Britain, Scotland Sign Deal For Independence Referendum

[MAJIC]

As I said........you guys can keep the national debt and we'll let you keep 30% of the oil and gas, sounds like a good deal to me.

cancelled post

Edited November 5, 2012 by MAJIC

[theblether]

As I said........you guys can keep the national debt and we'll let you keep 30% of the oil and gas, sounds like a good deal to me.

Well yes! a better deal than you think.The National Debt in the UK was paid off a few years ago!

The national debt has never been bigger in cash terms, it has been bigger as a percentage of GDP though. I haven't Googled it but I think we're around 1 Trillion pounds in debt now.

Okay.....I've just Googled it, ( I'm going to get in trouble for that, just watch ), here it is........

http://www.debtbombshell.com/

.

Edited November 5, 2012 by theblether

[MAJIC]

As I said........you guys can keep the national debt and we'll let you keep 30% of the oil and gas, sounds like a good deal to me.

Well yes! a better deal than you think.The National Debt in the UK was paid off a few years ago!

The national debt has never been bigger in cash terms, it has been bigger as a percentage of GDP though. I haven't Googled it but I think we're around 1 Trillion pounds in debt now.

Okay.....I've just Googled it, ( I'm going to get in trouble for that, just watch ), here it is........

http://www.debtbombshell.com/

.

Yes I saw it already,I cancelled my post,but it still went through,perhaps it was the National debt for the second world war to America that was paid off???

[theblether]

That's correct, I apologize I noticed you had cancelled your post after I posted, the War Debt was paid off on 31.12.99, from memory the National Debt at the end of the war was about 240% of GDP.

[7by7]

You are not prepared to accept sourced information from the BBC or British broadsheets, but will accept opinons printed in the Washinton Post, YOU really do like to pick and choose.

Anyome readimg this thread will see that my first link re the UNSC situation was nothing to do with the Washimgton Post, and it was only to illustrate that there was a conversation taking place. Luckily 7x7 provided links proving my point, as did Folium, and 7x7 confirmed that he knew the situation under review. The WP only added a timely confirmation that the issue was live and relevant. So the point has been established and accepted.

Here we go again.

Your first link re the UNSC did not mention Scottish independence at all, according to folium who has read it. I asked you for a quote from it which did mention Scottish independence; you have yet to provide one.

The only link you have provided mentioning Scottish independence in this regard is to an opinion piece in the Washington post which says that there is 'speculation' but does not say where or by whom!

You accept that one article as proof of your argument re the UNSC, but wont accept quotes and articles in the Scottish press showing that Salmond wanted a second question!

The links provided by folium and myself show that UNSC reform has been discussed for 10 years or more; without any mention being made of Scottish independence.

What is the issue you want me to answer 7x7?

Well, I told you, again, and again you picked on minor points and ignored the big issue.

You are again bringing up the myth propounded by Salmond and his party that Scotland will become a paradise paid for by North Sea oil and a 15% corporation tax rate; yet have again failed to address the issue of loss of the subsidy Scotland currently receives from the UK treasury (you seem to have forgotten that more is spent per head by the UK government in Scotland than is raised in taxes).

You have also ignored the loss of UK government contracts and closure of UK bases in Scotland which will result in massive unemployment.

I ask again, why would companies base themselves in Scotland with a 15% corporation tax rate when they can already get a lower rate elsewhere in Europe; the RoI for example?

You talk about negotiation; yes there will have to be some; the national debt for example. A large part of that debt is money borrowed to be spent in Scotland. I am sure that the UK government will want to ensure an independent Scotland will take over it's fair share. Salmond wont want this, but he wont get his way.

The UK government together with the Bank of England do control Sterling; if Scotland wants to continue using Sterling as it's currency it will be on the terms set by the UK government.

But if Scotland is stupid enough to vote 'Yes' what else is there to negotiate? You will have decided to leave the union; why should the UK government give you anything?

An independent Scotland within the EU; fine, but if you join the Euro your fiscal policy will be set by Brussels,

I ask again; fiscal policy set either in Westminster or in Brussels; how is either option independence?

Answers this time? Or will you again pull the politician's trick of ignoring the question asked and answering the question you wish had been asked?

You may feel that supercilious remarks that I don't understand Scottish history or Scottish politics may get you out of the hole you have dug yourself here; but they wont get Salmond out of his hole when the Scottish people, the majority of whom have a similar understanding of these matters as I, discover the truth.

For their sakes I hope it is before the day of the referendum and not after when they wonder why their taxes are going up and services being cut!

You may say that, despite the evidence to the contrary, Salmond didn't want a second question on so called Devo Max put on the ballot paper; but if the views expressed by you here are the same as those of the SNP's then they don't want independence at all; they want this devo max option where the rest of the UK gives them lots of money which they then decide how to spend!

Edited November 5, 2012 by 7by7

[theblether]

Your first link re the UNSC did not mention Scottish independence at all, according to folium who has read it. I asked you for a quote from it which did mention Scottish independence; you have yet to provide one.

I didn't at any point say that the first link mentioned Scottish Independence. The link was to demonstrate that there was a conversation taking place about the UK's position on the UNSC. You have admitted that you knew there was a conversation taking place about it, in fact, you even supplied links to confirm it.

So I don't know why you are so wrapped on this point when you have already confessed to knowing that I'm right.

[theblether]

@7x7, as for your other points, which quite frankly are tiresome, all you need to know is this........the UK is partly owned by Scotland, do not make the mistake of thinking it's an England V Scotland battle, it is not. England owns nothing, the UK owns everything, and the terms will be settled under a treaty between the current entity known as the UK and the new state of Scotland. The problem for the UK is, while the negotiations are taking place, Scotland is still an integral part of the UK. In effect, the UK cannot win.

This is a concept that too many narrow minded and bigoted people from the administrative area known as England cannot get to grips with. You have some concept that the negotiation will be a them against us situ, you're forgetting that we own the UK as much as you do. There is no mechanism in place to remove Scottish MP's from the chamber at this time, in effect the Scots will be a 5th Column, working on the inside to get the best deal.

Any concept you have of being English, forget it, you're a false state, that can't even be trusted to run your own assembly, unlike we Scots, Northern Irish and Welsh. You really need to up your game.

That must be so annoying for you

ps re the Corporation Tax and ROI, cryptic clue.........Irish Sea.

People that know anything about it know what I'm talking about.........you should Google it.

Edited November 5, 2012 by theblether

[7by7]

the reason I brought up the Veto issue was to point out the danger of Scottish Independence weakening the UK at the top table,

Read your own posts, Sir.

Again you have dodged the hard issues and instead made a supercilious reply; if you are not in politics already; you should be!

Where have I said that England owns anything? I haven't, you are correct; the UK owns it. But if Scotland leaves the UK it will not be part of the UK anymore. You, yourself, have said that Scotland will have to negotiate with the UK the terms of independence; but Scotland will be negotiating from a position of weakness, the UK will have what Scotland wants; the UK will hold all the cards, Scotland will hold nothing.

I ask again; you have decided to leave; why should the UK give you anything?

Await yet another supercilious reply which ignores the tough questions with ever increasing ennui.

BTW, as you seem to be confused over my use of the term 'UK' and seem to think I mean England let me make it clear that I mean the rest of the UK after Scotland has left; i.e. England, Northern Ireland and Wales..

[theblether]

the reason I brought up the Veto issue was to point out the danger of Scottish Independence weakening the UK at the top table,

Read your own posts, Sir.

Again you have dodged the hard issues and instead made a supercilious reply; if you are not in politics already; you should be!

Where have I said that England owns anything? I haven't, you are correct; the UK owns it. But if Scotland leaves the UK it will not be part of the UK anymore. You, yourself, have said that Scotland will have to negotiate with the UK the terms of independence; but Scotland will be negotiating from a position of weakness, the UK will have what Scotland wants; the UK will hold all the cards, Scotland will hold nothing.

I ask again; you have decided to leave; why should the UK give you anything?

Await yet another supercilious reply which ignores the tough questions with ever increasing ennui.

BTW, as you seem to be confused over my use of the term 'UK' and seem to think I mean England let me make it clear that I mean the rest of the UK after Scotland has left; i.e. England, Northern Ireland and Wales..

Is it supercilious to point out the fact that the negotiation will not take place between a separate state called Scotland and the UK? Scotland will not be a separate entity until after the negotiation has been completed, in fact we will not be a separate entity until the date of Independence.

Why can you not understand that?

[smokie36]

I think you're failing to realise that in the unlikely event Scotland chooses independence there will be no real United Kingdom any more. A negotiation will take place between former member states and Scottish assets and the English debt will fall on to its rightful owners!

[7by7]

Is it supercilious to point out the fact that the negotiation will not take place between a separate state called Scotland and the UK? Scotland will not be a separate entity until after the negotiation has been completed, in fact we will not be a separate entity until the date of Independence.

Why can you not understand that?

You obviously fail to grasp the simple fact that it will be Scotland who wants to leave, not the rest of the UK making Scotland leave. This means that Scotland will have nothing to negotiate with!

Why can you not understand that?

And why do you not admit that you do not know the answers to the tough questions asked by myself and others?

As you have been unable to find the answers this must mean that Salmond and the SNP either also don't know them or, much worse, do know them but are hiding them from the Scottish people!

[theblether]

I think you're failing to realise that in the unlikely event Scotland chooses independence there will be no real United Kingdom any more. A negotiation will take place between former member states and Scottish assets and the English debt will fall on to its rightful owners!

They really have no idea of the process Smokie, every time they talk about "Why would the UK give anything" it shows up the fact that they don't understand that the UK will have no choice, the UK has to settle with Scotland just as much as Scotland has to settle with the UK. The pressure will fall on the UK to settle more than Scotland as the financial markets will demand a quick settlements, and foreign governments will start to negotiate with the Scots direct.

On top of that you can be sure the EU will be first in line to ensure an orderly transition, it's in the best interest of the EU to prove that countries can be born peacefully and via the democratic process, it put's down a marker for the rest of Europe, do it right, do it at the ballot box, and we will support you.

[7by7]

I think you're failing to realise that in the unlikely event Scotland chooses independence there will be no real United Kingdom any more. A negotiation will take place between former member states and Scottish assets and the English debt will fall on to its rightful owners!

As much of the Scottish infrastructure (assets) was paid for by English taxpayers, how will you pay us back; a lump sum or installments?

I doubt anyone expects an independent Scotland to take on English debt, but will Scotland accept it's fair share of the current UK's national debt?

I asked theblether this; he wont answer; will you?

[7by7]

They really have no idea of the process Smokie, every time they talk about "Why would the UK give anything" it shows up the fact that they don't understand that the UK will have no choice, the UK has to settle with Scotland just as much as Scotland has to settle with the UK.

The UK does have to settle with Scotland, but it will be on the UK's terms.

Just as Cameron outsmarted Salmond on the ballot paper question.

Edited November 5, 2012 by 7by7

[theblether]

Is it supercilious to point out the fact that the negotiation will not take place between a separate state called Scotland and the UK? Scotland will not be a separate entity until after the negotiation has been completed, in fact we will not be a separate entity until the date of Independence.

Why can you not understand that?

You obviously fail to grasp the simple fact that it will be Scotland who wants to leave, not the rest of the UK making Scotland leave. This means that Scotland will have nothing to negotiate with!

Why can you not understand that?

And why do you not admit that you do not know the answers to the tough questions asked by myself and others?

As you have been unable to find the answers this must mean that Salmond and the SNP either also don't know them or, much worse, do know them but are hiding them from the Scottish people!

No, your totally wrong and naive with it to believe that, we own the assets of the UK, we own 44% of the land mass, we own the rights to the majority of the oil and gas, we are in possession of the nuclear base, we own vast coastal areas, fishing rights, the Crown Estates in Scotland will fall to us, I could go on and on......if you honestly believe we have nothing to negotiate with then you need to start Googling again.

You know, the problem with Google is, it's good at specific subjects, crap at overall pictures.

[theblether]

I think you're failing to realise that in the unlikely event Scotland chooses independence there will be no real United Kingdom any more. A negotiation will take place between former member states and Scottish assets and the English debt will fall on to its rightful owners!

As much of the Scottish infrastructure (assets) was paid for by English taxpayers, how will you pay us back; a lump sum or installments?

I doubt anyone expects an independent Scotland to take on English debt, but will Scotland accept it's fair share of the current UK's national debt?

I asked theblether this; he wont answer; will you?

The UK taxpayers paid, there is no such thing as an English taxpayer......for that to be the case payments would need to be issued from the English Treasury.....and I've never heard of that, have you?

Edited November 5, 2012 by theblether

[theblether]

They really have no idea of the process Smokie, every time they talk about "Why would the UK give anything" it shows up the fact that they don't understand that the UK will have no choice, the UK has to settle with Scotland just as much as Scotland has to settle with the UK.

The UK does have to settle with Scotland, but it will be on the UK's terms.

Just as Cameron outsmarted Salmond on the ballot paper question.

He outsmarted him by giving him what he wanted?......oh yes, that was very smart

[7by7]

Of course, I had forgotten that you are ignoring all the evidence that Salmond wanted a second question.

Or was that just a negotiating ploy? If it was, he lost that negotiation!

[7by7]

I think you're failing to realise that in the unlikely event Scotland chooses independence there will be no real United Kingdom any more. A negotiation will take place between former member states and Scottish assets and the English debt will fall on to its rightful owners!

As much of the Scottish infrastructure (assets) was paid for by English taxpayers, how will you pay us back; a lump sum or installments?

I doubt anyone expects an independent Scotland to take on English debt, but will Scotland accept it's fair share of the current UK's national debt?

I asked theblether this; he wont answer; will you?

The UK taxpayers paid, there is no such thing as an English taxpayer......for that to be the case payments would need to be issued from the English Treasury.....and I've never heard of that, have you?

As you well know, the UK government spends more per head in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales than it receives per head in taxation. It spends less per head in England than it receives per head in taxation.

Q.E.D.

[smokie36]

Of course, I had forgotten that you are ignoring all the evidence that Salmond wanted a second question.

Or was that just a negotiating ploy? If it was, he lost that negotiation!

7by7 surely even you can see that a single simple question as it is being asked is the best option for Salmond?

It leaves matters easy for the electorate....which is always a smart option for a yes vote. Confuse them and they will just not bother showing up.

Politics is a dirty business mate!

[theblether]

I think you're failing to realise that in the unlikely event Scotland chooses independence there will be no real United Kingdom any more. A negotiation will take place between former member states and Scottish assets and the English debt will fall on to its rightful owners!

As much of the Scottish infrastructure (assets) was paid for by English taxpayers, how will you pay us back; a lump sum or installments?

I doubt anyone expects an independent Scotland to take on English debt, but will Scotland accept it's fair share of the current UK's national debt?

I asked theblether this; he wont answer; will you?

The UK taxpayers paid, there is no such thing as an English taxpayer......for that to be the case payments would need to be issued from the English Treasury.....and I've never heard of that, have you?

As you well know, the UK government spends more per head in Scotland, Northern Ireland and Wales than it receives per head in taxation. It spends less per head in England than it receives per head in taxation.

Q.E.D.

That's cos there's a lot more heads in England........and density of population helps aggregate costs immensely. You also know that Scotland has poured immense human capital and resources into the UK, so don't be making us out to be second class citizens, we are far from that.

Anyway......tell me about this English Treasury again?

[7by7]

I do accept that there will have to be negotiations after the vote and before independence, should the vote be a yes. I have never said otherwise.

Worth repeating what I said earlier in this topic

One big problem for both governments should the vote be a yes is sorting out the finances. As Jeremy Warner wrote in the Daily Telegraph the other day

Critical issues such as the share of the national debt Scotland takes on, whether it is made liable for the tens of billions spent bailing out Scottish banks, what share of tax revenues from North Sea oil belongs to Scotland, and therefore what sort of a fiscal position it will be in after separation, are likely to remain unanswered.

Now obviously, Alex Salmond, Scotland’s First Minister, has his wish list. It goes something like this. You keep all the national debt, we keep all the oil and, since it was London that messed up so spectacularly in regulating the Scottish banks, you can keep those liabilities too. Salmond is demanding a whopper of a divorce settlement, even though he is, as it were, the guilty party. That Westminster would just roll over and let its tummy be tickled seems unlikely. But it is the monetary arrangements that are the most problematic, and which are the real Achilles’ heel in the economic case for separation.

Salmond says that Scotland would eventually join the Euro, and remain in Sterling until the time was right for that. But would the Westminster government be prepared to allow an independent Scotland to do so? Would the Bank of England be prepared to take on the risks of being lender of last resort to a foreign government?

As Warner says in his conclusion

The point is that monetary union doesn’t work unless those involved are in pretty much perfect economic, fiscal, monetary and political alignment. We are therefore left with one over-riding question about Scottish separation: beyond bravado and grandstanding by a small cadre of senior politicians, what precisely is the point of it?

I don't often agree with comment in the Telegraph, but on this occasion do.

[7by7]

That's cos there's a lot more heads in England

Would you like me to explain what 'per head' means very slowly in very simple terms?

Anyway......tell me about this English Treasury again?

You're the one banging on about an English treasury, not I.

Edited November 5, 2012 by 7by7

[theblether]

Of course, I had forgotten that you are ignoring all the evidence that Salmond wanted a second question.

Or was that just a negotiating ploy? If it was, he lost that negotiation!

7by7 surely even you can see that a single simple question as it is being asked is the best option for Salmond?

It leaves matters easy for the electorate....which is always a smart option for a yes vote. Confuse them and they will just not bother showing up.

Politics is a dirty business mate!

It's a fundamental misunderstanding by the English contingent........they don't understand how it came to be that the SNP were elected to be a majority government, and even better than that, they don't understand that it was within David Cameron's power to REFUSE A REFERENDUM!!!

They think that the ghost issue of a second question was the victory, the real victory was GETTING AGREEMENT TO A REFERENDUM AT ALL!!!!

7x7, I bet you didn't know that Cameron could have refused the referendum.

Edited November 5, 2012 by theblether

[theblether]

That's cos there's a lot more heads in England

Would you like me to explain what 'per head' means very slowly in very simple terms?

You're the one banging on about an English treasury, not I.

I'm pretty sure it's you that keeps referring to English taxpayers, in fact, I'm certain of it.

As for your snide insinuation about per head.......I know what it means, do you understand statistics? Shall I take you through the works of WE Deming? You need to learn that statistics only give you a a parameter, the clever man knows how to analyse and understand them.

Edited November 5, 2012 by theblether

[7by7]

7by7 surely even you can see that a single simple question as it is being asked is the best option for Salmond?

It is certainly the best option for Cameron; but if it is the best option for Salmond why did he want, ok is reported to have wanted, a second question?

[smokie36]

I think you're failing to realise that in the unlikely event Scotland chooses independence there will be no real United Kingdom any more. A negotiation will take place between former member states and Scottish assets and the English debt will fall on to its rightful owners!

As much of the Scottish infrastructure (assets) was paid for by English taxpayers, how will you pay us back; a lump sum or installments?

I doubt anyone expects an independent Scotland to take on English debt, but will Scotland accept it's fair share of the current UK's national debt?

I asked theblether this; he wont answer; will you?

Its an interesting question isn't it?

Of course I can't answer that. No one can at the moment....it will be down to tough negotiation following a yes vote if that happens.

Voters here will choose based upon long term financial projection. Parents for the education of their children....the kids for the future they envisage....the lazy for the best welfare provision and on and on.

Many different points of view on the issue however many of us will vote to be in control of our country and its own future. We see the mess that is England and don't want to head down that road thanks!

[theblether]

7by7 surely even you can see that a single simple question as it is being asked is the best option for Salmond?

It is certainly the best option for Cameron; but if it is the best option for Salmond why did he want, ok is reported to have wanted, a second question?

Reported by whom?......link please to any speech by Salmond or Sturgeon where they asked for a second question.

[theblether]

I think you're failing to realise that in the unlikely event Scotland chooses independence there will be no real United Kingdom any more. A negotiation will take place between former member states and Scottish assets and the English debt will fall on to its rightful owners!

As much of the Scottish infrastructure (assets) was paid for by English taxpayers, how will you pay us back; a lump sum or installments?

I doubt anyone expects an independent Scotland to take on English debt, but will Scotland accept it's fair share of the current UK's national debt?

I asked theblether this; he wont answer; will you?

Its an interesting question isn't it?

Of course I can't answer that. No one can at the moment....it will be down to tough negotiation following a yes vote if that happens.

Voters here will choose based upon long term financial projection. Parents for the education of their children....the kids for the future they envisage....the lazy for the best welfare provision and on and on.

Many different points of view on the issue however many of us will vote to be in control of our country and its own future. We see the mess that is England and don't want to head down that road thanks!

Yes, and it is quite ridiculous to expect me to know the answer to that question........I lay you odds there is no one in the UK knows the answer to that question at the moment.

[smokie36]

Another interesting point is that a yes vote will not mean Scotland automatically becoming an independent country. All it will mean is that we wish to do so.

Should negotiating terms become unfavourable Scotland may choose not to go its own way.

There are many twists and turns ahead I believe on this issue!