Britain, Scotland Sign Deal For Independence Referendum

[bigbamboo]

To `The Blether`I have just read every post in this discussion and would like to thank you for becoming invovled in it.Since you became involved the petty,sniping anti-Scottish rhetoric has all but disappeared.These people know who they are but haven`t had the guts to re-appear after you shot them down in flames.I don`t agree with everything you have written but at least i can make an honest judgement based on some very good links that have been posted by you and others.

Regards Dundee.

I was quite surprised at the anti-unionist stance, and indeed the anti-British stance displayed by some of our English compatriots. It didn't tally with my experience of English people back in the Old Country. Maybe English people emigrate because they hate their country, but Scottish people emigrate although they love their country.

SC

Or maybe English people emigrate because they can't stand their neighbours!

[theblether]

To `The Blether`I have just read every post in this discussion and would like to thank you for becoming invovled in it.Since you became involved the petty,sniping anti-Scottish rhetoric has all but disappeared.These people know who they are but haven`t had the guts to re-appear after you shot them down in flames.I don`t agree with everything you have written but at least i can make an honest judgement based on some very good links that have been posted by you and others.

Regards Dundee.

I was quite surprised at the anti-unionist stance, and indeed the anti-British stance displayed by some of our English compatriots. It didn't tally with my experience of English people back in the Old Country. Maybe English people emigrate because they hate their country, but Scottish people emigrate although they love their country.

SC

Or maybe English people emigrate because they can't stand their neighbours!

Don't talk about the Welsh like that, that's not nice.

[StreetCowboy]

I missed the part where Alex Salmond requested the second question......can you point me in that direction please? Not newspaper speculation, just the link to any official government body that can confirm the second question was requested. This is a genuine request, I'm not trying to be smart.

DC knows he's walking into a trap........and all you guys that are moaning about 16 and 17 year old's getting the vote, wake up and smell the coffee. These kids can legally marry blah blah, and we should involve them in every aspect of British politics, the adults in the country are abandoning democracy in their droves, the voting turnout is terrible going on abysmal.

I personally think that if you are old enough to marry then you are old enough to vote, no doubt some sour old codgers won't agree with that, but amusingly they are the same sour old codgers that don't vote anyway.

Just sayin'

If I was going to trial letting schoolchildren vote, I'd not start with a vote for the survival of the country.

SC

Edited November 4, 2012 by StreetCowboy

[theblether]

I missed the part where Alex Salmond requested the second question......can you point me in that direction please? Not newspaper speculation, just the link to any official government body that can confirm the second question was requested. This is a genuine request, I'm not trying to be smart.

DC knows he's walking into a trap........and all you guys that are moaning about 16 and 17 year old's getting the vote, wake up and smell the coffee. These kids can legally marry blah blah, and we should involve them in every aspect of British politics, the adults in the country are abandoning democracy in their droves, the voting turnout is terrible going on abysmal.

I personally think that if you are old enough to marry then you are old enough to vote, no doubt some sour old codgers won't agree with that, but amusingly they are the same sour old codgers that don't vote anyway.

Just sayin'

If I was going to trial letting schoolchildren vote, I'd not start with a vote for the survival of the country.

SC

Why? if they are old enough to marry, they are old enough to vote. This is the snobbery of advanced years coming out, as far as I'm concerned they should be voting in every election.

At least they'll actually turn up to vote unlike the rest of the lazy bast*ds that like to talk a good game.

We should be encouraging youngsters to take part in our democracy, not ridiculing them.

Edited November 4, 2012 by theblether

[StreetCowboy]

I missed the part where Alex Salmond requested the second question......can you point me in that direction please? Not newspaper speculation, just the link to any official government body that can confirm the second question was requested. This is a genuine request, I'm not trying to be smart.

DC knows he's walking into a trap........and all you guys that are moaning about 16 and 17 year old's getting the vote, wake up and smell the coffee. These kids can legally marry blah blah, and we should involve them in every aspect of British politics, the adults in the country are abandoning democracy in their droves, the voting turnout is terrible going on abysmal.

I personally think that if you are old enough to marry then you are old enough to vote, no doubt some sour old codgers won't agree with that, but amusingly they are the same sour old codgers that don't vote anyway.

Just sayin'

If I was going to trial letting schoolchildren vote, I'd not start with a vote for the survival of the country.

SC

Why? if they are old enough to marry, they are old enough to vote. This is the snobbery of advanced years coming out, as far as I'm concerned they should be voting in every election.

At least they'll actually turn up to vote unlike the rest of the lazy bast*ds that like to talk a good game.

We should be encouraging youngsters to take part in our democracy, not ridiculing them.

I'd probably trial it on something like a general election or a local government election or something like that, and do some research on how well it worked. Otherwise, I might be accused of gerrymandering, or whatever. I suppose at least they'll turn up sober, since they're not allowed to buy drink.

Are they going to allow members of the armed forces, and the insane vote as well?

SC

Edited November 4, 2012 by StreetCowboy

[endure]

Are they going to allow members of the armed forces, and the insane vote as well?

The armed forces are allowed to vote now.

[theblether]

Correct......and our youngsters are allowed to join up at 16. I regard this as a petty issue, I know youngsters who are emenintly more sensible and switched on than some of the adults I meet on a daily basis.

The issue has been noted in Scotland but no one is manning the barricades about it. There is no guarantee that this age group will vote for Independence either.

I will lay you odds that no matter how many newly enfranchised teenagers turn out to vote they will still be outnumbered by the adults that can't be bothered.

Maybe you should aim your ire at them.

[MAJIC]

I missed the part where Alex Salmond requested the second question......can you point me in that direction please? Not newspaper speculation, just the link to any official government body that can confirm the second question was requested. This is a genuine request, I'm not trying to be smart.

DC knows he's walking into a trap........and all you guys that are moaning about 16 and 17 year old's getting the vote, wake up and smell the coffee. These kids can legally marry blah blah, and we should involve them in every aspect of British politics, the adults in the country are abandoning democracy in their droves, the voting turnout is terrible going on abysmal.

I personally think that if you are old enough to marry then you are old enough to vote, no doubt some sour old codgers won't agree with that, but amusingly they are the same sour old codgers that don't vote anyway.

Just sayin'

If I was going to trial letting schoolchildren vote, I'd not start with a vote for the survival of the country.

SC

Why? if they are old enough to marry, they are old enough to vote. This is the snobbery of advanced years coming out, as far as I'm concerned they should be voting in every election.

At least they'll actually turn up to vote unlike the rest of the lazy bast*ds that like to talk a good game.

We should be encouraging youngsters to take part in our democracy, not ridiculing them.

I'd probably trial it on something like a general election or a local government election or something like that, and do some research on how well it worked. Otherwise, I might be accused of gerrymandering, or whatever. I suppose at least they'll turn up sober, since they're not allowed to buy drink.

Are they going to allow members of the armed forces, and the insane vote as well?

SC

It looks more like,Salmonds desperation vote,by allowing the young and inexperienced novice voter in,who will most likely vote the Nationalistic card,in which case he may very well have more chance of a yes vote!

It's insane to believe that 16 & 17 year olds have any idea of what is at stake here,at that age the main thing on their minds is Football and Girls.

Edited November 4, 2012 by MAJIC

[7by7]

Blether, nicely dodged the issue, again.

To be honest, trying to get you to answer the questions put makes me feel like Paxman to your Howard!

[smokie36]

It looks more like,Salmonds desperation vote,by allowing the young and inexperienced novice voter in,who will most likely vote the Nationalistic card,in which case he may very well have more chance of a yes vote!

It's insane to believe that 16 & 17 year olds have any idea of what is at stake here,at that age the main thing on their minds is Football and Girls.

Before judging our teenage population in such a fashion perhaps you would care to back up your position with some facts?

Many 39 year olds are more interested in football and girls by the way.

It doesn't mean we don't have an opinion one way or the other on important issues.

Behave yourself and listen to what Scotland has to say before opening your mouth and spilling bile forth on our kids.

Scotland has a good educational system for the most part....better generally than the English model so allow them the right to shape our country.....a vote which will affect them far more than the rest of us in any case.

Edited November 4, 2012 by smokie36

[theblether]

What is the issue you want me to answer 7x7?

[bigbamboo]

Correct......and our youngsters are allowed to join up at 16. I regard this as a petty issue, I know youngsters who are emenintly more sensible and switched on than some of the adults I meet on a daily basis.

The issue has been noted in Scotland but no one is manning the barricades about it. There is no guarantee that this age group will vote for Independence either.

I will lay you odds that no matter how many newly enfranchised teenagers turn out to vote they will still be outnumbered by the adults that can't be bothered.

Maybe you should aim your ire at them.

Have there been any opinion polls to gauge how the Scottish schoolkids will vote? I would assume so or else Salmond wouldn't be asking for then to be included.

There's always the worry that their judgement may not yet be sound like all those who voted Westlife ahead of The Beatles as the greatest band of the millenium.

[7by7]

What is the issue you want me to answer 7x7?

You know very well, as the questions are all there in my previous posts; questions you wont answer! But:-

The SNP may now, for the first time, have the majority in the Scottish parliament, but their support in elections to the parliament that matters, Westminster, has never been large and has been steadily dwindling. You claimed that this was tactical voting to get rid of the Tories, I produced the figures to show this claim was nonsense. You ignored those figures.

But the really important questions you have continuously ignored are the economic ones.

When will Salmond tell the Scottish people that independence and the loss of the financial subsidy from England and the loss of UK government defence and other contracts will result in higher taxes, higher unemployment and lower services for the Scottish people?

Your assertion that as an independent Scotland will reduce corporation tax to 15% thousands of companies will flock north of the border is, again, nonsense. They may place their headquarters there, but this wont create many real jobs; certainly not enough to replace the tens of thousands of jobs lost from defence etc.

Why would these companies go to Scotland anyway? Why would they be waiting for a possible reduced rate in Scotland when other European countries already have a lower rate than the UK? You, yourself, have said that the rate in the RoI is 12.5%, so any companies which want to leave the UK for a lower tax rate will have already done so!

Currency? The SNP has said that they will either remain in Sterling or join the Euro.

Remain in Sterling? Why would the UK government and the Bank of England allow them to do so? Why would the Bank of England agree to be the lender of last resort to a foreign country? Why would the UK government agree to financially support a foreign government over which it has no control?

Even if the UK did agree to allow Scotland to remain in Sterling, then it would be on the condition that all fiscal policy had to be approved by the Bank of England and/or the UK Treasury. How is that independence?

The alternative, the Euro, means, as has been amply demonstrated by recent events, handing fiscal control to Brussels. How is that independence?

[7by7]

Oh, almost forgot.

I know you wont accept newspaper reports, except those which support your arguments, but:

Pressure on Salmond as second question draws criticism

Alex Salmond is facing mounting pressure over the issue of his promotion of the inclusion of a second question in the Scottish independence referendum

Alex Salmond nears deal for single question vote on independence

THE First Minister wanted a second question on the ballot paper, but is ready to back down in exchange for being given control over the wording of the question.

Both from Scottish newspapers, by the way.

[theblether]

Correct......and our youngsters are allowed to join up at 16. I regard this as a petty issue, I know youngsters who are emenintly more sensible and switched on than some of the adults I meet on a daily basis.

The issue has been noted in Scotland but no one is manning the barricades about it. There is no guarantee that this age group will vote for Independence either.

I will lay you odds that no matter how many newly enfranchised teenagers turn out to vote they will still be outnumbered by the adults that can't be bothered.

Maybe you should aim your ire at them.

Have there been any opinion polls to gauge how the Scottish schoolkids will vote? I would assume so or else Salmond wouldn't be asking for then to be included.

There's always the worry that their judgement may not yet be sound like all those who voted Westlife ahead of The Beatles as the greatest band of the millenium.

No there hasn't, or at least I haven't seen one......and as I said already there is no guarantee that this age group will support Independence.

[theblether]

What is the issue you want me to answer 7x7?

You know very well, as the questions are all there in my previous posts; questions you wont answer! But:-

The SNP may now, for the first time, have the majority in the Scottish parliament, but their support in elections to the parliament that matters, Westminster, has never been large and has been steadily dwindling. You claimed that this was tactical voting to get rid of the Tories, I produced the figures to show this claim was nonsense. You ignored those figures.

But the really important questions you have continuously ignored are the economic ones.

When will Salmond tell the Scottish people that independence and the loss of the financial subsidy from England and the loss of UK government defence and other contracts will result in higher taxes, higher unemployment and lower services for the Scottish people?

Your assertion that as an independent Scotland will reduce corporation tax to 15% thousands of companies will flock north of the border is, again, nonsense. They may place their headquarters there, but this wont create many real jobs; certainly not enough to replace the tens of thousands of jobs lost from defence etc.

Why would these companies go to Scotland anyway? Why would they be waiting for a possible reduced rate in Scotland when other European countries already have a lower rate than the UK? You, yourself, have said that the rate in the RoI is 12.5%, so any companies which want to leave the UK for a lower tax rate will have already done so!

Currency? The SNP has said that they will either remain in Sterling or join the Euro.

Remain in Sterling? Why would the UK government and the Bank of England allow them to do so? Why would the Bank of England agree to be the lender of last resort to a foreign country? Why would the UK government agree to financially support a foreign government over which it has no control?

Even if the UK did agree to allow Scotland to remain in Sterling, then it would be on the condition that all fiscal policy had to be approved by the Bank of England and/or the UK Treasury. How is that independence?

The alternative, the Euro, means, as has been amply demonstrated by recent events, handing fiscal control to Brussels. How is that independence?

Independence In Europe, it's been the SNP policy for years........It told you that already. I also said we know we have to answer to Brussels, so by dint we must abide by EU Treaties.

[theblether]

Oh, almost forgot.

I know you wont accept newspaper reports, except those which support your arguments, but:

Pressure on Salmond as second question draws criticism

Alex Salmond is facing mounting pressure over the issue of his promotion of the inclusion of a second question in the Scottish independence referendum

Alex Salmond nears deal for single question vote on independence

THE First Minister wanted a second question on the ballot paper, but is ready to back down in exchange for being given control over the wording of the question.

Both from Scottish newspapers, by the way.

Very good.......you've never heard of the concept of a negotiating ploy? So I asked you to prove there had been an official request for a second question AND!!!..........you couldn't, because it doesn't exist.

Oh dear.......once again round and round the garden................

ps 7x7, the rest of your post is flannel, just complete guesswork. Once again you have completely overlooked the point that separation will come after negotiation. The issue of currency management will be part of the negotiation, you and many others like you totally fail to understand that England owns nothing, everything belongs to the UK and it will be the UK and Scotland that will negotiate.

So comments such as the "why would the BoE" blah blah are nonsensical.....the BoE will do as it's told y it's political masters, and the political masters will abide by the negotiated settlement.

It really is as simple as that.

Edited November 5, 2012 by theblether

[jocko]

Do they make cars in Scotland?

The RMC Linwood plant closed in 1981, after being sold first to Chrysler, then to Talbot group.

That's possibly a good example of poorly transferred production and an inability to manage a local workforce. Also an example of the perils of government interference in the market.

SC

I blame the Japanese for making far better cars

[theblether]

Do they make cars in Scotland?

The RMC Linwood plant closed in 1981, after being sold first to Chrysler, then to Talbot group.

That's possibly a good example of poorly transferred production and an inability to manage a local workforce. Also an example of the perils of government interference in the market.

SC

I blame the Japanese for making far better cars

I blame the workforce for allowing their Unions to be taken over by quasi-communists.

[Mosha]

Is Scotland financially able to sustain itself as an independent country?

i think that all depends on wheather they will be granted all or only some of the north sea oil and gas , if the claim that it belongs ONLY to scotland , then england will suffer more than the scots ..........thats how i understand it , a few £ billion is big bucks to 5m people,... not so much to 58 million !

If you follow the border into the sea. It goes NE. England will have quite a bit of the oil/gas reserves

[nontabury]

I missed the part where Alex Salmond requested the second question......can you point me in that direction please? Not newspaper speculation, just the link to any official government body that can confirm the second question was requested. This is a genuine request, I'm not trying to be smart.

DC knows he's walking into a trap........and all you guys that are moaning about 16 and 17 year old's getting the vote, wake up and smell the coffee. These kids can legally marry blah blah, and we should involve them in every aspect of British politics, the adults in the country are abandoning democracy in their droves, the voting turnout is terrible going on abysmal.

I personally think that if you are old enough to marry then you are old enough to vote, no doubt some sour old codgers won't agree with that, but amusingly they are the same sour old codgers that don't vote anyway.

Just sayin'

You are not prepared to accept sourced information from the BBC or British broadsheets, but will accept opinons printed in the Washinton Post, YOU really do like to pick and choose.

I noticed you did not make any comment on the relevance of 2114, and more importantly, again fail to answer my opinion that it is all been driven by a narrow minded nationalism,that is takin advantage of anti English sentiments felt by many Scots.

[theblether]

I missed the part where Alex Salmond requested the second question......can you point me in that direction please? Not newspaper speculation, just the link to any official government body that can confirm the second question was requested. This is a genuine request, I'm not trying to be smart.

DC knows he's walking into a trap........and all you guys that are moaning about 16 and 17 year old's getting the vote, wake up and smell the coffee. These kids can legally marry blah blah, and we should involve them in every aspect of British politics, the adults in the country are abandoning democracy in their droves, the voting turnout is terrible going on abysmal.

I personally think that if you are old enough to marry then you are old enough to vote, no doubt some sour old codgers won't agree with that, but amusingly they are the same sour old codgers that don't vote anyway.

Just sayin'

You are not prepared to accept sourced information from the BBC or British broadsheets, but will accept opinons printed in the Washinton Post, YOU really do like to pick and choose.

I noticed you did not make any comment on the relevance of 2114, and more importantly, again fail to answer my opinion that it is all been driven by a narrow minded nationalism,that is takin advantage of anti English sentiments felt by many Scots.

Anyome readimg this thread will see that my first link re the UNSC situation was nothing to do with the Washimgton Post, and it was only to illustrate that there was a conversation taking place. Luckily 7x7 provided links proving my point, as did Folium, and 7x7 confirmed that he knew the situation under review. The WP only added a timely confirmation that the issue was live and relevant. So the point has been established and accepted.

I have no doubt that some of my fellow Scots will vote yes through "narrow minded and anti- English sentiment", that is their prerogative. I will vote upon the issues. The majority of you guys on this thread don't have a vote so I'll take into account all of your points then ignore them as I vote Yes to Independence.

[bigbamboo]

Is Scotland financially able to sustain itself as an independent country?

i think that all depends on wheather they will be granted all or only some of the north sea oil and gas , if the claim that it belongs ONLY to scotland , then england will suffer more than the scots ..........thats how i understand it , a few £ billion is big bucks to 5m people,... not so much to 58 million !

If you follow the border into the sea. It goes NE. England will have quite a bit of the oil/gas reserves

This is where the fun will start. As you can see in the Gulf of Thailand one country's perception of an offshore national boundary is quite different from anothers!

[theblether]

Is Scotland financially able to sustain itself as an independent country?

i think that all depends on wheather they will be granted all or only some of the north sea oil and gas , if the claim that it belongs ONLY to scotland , then england will suffer more than the scots ..........thats how i understand it , a few £ billion is big bucks to 5m people,... not so much to 58 million !

If you follow the border into the sea. It goes NE. England will have quite a bit of the oil/gas reserves

This is where the fun will start. As you can see in the Gulf of Thailand one country's perception of an offshore national boundary is quite different from anothers!

It will be quite simple, we'll let you keep all of the National Debt, and we'll let you have 30% of the Oil and Gas fields. I don't know why you all think it's complicated???

[MAJIC]

It looks more like,Salmonds desperation vote,by allowing the young and inexperienced novice voter in,who will most likely vote the Nationalistic card,in which case he may very well have more chance of a yes vote!

It's insane to believe that 16 & 17 year olds have any idea of what is at stake here,at that age the main thing on their minds is Football and Girls.

Before judging our teenage population in such a fashion perhaps you would care to back up your position with some facts?

Many 39 year olds are more interested in football and girls by the way.

It doesn't mean we don't have an opinion one way or the other on important issues.

Behave yourself and listen to what Scotland has to say before opening your mouth and spilling bile forth on our kids.

Scotland has a good educational system for the most part....better generally than the English model so allow them the right to shape our country.....a vote which will affect them far more than the rest of us in any case.

My Post was stating a well known belief,i.e very few young peoples interests are in Political issues,and that IMHO goes for English young people as well as Scottish ones,(So no Bile intended for anyone)I don't know what Scottish educational system you consider "better generally than the English model" perhaps you could explain?

Ironically todays Daily Express touches on my point of some young peoples knowledge,and has some sad lack of knowledge quotes.To be fair the article does mention Parents who don't know some of the basic facts about the First World War.

http://www.express.c...First-World-War-

Page 11, under the heading :Battle of Waterloo,wasn't that in the First World War

Edited November 5, 2012 by MAJIC

[theblether]

It looks more like,Salmonds desperation vote,by allowing the young and inexperienced novice voter in,who will most likely vote the Nationalistic card,in which case he may very well have more chance of a yes vote!

It's insane to believe that 16 & 17 year olds have any idea of what is at stake here,at that age the main thing on their minds is Football and Girls.

Before judging our teenage population in such a fashion perhaps you would care to back up your position with some facts?

Many 39 year olds are more interested in football and girls by the way.

It doesn't mean we don't have an opinion one way or the other on important issues.

Behave yourself and listen to what Scotland has to say before opening your mouth and spilling bile forth on our kids.

Scotland has a good educational system for the most part....better generally than the English model so allow them the right to shape our country.....a vote which will affect them far more than the rest of us in any case.

My Post was stating a well known belief,i.e very few young peoples interests are in Political issues,and that IMHO goes for English young people as well as Scottish ones,(So no Bile intended for anyone)I don't know what Scottish educational system you consider "better generally than the English model" perhaps you could explain?

Ironically todays Daily Express touches on my point of some young peoples knowledge,and has some sad lack of knowledge quotes.To be fair the article does mention Parents who don't know some of the basic facts about the First World War.

http://www.express.c...First-World-War-

Page 11, under the heading :Battle of Waterloo,wasn't that in the First World War

The last three Prime Ministers have either been Scottish or Scottish heritage.......we must be doing something right

[MAJIC]

It looks more like,Salmonds desperation vote,by allowing the young and inexperienced novice voter in,who will most likely vote the Nationalistic card,in which case he may very well have more chance of a yes vote!

It's insane to believe that 16 & 17 year olds have any idea of what is at stake here,at that age the main thing on their minds is Football and Girls.

Before judging our teenage population in such a fashion perhaps you would care to back up your position with some facts?

Many 39 year olds are more interested in football and girls by the way.

It doesn't mean we don't have an opinion one way or the other on important issues.

Behave yourself and listen to what Scotland has to say before opening your mouth and spilling bile forth on our kids.

Scotland has a good educational system for the most part....better generally than the English model so allow them the right to shape our country.....a vote which will affect them far more than the rest of us in any case.

My Post was stating a well known belief,i.e very few young peoples interests are in Political issues,and that IMHO goes for English young people as well as Scottish ones,(So no Bile intended for anyone)I don't know what Scottish educational system you consider "better generally than the English model" perhaps you could explain?

Ironically todays Daily Express touches on my point of some young peoples knowledge,and has some sad lack of knowledge quotes.To be fair the article does mention Parents who don't know some of the basic facts about the First World War.

http://www.express.c...First-World-War-

Page 11, under the heading :Battle of Waterloo,wasn't that in the First World War

The last three Prime Ministers have either been Scottish or Scottish heritage.......we must be doing something right

And no doubt you will deservedly receive a fourth Scottish Prime Minister,or possibly even a President,but whatever,it will be your very own,let's hope he has learnt how to balance the books this time.

[theblether]

As I said........you guys can keep the national debt and we'll let you keep 30% of the oil and gas, sounds like a good deal to me.

[Cobalt60]

I reckon its like being in a failing marriage. If one party doesnt love the other, then its only fair to set them free. So run along now and don't expect any maintenance payments. We can still be friends though, honest.

[theblether]

I reckon its like being in a failing marriage. If one party doesnt love the other, then its only fair to set them free. So run along now and don't expect any maintenance payments. We can still be friends though, honest.

We won't need maintenance payments when we have 70% of the oil and gas + the revenue from our 15% Corporation Tax. We may even decide to buy some BoE Bonds to give you guys a wee hand out.

Edited November 5, 2012 by theblether