Britain, Scotland Sign Deal For Independence Referendum

[nontabury]

Difficult to find the answers in this thread!

All the awkward questions about what will happen should the SNP win have either been ignored by the pro SNP lobby or answered with the stock reply of "That will be negotiated after the 'Yes' vote!"

Not very helpful.

Particularly to the Scottish electorate as the SNP don't seem to have a clue about the actual mechanics of leaving the Union, nor how doing so will really effect the Scottish people.

Or maybe they do; but are scared of the Scottish people finding out?

All the way throughout this thread the SNP supporters have been saying that on separation,

,This is going to happen,that is going to happen,the outcome of negations will be xxxxx,basically they are saying the terms of the separation are those demanded by the SNP.

about the rest of the country,I as an Englishman look forward to our independence from the over bearing Scots. When separation comes,and the sooner the better, I again, like an increasing number of English,will want a complete divorce from Scotland and everything Scottish.

This will include that the Scott's must have a separate currency=the EURO.

The terms on which they join the EU, will I suspect be Decided by the existing member states,not by the new applicant.

Fortunately or unfortunately depending on which side of the fence or border you stand, you are English

and will have no say whatsoever!!!!

You've not thought this through have you.Unfortunately the English will not have any say on the referendum,if they did, the vote would be an overwhelming YES.

However on any future negotiations,they certainly will.

[jpinx]

Scottish voters will be looking for positive change for them, most will care little for issues surrounding currency or passports.

Even the issue of EU membership will matter little to most people.

Hatred of the English is not the issue....but a better future and more control over our own affairs.

Amazing,you say the Scottish voters will care little about their currency,and in doing so,also about their financial future."OH"my Buddha.

Again,an SNP supporter not prepared to face reality.

The EU does not have to negotiate with an application from Scotland,certainly not on the demands of the Scott's.The EU if they want, can simple inform the Scott's on what terms THEY,the EU,are prepared to accept for their entry,This would leave Scotland having to agree to those EU terms,however unfavorable they may be to the Scottish people.So much for control over your own affairs.

The same applies to the remaining parts of the UK,why should the UK agree to anything that a Scottish government demands, unless they thought it would be an acceptable price to be simple rid.

No-one is "demanding" anything. in the last 24 hours this thread has got very polarised and combative. We should be capable of civilised negotiation based on the outcome of the referendum and the requirements of all parties involved, being Scotland, UK and probably EU.

At the risk of censure I'll say wind your prejudices in and come at the issue with constructive comment only. This is not a thread about SNP v UK - it is about how the process of becoming independent could be approached if the vote is yes.

[jpinx]

Take one issue in the 'unravelling' of 300 years of union....... dual nationalty.

Why should the UK offer dual nationality to Scots if they chose to be independent? The law could be changed but of course with the country being run by the EU now it would be probably be challenged in the courts from here to doomsday.

This point has been covered ad nauseum, but once more - just for you After independence any Scot who can satisfy the requirements of the UKBA can apply for and be issued with a UK passport - same as anyone from anywhere in the world at the moment.

[MAJIC]

Difficult to find the answers in this thread!

All the awkward questions about what will happen should the SNP win have either been ignored by the pro SNP lobby or answered with the stock reply of "That will be negotiated after the 'Yes' vote!"

Not very helpful.

Particularly to the Scottish electorate as the SNP don't seem to have a clue about the actual mechanics of leaving the Union, nor how doing so will really effect the Scottish people.

Or maybe they do; but are scared of the Scottish people finding out?

All the way throughout this thread the SNP supporters have been saying that on separation,

,This is going to happen,that is going to happen,the outcome of negations will be xxxxx,basically they are saying the terms of the separation are those demanded by the SNP.

What about the rest of the country,I as an Englishman look forward to our independence from the over bearing Scots. When separation comes,and the sooner the better, I again, like an increasing number of English,will want a complete divorce from Scotland and everything Scottish.

This will include that the Scott's must have a separate currency=the EURO.

The terms on which they join the EU, will I suspect be Decided by the existing member states,not by the new applicant.

Not understanding that every thing they predict and desire is not going to happen,is going to become a major shock for the Scots.

[Richard W]

Don't blame the Scots for making the English more Nationalistic - you could equally blame the French, Germans, Irish, Jamaicans, etc. etc.

The French and Germans don't make us feel English rather than British.

[nontabury]

Scottish voters will be looking for positive change for them, most will care little for issues surrounding currency or passports.

Even the issue of EU membership will matter little to most people.

Hatred of the English is not the issue....but a better future and more control over our own affairs.

Amazing,you say the Scottish voters will care little about their currency,and in doing so,also about their financial future."OH"my Buddha.

Again,an SNP supporter not prepared to face reality.

The EU does not have to negotiate with an application from Scotland,certainly not on the demands of the Scott's.The EU if they want, can simple inform the Scott's on what terms THEY,the EU,are prepared to accept for their entry,This would leave Scotland having to agree to those EU terms,however unfavorable they may be to the Scottish people.So much for control over your own affairs.

The same applies to the remaining parts of the UK,why should the UK agree to anything that a Scottish government demands, unless they thought it would be an acceptable price to be simple rid.

No-one is "demanding" anything. in the last 24 hours this thread has got very polarised and combative. We should be capable of civilised negotiation based on the outcome of the referendum and the requirements of all parties involved, being Scotland, UK and probably EU.

At the risk of censure I'll say wind your prejudices in and come at the issue with constructive comment only. This is not a thread about SNP v UK - it is about how the process of becoming independent could be approached if the vote is yes.

If you want,change the word demand to the word "request" by an independent Scotland,it still means the same.It will be up to the UK and the EU how they will respond to a separate Scottish government,It certainly will not be on the Terms demanded or requested by the Scott's.This may not be the comments that you would like,in order to boost your argument,but I think it is a realistic appraisal of how fiction can turn into fact.

[jpinx]

Scottish voters will be looking for positive change for them, most will care little for issues surrounding currency or passports.

Even the issue of EU membership will matter little to most people.

Hatred of the English is not the issue....but a better future and more control over our own affairs.

Amazing,you say the Scottish voters will care little about their currency,and in doing so,also about their financial future."OH"my Buddha.

Again,an SNP supporter not prepared to face reality.

The EU does not have to negotiate with an application from Scotland,certainly not on the demands of the Scott's.The EU if they want, can simple inform the Scott's on what terms THEY,the EU,are prepared to accept for their entry,This would leave Scotland having to agree to those EU terms,however unfavorable they may be to the Scottish people.So much for control over your own affairs.

The same applies to the remaining parts of the UK,why should the UK agree to anything that a Scottish government demands, unless they thought it would be an acceptable price to be simple rid.

No-one is "demanding" anything. in the last 24 hours this thread has got very polarised and combative. We should be capable of civilised negotiation based on the outcome of the referendum and the requirements of all parties involved, being Scotland, UK and probably EU.

At the risk of censure I'll say wind your prejudices in and come at the issue with constructive comment only. This is not a thread about SNP v UK - it is about how the process of becoming independent could be approached if the vote is yes.

If you want,change the word demand to the word "request" by an independent Scotland,it still means the same.It will be up to the UK and the EU how they will respond to a separate Scottish government,It certainly will not be on the Terms demanded or requested by the Scott's.This may not be the comments that you would like,in order to boost your argument,but I think it is a realistic appraisal of how fiction can turn into fact.

Dictionary "demand" and "request" please - note the differences.

Please do not persist in deliberately mis-spelling Scots - it is provocative.

Once again - there are no "terms" being demanded or requested by anyone - this is a discussion about how the process of independence for scotland can best be understaken, assuming a yes vote.

It appears that contributors are now re-iterating the same points over and over. Entrenchment never makes for interesting discussion.

[bigbamboo]

Take one issue in the 'unravelling' of 300 years of union....... dual nationalty.

Why should the UK offer dual nationality to Scots if they chose to be independent? The law could be changed but of course with the country being run by the EU now it would be probably be challenged in the courts from here to doomsday.

This point has been covered ad nauseum, but once more - just for you After independence any Scot who can satisfy the requirements of the UKBA can apply for and be issued with a UK passport - same as anyone from anywhere in the world at the moment.

The key phrase here, as you say, is 'at the moment'.

[phuketjock]

And how many years is it now the Scots have been trying without success........?

As Robert the Bruce said if at first you don't succeed you will eventually.

[phuketjock]

You have to hand it to the Scots. Making England fed up with the Union has been a good technique to prepare the English for dissolution of the Union. Its success can be seen in the change of flag for England supporters, from the union flag to the flag of England. I don't recall any union jacks flying from cars during the last world cup. Apparently suggesting English independence from the UK plays well with Conservative Party selection committees.

GO for it please please Go for it!!!

[phuketjock]

Difficult to find the answers in this thread!

All the awkward questions about what will happen should the SNP win have either been ignored by the pro SNP lobby or answered with the stock reply of "That will be negotiated after the 'Yes' vote!"

Not very helpful.

Particularly to the Scottish electorate as the SNP don't seem to have a clue about the actual mechanics of leaving the Union, nor how doing so will really effect the Scottish people.

Or maybe they do; but are scared of the Scottish people finding out?

All the way throughout this thread the SNP supporters have been saying that on separation,

,This is going to happen,that is going to happen,the outcome of negations will be xxxxx,basically they are saying the terms of the separation are those demanded by the SNP.

What about the rest of the country,I as an Englishman look forward to our independence from the over bearing Scots. When separation comes,and the sooner the better, I again, like an increasing number of English,will want a complete divorce from Scotland and everything Scottish.

This will include that the Scott's must have a separate currency=the EURO.

The terms on which they join the EU, will I suspect be Decided by the existing member states,not by the new applicant.

Not understanding that every thing they predict and desire is not going to happen,is going to become a major shock for the Scots.

Speculation, conjecture and your opinion nothing more.

[phuketjock]

Scottish voters will be looking for positive change for them, most will care little for issues surrounding currency or passports.

Even the issue of EU membership will matter little to most people.

Hatred of the English is not the issue....but a better future and more control over our own affairs.

Amazing,you say the Scottish voters will care little about their currency,and in doing so,also about their financial future."OH"my Buddha.

Again,an SNP supporter not prepared to face reality.

The EU does not have to negotiate with an application from Scotland,certainly not on the demands of the Scott's.The EU if they want, can simple inform the Scott's on what terms THEY,the EU,are prepared to accept for their entry,This would leave Scotland having to agree to those EU terms,however unfavorable they may be to the Scottish people.So much for control over your own affairs.

The same applies to the remaining parts of the UK,why should the UK agree to anything that a Scottish government demands, unless they thought it would be an acceptable price to be simple rid.

No-one is "demanding" anything. in the last 24 hours this thread has got very polarised and combative. We should be capable of civilised negotiation based on the outcome of the referendum and the requirements of all parties involved, being Scotland, UK and probably EU.

At the risk of censure I'll say wind your prejudices in and come at the issue with constructive comment only. This is not a thread about SNP v UK - it is about how the process of becoming independent could be approached if the vote is yes.

If you want,change the word demand to the word "request" by an independent Scotland,it still means the same.It will be up to the UK and the EU how they will respond to a separate Scottish government,It certainly will not be on the Terms demanded or requested by the Scott's.This may not be the comments that you would like,in order to boost your argument,but I think it is a realistic appraisal of how fiction can turn into fact.

Same again speculation, conjecture and your opinion nothing more.

[MAJIC]

Difficult to find the answers in this thread!

All the awkward questions about what will happen should the SNP win have either been ignored by the pro SNP lobby or answered with the stock reply of "That will be negotiated after the 'Yes' vote!"

Not very helpful.

Particularly to the Scottish electorate as the SNP don't seem to have a clue about the actual mechanics of leaving the Union, nor how doing so will really effect the Scottish people.

Or maybe they do; but are scared of the Scottish people finding out?

All the way throughout this thread the SNP supporters have been saying that on separation,

,This is going to happen,that is going to happen,the outcome of negations will be xxxxx,basically they are saying the terms of the separation are those demanded by the SNP.

What about the rest of the country,I as an Englishman look forward to our independence from the over bearing Scots. When separation comes,and the sooner the better, I again, like an increasing number of English,will want a complete divorce from Scotland and everything Scottish.

This will include that the Scott's must have a separate currency=the EURO.

The terms on which they join the EU, will I suspect be Decided by the existing member states,not by the new applicant.

Not understanding that every thing they predict and desire is not going to happen,is going to become a major shock for the Scots.

Speculation, conjecture and your opinion nothing more.

The same also applies to most of your views,that's the point you didn't understand.

Edited December 22, 2012 by MAJIC

[phuketjock]

Difficult to find the answers in this thread!

All the awkward questions about what will happen should the SNP win have either been ignored by the pro SNP lobby or answered with the stock reply of "That will be negotiated after the 'Yes' vote!"

Not very helpful.

Particularly to the Scottish electorate as the SNP don't seem to have a clue about the actual mechanics of leaving the Union, nor how doing so will really effect the Scottish people.

Or maybe they do; but are scared of the Scottish people finding out?

All the way throughout this thread the SNP supporters have been saying that on separation,

,This is going to happen,that is going to happen,the outcome of negations will be xxxxx,basically they are saying the terms of the separation are those demanded by the SNP.

about the rest of the country,I as an Englishman look forward to our independence from the over bearing Scots. When separation comes,and the sooner the better, I again, like an increasing number of English,will want a complete divorce from Scotland and everything Scottish.

This will include that the Scott's must have a separate currency=the EURO.

The terms on which they join the EU, will I suspect be Decided by the existing member states,not by the new applicant.

Fortunately or unfortunately depending on which side of the fence or border you stand, you are English

and will have no say whatsoever!!!!

You've not thought this through have you.Unfortunately the English will not have any say on the referendum,if they did, the vote would be an overwhelming YES.

However on any future negotiations,they certainly will.

A fanciful wish at best when Scotland gains Independance the English will be the ones seeking negotiation

not the Scots.

[phuketjock]

All the way throughout this thread the SNP supporters have been saying that on separation,

,This is going to happen,that is going to happen,the outcome of negations will be xxxxx,basically they are saying the terms of the separation are those demanded by the SNP.

What about the rest of the country,I as an Englishman look forward to our independence from the over bearing Scots. When separation comes,and the sooner the better, I again, like an increasing number of English,will want a complete divorce from Scotland and everything Scottish.

This will include that the Scott's must have a separate currency=the EURO.

The terms on which they join the EU, will I suspect be Decided by the existing member states,not by the new applicant.

Not understanding that every thing they predict and desire is not going to happen,is going to become a major shock for the Scots.

Speculation, conjecture and your opinion nothing more.

The same also applies to most of your views,that's the point didn't understand.

Well I must be making ground if it only applies to most of my views, so you

must be confirming that some of my views are not speculation or conjecture

which implies they must be factual tut, tut, your slipping there MAJIC.

[MAJIC]

Take one issue in the 'unravelling' of 300 years of union....... dual nationalty.

Why should the UK offer dual nationality to Scots if they chose to be independent? The law could be changed but of course with the country being run by the EU now it would be probably be challenged in the courts from here to doomsday.

This point has been covered ad nauseum, but once more - just for you After independence any Scot who can satisfy the requirements of the UKBA can apply for and be issued with a UK passport - same as anyone from anywhere in the world at the moment.

In order to obtain a British Passport,one has to be a Citizen of the UK,which from your statement "same as anyone in the world at the moment" would not be a true statement!

[phuketjock]

Take one issue in the 'unravelling' of 300 years of union....... dual nationalty.

Why should the UK offer dual nationality to Scots if they chose to be independent? The law could be changed but of course with the country being run by the EU now it would be probably be challenged in the courts from here to doomsday.

This point has been covered ad nauseum, but once more - just for you After independence any Scot who can satisfy the requirements of the UKBA can apply for and be issued with a UK passport - same as anyone from anywhere in the world at the moment.

In order to obtain a British Passport,one has to be a Citizen of the UK,which from your statement "same as anyone in the world at the moment" would not be a true statement!

His statement is absolutely true and factual MAJIC. Anyone in the world can obtain British, or as you put it, UK citizenship

provided they meet the necessary criteria, I have personal experience of this very fact to back my statement up.

[MAJIC]

@ Phuketjock

Fiery Bluster doesn't negate the facts at the negotiating table!

[MAJIC]

Take one issue in the 'unravelling' of 300 years of union....... dual nationalty.

Why should the UK offer dual nationality to Scots if they chose to be independent? The law could be changed but of course with the country being run by the EU now it would be probably be challenged in the courts from here to doomsday.

This point has been covered ad nauseum, but once more - just for you After independence any Scot who can satisfy the requirements of the UKBA can apply for and be issued with a UK passport - same as anyone from anywhere in the world at the moment.

In order to obtain a British Passport,one has to be a Citizen of the UK,which from your statement "same as anyone in the world at the moment" would not be a true statement!

His statement is absolutely true and factual MAJIC. Anyone in the world can obtain British, or as you put it, UK citizenship

provided they meet the necessary criteria, I have personal experience of this very fact to back my statement up.

So he should have said providing they have British Citizenship !..... then they can apply for a British Passport. He didn't mention British Citizenship,he was talking about a British Passport.For the Scots after independance. But should Scotland obtain a Yes Vote,Scots will no longer be members of the UK.

A nice try Phuketjock.

Edited December 22, 2012 by MAJIC

[smokie36]

Scottish voters will be looking for positive change for them, most will care little for issues surrounding currency or passports.

Even the issue of EU membership will matter little to most people.

Hatred of the English is not the issue....but a better future and more control over our own affairs.

Amazing,you say the Scottish voters will care little about their currency,and in doing so,also about their financial future."OH"my Buddha.

Again,an SNP supporter not prepared to face reality.

The EU does not have to negotiate with an application from Scotland,certainly not on the demands of the Scott's.The EU if they want, can simple inform the Scott's on what terms THEY,the EU,are prepared to accept for their entry,This would leave Scotland having to agree to those EU terms,however unfavorable they may be to the Scottish people.So much for control over your own affairs.

The same applies to the remaining parts of the UK,why should the UK agree to anything that a Scottish government demands, unless they thought it would be an acceptable price to be simple rid.

You're political naivety is clear from this post.

First Scotland leaves the EU....who will be next...?

[smokie36]

I did not ask for a reference to your previous posts: I asked for an apology for an offensive post, which you have clearly declined to give. So be it.

One rule Rob...one rule.

[Orac]

Take one issue in the 'unravelling' of 300 years of union....... dual nationalty.

Why should the UK offer dual nationality to Scots if they chose to be independent? The law could be changed but of course with the country being run by the EU now it would be probably be challenged in the courts from here to doomsday.

This point has been covered ad nauseum, but once more - just for you After independence any Scot who can satisfy the requirements of the UKBA can apply for and be issued with a UK passport - same as anyone from anywhere in the world at the moment.

In order to obtain a British Passport,one has to be a Citizen of the UK,which from your statement "same as anyone in the world at the moment" would not be a true statement!

His statement is absolutely true and factual MAJIC. Anyone in the world can obtain British, or as you put it, UK citizenship

provided they meet the necessary criteria, I have personal experience of this very fact to back my statement up.

Given that the criteria for UK citizenship are based around either around being born in the UK or meeting residency requirements then surely this could be a huge issue for scottish expats in Thailand, particularly expats on state/government/military pensions who neither side will want to fund going forward.

[nokbird]

Will the Scottish get all the north sea oil?

This is a very serous question and what fininical Independence is all about for the Scots.

[jpinx]

The rules for obtaining a UK passport are laid out by the UKBA and apply to residents/citizens/nationalities of EVERY country in the world. A newly independent Scotland will have it's own Scottish passport issuing office and will set their own rules, just like any other country in the world. Anyone who meets the criteria can apply for a Scottish passport.

Everyone on the electoral roll for the independence vote will obviously be eligible for a Scottish passport regardless of whether they voted yes or no. For the immediate processing of Scots who are abroad at the time of the vote, the beaurocrats need to sort out a period of transition from UK to Scottish passport, temporary passport issuing, sharing of Embassy services abroad, and many other purely administrative tasks. As I have said previously, they is what beaurocrats are for.

I suggest one looks at the criteria for any European country and substitute the world "Scotland" as appropriate and you will have a better understanding of how passport issuance and therefore nationality, citizenship, etc. all work. Think of USA where a person from Thailand can gain full citizenship and passport after lengthy processing, or Germany where one has to have had German parentage going back for some generations.

Edited December 23, 2012 by jpinx

[jpinx]

Will the Scottish get all the north sea oil?

This is a very serous question and what fininical Independence is all about for the Scots.

This question has been covered extensively in the earlier part of this thread.

[jpinx]

Given that the criteria for UK citizenship are based around either around being born in the UK or meeting residency requirements then surely this could be a huge issue for scottish expats in Thailand, particularly expats on state/government/military pensions who neither side will want to fund going forward.

Scots abroad will get their pensions from the new Scottish exchequer. The mechanism has not been designed yet, but that's what the beaurocrats are there for. There s no intention to deprive anyone of what they are due. Bear in mind that your UK government pension is funded by THIS years tax revenue. There is no "pot of gold" to be transferred from London to Edinburgh.

[bigbamboo]

Will the Scottish get all the north sea oil?

This is a very serous question and what fininical Independence is all about for the Scots.

This question has been covered extensively in the earlier part of this thread.

The majority of the oilfields could be deemed at first glance to be Scottish although as we can see in the Thai/Cambodian case one countries idea of territorial waters rarely concurs with their neighbours! The courts will have to settle it and we all know how long that can take.

[bigbamboo]

The rules for obtaining a UK passport are laid out by the UKBA and apply to residents/citizens/nationalities of EVERY country in the world. A newly independent Scotland will have it's own Scottish passport issuing office and will set their own rules, just like any other country in the world. Anyone who meets the criteria can apply for a Scottish passport.

Everyone one the electoral roll for the independence vote will obviously be eligible for a Scottish passport regardless of whether they voted yes or no. For the immediate processing of Scots who are abroad at the time of the vote, the beaurocrats need to sort out a period of transition from UK to Scottish passport, temporary passport issuing, sharing of Embassy services abroad, and many other purely administrative tasks. As I have said previously, they is what beaurocrats are for.

I suggest one looks at the criteria for any European country and substitute the world "Scotland" as appropriate and you will have a better understanding of how passport issuance and therefore nationality, citizenship, etc. all work. Think of USA where a person from Thailand can gain full citizenship and passport after lengthy processing, or Germany where one has to have had German parentage going back for some generations.

I guess the question is do the Scots want to be truly independent or just hang on to the UK's apron strings?

[jpinx]

Take one issue in the 'unravelling' of 300 years of union....... dual nationalty.

Why should the UK offer dual nationality to Scots if they chose to be independent? The law could be changed but of course with the country being run by the EU now it would be probably be challenged in the courts from here to doomsday.

This point has been covered ad nauseum, but once more - just for you After independence any Scot who can satisfy the requirements of the UKBA can apply for and be issued with a UK passport - same as anyone from anywhere in the world at the moment.

In order to obtain a British Passport,one has to be a Citizen of the UK,which from your statement "same as anyone in the world at the moment" would not be a true statement!

No - I said " ......can satisfy the requirements of the UKBA...... "

[jpinx]

Will the Scottish get all the north sea oil?

This is a very serous question and what fininical Independence is all about for the Scots.

This question has been covered extensively in the earlier part of this thread.

The majority of the oilfields could be deemed at first glance to be Scottish although as we can see in the Thai/Cambodian case one countries idea of territorial waters rarely concurs with their neighbours! The courts will have to settle it and we all know how long that can take.

As was explained much earlier in this thread - international boundaries at sea are established long ago. There is already a boundary between England and Scotland which is used for things like fishing legislation, etc. There will be no need to wait for any court decisions unless the UK chooses to challenge the existing boundaries.