Britain, Scotland Sign Deal For Independence Referendum

[folium]

Red herrings get smelly after they've been dragged around for a few days, and this particular red herring should be put in the rubbish - where it belongs

I think the disposition of Northern Ireland should England and Scotland go their separate ways is a hot potato, not a red herring.

Should someone who feels that Northern Ireland should remain in union with Scotland vote 'no' in the referendum on Scotland's independence? In other words, does independence for Scotland include independence from Northern Ireland?

This is a referendum by the Scottish electorate on independence for Scotland. There has never been any mention of Northern Ireland. Please stay on topic. What happens between England, Wales and Northern Ireland after Scotland leaves the Union is not up for discussion here as it does not affect Scotland.

That's not quite accurate. I have earlier brought up the subject of NI as TB said the issues there were a purely English creation and I had to remind him that there were and are still some very close ties between the "province" and Scotland (Scots-Irish and sectarianism etc), underscored by TB's comment that his dad was an Orange Order man. If you have ever spent an evening in Belfast post an Old Firm game you will know that the connection is sadly alive and "well" even today.

More relevantly the concept of Scottish independence is stirring the long held Republican aim of a united Ireland. Sadly much of the sectarian violence we are seeing today in Ulster reflects a growing fear amongst the hard line "loyalist" community that such an eventuality is becoming ever closer.

This is where the pro-independence crew do need to think above their navels and appreciate that secession is a loaded idea in many other parts of Europe, hence Barroso's public disapproval of the concept. While little blood has been shed in Scotland that is not the case in the Basque Territory or N. Ireland. It also stirs the pot in other secessionist minded areas of Europe.

So Scotland will need to see its decision in a larger context and similarly appreciate that outside reactions are based on the impact such a secession will have in other arenas. Many Scots probably do not yet appreciate that they are potentially opening up a Pandora's Box of unintended consequences. One can be narrow-minded and just say "<deleted>, not my problem". the more broad minded will see that by lighting such a potential blue touch paper the reaction to Scottish independence may well be far short of enthusiastic in many quarters overseas and these people will see independent Scotland as a threat rather than a positive addition to the mix.

[Richard W]

But one thing that strikes me is that Bulgaria became a member and did not use the euro. I was living there at the time

The requirement is to commit to the use of the euro. There is a Wikipedia article on Bulgaria's progress. I don't know what would happen if a commitment was found to be just lip service. Bulgaria and Poland have suspended plans to join, but I don't think their undertakings were fraudulent.

[jpinx]

Just a quick thank you for the note about Bulgaria, which demonstrates that it is possible to have time after independence to sort out EU membership and the euro. Likewise there is time to sort out people's passports. Nationality and citizenship are declared in one's passport, so that will be resolved then also. I would expect everyone on the scottish electoral roll to have the option of taking up a Scottish passport, with anyone else able to apply and prove their connections according to the usual rules - similar to UK or Ireland. The miniscule minority cases requiring deportation can probably be resolved on a case-by-case basis. It is certainly not something that will influence the voting

The N Ireland issue is most certainly a red herring and is specifically excluded from the process. The suggested reaction is not going to change the vote in Scotland because the voters in Scotland already know what the position is far better then observers from a forum in Thailand. As I have indicated many times, there is no way to explain that situation to someone who was not brought up in Scotland. Suffice to say - " If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. "

Edited December 22, 2012 by jpinx

[nontabury]

Difficult to find the answers in this thread!

All the awkward questions about what will happen should the SNP win have either been ignored by the pro SNP lobby or answered with the stock reply of "That will be negotiated after the 'Yes' vote!"

Not very helpful.

Particularly to the Scottish electorate as the SNP don't seem to have a clue about the actual mechanics of leaving the Union, nor how doing so will really effect the Scottish people.

Or maybe they do; but are scared of the Scottish people finding out?

All the way throughout this thread the SNP supporters have been saying that on separation,

,This is going to happen,that is going to happen,the outcome of negations will be xxxxx,basically they are saying the terms of the separation are those demanded by the SNP.

What about the rest of the country,I as an Englishman look forward to our independence from the over bearing Scots. When separation comes,and the sooner the better, I again, like an increasing number of English,will want a complete divorce from Scotland and everything Scottish.

This will include that the Scott's must have a separate currency=the EURO.

The terms on which they join the EU, will I suspect be Decided by the existing member states,not by the new applicant.

[smokie36]

Scottish voters will be looking for positive change for them, most will care little for issues surrounding currency or passports.

Even the issue of EU membership will matter little to most people.

Hatred of the English is not the issue....but a better future and more control over our own affairs.

[Richard W]

Just a quick thank you for the note about Bulgaria, which demonstrates that it is possible to have time after independence to sort out EU membership ...

Can you explain that? How will Scots abroad in the EU be covered if Scotland is not in the EU and they do not have the nationality of some other member state? EU membership needs to be sorted out before independence, and I think it would be. I notice that another mechanism has been proposed to cover EU workers in Scotland.

and the euro.

Agreed.

Likewise there is time to sort out people's passports. Nationality and citizenship are declared in one's passport, so that will be resolved then also.

No. For how long will the issue of (Scottish only?) passports be suspended while the law is worked out? Passports expiring a few years after independence might need to be renewed before independence and the suspension of passport issuing. Woe betide those Scots who forget or need to move babies across international borders!

I would expect everyone on the scottish electoral roll to have the option of taking up a Scottish passport, with anyone else able to apply and prove their connections according to the usual rules - similar to UK or Ireland. The miniscule minority cases requiring deportation can probably be resolved on a case-by-case basis. It is certainly not something that will influence the voting

Are the citizenship provisions of the 2011 version of the SNP's 'Constitution for a Free Scotland' available anywhere? Articel I(4) of the 2002 version makes interesting reading. If it is to come into force at or just after independence, I can see immigrants and Moslem extremists already in Britain flooding to Scotland just before independence to obtain irrevocable Scottish citizenship, even if they need digs in England to keep their day jobs. It also gets round the sole responsibility requirement for bringing children to the island of Britain. The children not only get in, but get instant citizenship on the basis of their parents' residence in Scotland when the new constitution comes in!

There are two problems. It might scupper the Common Travel Area, and the ECJ might try to overrule it on the basis that it was granting EU citizenship to people not clearly associated with Scotland, and was therefore an act of bad faith. I can see the Westminster parliament rejecting it for these very reasons, so maybe there would have to be a delay in its coming into force. It could significantly complicate the handling of the status of immigrants in the UK - UK leave may have to be split into Scottish and non-Scottish leave, whereas if current UK immigration law were cloned for the post-split parts of the UK, duplicated leave would sort itself out as leave expired.

It appears to deal with the immediate deportation issue - there won't be any! The potential deportees will become irrevocably Scottish under the 2002 SNP proposal!

Having read the citizenship section of the 2002 proposal, I am not surprised Theresa May has been muttering about border controls with Scotland.

[Richard W]

The N Ireland issue is most certainly a red herring and is specifically excluded from the process. The suggested reaction is not going to change the vote in Scotland because the voters in Scotland already know what the position is far better then observers from a forum in Thailand. As I have indicated many times, there is no way to explain that situation to someone who was not brought up in Scotland. Suffice to say - " If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. "

OK, so it is valid for Westminster to interpret a 'yes' vote for Scottish independence as agreeing to the setting up of the UK of Scotland and Northern Ireland. (That may further increase English support for Scottish independence, unless NI chooses England over Scotland.)

[nontabury]

Scottish voters will be looking for positive change for them, most will care little for issues surrounding currency or passports.

Even the issue of EU membership will matter little to most people.

Hatred of the English is not the issue....but a better future and more control over our own affairs.

Amazing,you say the Scottish voters will care little about their currency,and in doing so,also about their financial future."OH"my Buddha.

Again,an SNP supporter not prepared to face reality.

The EU does not have to negotiate with an application from Scotland,certainly not on the demands of the Scott's.The EU if they want, can simple inform the Scott's on what terms THEY,the EU,are prepared to accept for their entry,This would leave Scotland having to agree to those EU terms,however unfavorable they may be to the Scottish people.So much for control over your own affairs.

The same applies to the remaining parts of the UK,why should the UK agree to anything that a Scottish government demands, unless they thought it would be an acceptable price to be simple rid.

[bigbamboo]

Take one issue in the 'unravelling' of 300 years of union....... dual nationalty.

Why should the UK offer dual nationality to Scots if they chose to be independent? The law could be changed but of course with the country being run by the EU now it would be probably be challenged in the courts from here to doomsday.

[jpinx]

Just a quick fill-in while I am travelling but donmt have the chace to reply in detail...

I am not and never have been a member or supporter of the SNP so asking for me to produce any background information to support their views is not going to get much response from me

I am a huge supporter of democracy in action -- not the theoretical or political versions -- and having survived through several civil wars I am also a huge supporter of a people's right to self-determiation.

Lastly I am a great belliever in making the beaurocrats work for their living. If Scotlands people say they want indepndence, lock all the beaurocrats in a big room and don't let them out until it is done.

Overly simplistic I know, but I hope the principles are understood

[Richard W]

The EU does not have to negotiate with an application from Scotland,certainly not on the demands of the Scott's.The EU if they want, can simple inform the Scott's on what terms THEY,the EU,are prepared to accept for their entry,This would leave Scotland having to agree to those EU terms,however unfavorable they may be to the Scottish people.So much for control over your own affairs.

In an earlier post in this thread (click on the link to read it in full), I suggested a scheme for effectively giving Scotland independence while keeping it in the EU with the pound. It maintains a puppet UK of GB & NI, and therefore appears to legally counter EU objections. I think the other countries would rather deal directly with the two real states behind it, and therefore would accede to the stated Scottish aspirations rather than deal with such a puppet. I asked whether this puppet would satisfy Scottish demands for independence within the EU, and so be a tolerable option, but no-one has bothered to consider it seriously. The scheme is in the following post (click on the link, the icon before my name, to read it in full):

In what follows, I talk of an English state and a Scottish state because I do not want to prejudge how the four nations will be grouped.

<snip>

[Richard W]

I am not and never have been a member or supporter of the SNP so asking for me to produce any background information to support their views is not going to get much response from me

But someone here may be able to tell us or even point to a useful link.

Lastly I am a great belliever in making the beaurocrats work for their living. If Scotlands people say they want indepndence, lock all the beaurocrats in a big room and don't let them out until it is done.

I like the idea, but the outcome ought to be tolerable to the other three countries of the UK. This needs democratic input as well as bureaucratic work.

[nontabury]

The EU does not have to negotiate with an application from Scotland,certainly not on the demands of the Scott's.The EU if they want, can simple inform the Scott's on what terms THEY,the EU,are prepared to accept for their entry,This would leave Scotland having to agree to those EU terms,however unfavorable they may be to the Scottish people.So much for control over your own affairs.

In an earlier post in this thread (click on the link to read it in full), I suggested a scheme for effectively giving Scotland independence while keeping it in the EU with the pound. It maintains a puppet UK of GB & NI, and therefore appears to legally counter EU objections. I think the other countries would rather deal directly with the two real states behind it, and therefore would accede to the stated Scottish aspirations rather than deal with such a puppet. I asked whether this puppet would satisfy Scottish demands for independence within the EU, and so be a tolerable option, but no-one has bothered to consider it seriously. The scheme is in the following post (click on the link, the icon before my name, to read it in full):

In what follows, I talk of an English state and a Scottish state because I do not want to prejudge how the four nations will be grouped.

Because it would've be acceptable to any of the parties,far better to have a complete parting of the ways.

We are now on page 73 of this subject,everybody is just simple going around the same old points,It's all guesswork,nobody including the SNP knows the outcome of any negotiations in the event of a yes vote.I personally will only buy anything,if I knew exactly what I am buying.If the Scots do decide to vote Yes to something they don't know the outcome off,up to them.

[Richard W]

Why should the UK offer dual nationality to Scots if they chose to be independent? The law could be changed but of course with the country being run by the EU now it would be probably be challenged in the courts from here to doomsday.

I don't think we should allow all UK citizens who become Scottish citizens to be citizens of the rest of the UK (rUK), and I don't think the ECJ will object to our excluding many from citizenship. It ought to be possible to iron out a lot of problems by a 3-state Common Travel Area (RoI, Scotland+, rUK) and by continuing to treat resident citizens of RoI, Scotland+ and rUK as 'settled' and thereby allow their children born in the Common Travel Area to have the nationality of the state they are born in. Irish citizenship in this way is an entitlement rather than automatic; this prevents further imposition of Irish nationality on loyalists in NI. In theory, possessing Irish citizenship excludes UK citizens from certain jobs, and makes them vulnerable to deprivation of UK citizenship. The EU currently also offers a way round the possibility of people winding up with inappropriate nationalities, and the practice of enfranchising resident Commonwealth citizens will also help smooth matters.

There is a perception that Scotland will allow easy naturalisation to people who are not committed to Scotland and thereby become an easy immigration route to the EEA as a whole, and to England even if England withdraws from the EEA. If this reality materialises and the ECJ cannot induce Scotland to change its ways, this could wreck the Common Travel Area, as its budgetary justification would be lost if border controls were imposed to exclude what England considers fake Scots. Such exclusions would probably not be allowed under EU rules, but some exclusion of unnaturalised residents of Scotland would be.

As for the principal of allowing some people to have dual Scottish/rUK nationality, which is the literal meaning of the question, that seems entirely proper to me.

[Richard W]

It maintains a puppet UK of GB & NI, and therefore appears to legally counter EU objections.

Because it would've be acceptable to any of the parties,...

How can France object?

...far better to have a complete parting of the ways.

The idea is to force the other EU countries to accept Scotland in the EU with the pound sterling as its currency by threatening them with having this puppet as a continuing member of the EU if they don't. For the threat to work, it must be a tolerable option.

[phuketjock]

Red herrings get smelly after they've been dragged around for a few days, and this particular red herring should be put in the rubbish - where it belongs

I think the disposition of Northern Ireland should England and Scotland go their separate ways is a hot potato, not a red herring.

Should someone who feels that Northern Ireland should remain in union with Scotland vote 'no' in the referendum on Scotland's independence? In other words, does independence for Scotland include independence from Northern Ireland?

This is a referendum by the Scottish electorate on independence for Scotland. There has never been any mention of Northern Ireland. Please stay on topic. What happens between England, Wales and Northern Ireland after Scotland leaves the Union is not up for discussion here as it does not affect Scotland.

That's not quite accurate. I have earlier brought up the subject of NI as TB said the issues there were a purely English creation and I had to remind him that there were and are still some very close ties between the "province" and Scotland (Scots-Irish and sectarianism etc), underscored by TB's comment that his dad was an Orange Order man. If you have ever spent an evening in Belfast post an Old Firm game you will know that the connection is sadly alive and "well" even today.

More relevantly the concept of Scottish independence is stirring the long held Republican aim of a united Ireland. Sadly much of the sectarian violence we are seeing today in Ulster reflects a growing fear amongst the hard line "loyalist" community that such an eventuality is becoming ever closer.

This is where the pro-independence crew do need to think above their navels and appreciate that secession is a loaded idea in many other parts of Europe, hence Barroso's public disapproval of the concept. While little blood has been shed in Scotland that is not the case in the Basque Territory or N. Ireland. It also stirs the pot in other secessionist minded areas of Europe.

So Scotland will need to see its decision in a larger context and similarly appreciate that outside reactions are based on the impact such a secession will have in other arenas. Many Scots probably do not yet appreciate that they are potentially opening up a Pandora's Box of unintended consequences. One can be narrow-minded and just say "&lt;deleted&gt;, not my problem". the more broad minded will see that by lighting such a potential blue touch paper the reaction to Scottish independence may well be far short of enthusiastic in many quarters overseas and these people will see independent Scotland as a threat rather than a positive addition to the mix.

IMO absolute mindless nonsense!!!!

[phuketjock]

Difficult to find the answers in this thread!

All the awkward questions about what will happen should the SNP win have either been ignored by the pro SNP lobby or answered with the stock reply of "That will be negotiated after the 'Yes' vote!"

Not very helpful.

Particularly to the Scottish electorate as the SNP don't seem to have a clue about the actual mechanics of leaving the Union, nor how doing so will really effect the Scottish people.

Or maybe they do; but are scared of the Scottish people finding out?

All the way throughout this thread the SNP supporters have been saying that on separation,

,This is going to happen,that is going to happen,the outcome of negations will be xxxxx,basically they are saying the terms of the separation are those demanded by the SNP.

What about the rest of the country,I as an Englishman look forward to our independence from the over bearing Scots. When separation comes,and the sooner the better, I again, like an increasing number of English,will want a complete divorce from Scotland and everything Scottish.

This will include that the Scott's must have a separate currency=the EURO.

The terms on which they join the EU, will I suspect be Decided by the existing member states,not by the new applicant.

Fortunately or unfortunately depending on which side of the fence or border you stand, you are English

and will have no say whatsoever!!!!

[Rob8891]

Difficult to find the answers in this thread!

All the awkward questions about what will happen should the SNP win have either been ignored by the pro SNP lobby or answered with the stock reply of "That will be negotiated after the 'Yes' vote!"

Not very helpful.

Particularly to the Scottish electorate as the SNP don't seem to have a clue about the actual mechanics of leaving the Union, nor how doing so will really effect the Scottish people.

Or maybe they do; but are scared of the Scottish people finding out?

Please define the difficulties which remain unaddressed. We employ beaurocrats to do the mechanics, we only have to decide policy. The Scots are well aware of what it will mean to be independent. If that was not the case the SNP would not be controlling the Scottish Parliament now

I'll use your reply to bigbamboo and say go back through the thread. You'll find out the issues left unanswered by the pro SNP lobby very easily.

Ditto to why the SNP control the glorified county council which is the Scottish Parliament as presently constituted.

I have dropped out of posting in this thread due to some of the personal rants and comments that have diverted from an issue that is very important. However, your post prompts me to register this public complaint against your post, which I quote above.

Your comment insulting the Scottish Parliament is deeply offensive to Scotland and to Scots people, regardless of their political affiliations. If you have a scrap of decency, you will retract and apologise. I suggest you give a little more thought to your submissions before you press the "post" button. The only reason I can see for your wording was to inflame the thread and to incite reactions from others.

We await your unequivocable retraction and apology.

[7by7]

Ditto to why the SNP control the glorified county council which is the Scottish Parliament as presently constituted.

I have dropped out of posting in this thread due to some of the personal rants and comments that have diverted from an issue that is very important. However, your post prompts me to register this public complaint against your post, which I quote above.

Your comment insulting the Scottish Parliament is deeply offensive to Scotland and to Scots people, regardless of their political affiliations. If you have a scrap of decency, you will retract and apologise. I suggest you give a little more thought to your submissions before you press the "post" button. The only reason I can see for your wording was to inflame the thread and to incite reactions from others.

We await your unequivocable retraction and apology.

I refer you to my earlier post on this.

So, what powers does the Scottish Parliament actually have?

What are devolved and reserved matters?

Devolution is the transfer of powers from a central to a regional authority.

The Scotland Act 1998 (an Act of the UK Parliament) created a Scottish Parliament and passed to it the powers to make laws on a range of issues. These powers were extended by the Scotland Act 2012.

The issues upon which the Scottish Parliament can make laws are known as devolved matters.

However, some issues – in general, those with a UK-wide or international impact – remain the responsibility of the UK Parliament alone.

The issues upon which only the UK Parliament can make laws are known as reserved matters.

Devolved matters

Devolved matters include:

• agriculture, forestry and fisheries
  
• education and training
  
• environment
  
• health and social services
  
• housing
  
• law and order (including the licensing of air weapons)
  
• local government
  
• sport and the arts
  
• tourism and economic development
  
• transport (including drink-driving and speed limits).
  

Reserved matters

Reserved matters include:

• benefits and social security
  
• immigration
  
• defence
  
• foreign policy
  
• employment
  
• broadcasting
  
• trade and industry
  
• nuclear energy, oil, coal, gas and electricity
  
• consumer rights
  
• data protection
  
• the Constitution.
  

Before anyone derides the above as coming from a biased or unreliable source, it's actually from the Scottish Parliament.

Note that the lists are not complete. The full list can be found in Schedule 5 of the Scotland Act 1998.

Reserved powers not on the above list include fiscal and economic powers; the Scottish Parliament can't even raise it's own revenue or set it's own tax rates!

So, with very few exceptions, the Scottish Parliament has very little power which county councils did not already have.

Although some, maybe even most, Scots feel proud of their Parliament; to be frank, it's just another trough for politicians to dip their snouts into. Which is why we English wanted nothing to do with regional governments.

[Rob8891]

I did not ask for a reference to your previous posts: I asked for an apology for an offensive post, which you have clearly declined to give. So be it.

[bigbamboo]

Difficult to find the answers in this thread!

All the awkward questions about what will happen should the SNP win have either been ignored by the pro SNP lobby or answered with the stock reply of "That will be negotiated after the 'Yes' vote!"

Not very helpful.

Particularly to the Scottish electorate as the SNP don't seem to have a clue about the actual mechanics of leaving the Union, nor how doing so will really effect the Scottish people.

Or maybe they do; but are scared of the Scottish people finding out?

All the way throughout this thread the SNP supporters have been saying that on separation,

,This is going to happen,that is going to happen,the outcome of negations will be xxxxx,basically they are saying the terms of the separation are those demanded by the SNP.

What about the rest of the country,I as an Englishman look forward to our independence from the over bearing Scots. When separation comes,and the sooner the better, I again, like an increasing number of English,will want a complete divorce from Scotland and everything Scottish.

This will include that the Scott's must have a separate currency=the EURO.

The terms on which they join the EU, will I suspect be Decided by the existing member states,not by the new applicant.

Fortunately or unfortunately depending on which side of the fence or border you stand, you are English

and will have no say whatsoever!!!!

Unless the English decide we've had enough of the celtic nations 'will we stay or we will go attitude' and go for independence ourselves!

[cdnvic]

We've been pretty laid back up until now but if you guys can't quell the fighting we're going to need to either shut this down or eject a few posters.

[phuketjock]

Difficult to find the answers in this thread!

All the awkward questions about what will happen should the SNP win have either been ignored by the pro SNP lobby or answered with the stock reply of "That will be negotiated after the 'Yes' vote!"

Not very helpful.

Particularly to the Scottish electorate as the SNP don't seem to have a clue about the actual mechanics of leaving the Union, nor how doing so will really effect the Scottish people.

Or maybe they do; but are scared of the Scottish people finding out?

All the way throughout this thread the SNP supporters have been saying that on separation,

,This is going to happen,that is going to happen,the outcome of negations will be xxxxx,basically they are saying the terms of the separation are those demanded by the SNP.

What about the rest of the country,I as an Englishman look forward to our independence from the over bearing Scots. When separation comes,and the sooner the better, I again, like an increasing number of English,will want a complete divorce from Scotland and everything Scottish.

This will include that the Scott's must have a separate currency=the EURO.

The terms on which they join the EU, will I suspect be Decided by the existing member states,not by the new applicant.

Fortunately or unfortunately depending on which side of the fence or border you stand, you are English

and will have no say whatsoever!!!!

Unless the English decide we've had enough of the celtic nations 'will we stay or we will go attitude' and go for independence ourselves!

You are of course absolutely at liberty, and completely within your constitutional

rights to lobby your UKMP for a referendum on independance for England!!

Goog Luck with that.

Edited December 22, 2012 by phuketjock

[bigbamboo]

And how many years is it now the Scots have been trying without success........?

[Richard W]

You have to hand it to the Scots. Making England fed up with the Union has been a good technique to prepare the English for dissolution of the Union. Its success can be seen in the change of flag for England supporters, from the union flag to the flag of England. I don't recall any union jacks flying from cars during the last world cup. Apparently suggesting English independence from the UK plays well with Conservative Party selection committees.

[jpinx]

We've been pretty laid back up until now but if you guys can't quell the fighting we're going to need to either shut this down or eject a few posters.

This thread has indeed been civilised and I would hope that the baiters will think carefully about the loss if the thread is closed. Some of us have been enjoying this discussion for a while now and don't want it closed, so please stay civilised.

Sheesh - I go away for one day and come back to find all the toys out of the pram

[jpinx]

The N Ireland issue is most certainly a red herring and is specifically excluded from the process. The suggested reaction is not going to change the vote in Scotland because the voters in Scotland already know what the position is far better then observers from a forum in Thailand. As I have indicated many times, there is no way to explain that situation to someone who was not brought up in Scotland. Suffice to say - " If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem. "

OK, so it is valid for Westminster to interpret a 'yes' vote for Scottish independence as agreeing to the setting up of the UK of Scotland and Northern Ireland. (That may further increase English support for Scottish independence, unless NI chooses England over Scotland.)

OK - once again - just for you This is referendum to be voted on by those people registered to vote in Scotland. The question will some form of words asking "Do you want Scotland to be an independent country?"

There is no mention of N.Ireland and never will be. if the independence vote is carried then it is up to the remaining parts of the UK to decide how they want to position themselves, but there is zero provision for any changes to Scotland's sole independence if that vote is carried.

Please can we leave N.Ireland out of this discussion as it is - as I have said many times - a red herring.

[jpinx]

You have to hand it to the Scots. Making England fed up with the Union has been a good technique to prepare the English for dissolution of the Union. Its success can be seen in the change of flag for England supporters, from the union flag to the flag of England. I don't recall any union jacks flying from cars during the last world cup. Apparently suggesting English independence from the UK plays well with Conservative Party selection committees.

Don't blame the Scots for making the English more Nationalistic - you could equally blame the French, Germans, Irish, Jamaicans, etc. etc. If England decides to go for independence I support them as strongly as I do the Scots. This is nothign to do with "my" nationality, it's about the rights of self-determination.

[jpinx]

Difficult to find the answers in this thread!

All the awkward questions about what will happen should the SNP win have either been ignored by the pro SNP lobby or answered with the stock reply of "That will be negotiated after the 'Yes' vote!"

Not very helpful.

Particularly to the Scottish electorate as the SNP don't seem to have a clue about the actual mechanics of leaving the Union, nor how doing so will really effect the Scottish people.

Or maybe they do; but are scared of the Scottish people finding out?

All the way throughout this thread the SNP supporters have been saying that on separation,

,This is going to happen,that is going to happen,the outcome of negations will be xxxxx,basically they are saying the terms of the separation are those demanded by the SNP.

What about the rest of the country,I as an Englishman look forward to our independence from the over bearing Scots. When separation comes,and the sooner the better, I again, like an increasing number of English,will want a complete divorce from Scotland and everything Scottish.

This will include that the Scott's must have a separate currency=the EURO.

The terms on which they join the EU, will I suspect be Decided by the existing member states,not by the new applicant.

Fortunately or unfortunately depending on which side of the fence or border you stand, you are English

and will have no say whatsoever!!!!

Unless the English decide we've had enough of the celtic nations 'will we stay or we will go attitude' and go for independence ourselves!

As I said to Richard -- go for it and I will support you equally

[jpinx]

Red herrings get smelly after they've been dragged around for a few days, and this particular red herring should be put in the rubbish - where it belongs

I think the disposition of Northern Ireland should England and Scotland go their separate ways is a hot potato, not a red herring.

Should someone who feels that Northern Ireland should remain in union with Scotland vote 'no' in the referendum on Scotland's independence? In other words, does independence for Scotland include independence from Northern Ireland?

This is a referendum by the Scottish electorate on independence for Scotland. There has never been any mention of Northern Ireland. Please stay on topic. What happens between England, Wales and Northern Ireland after Scotland leaves the Union is not up for discussion here as it does not affect Scotland.

That's not quite accurate. I have earlier brought up the subject of NI as TB said the issues there were a purely English creation and I had to remind him that there were and are still some very close ties between the "province" and Scotland (Scots-Irish and sectarianism etc), underscored by TB's comment that his dad was an Orange Order man. If you have ever spent an evening in Belfast post an Old Firm game you will know that the connection is sadly alive and "well" even today.

More relevantly the concept of Scottish independence is stirring the long held Republican aim of a united Ireland. Sadly much of the sectarian violence we are seeing today in Ulster reflects a growing fear amongst the hard line "loyalist" community that such an eventuality is becoming ever closer.

This is where the pro-independence crew do need to think above their navels and appreciate that secession is a loaded idea in many other parts of Europe, hence Barroso's public disapproval of the concept. While little blood has been shed in Scotland that is not the case in the Basque Territory or N. Ireland. It also stirs the pot in other secessionist minded areas of Europe.

So Scotland will need to see its decision in a larger context and similarly appreciate that outside reactions are based on the impact such a secession will have in other arenas. Many Scots probably do not yet appreciate that they are potentially opening up a Pandora's Box of unintended consequences. One can be narrow-minded and just say "&lt;deleted&gt;, not my problem". the more broad minded will see that by lighting such a potential blue touch paper the reaction to Scottish independence may well be far short of enthusiastic in many quarters overseas and these people will see independent Scotland as a threat rather than a positive addition to the mix.

I hope you read my reply to Richard on this point. N.Ireland totally not involved with this process.