Britain, Scotland Sign Deal For Independence Referendum

[7by7]

I'm pretty sure it's you that keeps referring to English taxpayers, in fact, I'm certain of it.

English taxpayers, yes. But I challenge you to show one post where i have referred to an English treasury; except the one above where I remind you that it is you who keeps referring to such a thing, not I.

When you have failed to find one, I will accept your apology.

Lies, damned lies and statistics, yes, I know.

But the fact still remains that more money flows north of the border than south.

Yes, Cameron could have refused a referendum, but he didn't; he's a democrat. Still got it on his terms though!

You keep going on about a majority SNP government; no such thing. Yes they have a majority in the Scottish Parliament; which is really just one step up from a county council, but they haven't got the majority of Scottish seats in the real Parliament at Westminster; that honour goes to Labour, and the SNP share of the vote in Westminster elections has been steadily dwindling.

Which amply demonstrates what the majority of the Scottish people think of them.

[7by7]

7by7 surely even you can see that a single simple question as it is being asked is the best option for Salmond?

It is certainly the best option for Cameron; but if it is the best option for Salmond why did he want, ok is reported to have wanted, a second question?

Reported by whom?......link please to any speech by Salmond or Sturgeon where they asked for a second question.

I've already given you two links; to Scottish newspapers.

[theblether]

Another interesting point is that a yes vote will not mean Scotland automatically becoming an independent country. All it will mean is that we wish to do so.

Should negotiating terms become unfavourable Scotland may choose not to go its own way.

There are many twists and turns ahead I believe on this issue!

<deleted> Smokie don't tell them that

Yes that's true......if the deal doesn't suit Scotland then Scotland will refuse it and remain within the UK. It's the unspoken option.

Good deal for us or no deal

[theblether]

7by7 surely even you can see that a single simple question as it is being asked is the best option for Salmond?

It is certainly the best option for Cameron; but if it is the best option for Salmond why did he want, ok is reported to have wanted, a second question?

Reported by whom?......link please to any speech by Salmond or Sturgeon where they asked for a second question.

I've already given you two links; to Scottish newspapers.

No you haven't.....you've given links to reporters speculation.....you cannot prove that the second question was at any time official SNP policy......as it never was. Now then 7x7.....I'm going to be nice to you.....I'm going to give you a link that explains what the whole second question issue was about, and this is a link where AS uttered the words / concept.

Here we go......enjoy

http://peterabell.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/salmonds-second-question-strategy.html

[theblether]

I'm pretty sure it's you that keeps referring to English taxpayers, in fact, I'm certain of it.

English taxpayers, yes. But I challenge you to show one post where i have referred to an English treasury; except the one above where I remind you that it is you who keeps referring to such a thing, not I.

When you have failed to find one, I will accept your apology.

Lies, damned lies and statistics, yes, I know.

But the fact still remains that more money flows north of the border than south.

Yes, Cameron could have refused a referendum, but he didn't; he's a democrat. Still got it on his terms though!

You keep going on about a majority SNP government; no such thing. Yes they have a majority in the Scottish Parliament; which is really just one step up from a county council, but they haven't got the majority of Scottish seats in the real Parliament at Westminster; that honour goes to Labour, and the SNP share of the vote in Westminster elections has been steadily dwindling.

Which amply demonstrates what the majority of the Scottish people think of them.

Ah there you go again, denigrating the Westminster Parliament, denigrating the Scottish electorate, and misunderstanding what has happened here by pretending Cameron wanted a referendum. he had no choice.......he was boxed in by the British Politician of the Year, Alex Salmond.

I never said you mentioned English Treasury......you keep going on about English taxpayers paying for the infrastructure North of the border........I merely pointed out to you that it was UK taxpayers, England is merely an administrative part of the UK.

[nontabury]

Correct......and our youngsters are allowed to join up at 16. I regard this as a petty issue, I know youngsters who are emenintly more sensible and switched on than some of the adults I meet on a daily basis.

The issue has been noted in Scotland but no one is manning the barricades about it. There is no guarantee that this age group will vote for Independence either.

I will lay you odds that no matter how many newly enfranchised teenagers turn out to vote they will still be outnumbered by the adults that can't be bothered.

Maybe you should aim your ire at them.

Have there been any opinion polls to gauge how the Scottish schoolkids will vote? I would assume so or else Salmond wouldn't be asking for then to be included.

There's always the worry that their judgement may not yet be sound like all those who voted Westlife ahead of The Beatles as the greatest band of the millenium.

Surely the Scottish youngsters voted for the Bay City Rollers.

[smokie36]

No you haven't.....you've given links to reporters speculation.....you cannot prove that the second question was at any time official SNP policy......as it never was. Now then 7x7.....I'm going to be nice to you.....I'm going to give you a link that explains what the whole second question issue was about, and this is a link where AS uttered the words / concept.

Here we go......enjoy

http://peterabell.bl...n-strategy.html

Thanks for that link.

[smokie36]

Surely the Scottish youngsters voted for the Bay City Rollers.

Its like export only whisky!

[theblether]

No you haven't.....you've given links to reporters speculation.....you cannot prove that the second question was at any time official SNP policy......as it never was. Now then 7x7.....I'm going to be nice to you.....I'm going to give you a link that explains what the whole second question issue was about, and this is a link where AS uttered the words / concept.

Here we go......enjoy

http://peterabell.bl...n-strategy.html

Thanks for that link.

It's a cracker eh?......it just goes to show how many muppets fell for a simple bit of political manouvering.

[nontabury]

Theblether,

The last three Prime Ministers have either been Scottish or Scottish heritage.......we must be doing something right.

///////:///////////----------//////////////////

Would have agreed with you about the merits of the Scottish educational system,then you remind us that both Blair and Brown are Scottish.Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

[theblether]

Theblether,

The last three Prime Ministers have either been Scottish or Scottish heritage.......we must be doing something right.

///////:///////////----------//////////////////

Would have agreed with you about the merits of the Scottish educational system,then you remind us that both Blair and Brown are Scottish.Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

Do you mind?.....I was being obtuse. You know what I think of those two, especially that half wit Brown.

[nontabury]

Of course, I had forgotten that you are ignoring all the evidence that Salmond wanted a second question.

Or was that just a negotiating ploy? If it was, he lost that negotiation!

7by7 surely even you can see that a single simple question as it is being asked is the best option for Salmond?

It leaves matters easy for the electorate....which is always a smart option for a yes vote. Confuse them and they will just not bother showing up.

Politics is a dirty business mate!

It's a fundamental misunderstanding by the English contingent........they don't understand how it came to be that the SNP were elected to be a majority government, and even better than that, they don't understand that it was within David Cameron's power to REFUSE A REFERENDUM!!!

They think that the ghost issue of a second question was the victory, the real victory was GETTING AGREEMENT TO A REFERENDUM AT ALL!!!!

7x7, I bet you didn't know that Cameron could have refused the referendum.

Well,I did, and to be honest with you,I was more worried he would refuse a referendum.

It's the only chance England have of gaining independence from Scotland.

[smokie36]

@nontabury......you are wasted here. Away and start your own independence campaign....!

[smokie36]

Theblether,

The last three Prime Ministers have either been Scottish or Scottish heritage.......we must be doing something right.

///////:///////////----------//////////////////

Would have agreed with you about the merits of the Scottish educational system,then you remind us that both Blair and Brown are Scottish.Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

Do you mind?.....I was being obtuse. You know what I think of those two, especially that half wit Brown.

He was at school with my old man....my dad thought he was a <deleted> an all....

[theblether]

Of course, I had forgotten that you are ignoring all the evidence that Salmond wanted a second question.

Or was that just a negotiating ploy? If it was, he lost that negotiation!

7by7 surely even you can see that a single simple question as it is being asked is the best option for Salmond?

It leaves matters easy for the electorate....which is always a smart option for a yes vote. Confuse them and they will just not bother showing up.

Politics is a dirty business mate!

It's a fundamental misunderstanding by the English contingent........they don't understand how it came to be that the SNP were elected to be a majority government, and even better than that, they don't understand that it was within David Cameron's power to REFUSE A REFERENDUM!!!

They think that the ghost issue of a second question was the victory, the real victory was GETTING AGREEMENT TO A REFERENDUM AT ALL!!!!

7x7, I bet you didn't know that Cameron could have refused the referendum.

Well,I did, and to be honest with you,I was more worried he would refuse a referendum.

It's the only chance England have of gaining independence from Scotland.

What is this witchcraft? English Independence?? No you will forever be tied in servitude to your Celtic masters

The Welsh and NI will continue to bleed you dry, and there's nothing you can do about it.

[theblether]

Theblether,

The last three Prime Ministers have either been Scottish or Scottish heritage.......we must be doing something right.

///////:///////////----------//////////////////

Would have agreed with you about the merits of the Scottish educational system,then you remind us that both Blair and Brown are Scottish.Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.

Do you mind?.....I was being obtuse. You know what I think of those two, especially that half wit Brown.

He was at school with my old man....my dad thought he was a <deleted> an all....

Your Dad was right...........

[7by7]

I'm going to give you a link that explains what the whole second question issue was about, and this is a link where AS uttered the words / concept.

Here we go......enjoy

http://peterabell.bl...n-strategy.html

Ah yes, Alex Salmond, says one thing in 2011, the opposite in 2012. Not unusual for him. Read the articles I linked to.

Condemned out of his own mouth.

[media]

[media]

Note that you have again wandered off onto one point and are, yet again, ignoring the big issues.

You will no doubt now ask, again "What issues" so to save you the trouble; read back my and your posts since you last asked that question.

Work's going to keep me away from here until Wednesday, so you've got plenty of time to find and answer.

[theblether]

I'm going to give you a link that explains what the whole second question issue was about, and this is a link where AS uttered the words / concept.

Here we go......enjoy

http://peterabell.bl...n-strategy.html

Ah yes, Alex Salmond, says one thing in 2011, the opposite in 2012. Not unusual for him. Read the articles I linked to.

Condemned out of his own mouth.

[media]

[media]

Note that you have again wandered off onto one point and are, yet again, ignoring the big issues.

You will no doubt now ask, again "What issues" so to save you the trouble; read back my and your posts since you last asked that question.

Work's going to keep me away from here until Wednesday, so you've got plenty of time to find and answer.

I'm quite aware of that interview........were you aware that only the UK government could ask for clarification? The only opinion that is relevant and binding is the opinion that the EU are WILLING TO GIVE, but Cameron will not request or allow it as he is SCARED OF THE ANSWER, as he knows that the answer is.......SCOTLAND WILL BE GUARANTEED ENTRY INTO THE EU, and that there is no mechanism in EU law to strip ANY EU CITIZEN OF CITIZENSHIP.

So this victory that you are celebrating has a massive boomerang attached to it........Cameron very soon will have to request clarification, as to not ask for clarification, will look CHILDISH, ANTI-DEMOCTRATIC and IGNORANT.

Once again he has walked straight into a trap. Just like you did 7x7, you don't have enough basal knowledge about Scottish politics to get involved in a debate like this. I asked you several questions about Donald Dewar / Devolution / Tony Blair et al a few pages back and you didn't answer them. That's because you can't work it out. I'll now ask you another question.......what did Tam Dalyell say?

If you get it wrong then your credibility in this debate will be zero and I will ignore any further input from you.

[StreetCowboy]

I'm assuming that anyone who relinquishes their British citizenship and becomes a citizen of say, Thailand, would lose their EU citizenship as well. I assume that would also be the case if we relinquished our British citizenship and our second country was not a member of the EU; for example if Scotland fails to achieve membership.

More vexing is the question of whether we will be robbed of our British citizenship, if our compatriots elect for secession.

SC

[theblether]

To anyone reading this topic.......I am deliberately not explaining the background to this debate for two reasons......one being it would take me a 10,000 word essay to begin to explain the background and two......I'm interested to watch the blundering and floundering of the people who are putting themselves forward as experts on the matter.

You will find this is an SNP strategy.......to watch as the opponents of Independence paint themselves into a corner, such as the muppets that believed AS wanted a second question.

David Cameron had it within his power to state that even though the SNP had the majority of seats at Holyrood, the Unionist parties had the majority of votes at the last election so therefore he could have argued that the Scottish people had voted by substantial majority against the concept of Independence.

AS knew he had no legal right to compel a referendum, but David Cameron knew that if he refused it, as he had the right to do......he would have nailed himself to a cross in Scotland for evermore.

Once DC knew that he had to grant the Section 30 order transferring power to Holyrood, it was only a question of details, however let me state something now that I am pretty sure that AS and all other SNP supporters will agree with.

We knew we were in an uphill battle to ever see an Independence referendum in our lifetime. We knew that the Unionist parties, especially the Labour Party, were overwhelmingly in control of the popular vote in Scotland.

The fact that we now have a referendum on the way is a combination of political stupidity by the Labour Party, and political genius by Alex Salmond.

We cannot believe it......but it's true.

There will now be an Independence Referendum.

I'm going to submit two more posts on the subject just now..........

[theblether]

I'm assuming that anyone who relinquishes their British citizenship and becomes a citizen of say, Thailand, would lose their EU citizenship as well. I assume that would also be the case if we relinquished our British citizenship and our second country was not a member of the EU; for example if Scotland fails to achieve membership.

More vexing is the question of whether we will be robbed of our British citizenship, if our compatriots elect for secession.

SC

You're wrong SC.........we can quit the Union and we will still be EU citizens. The EU has already confirmed there is no mechanism to strip us of citizenship.

That stable door has been locked.

[theblether]

@7x7,

As for your other question about " what issues".......these issues you are on about are a matter for the electorate and the conditions we find ourselves in at October 2014. I did not say at any time that there were not difficult issues to answer, and I did say that I predict eventual defeat this time. However, after this referendum things will be a lot clearer.......we will know the true state of our potential future membership of the EU as a result of this referendum, and a lot more things will become clear and unarguable for the future.

The greatest and virtually unavoidable danger of this referendum for the UK government is making a rod for their own back.

David Cameron knows that, the Unionist Parties know that, and they know that they have allowed themselves to walk straight into a trap of their own making.........so.........

Edited November 6, 2012 by theblether

[theblether]

So......here's a multiple choice question for you.

Why did Alex Salmond want the referendum in October 2014?. Was it?..........

a) To hope that we get a feel good factor after the Ryder Cup is played at Gleneagles?

To hope that we get a feel good factor after the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow?

c) To hope that we get a feel good factor after the Commemoration of the 700th Hundred Anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn?

d) To give time for the Unionist parties to implode, to watch as an unpopular Coalition government within 6 months of a General election fights likes rats in a sack? to watch the effect on the electorate as the austerity cuts still affect people's day to day life's?

Hmmmm........I wonder

Edited November 6, 2012 by theblether

[nontabury]

If Scotlan gains it's independence after the forthcoming referendum, the remainder of the U.K. will be known as the Former

United Kingdom ( F.U.K.)

In a bid to discourage the Scotts from voting "YES" in the referendum, Unionist have now begun a campaign with the slogan : Please vote NO for F.U.K's sake! About which they feel the Scottish people can relate.

Particular those of Glaswegian genus !!

Edited November 6, 2012 by nontabury

[MAJIC]

Of course, I had forgotten that you are ignoring all the evidence that Salmond wanted a second question.

Or was that just a negotiating ploy? If it was, he lost that negotiation!

7by7 surely even you can see that a single simple question as it is being asked is the best option for Salmond?

It leaves matters easy for the electorate....which is always a smart option for a yes vote. Confuse them and they will just not bother showing up.

Politics is a dirty business mate!

It's a fundamental misunderstanding by the English contingent........they don't understand how it came to be that the SNP were elected to be a majority government, and even better than that, they don't understand that it was within David Cameron's power to REFUSE A REFERENDUM!!!

They think that the ghost issue of a second question was the victory, the real victory was GETTING AGREEMENT TO A REFERENDUM AT ALL!!!!

7x7, I bet you didn't know that Cameron could have refused the referendum.

So Cameron must have had a good reason for agreeing to a Referendom,and hardly thinking of big losses to Scotland,wouldn't you think?

[MAJIC]

So......here's a multiple choice question for you.

Why did Alex Salmond want the referendum in October 2014?. Was it?..........

a) To hope that we get a feel good factor after the Ryder Cup is played at Gleneagles?

To hope that we get a feel good factor after the Commonwealth Games in Glasgow?

c) To hope that we get a feel good factor after the Commemoration of the 700th Hundred Anniversary of the Battle of Bannockburn?

d) To give time for the Unionist parties to implode, to watch as an unpopular Coalition government within 6 months of a General election fights likes rats in a sack? to watch the effect on the electorate as the austerity cuts still affect people's day to day life's?

Hmmmm........I wonder

Or it could be as simple that Salmond needs the 2 years to try and convince the people to join him on his peoples suicide mission!

[smokie36]

As members of the same EU as England?

I don't see many suicides up here....political ones by each and every Tory perhaps.

I had one today telling me Scotland can't afford this and that yet, when I questioned this intelligent chap as to why, he seemed rather offended.

Tsk....reminded me of this thread....there's way too many closed minded assumptions by people who should know better....but at least one person walked away from our conversation with a mind to think things over more thoroughly.

I had already decided to approach the battle with an open mind.

Edited November 6, 2012 by smokie36

[theblether]

As members of the same EU as England?

I don't see many suicides up here....political ones by each and every Tory perhaps.

I had one today telling me Scotland can't afford this and that yet, when I questioned this intelligent chap as to why, he seemed rather offended.

Tsk....reminded me of this thread....there's way too many closed minded assumptions by people who should know better....but at least one person walked away from our conversation with a mind to think things over more thoroughly.

I had already decided to approach the battle with an open mind.

It's just another example of people not understanding how heavily stacked this process is in Scotland's favour............the SNP under the guidance of AS has boxed the Unionist parties into a corner.

The Unionist parties are in a daze.......by the time the Referendum comes round the Lib Dems and Tories will be tearing each other apart, and the Labour Party is still wondering how it has all come to this.

It came to this because the Labour Party wouldn't listen.......and tomorrow one of our esteemed members is going to come on this thread and tell us what they wouldn't listen to.

As you say Smokie.........there's not many suicides up here, except for the Tory party who committed suicide in the 60's and Zombified themselves forever in the 80's......and the Labour Party who are now saying <deleted> have we done???..........and Tony Blair whispering, I effin told you!!!

It's amusing how oblivious to all this our English compatriots are

[theblether]

Of course, I had forgotten that you are ignoring all the evidence that Salmond wanted a second question.

Or was that just a negotiating ploy? If it was, he lost that negotiation!

7by7 surely even you can see that a single simple question as it is being asked is the best option for Salmond?

It leaves matters easy for the electorate....which is always a smart option for a yes vote. Confuse them and they will just not bother showing up.

Politics is a dirty business mate!

It's a fundamental misunderstanding by the English contingent........they don't understand how it came to be that the SNP were elected to be a majority government, and even better than that, they don't understand that it was within David Cameron's power to REFUSE A REFERENDUM!!!

They think that the ghost issue of a second question was the victory, the real victory was GETTING AGREEMENT TO A REFERENDUM AT ALL!!!!

7x7, I bet you didn't know that Cameron could have refused the referendum.

So Cameron must have had a good reason for agreeing to a Referendom,and hardly thinking of big losses to Scotland,wouldn't you think?

Cameron had no choice.

That's a pretty poor position to find yourself in eh?

[MAJIC]

Of course, I had forgotten that you are ignoring all the evidence that Salmond wanted a second question.

Or was that just a negotiating ploy? If it was, he lost that negotiation!

7by7 surely even you can see that a single simple question as it is being asked is the best option for Salmond?

It leaves matters easy for the electorate....which is always a smart option for a yes vote. Confuse them and they will just not bother showing up.

Politics is a dirty business mate!

It's a fundamental misunderstanding by the English contingent........they don't understand how it came to be that the SNP were elected to be a majority government, and even better than that, they don't understand that it was within David Cameron's power to REFUSE A REFERENDUM!!!

They think that the ghost issue of a second question was the victory, the real victory was GETTING AGREEMENT TO A REFERENDUM AT ALL!!!!

7x7, I bet you didn't know that Cameron could have refused the referendum.

So Cameron must have had a good reason for agreeing to a Referendom,and hardly thinking of big losses to Scotland,wouldn't you think?

Cameron had no choice.

That's a pretty poor position to find yourself in eh?

Thought you said, Cameron could REFUSE A REFERENDUM.

Edited November 6, 2012 by MAJIC