Britain, Scotland Sign Deal For Independence Referendum

[phuketjock]

So why are the SNP afraid of including that in the question?

7X7

The incessant pursuit of your independance question amendment is insulting, your insinuating that the

Scottish people do not have the intelligence to understand that Scottish independance involves separation

from the UK. You or anyone do not have the right to demean or belittle any nation with such an implication.

[7by7]

By the way -- what about the Isle of Man and Channel Islands - how do they fit into the "new" UK - will they declare UDI as well ?

The Isle of Man and the Channel Islands are not part of the UK; they are self governing Crown Dependencies.

I see no reason why that should change should Scotland leave the UK.

[StreetCowboy]

So why are the SNP afraid of including that in the question?

7X7

The incessant pursuit of your independance question amendment is insulting, your insinuating that the

Scottish people do not have the intelligence to understand that Scottish independance involves separation

from the UK. You or anyone do not have the right to demean or belittle any nation with such an implication.

I think a lot of Scots wrongly perceive the rest of the UK as England - the same offence of which we complain so much in foreigners

SC

[phuketjock]

So why are the SNP afraid of including that in the question?

7X7

The incessant pursuit of your independance question amendment is insulting, your insinuating that the

Scottish people do not have the intelligence to understand that Scottish independance involves separation

from the UK. You or anyone do not have the right to demean or belittle any nation with such an implication.

I think a lot of Scots wrongly perceive the rest of the UK as England - the same offence of which we complain so much in foreigners

SC

Then your thinking is grossly off tilt and you are equally as insulting as 7X7 is and you claim to be Scottish you

disgrace your claimed nationality SC.

You definitely deserve a straight

Edited December 25, 2012 by phuketjock

[Scott]

Enough of the personal remarks directed to other posters. Stay on the topic.

[folium]

Enough of the personal remarks directed to other posters. Stay on the topic.

Happy Christmas to all.

Even Linebacker 2 took a break on Christmas Day, so how about a ceasefire? We have plenty of time to further flog this to death!

[nontabury]

Vote Yes To Independence.

That's a great idea,only problem is that the S East subsidise us,not as much as Scotland but still enough for us to think twice about it. Anyhow I think the Shetland isle's and Orkney's will beat us to independence.Then how will the SNP balance the books.

merry Xmas

Edited December 25, 2012 by nontabury

[nontabury]

So why are the SNP afraid of including that in the question?

7X7

The incessant pursuit of your independance question amendment is insulting, your insinuating that the

Scottish people do not have the intelligence to understand that Scottish independance involves separation

from the UK. You or anyone do not have the right to demean or belittle any nation with such an implication.

I think a lot of Scots wrongly perceive the rest of the UK as England - the same offence of which we complain so much in foreigners

SC

When I was stationed in North Africa,the locals would refer to all the British as Londoners,I think they thought that London was the UK. Some took offence others just laughed.

[StreetCowboy]

So why are the SNP afraid of including that in the question?

7X7

The incessant pursuit of your independance question amendment is insulting, your insinuating that the

Scottish people do not have the intelligence to understand that Scottish independance involves separation

from the UK. You or anyone do not have the right to demean or belittle any nation with such an implication.

I think a lot of Scots wrongly perceive the rest of the UK as England - the same offence of which we complain so much in foreigners

SC

Then your thinking is grossly off tilt and you are equally as insulting as 7X7 is and you claim to be Scottish you

disgrace your claimed nationality SC.

You definitely deserve a straight

You're just whistling in the dark, pal.

[nontabury]

So why are the SNP afraid of including that in the question?

7X7

The incessant pursuit of your independance question amendment is insulting, your insinuating that the

Scottish people do not have the intelligence to understand that Scottish independance involves separation

from the UK. You or anyone do not have the right to demean or belittle any nation with such an implication.

I think a lot of Scots wrongly perceive the rest of the UK as England - the same offence of which we complain so much in foreigners

SC

Then your thinking is grossly off tilt and you are equally as insulting as 7X7 is and you claim to be Scottish you

disgrace your claimed nationality SC.

You definitely deserve a straight

Please look up my post no 1619 d/d 23rd dec,time 15.19.This is not the first time you have insulted a fellow Scot,and why,because he can think for himself and therefore does not agree with you.

Btw S.C is a Scot who believes in the Union,I'm a Englishman who does not believe in the Union,make of that what you will.

Edited December 25, 2012 by nontabury

[StreetCowboy]

...

...

I think a lot of Scots wrongly perceive the rest of the UK as England - the same offence of which we complain so much in foreigners

SC

Then your thinking is grossly off tilt and you are equally as insulting as 7X7 is and you claim to be Scottish you

disgrace your claimed nationality SC.

You definitely deserve a straight

Please look up my post no 1619 d/d 23rd dec,time 15.19.This is not the first time you have insulted a fellow Scot,and why,because he can think for himself and therefore does not agree with you.

Btw S.C is a Scot who believes in the Union,I'm a Englishman who does not believe in the Union,make of that what you will.

I always feel that insults reflect poorly on the speaker. Observers can make up their own minds.

To vote to leave one's own country seems foolish; as a founder nation of the United Kingdom then perhaps we can concede that we made a mistake over three hundred years ago, but personally, I am not seeking a divorce for the sake of my wealth or enjoyment today or tomorrow. Who knows what the future will bring?

SC

[phuketjock]

Vote Yes To Independence.

That's a great idea,only problem is that the S East subsidise us,not as much as Scotland but still enough for us to think twice about it. Anyhow I think the Shetland isle's and Orkney's will beat us to independence.Then how will the SNP balance the books.

merry Xmas

This is really getting tedious Nontabury it has been established at least 200 posts ago

that Scotland is in fact one of the areas in the UK that is in fact self sufficient finacially

please do your homework before you have the antis beating the same dead horse all

over again.

[StreetCowboy]

Vote Yes To Independence.

That's a great idea,only problem is that the S East subsidise us,not as much as Scotland but still enough for us to think twice about it. Anyhow I think the Shetland isle's and Orkney's will beat us to independence.Then how will the SNP balance the books.

merry Xmas

This is really getting tedious Nontabury it has been established at least 200 posts ago

that Scotland is in fact one of the areas in the UK that is in fact self sufficient finacially

please do your homework before you have the antis beating the same dead horse all

over again.

His point was that our self-sufficiency was thanks to the good fortune of our proximity to offshore oil deposits, which would largely accrue to our viking neighbours in the Shetlands and Orkneys, were they to free themselves from the yoke of our tyranny, rather than our industrious mercantile talents as the workshop of the Empire.

SC

[theblether]

...

...

I think a lot of Scots wrongly perceive the rest of the UK as England - the same offence of which we complain so much in foreigners

SC

Then your thinking is grossly off tilt and you are equally as insulting as 7X7 is and you claim to be Scottish you

disgrace your claimed nationality SC.

You definitely deserve a straight

Please look up my post no 1619 d/d 23rd dec,time 15.19.This is not the first time you have insulted a fellow Scot,and why,because he can think for himself and therefore does not agree with you.

Btw S.C is a Scot who believes in the Union,I'm a Englishman who does not believe in the Union,make of that what you will.

I always feel that insults reflect poorly on the speaker. Observers can make up their own minds.

To vote to leave one's own country seems foolish; as a founder nation of the United Kingdom then perhaps we can concede that we made a mistake over three hundred years ago, but personally, I am not seeking a divorce for the sake of my wealth or enjoyment today or tomorrow. Who knows what the future will bring?

SC

In as far as it's now relevant.....I think you should go study the period preceding the Act of Union. I believe your understanding of the founding of the nation would change radically, at least to the point that you wouldn't go along with the pretence that it was a voluntary affair on the part of the Scots.

[theblether]

Vote Yes To Independence.

That's a great idea,only problem is that the S East subsidise us,not as much as Scotland but still enough for us to think twice about it. Anyhow I think the Shetland isle's and Orkney's will beat us to independence.Then how will the SNP balance the books.

merry Xmas

This is really getting tedious Nontabury it has been established at least 200 posts ago

that Scotland is in fact one of the areas in the UK that is in fact self sufficient finacially

please do your homework before you have the antis beating the same dead horse all

over again.

His point was that our self-sufficiency was thanks to the good fortune of our proximity to offshore oil deposits, which would largely accrue to our viking neighbours in the Shetlands and Orkneys, were they to free themselves from the yoke of our tyranny, rather than our industrious mercantile talents as the workshop of the Empire.

SC

Only relevant if you believe that Scotland can only be self sufficient through access to the oil deposits, not a contention I agree with.

[phuketjock]

...

...

I think a lot of Scots wrongly perceive the rest of the UK as England - the same offence of which we complain so much in foreigners

SC

Then your thinking is grossly off tilt and you are equally as insulting as 7X7 is and you claim to be Scottish you

disgrace your claimed nationality SC.

You definitely deserve a straight

Please look up my post no 1619 d/d 23rd dec,time 15.19.This is not the first time you have insulted a fellow Scot,and why,because he can think for himself and therefore does not agree with you.

Btw S.C is a Scot who believes in the Union,I'm a Englishman who does not believe in the Union,make of that what you will.

I always feel that insults reflect poorly on the speaker. Observers can make up their own minds.

To vote to leave one's own country seems foolish; as a founder nation of the United Kingdom then perhaps we can concede that we made a mistake over three hundred years ago, but personally, I am not seeking a divorce for the sake of my wealth or enjoyment today or tomorrow. Who knows what the future will bring?

SC

SC your logic is more than a lttle confusing UK is not a country it is a union of four countries

so leaving the UK would not be leaving your country it would be dissolving a union, that in the

opinion of many has gone sadly wrong, and reclaiming your country and taking the running

and government of our nation back from the brink and making our own way in the world

[phuketjock]

Vote Yes To Independence.

That's a great idea,only problem is that the S East subsidise us,not as much as Scotland but still enough for us to think twice about it. Anyhow I think the Shetland isle's and Orkney's will beat us to independence.Then how will the SNP balance the books.

merry Xmas

This is really getting tedious Nontabury it has been established at least 200 posts ago

that Scotland is in fact one of the areas in the UK that is in fact self sufficient finacially

please do your homework before you have the antis beating the same dead horse all

over again.

His point was that our self-sufficiency was thanks to the good fortune of our proximity to offshore oil deposits, which would largely accrue to our viking neighbours in the Shetlands and Orkneys, were they to free themselves from the yoke of our tyranny, rather than our industrious mercantile talents as the workshop of the Empire.

SC

I rather think that's what you think SC if you actually knew anything about the

Shetlands and Orkneys you would know they do not grind the same axe.

[Richard W]

The Isle of Man and the Channel Islands are not part of the UK; they are self governing Crown Dependencies.

More to the point, they were brought to the British Crown as part of the English Crown.

I was surprised that the Scots have not expressed a claim to any of the British overseas territories. Maybe they've realised they can't afford to defend them - or remember the misfortunes of previous far-flung Scottish empires.

UK is not a country it is a union of four countries

Clover leaf.

I rather think that's what you think SC if you actually knew anything about the Shetlands and Orkneys you would know they do not grind the same axe.

I was hearing, 'It's Shetland's oil,' forty years ago from a Shetland girl whose family came actually from the mainland.

[7by7]

jpinx;

Scottish independence: SNP confirms referendum question

The Scottish government has insisted that the parliament at Holyrood will have the final say on the recommendations from the Electoral Commission.

Ms Sturgeon added: "Once they have reported back, it will then be for the Scottish parliament to decide the final wording of the question on the ballot paper."

Seems fairly clear to me that this means the SNP will ask the question they want; not the one recommended by the EC.

phuketjock;

I do not consider the Scottish people stupid, and am offended that you should suggest it.

But a bit of research will show you that the wording of the question can effect the result. It may not influence the way most people vote, but it could influence enough to change the result.

I ask again; why are the SNP afraid of making it clear a Yes vote means Scotland leaving the UK? Will you answer this time?

theblether;

Please explain what you mean by

There seems to be an inability on the part of some to realize that this is a democratic process, conducted with the agreement of the Westminster Government. The result, whether it be Yes or No, will be the Democratic Will of the people resident in Scotland.

I have seen nothing from either side of this debate to indicate that anyone thinks that the referendum is not democratic.

The statement gives the impression that you feel those who support the Union should not air their views. Surely not, though; as that definitely would be undemocratic!

[theblether]

During your last reply 7x7 you demonstrated exactly what I'm talking about...........the Section 30 has been passed by agreement giving the right to Holyrood to run this election.

I'm pretty sure that the SNP government has now agreed to allow the Electoral Commission to run the poll, and it now falls to the Scottish Government to propose a suitably framed question. An excessively loaded question either way will backfire in more than one way, however that doesn't get away from a fundamental truth.

The democratically elected Scottish Government came to an agreement with the democratically elected UK government to run a referendum on Scottish Independence.

The Scottish Government has the right to propose the wording, naturally they will propose wording which will increase their chances of success. Just the same way as the democratically elected UK government gerrymandered the 1979 Devolution Referendum by imposing the scandalous 40% rule.

It's what politicians do.....they seek to improve their electoral chances.

[theblether]

@7x7

I do not consider the Scottish people stupid, and am offended that you should suggest it

It is you that has brought the word foolish to the table more than once, and you that has repeatedly set out to demean our Parliament. You have been pulled several times about your phrasing, so I'll turn to our National Bard for a hand here...........

"O would some power the giftie gie us to see ourselves as others see us."

[phuketjock]

jpinx;

Scottish independence: SNP confirms referendum question

The Scottish government has insisted that the parliament at Holyrood will have the final say on the recommendations from the Electoral Commission.

Ms Sturgeon added: "Once they have reported back, it will then be for the Scottish parliament to decide the final wording of the question on the ballot paper."

Seems fairly clear to me that this means the SNP will ask the question they want; not the one recommended by the EC.

phuketjock;

I do not consider the Scottish people stupid, and am offended that you should suggest it.

But a bit of research will show you that the wording of the question can effect the result. It may not influence the way most people vote, but it could influence enough to change the result.

I ask again; why are the SNP afraid of making it clear a Yes vote means Scotland leaving the UK? Will you answer this time?

theblether;

Please explain what you mean by

There seems to be an inability on the part of some to realize that this is a democratic process, conducted with the agreement of the Westminster Government. The result, whether it be Yes or No, will be the Democratic Will of the people resident in Scotland.

I have seen nothing from either side of this debate to indicate that anyone thinks that the referendum is not democratic.

The statement gives the impression that you feel those who support the Union should not air their views. Surely not, though; as that definitely would be undemocratic!

7 Has the EC recommended that the question be changed NO Has the EC recommended anything at

this point NO. Has the question to be asked been finalised yet NO. It is quite clear and has been agreed

by all concerned that whatever question the Scottish government deem appropriate will be the question

asked. That is how it is whether you agree or not, end of, get over it, Subject closed.

If you do not wish to feel offended by suggestions that you think the

Scottish people are stupid then do not post statements that imply you

do.

[Richard W]

Natural language has a horrible tendency to ambiguity. I don't remember the precise wording in the Common Market referendum, but interpretation of 'Yes' was debated. The 'Yes' camp, most memorably to me in the form of Roy Hattersley, assured us that we would be staying in purely an economic community. The 'No' camp, most memorably to me in the form of Enoch Powell, warned that 'Yes' would lead to a European Union.

The planned question, "Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?", is not clear of nuances. I can see at least the following interpretations to a 'yes' vote:

1) Scotland should be independent of England.

2) Scotland should be allegedly sovereign and not in a union with any other territory (so merely ejecting England from the Union is not a compliant outcome; nor is a union of just Scotland and Northern England).

3) Scotland should be independent of England and of the EU.

[MAJIC]

Quite agree and that is why the prospect of Scottish secession is so unpopular across Europe.

Much as the African nations have accepted that while their externally imposed borders are a major headache, unpicking them would release a literal Pandora's box of issues. Since the 1950's only Eritrea has been recreated( and thus not a real redrawing of boundaries) and this year's secession of South Sudan was a first and very worrying precedent.

Similarly in Europe secession is far more than just a case of Scottish aspirations. With cases such as the Basque territory, the ex Yugoslav republics, or indeed N.Ireland, secession has involved large amounts of bloodshed and represent a spectre that haunts many governments. Therefore Scotland cannot be surprised if Europe does little to facilitate its secession as another potentially dangerous precedent would be established, and for what?

Luckily on last year's Scottish Election results there is little prospect of a yes vote succeeding however much some posters might want it to happen. That's the joy of democracy and most Scottish voters are more than smart enough to see through the noise and realise that this is an exercise with few tangible, long term benefits.

Some interesting points here.

Africa is a poor example of anything to do with democracy. It's difficult to find anything remotely like a democratic government there. Within Europe, the situation has been that the *only* way to get independence was to shed blood. Scotland is paving the way to a bloodless secession to independence which will demonstrate to EU countries that not only is it possible, but it actually will give people a better chance to identify themselves within their own boundaries, rather then boundaries imposed by some prior conqueror.

The reference to Africa has nothing to do with the role or otherwise of democracy, more an unwritten understanding that unravelling boundaries can led to all sorts of unintended consequences and is therefore to be avoided ( hence the disapproval in some quarters of S. Sudan 's secession).

Similarly in Europe the unravelling of nation states could set off a chain reaction with major implications. Belgium imploding in a bloodless secession would not be that disastrous but Spain losing Catalonia and the Basque Country! Germany sees Bavaria and Baden- Wurtemburg go their own way, and Italy sees the northern provinces do likewise would create a whole series of economically fragile rump states to be supported by....?

Furthermore you would then see a second round of secession once the concept sets in, and for Scotland this could be little short of disastrous if the Shetlands and Orkneys decide to go their way, perhaps in association with the Faeroe Islands to become a chilly version of Abu Dhabi and torpedoing Scotland's entire budgetary projections. Getting the western islands to join this offshore confederation would snaffle most of Scotland's oil potential.

Be careful what you wish for.....

Perhaps the Kingdom of Northumbria is reborn taking in much of the Borders up to Edinburgh. This might well appeal to the Merchiston/Morningside/Melrose folk. Might even vote for that myself....!

In the meantime a very Happy Christmas and I will even raise a glass to absent members (which could be taken several ways!).

And a Happy Christmas to you also.

[theblether]

Natural language has a horrible tendency to ambiguity. I don't remember the precise wording in the Common Market referendum, but interpretation of 'Yes' was debated. The 'Yes' camp, most memorably to me in the form of Roy Hattersley, assured us that we would be staying in purely an economic community. The 'No' camp, most memorably to me in the form of Enoch Powell, warned that 'Yes' would lead to a European Union.

The planned question, "Do you agree that Scotland should be an independent country?", is not clear of nuances. I can see at least the following interpretations to a 'yes' vote:

1) Scotland should be independent of England.

2) Scotland should be allegedly sovereign and not in a union with any other territory (so merely ejecting England from the Union is not a compliant outcome; nor is a union of just Scotland and Northern England).

3) Scotland should be independent of England and of the EU.

England is not an entity in this Referendum......the country does not exist out-with being an administrative area of the United Kingdom. It's an irrelevance. We Scots are seeking Independence from the UK, not England.

.

Edited December 25, 2012 by theblether

[Richard W]

1) Scotland should be independent of England.

England is not an entity in this Referendum......the country does not exist out-with being an administrative area of the United Kingdom. It's an irrelevance. We Scots are seeking Independence from the UK, not England.

I'll try to reword, though it shows the problems of using human language:

1a) Counting France as a sovereign state, Scotland and England should not be in the same sovereign state.

1b) Counting France as a sovereign state, the capital of the sovereign state containing Scotland should be in Scotland.

1c) Even when unanimous, the people of England should not be able to dictate to the people of Scotland.

What can you show me that might persuade me that a significant number of Scots are seeking to remove Northern Irish and Welsh interference in Scotland rather than just English interference or control from a city outside Scotland, namely London?

[StreetCowboy]

1) Scotland should be independent of England.

England is not an entity in this Referendum......the country does not exist out-with being an administrative area of the United Kingdom. It's an irrelevance. We Scots are seeking Independence from the UK, not England.

I'll try to reword, though it shows the problems of using human language:

1a) Counting France as a sovereign state, Scotland and England should not be in the same sovereign state.

1b) Counting France as a sovereign state, the capital of the sovereign state containing Scotland should be in Scotland.

1c) Even when unanimous, the people of England should not be able to dictate to the people of Scotland.

What can you show me that might persuade me that a significant number of Scots are seeking to remove Northern Irish and Welsh interference in Scotland rather than just English interference or control from a city outside Scotland, namely London?

The SNP has proposed that Scotland hold a referendum on independence and secession from the UK. It seems clear that they do not want any further influence from the Irish or the Welsh on our domestic politics. You seem to think this is about England,and I am sure many others do as well, but it is not. It is a general intent to deny any mutual governance with our fellow British islanders, other than those that currently fall under the administrative bailliewick of Scotland.

[theblether]

1) Scotland should be independent of England.

England is not an entity in this Referendum......the country does not exist out-with being an administrative area of the United Kingdom. It's an irrelevance. We Scots are seeking Independence from the UK, not England.

I'll try to reword, though it shows the problems of using human language:

1a) Counting France as a sovereign state, Scotland and England should not be in the same sovereign state.

1b) Counting France as a sovereign state, the capital of the sovereign state containing Scotland should be in Scotland.

1c) Even when unanimous, the people of England should not be able to dictate to the people of Scotland.

What can you show me that might persuade me that a significant number of Scots are seeking to remove Northern Irish and Welsh interference in Scotland rather than just English interference or control from a city outside Scotland, namely London?

You've got me beat here.......England is an non-entity, why are you even bringing England up? The Welsh and Northern Irish both have their own assemblies and Nationalist movements, how they progress in the future is a matter for them, and nothing at all to do we with we Scots.

On the odd occasion the Scottish First Minister, whoever that may be at the time, meets up with the respective leaders of Wales and Northern Ireland for a blether, out with that Welsh and NI politics are an irrelevance to the majority of Scots. It would be nice if we could meet the English leader but such a thing doesn't exist.

[Richard W]

You seem to think this is about England,and I am sure many others do as well, but it is not. It is a general intent to deny any mutual governance with our fellow British islanders, other than those that currently fall under the administrative bailliewick of Scotland.

And why do you think this is the goal rather than, say, an attempt to eliminate rule from a government not based in Scotland?

[theblether]

I see there is a strong possibility that Catalan will have their Independence referendum before we Scots. that will do we pro-Independence supporters a favour. The EU will be drawn into the mire on two fronts, and there will be a vicious battle in Spain as the Madrid government are making an unbelievable total and utter mess of managing the situation. In effect they are inflaming Catalonian passions by making stupid demands, which are having the opposite effect on Catalonian public opinion.

This Catalonian referendum is a no lose scenario for the Scottish nationalists.....we will learn a lot from their battle.

" Events, dear boy, events ".