when Apollo 13 radioed in distress: "Houston, we have a problem!"

I have no problem with your post, and agree that people should think. FIRST, if too many impecunious (well, you started it, LOL) expats start affecting the government, Thailand might tighten up the retirement visa rules to the detriment of all of us.

Laws don't affect the lawless. They just bind the lawful.

Second, many Western countries have safety nets and maybe the very poor expats should consider returning. Many countries have nationalized health care, or in the US, medicare which is cheap for "Medicare Advantage." Maybe the government provides food assistance for any citizen below a certain income. In the US there is SSI for the infirm, and Social Security minimum payments for those 62 and older. Add it all up and one might simply be safer in his home country, especially if living there as inexpensively as possible, in the least expensive areas.

I think it's important for all to ponder.

[moe666]

In the end its no bodies business what these people do, if they get in trouble and you want to help good for you. If you want to write a thread about the problem then fine but no need to inject the stuff about boyfriends and girlfriends and drunks thats their business and none of your unless it affects you someway. I hang with a few older guys who have their butts covered. The ones who come to munch or live on a shoe string are soon figured out and really not welcomed. Why because eventually it will be about loaning them money when they have a down turn and then it never stops.

People have a way to weed the deadbeats out unless they have something to offer to the group,humor, good stories, being a good guy or gal, they soon are not welcomed especially those who never offer to buy a drink, always borrowing money and are just a nusiance. This sounds a bit harsh and it is but be honest No One likes a Deadbeat.

Edited October 14, 2012 by moe666

[moe666]

I do think people should get insurance for healthcare and such (especially if they don't have enough savings). Its not a good thing if guys like that are leaving hospitals with bills.

I don't think too many Thai hospitals are just letting the ex-pats "leave hospitals with bills." I know a number of them are refusing treatment (other than making the patient comfortable, providing an IV, pain meds, etc.) But no tests, surgery, etc. A doctor friend here told me this.

My friend who is in his 60's, in poor health, and lived in Bangkok for about 13 years before he was down to his last 20 Baht and had to leave, apparently had a heart attack on a plane while waiting for take off at Suvarnabhumi. He was removed from the plane and transported by ambulance to a Bangkok Hospital. They demanded 75,000 Baht before they would treat him. He was able to get someone to put the charge on their credit card. When he was discharged two days later he was handed a bill for another 75,000 Baht. He did not have any money. Two guys transported him home in a mini-van and stayed with him for 2 or 3 days until he was able to come up with the money. They even slept in the van out in front of his house! They told him that they would drive him where ever he needed to go during those 2-3 days in order to raise the cash. The hospital was obviously quite serious about getting paid.

Cannot blame them for this, they are not a charity in most cases.

[NeverSure]

I still say that my main concern is that some people become a financial drain on the government, or at least a nuisance by not being able to pay medical bills, etc.

If there's enough of that, I fear that the government will tighten up the rules for retirement visas. They could decide to have a quota, or require health insurance which really isn't available for seniors... Then what happens to those who have big investments and/or a Thai family in LOS?

I agree it's none of my business how others choose to live - until it starts jeopardizing my lifestyle.

[MAJIC]

I haven't seen any practical suggestions to the Expats who are struggling in Changmai problem,and with the fear of a serious illness befalling them, up to now in this Topic.

So I offer this one, which no doubt will be shot down in flames.

What if ? some group of Farangs were to approach the Ministry of Foreign Affairs,together with an Insurance Expert (as a Spokesperson) with a view to explain the situation to them,and ask if there was any possibility that they would consider setting up an official:Health Care Scheme for those Farangs of a certain age could join,on a pay as you go basis.

Similar I believe is available to English Teachers employed, in schools, health schemes?

The nuts and Bolts of such a system,would need in depth discussions,and could be made compulsory,for the whole of Thailand Expats for those at a certain age,threshold. And made part of Visa issue conditions.

I am not an Accountant,and neither have I had any experience of the Insurance Business,but asking the MOFA for a feasability Study,may be beneficial to Thailand,as well as the Expats concerned, I'm sure Thailand doesn't need the hassle of Farangs who can't pay their Hospital Bills,I was thinking of Critical Illness Cover in particular,which would mean a smaller percentage would claim,whils't the bulk of the scheme would be paid for by those never having a claim.The reasons for never having a claim are many,and that's where the Accountants/Risk Assessor,professionals do their calculations.

I am sure someone is going to say,there already are Insurance Companies out there,the point is lowering the costs,due to a non profit making scheme,and no age limits of cover.

Just a thought,for what it's worth!

Edited October 14, 2012 by MAJIC

[NeverSure]

Too late, the horse has well 'n truly bolted. It has always been this way, but you can blame the one(s) who advertised CM as a retirees' dream for the current oversupply of oldies--'Live here like a king on a grand' and all that jazz! The dropouts making the place look untidy are not my cup of tea, but at the end of the day, who are you to decide who does and doesn't fit? That's down to the Thais and they seem quite content to keep the doors open for now. The alternative is they tighten things up and lose a shed load to Cambodia.

Agreed.

I know of one group that on their website are claiming that it`s possible to retire in Thailand on $550 per month. Total rubbish.

In some respects Thailand maybe cheaper to live than the West, but it`s certainly not cheap here anymore. Even I have had to make cutbacks and budget myself more and more over the years and I consider myself quite well off, with 2 good pensions and savings.

As for tightening things up and losing a load of economic refugees to Cambodia, than that wouldn`t be a bad thing. Let them go and become someone elses problem.

Off topic, but Cambodia is no longer cheap either. I have no clue how such an impoverished country can have such high prices but they do. The sole benefit is that you can just walk in, and pay about $300 and have a retirement visa. All you need is a passport. Some private businesses also can issue those. There are no visa runs or 90 day check ins.

Edited October 14, 2012 by NeverSure

[CNXBKKMAN]

All people die at some point. Some people are rich when they die. Some people die poor and suffer more than the rich person. Its always been like that for thousands of years. I think the OP point is poor farangs should go somewhere else and not be in Thailand. They will still be poor and may still need care and will still die but not here in the sunshine. I don't agree. If the poor farang wants to stay its his choice and his life. The end may not be comfortable but if you are poor you are poor where ever you are on the globe.

[NeverSure]

The end may not be comfortable but if you are poor you are poor where ever you are on the globe.

At least most Western countries have some kind of safety net, especially for the elderly poor and for the chronically ill. Many have completely nationalized health care. Many have other assistance.

No way would you be in the same pickle in your home country.

[CNXBKKMAN]

The end may not be comfortable but if you are poor you are poor where ever you are on the globe.

At least most Western countries have some kind of safety net, especially for the elderly poor and for the chronically ill. Many have completely nationalized health care. Many have other assistance.

No way would you be in the same pickle in your home country.

True but the in the west we are expert in keeping people alive longer but you may need constant care and may have no quality of life. You may not even know you are alive! The poor farang in Thailand is just going to die quicker. It could be messy and painful but its a choice an individual can make. Theres no right and wrong on this one. I am not sure i would want to be a living wreck in the west to gain few years.

[NeverSure]

The end may not be comfortable but if you are poor you are poor where ever you are on the globe.

At least most Western countries have some kind of safety net, especially for the elderly poor and for the chronically ill. Many have completely nationalized health care. Many have other assistance.

No way would you be in the same pickle in your home country.

True but the in the west we are expert in keeping people alive longer but you may need constant care and may have no quality of life. You may not even know you are alive! The poor farang in Thailand is just going to die quicker. It could be messy and painful but its a choice an individual can make. Theres no right and wrong on this one. I am not sure i would want to be a living wreck in the west to gain few years.

I totally agree under those circumstances.

However there are some expensive medical conditions where good medical care can keep someone running just fine for another 20 years with good quality of life. A quadruple bypass might be one example. A heart valve repair or replacement might be another. The down and out couldn't afford to pay for that even in LOS.

Just thinking out loud here....

[endure]

The end may not be comfortable but if you are poor you are poor where ever you are on the globe.

At least most Western countries have some kind of safety net, especially for the elderly poor and for the chronically ill. Many have completely nationalized health care. Many have other assistance.

No way would you be in the same pickle in your home country.

You'd still be dead...

[NeverSure]

The end may not be comfortable but if you are poor you are poor where ever you are on the globe.

At least most Western countries have some kind of safety net, especially for the elderly poor and for the chronically ill. Many have completely nationalized health care. Many have other assistance.

No way would you be in the same pickle in your home country.

You'd still be dead...

Not if government paid quadruple bypass surgery would put you strongly back on your feet!!!!!

I totally agree that the decision is up to the individual. Just for me, if I were flat broke in Thailand, and getting back to my own shores would get me that bypass surgery, put me back on my feet feeling well, and the government safety nets would give me an income, "food stamps" and even housing assistance it would be a no brainer for me.

Even if I was terminal with cancer, I'd rather be in a US nursing home with real care 24/7, pain meds up to and including morphine, and no need to fend for myself. Upon request they would do nothing to prolong life, just make it more comfortable to die.

To each his own.

[endure]

The end may not be comfortable but if you are poor you are poor where ever you are on the globe.

At least most Western countries have some kind of safety net, especially for the elderly poor and for the chronically ill. Many have completely nationalized health care. Many have other assistance.

No way would you be in the same pickle in your home country.

You'd still be dead...

Not if government paid quadruple bypass surgery would put you strongly back on your feet!!!!!

The government doesn't pay for anything. The government has no money of its own.

[NeverSure]

The government doesn't pay for anything. The government has no money of its own.

That's right. I agree. I pay for it out of my taxes.

The medical care, called Medicare, I paid for all of my life. I started paying it (and social security) at age 14 when I got a part time job in a bakery. I paid into those accounts for more than 50 years!

It's an income tax withholding looking ahead to age 65. Any US citizen who worked or paid taxes in the US for a long time paid a ton into his retirement accounts and the ROI is actually lousy.

If an expat who worked in the US and retired to Thailand returns, he draws from the account that's attached to his social security number - the one he paid into all of those years.

The medical care is level for everyone, but the social security retirement check amount is directly related to how much he paid in, with a minimum payment. Without looking it up, I believe the minimum is about $800 a month, and the maximum is $2500, so high earners/payers collect more.

It's not welfare.

He paid for it out of every paycheck, or if self employed then in self employment taxes for every day he worked in the US. Even minimum wage people pay it, but obviously they pay, and then collect, a lot less than a high earner.

Edited October 14, 2012 by NeverSure

[Ulysses G.]

There is no minimum on Social Security. Some peole can get as low as 200-300 dollars per month to try to survive on.

[NeverSure]

There is no minimum on Social Security. Some peole can get as low as 200-300 dollars per month to try to survive on.

OK, you're right. I should have looked it up. However, it's convoluted. A wife who never worked can collect an amount that's 1/2 of what her husband collects. When retiring, a spouse can elect to collect his own benefits, or 1/2 of his retired spouses benefit, whichever is greater. If one spouse dies, the other can elect to collect the deceased's benefits if they are higher.

In any event, it isn't welfare.

Speaking of welfare, if someone has no SS benefits or almost none, and is a senior, he has a good chance of collecting welfare. He will always get medicare. Low income SS people can get "food stamps." They can also qualify for housing assistance.

Now, if the guy is a vet, he's even better off. There are benefits available there too including going to a veterans' facility if there's any service related lingering issue including PTSD.

My dad is 95 and a vet of Normandy. I posted some pics in another thread, even of the front page of our paper last Memorial Day where they did a spread on him. He has a purple heart and a bronze star. He could go out to the Veteran's Domiciliary here and they would carry him on out of here. He could live there, eat there, and they have a medical clinic, hospital and nursing home all of which he's eligible for.

He earned that too if he chose to use it.

Is it possible that some troubled guys in LOS are 'Nam vets? Good God, I know a lot of those vets who are troubled. They went through Hell, God love them. Yes, the government collects taxes from me to pay their benefits and I couldn't be happier to pay that. While I hate taxes, that's the one I most willingly pay. If they served, I owe them big time. I don't have to agree with the war and won't discuss that. They served when called, signed a blank check for their lives, went through Hell for their country and now it's payback time. I understand from another thread that VA benefits including health care are good in Thailand. They sure as heck are at the US military bases in Asia.

[canuckamuck]

So basically this thread is about making it harder for old people, down on their luck, to live out their final years and die where they choose?

We are all going to die, some of us will do it in an expensive drawn out affair causing many years of grief of our family and friends. Some will do it more quickly in a land of strangers. And there is all the variations in between.

But we have enough laws and restrictions in this world already thank you very much. If there are a few loopholes left on this earth why would you seek to close them up? So that you don't have to look upon poverty and misfortune? So you don't feel guilty?

Good luck, if you have your eyes open, there is plenty of human tragedy about in the land of smiles, The foreigners hardly make a dent.

[NeverSure]

So basically this thread is about making it harder for old people, down on their luck, to live out their final years and die where they choose?

We are all going to die, some of us will do it in an expensive drawn out affair causing many years of grief of our family and friends. Some will do it more quickly in a land of strangers. And there is all the variations in between.

But we have enough laws and restrictions in this world already thank you very much. If there are a few loopholes left on this earth why would you seek to close them up? So that you don't have to look upon poverty and misfortune? So you don't feel guilty?

Good luck, if you have your eyes open, there is plenty of human tragedy about in the land of smiles, The foreigners hardly make a dent.

I have watched a lot of people die. Every one of them fought for that last breath. It's easy to think people want to die, but apart from suicides I've never seen it.

I can speak only for me. I've live in LOS twice for very short periods of time - call them 3 months vacations. I love it. I'm moving there to retire next year.

Now, just for me, If I need a quadruple bypass to restore the quality of my life, or need a heart valve replacement or some other feasible proceedure which will put me strongly back on my feet, I'll return to the US and have it done. If I get something serious that can't be fixed and my time has come, I'll probably stay in LOS.

To each his own.

[canuckamuck]

My uncle wants to die, he has been in pain the last 10 years and he is bedridden. Last month he got pneumonia and everyone expected him to die. But he didn't. Now he he is very angry and depressed that they saved him.

[TommoPhysicist]

I know of one group that on their website are claiming that it`s possible to retire in Thailand on $550 per month. Total rubbish.

Hmmmm, I seem to have retired to Thailand on $300 a month, have a car, m/c, big house, family and babies. Maybe I'm one of those guys with dementia, living in the 'impossible' dream.

And all the Thais families that live around me seem to do OK on less than $200 a month, they must be dreaming too.

Edited October 15, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[theblether]

@neversure

Good wishes for your treatment

OP

Mai bpen rai

Go raise some money or volunteer for Llanna, don't campaign for stricter regs.....

Who know's? One day it could be you

[NeverSure]

I know of one group that on their website are claiming that it`s possible to retire in Thailand on $550 per month. Total rubbish.

Hmmmm, I seem to have retired to Thailand on $300 a month, have a car, m/c, big house, family and babies. Maybe I'm one of those guys with dementia, living in the 'impossible' dream.

And all the Thais families that live around me seem to do OK on less than $200 a month, they must be dreaming too.

With your tongue firmly planted in your cheek, you did. I'm going to do it on $150 a month. Who's doing it on $75?

Next?

[TommoPhysicist]

In most cases to live long term legally in Thailand means being able to meet the requirements imposed by the Immigration authorities, meaning work permits and having the appropriate funds if not working. These laws are created for our own protection and to help the authorities keep out undesirables, not just for the sake of.

The minimum requirement for living in Thailand is a trip to the border every two weeks.

For which you need 500bht for the Burma border post, and the bus fare to get there (300bht return from CM).

Total about $50 a month. (which you recover from bringing back booze and ciggies to sell on)

Tell me again how that protects anyone from anything?

Edited October 15, 2012 by TommoPhysicist