Aging Chiang Mai Expatriates In Trouble

[elektrified]

But not everyone has a child, nor a car or even a motorbike, so that would completely eliminate all the costs you just mentioned.

True, but Tommo said in his post that he has a car, m/c and more than one child.

[Dante99]

I know of one group that on their website are claiming that it`s possible to retire in Thailand on $550 per month. Total rubbish.

Hmmmm, I seem to have retired to Thailand on $300 a month, have a car, m/c, big house, family and babies. Maybe I'm one of those guys with dementia, living in the 'impossible' dream.

And all the Thais families that live around me seem to do OK on less than $200 a month, they must be dreaming too.

hahahahahahahaha lol sure. I have to laugh at this. there is always a joker in the deck.

The whole thread is a joke.

The OP mentions:

immigration

scams

medical care

whoring

gays and straights

Thai-Farang conflict

irresponsibility

drunks

bleeding hearts

government ineffectiveness

pedophiles

bad laws

cheats

Even Hamburgers

The something for everybody TROLL.

[Jingthing]

...

Most countries demand that retirees take out a minimum insurance plan, can be purchased from wherever but must be bought. Thailand, will inevitably follow this at some stage, and why shouldn't they? If the Thai government want to offer at a discount rate as being able to buy in bulk, that is something which would make sense.

...

I have studied international retirement visa programs for years, and I am sure that is NOT true. A few do. MOST don't. Yes, Malaysia does. Malaysia is ONE country.

Also note, most countries don't offer ANY kind of retirement visa program so comparing these programs internationally is not that hard a thing to do.

That said, personally and I think many other retired expats would very much WELCOME a scheme where we can BUY IN to some kind of established government owned or regulated program for a fair price that does cover preexisting conditions. You see, the thing is, a large percentage of people by retirement age have some kind of preexisting conditions, such as high blood pressure, which practically means you MIGHT be able to buy coverage here but it would exclude important things like heart disease.

Yes, there are some retirement visa destination countries that DO indeed offer some kind of government health program BUY IN option for retired expats so that isn't exactly an original idea. However, realistically, knowing Thailand, I would say the chance we would be welcomed in this way so officially to be sadly VERY REMOTE.

My prediction for the foreseeable future regarding both a buy in option and a requirement is neither will happen; the status quo will remain.

Edited October 15, 2012 by Jingthing

[chiang mai]

...

Most countries demand that retirees take out a minimum insurance plan, can be purchased from wherever but must be bought. Thailand, will inevitably follow this at some stage, and why shouldn't they? If the Thai government want to offer at a discount rate as being able to buy in bulk, that is something which would make sense.

...

I have studied international retirement visa programs for years, and I am sure that is NOT true. A few do. MOST don't. Yes, Malaysia does. Malaysia is ONE country.

Also note, most countries don't offer ANY kind of retirement visa program so comparing these programs internationally is not that hard a thing to do.

That said, personally and I think many other retired expats would very much WELCOME a scheme where we can BUY IN to some kind of established government owned or regulated program for a fair price that does cover preexisting conditions. You see, the thing is, a large percentage of people by retirement age have some kind of preexisting conditions, such as high blood pressure, which practically means you MIGHT be able to buy coverage here but it would exclude important things like heart disease.

Yes, there are some retirement visa countries that DO indeed offer some kind of BUY IN option for retired expats so that isn't exactly an original idea. However, realistically, knowing Thailand, I would say the chance we would be welcomed in this way so officially to be sadly VERY REMOTE.

Indonesia (Bali) does, so does Australia and New Zealand.

[Jingthing]

...

Most countries demand that retirees take out a minimum insurance plan, can be purchased from wherever but must be bought. Thailand, will inevitably follow this at some stage, and why shouldn't they? If the Thai government want to offer at a discount rate as being able to buy in bulk, that is something which would make sense.

...

I have studied international retirement visa programs for years, and I am sure that is NOT true. A few do. MOST don't. Yes, Malaysia does. Malaysia is ONE country.

Also note, most countries don't offer ANY kind of retirement visa program so comparing these programs internationally is not that hard a thing to do.

That said, personally and I think many other retired expats would very much WELCOME a scheme where we can BUY IN to some kind of established government owned or regulated program for a fair price that does cover preexisting conditions. You see, the thing is, a large percentage of people by retirement age have some kind of preexisting conditions, such as high blood pressure, which practically means you MIGHT be able to buy coverage here but it would exclude important things like heart disease.

Yes, there are some retirement visa countries that DO indeed offer some kind of BUY IN option for retired expats so that isn't exactly an original idea. However, realistically, knowing Thailand, I would say the chance we would be welcomed in this way so officially to be sadly VERY REMOTE.

Indonesia (Bali) does, so does Australia and New Zealand.

Yes I can list many more countries that do not!

Also Oz and NZ are for high wealth retirees only and I reckon only a small percentage of retired expats in Thailand could qualify for either country. I seriously don't think it is realistic to directly compare Oz and NZ with Thailand.

Here are some countries with retirement visa programs and most have no health insurance requirement. I am too lazy to do current research but I stand by this claim if you want to the googling for me, go ahead!

Argentina

Belize

Brazil

Chile

Columbia

Costa Rica

Dominican Republic

Ecuador

Guatemala

Honduras

Mexico

Nicaragua

Panama

Philippines

Uruguay

(If you noticed that most countries offering official retirement visas are in Latin America, you would be correct.)

Some countries may have a requirement AND offer a government program buy in option. I think if there was to be a requirement in Thailand it would be massively more palatable and reasonable IF the Thai government would offer such an option. And if you think that's really going to happen, can I interest y'all in a bridge?

Edited October 15, 2012 by Jingthing

[TommoPhysicist]

I know of one group that on their website are claiming that it`s possible to retire in Thailand on $550 per month. Total rubbish.

Hmmmm, I seem to have retired to Thailand on $300 a month, have a car, m/c, big house, family and babies. Maybe I'm one of those guys with dementia, living in the 'impossible' dream.

And all the Thais families that live around me seem to do OK on less than $200 a month, they must be dreaming too.

Have you decided whether you're going to eat or fill up the car with petrol this month Tommo?

Yeah that's funny. I have a 3 year old child. It costs me minimum 4K THB (US $125.00) a month to feed him - that's of course without water or any Sesto ice cream which he has quite a craving for! I spend about 7,800 THB (US $255.00) a month on gas for the car and motorcycle. (Most working Thai families I know with one car and one m/c who travel across town spend at least that on gas - usually more). So just there I am already about 25% over your budget before I even eat or use a drop of water or pay for water, electricity, insurance and on and on!

Sorry Tomo, most of your posts are good but US $300 (which I assume you mean) might have been possible 20 years ago - for one person.

We grow almost all our own food, wife owns house and farm.

Electricity 800bht, water 200bht, internet 630bht, school bus 500bht, nappies 800bht, pocket/lunch money 800bht, petrol 1000bht, insurance+tax 100bht, other school expenses 200bht.

(Emergency, I could always cut back on the nappies and pocket money)

That leaves me about 5,000bht a month for luxuries (coffee, beer, milk, bread, yogurt, fruit we don't grow and trips for me to CM).

Not my fault you guys are finding women and families that just leech off you.

Edited October 15, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

TommoPhysicist:

Lets get this straight, beer is not a luxury!

Anyone being made to live of such a low beer allowance should bring a claim for discrimination or divorce on the grounds of mental cruelty!

[ARISTIDE]

bread is a luxury?

That leaves me about 5,000bht a month for luxuries (coffee, beer, milk, bread, yogurt, fruit we don't grow and trips for me to CM).

[TommoPhysicist]

bread is a luxury?

That leaves me about 5,000bht a month for luxuries (coffee, beer, milk, bread, yogurt, fruit we don't grow and trips for me to CM).

Anything not commonly eaten by Thais is a luxury.

French bread without added sugar ..... definitely a luxury item!

[Loaded]

Forget all the scare stories about being away so you will be refused, its a load of rubbish.

I had read that after a certain time out of the country, you're refused all benefits and health care other than emergency medical cover which they will probably try to reclaim by stealing any assets you may have there. I had about thought how they would check if I went back for cancer or heart treatment on the NHS. I'm not sure my NI number is attached to my passport or tax (I'm a non UK tax domicile) details. Can you give more details about how to bypass this?

[weary]

I still say that my main concern is that some people become a financial drain on the government, or at least a nuisance by not being able to pay medical bills, etc.

If there's enough of that, I fear that the government will tighten up the rules for retirement visas. They could decide to have a quota, or require health insurance which really isn't available for seniors... Then what happens to those who have big investments and/or a Thai family in LOS?

I agree it's none of my business how others choose to live - until it starts jeopardizing my lifestyle.

So, in essence: "You who don't have enough money, get more or get out. Because you are here, soon the rules may change, and I may become the one who has no money, and that would be terrible because then I may have to get out." Yes, that should motivate them.

[uptheos]

Forget all the scare stories about being away so you will be refused, its a load of rubbish.

I had read that after a certain time out of the country, you're refused all benefits and health care other than emergency medical cover which they will probably try to reclaim by stealing any assets you may have there. I had about thought how they would check if I went back for cancer or heart treatment on the NHS. I'm not sure my NI number is attached to my passport or tax (I'm a non UK tax domicile) details. Can you give more details about how to bypass this?

Sorry I don't know anything about how to bypass tax etc, I'm only referring to elderly people who might be ill or destitute and need to go home.

Once you return you only have to demonstrate that you are 'ordinarily resident'. This simply means that you have a chat with social services, inform them that you're back permanently and if you have a bank account show that it's been closed. In other words you just have to demonstrate that you have come back to live and this process takes a few weeks. You start making benefit claims immediately for pension credit, housing benefit etc. I'm basically talking about folk who might be destitute/ill and need to return home in my other post. If you land in the UK without any assets and you are elderly, then at the very least you will get accommodation albeit a BB or hostel, you will get pension credit to make up the amount that the government decides a person needs to survive on. You will get medical treatment as no-one will refuse an elderly destitute person who is a British citizen. Two people I know made the transition back, one said that he was so depressed and thinking of killing himself and he seemed to get support coming out of his ears. People can say what they like about blighty but there are safeguards in place for the vulnerable and no-one is going to refuse you on the grounds that you lived abroad. I would also suggest that anyone returning because they are destitute, or ill, at least try and get a BA flight direct, as you certainly don't want to be dumped in Mumbai or Abu Dhabi if something happens on the way.

Lots of scare tactics, but the bottom line is that they can't deport you and therefore have to make sure you're treated fairly as far as benefits go. Anyone who has paid into the system should not fear that they will be on the street or left dying, it doesn't happen. And these organisations like Age UK, Shelter etc, have a lot of clout and are usually batting for the underdog.

Edited October 15, 2012 by uptheos

[chiang mai]

Forget all the scare stories about being away so you will be refused, its a load of rubbish.

I had read that after a certain time out of the country, you're refused all benefits and health care other than emergency medical cover which they will probably try to reclaim by stealing any assets you may have there. I had about thought how they would check if I went back for cancer or heart treatment on the NHS. I'm not sure my NI number is attached to my passport or tax (I'm a non UK tax domicile) details. Can you give more details about how to bypass this?

You will always be entitled to emergency treatment but nothing beyond that, unless:

1) you are of pensionable age and in reciept of your UK state pension, or,

2) you declare that you have returned to the UK on a settled basis which you may be asked to prove. The latter might include having proof that you've severed ties with the country you just left so sale of personal real estate perhaps. I think that if you have no tangible proof and you genuinely have returned for good, offering to relinquish your passport might do the trick or a cash bond to be held for xx months perhaps..

[LawrenceChee]

I agree with Beetle for once....plan well for your retirement...personally I am not sure how anyone can quote $300 or $550 a month to live on.

I personally dont plan to live here for less than $2000 a month, I came here to retire in style, maximise my lifestyle and although that amount wont give me much of anything in my own country, in CM, it's a very healthy amount to live and enjoy the golden years.

At that amount, it's better to hike home and use every last dime / resource of social benefits in your own country for the years of taxes you have paid.

Anyone that has laughed at your accountant or financial planner before...learn to regret it...those ridiculous sums and worksheets are true...you really do need this much money to retire ! Get realistic....

anyone thathas not planned and is now trying to live on $300 regreatably if you are truthful. you wished you have done better planning and saved more.

[uptheos]

Forget all the scare stories about being away so you will be refused, its a load of rubbish.

I had read that after a certain time out of the country, you're refused all benefits and health care other than emergency medical cover which they will probably try to reclaim by stealing any assets you may have there. I had about thought how they would check if I went back for cancer or heart treatment on the NHS. I'm not sure my NI number is attached to my passport or tax (I'm a non UK tax domicile) details. Can you give more details about how to bypass this?

You will always be entitled to emergency treatment but nothing beyond that, unless:

1) you are of pensionable age and in reciept of your UK state pension, or,

2) you declare that you have returned to the UK on a settled basis which you may be asked to prove. The latter might include having proof that you've severed ties with the country you just left so sale of personal real estate perhaps. I think that if you have no tangible proof and you genuinely have returned for good, offering to relinquish your passport might do the trick or a cash bond to be held for xx months perhaps..

I'm focusing on the elderly (over pension age) whether they are receiving a pension or not.

If you are a BC, elderly, destitute or ill, you will not be refused treatment emergency or otherwise, you will be found temporary accommodation and you will get a lot of help applying for benefits. Becoming 'ordinarily resident' as defined by the government will not take long. Someone who is destitute is unlikely to sell real estate prior but they might have a small bank account they can close and a one way ticket. A destitute person will not have to put up a cash bond or surrender their passport. I'm speaking from experience of people that I know, though I won't go into details on this forum.

All I'm saying is that if someone is old, ill and broke, don't be afraid to go back if you are suffering just because there are conditions for returning residents. These conditions are flexible under the right circumstances and you will get help. You will always be a BC, they can't send you anywhere else and they won't leave you on the street.

[mesquite]

Anyone that has laughed at your accountant or financial planner before...learn to regret it...those ridiculous sums and worksheets are true...you really do need this much money to retire ! Get realistic...

It depends on the amount. In the US it's common for financial planners to give a figure of 80% of your income when working. That's way too high and would result in never retiring. I laughed then and I'm laughing now.

[watcharacters]

Put me down for a 'found dead in bed'.

Sounds like the best way to go.

Even better 'found dead in 20yo gfs bed'

I think the OP was opening the discussion to the situation where it reads "expat found in TGF's bed with stroke but alive and breathing". "Just severely handicapped and unable to speak".

[NeverSure]

I still say that my main concern is that some people become a financial drain on the government, or at least a nuisance by not being able to pay medical bills, etc.

If there's enough of that, I fear that the government will tighten up the rules for retirement visas. They could decide to have a quota, or require health insurance which really isn't available for seniors... Then what happens to those who have big investments and/or a Thai family in LOS?

I agree it's none of my business how others choose to live - until it starts jeopardizing my lifestyle.

So, in essence: "You who don't have enough money, get more or get out. Because you are here, soon the rules may change, and I may become the one who has no money, and that would be terrible because then I may have to get out." Yes, that should motivate them.

I can't figure out whether you need to learn to read, or maybe I need to learn to write. I said only that it concerns me.

[TommoPhysicist]

Put me down for a 'found dead in bed'.

Sounds like the best way to go.

Even better 'found dead in 20yo gfs bed'

I think the OP was opening the discussion to the situation where it reads "expat found in TGF's bed with stroke but alive and breathing". "Just severely handicapped and unable to speak".

Here is the answer to that one .......... for me anyway.

Edited October 16, 2012 by TommoPhysicist

[lizardtongue]

We all meet/see/hear about people who perhaps live their lives in a different way from how we perceive we live ours, Is it any ones business other than the person who has for what ever reason decided to conduct/live his/her life in that particular way?

I my opinion the answer is NO. If the Thai immigration wanted to expel ex-pats who they thought were not legally meeting their visa requirements then they would undoubtedly do so, but they don't that in it's self tells you something?

[elektrified]

We all meet/see/hear about people who perhaps live their lives in a different way from how we perceive we live ours, Is it any ones business other than the person who has for what ever reason decided to conduct/live his/her life in that particular way?

I my opinion the answer is NO. If the Thai immigration wanted to expel ex-pats who they thought were not legally meeting their visa requirements then they would undoubtedly do so, but they don't that in it's self tells you something?

I'll agree with your first paragraph 100% but totally disagree with your second paragraph. Ex-pats are deported every day from Thailand for violation of visa requirements.

[bdw]

If they really get that down on their luck let them move into the local temple, costs nothing to live there.

[lizardtongue]

We all meet/see/hear about people who perhaps live their lives in a different way from how we perceive we live ours, Is it any ones business other than the person who has for what ever reason decided to conduct/live his/her life in that particular way?

I my opinion the answer is NO. If the Thai immigration wanted to expel ex-pats who they thought were not legally meeting their visa requirements then they would undoubtedly do so, but they don't that in it's self tells you something?

I'll agree with your first paragraph 100% but totally disagree with your second paragraph. Ex-pats are deported every day from Thailand for violation of visa requirements.

Yes but in the main they are people who have brought themselves to notice, I was referring to the authorities actually going out of their way and 'hunting down' violators

[Thailand]

For the Brits out there. Memories and perhaps a tear?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dxn73vXEW7w

[circusman]

Everyone mind their own business.

[Rajab Al Zarahni]

Everyone mind their own business.

Sorry Miss!

[circusman]

Everyone mind their own business.

Sorry Miss!

Thats alright.

[Thailand]

Everyone mind their own business.

You do realise this is an open forum where everybody minds everybody else's business?

[lizardtongue]

For the Brits out there. Memories and perhaps a tear?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dxn73vXEW7w

Classics but you forgot the 'White Cliffs of Dover'

[LawrenceChee]

Save more money when you are younger, spend lesser as you get older, learn how to live in a smaller house that takes less time to clean, drink & smoke less (hic if possible), find a decent girl for companionship instead of going to the bars...these should all help :-)

Learn how to sit in Black Canyon or a nearby Cafe for 5-6 hours during the hot season to save air-conditioning and wifi bills ....