Thai Household Debt

[Mitker]

Both at work and among friends, I witness situations of contracting excessive and ill-assessed debt on a repetitive scale. In comparison, I don't know any acquaintance in such a situation in my home country.

Having been consulted by friends here for advice about some new projects, I demonstrated in a couple of minutes that what was presented as "an investment" had not a single chance of even repaying the interests of the "favorable loan" offered, let alone the capital or the personal contribution of the ones involved.

I put this on a general lack of maths/finance basic knowledge among Thais mixed with a far too lax loan policy. The final result is always similar: personal bankruptcy and loss of one's assets. Banks don't really care since they cover themselves from step 1.

Edited October 28, 2012 by Mitker

[chiang mai]

Checking account is an account with checks; so yes a check book. Personal checking account.

OK, seems like an odd distinction to make when the world is moving away from paper-based transactions but I would assume the people I know with debit and credit cards can write personal cheques if they wish, so that would still be every Thai person I know.

Nonsense. There are almost no people in Thailand with a personal checking account. One needs a checking account to write a personal check. An ATM debit card is not a checking account. The photo below is what they don't have in Thailand.

So those 4 million checks last year were a figmant of the BOT clearing house imagination, ok, got it!

http://www2.bot.or.th/statistics/BOTWEBSTAT.aspx?reportID=447&language=ENG

[chiang mai]

Checking account is an account with checks; so yes a check book. Personal checking account.

OK, seems like an odd distinction to make when the world is moving away from paper-based transactions but I would assume the people I know with debit and credit cards can write personal cheques if they wish, so that would still be every Thai person I know.

If you think the world is moving away from paper based transactions you have not been in Thailand long.

http://www.thaivisa....opy#entry578586

PS. 195 million active checking accounts in USA.

Which has nothing to do with the volume of cheques written since a current account is a pre-requisite for using an electronic debit card.

[chiangmaikelly]

Checking account is an account with checks; so yes a check book. Personal checking account.

OK, seems like an odd distinction to make when the world is moving away from paper-based transactions but I would assume the people I know with debit and credit cards can write personal cheques if they wish, so that would still be every Thai person I know.

If you think the world is moving away from paper based transactions you have not been in Thailand long.

http://www.thaivisa....opy#entry578586

PS. 195 million active checking accounts in USA.

Which has nothing to do with the volume of cheques written since a current account is a pre-requisite for using an electronic debit card.

Does not compute. A current account may or may not be a checking account.

[NeverSure]

Much of America for example is already in third world conditions, and that will probably get worse over time.

Define third world conditions. Clean safe drinking water and sanitary sewer? Safe and inspected meat and other groceries? Paved roads, good medical care... Define it and tell me where it is please.

The poorest people in the US have a car and a big screen TV and a stomach full of safe food. There is no stench in the city because garbage is collected and properly disposed of.

The poorest people in the US live high by world standards. That doesn't mean there's nothing wrong in the US - not by a long shot, but to call any of it third world boggles my mind.

I can show you third world in Thailand among the poor.

[Mitker]

Much of America for example is already in third world conditions, and that will probably get worse over time.

Define third world conditions. Clean safe drinking water and sanitary sewer? Safe and inspected meat and other groceries? Paved roads, good medical care... Define it and tell me where it is please.

The poorest people in the US have a car and a big screen TV and a stomach full of safe food. There is no stench in the city because garbage is collected and properly disposed of.

The poorest people in the US live high by world standards. That doesn't mean there's nothing wrong in the US - not by a long shot, but to call any of it third world boggles my mind.

I can show you third world in Thailand among the poor.

Slightly off topic but just to put the record straight:

Actually, the "Third World" concept comes from the cold war era and points to the countries that were not part or aligned with the 2 superpowers of the time. Switzerland fitted the description. Not really a matter of failing sewage system.

By definition, the U.S. can not be part of the Third World since it was one of the superpowers.

[chiang mai]

Much of America for example is already in third world conditions, and that will probably get worse over time.

Define third world conditions. Clean safe drinking water and sanitary sewer? Safe and inspected meat and other groceries? Paved roads, good medical care... Define it and tell me where it is please.

The poorest people in the US have a car and a big screen TV and a stomach full of safe food. There is no stench in the city because garbage is collected and properly disposed of.

The poorest people in the US live high by world standards. That doesn't mean there's nothing wrong in the US - not by a long shot, but to call any of it third world boggles my mind.

I can show you third world in Thailand among the poor.

Slightly off topic but just to put the record straight:

Actually, the "Third World" concept comes from the cold war era and points to the countries that were not part or aligned with the 2 superpowers of the time. Switzerland fitted the description. Not really a matter of failing sewage system.

By definition, the U.S. can not be part of the Third World since it was one of the superpowers.

Yes we know about that because it's been debated here many times, the term is however still used universally but now has an economic reference rather than a political one. The term "third world" is used unsparingly and interchangably in conjunction with "emerging country" by just about all. http://en.wikipedia....eloping_country

Now, back on topic.

Edited October 28, 2012 by chiang mai

[NeverSure]

Much of America for example is already in third world conditions, and that will probably get worse over time.

Define third world conditions. Clean safe drinking water and sanitary sewer? Safe and inspected meat and other groceries? Paved roads, good medical care... Define it and tell me where it is please.

The poorest people in the US have a car and a big screen TV and a stomach full of safe food. There is no stench in the city because garbage is collected and properly disposed of.

The poorest people in the US live high by world standards. That doesn't mean there's nothing wrong in the US - not by a long shot, but to call any of it third world boggles my mind.

I can show you third world in Thailand among the poor.

Slightly off topic but just to put the record straight:

Actually, the "Third World" concept comes from the cold war era and points to the countries that were not part or aligned with the 2 superpowers of the time. Switzerland fitted the description. Not really a matter of failing sewage system.

By definition, the U.S. can not be part of the Third World since it was one of the superpowers.

Yes we know about that because it's been debated here many times, the term is however still used universally but now has an economic reference rather than a political one. The term "third world" is used unsparingly and interchangably in conjunction with "emerging country" by just about all. http://en.wikipedia....eloping_country

Now, back on topic.

Well I am (as you probably are and anyone else can be) a member of Wikipedia. I could log on there right now and change all of it!!! Yes, I use it occasionally as a reference, but it's very often skewed by individual beliefs.

By anyone's definition, Thailand is a third world country, and that's the discussion really.

My last experience in Thailand is two years old, so maybe there's been rapid change. At that time, most of the locals I met in Chaing Mai didn't make any 40k baht a month and not even close. Many of them were up to their eyeballs paying for a cell phone and a scooter. Many of the scooters were financed at the dealer for an unbelievable total cost.

Someone else will have to tell me what I'll find that's different when I move next year.

[Heng]

When I wanted a bankers draft for my UK passport in CM, most banks weren't interested at all.

I had to get the cash out of my bank then go along to a 'foreigner friendly' bank to purchase one.

When I see Thais buying a car (900k) ..... down to the bank get out cash.

When I bought a car/scooter/plasmaTV (150k/54k/26k) ... down to the bank and get cash.

I know a policeman who just bought a house in CM for his mia noi 1.2M, paid 200k a month for 6 months ..... cash, said his wife would notice larger amounts missing from his bank account in one go.

Tried to buy my new scooter from the main Honda dealer in CM, using card or bank draft, they said no, please go and get cash.

Who are these people you know who use a cheque/draft ...... I don't know them or any shop that wants to deal with them. What is your idea of a 'large purchase'?

We've sold about 800 or so houses and condos in the past few years (one of our family branches is real estate development), it's mostly cashier's checks for payments. It'd be impractical otherwise. That said, sure, there are cash deals, and certainly those would be abnormal in the west, but they aren't the majority or even half. I wasn't present for all of those deals but those 'cash purchases' are usually noted as anecdotes at family dinners, ....I think maybe 20-25 times where I have seen or heard of the backpack, sports bag, and a few times plastic bags full of cash.

That said, I think what the 'cash payment' guy is trying to say that yes, a lot of transactions are off the books here. And businesses will keep things off the books when given an opportunity (I hardly think that's a Thai, or even Asian only trait... who wouldn't?). A common and visible example would be the ThaiBev empire vs the Boonrawd empire. It's fairly common knowledge that the latter is far wealthier than the former... but because ThaiBev is largely publicly audited, on paper ThaiBev appears more significant. The same thing for Bangkok Bank vs. Kasikorn Bank.... on paper Sophonpanich family is only slightly wealthier than the Lamsam family.... in reality their holdings are likely three times more significant than the latter. Now, that can only be filed under 'opinion' because you won't find any 'links' or 'proof' of that, because of that 'off the books' behavior, but I offer these as someone unbiased (it's not like I prefer or have a stake in the public image of any of those entities). And that behavior is exhibited from the top to most of the lower portions of the population. What people mostly notice (IMO), is the minority that wants to display their assets. Again IMO, but I'd say that most foreigners typically only live and associate with folks in that minority.

Edited October 28, 2012 by Heng

[BigJohnnyBKK]

I'm more confused than ever.

It is certainly the case that the vast majority of debit cards are tied to accounts which are NOT checking accounts, for which it would be impossible to get a checkbook even if you wanted to.

My understanding was that the term "current account" as used in Thailand specifically means a checking account.

Am I wrong?

I still haven't got a definitive answer to this question: Are individuals even allowed to have checking accounts? My understanding is that this is only allowed for business use (even though we all know lots of personal expenses fraudulently flow through business accounts, set that aside for the moment.)

And even if Thais individuals can, I'm pretty darn sure that a foreigner needs to set up a business in order to write checks, a mere work permit is not sufficient.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

Bangkok Bank vs. Kasikorn Bank.... on paper Sophonpanich family is only slightly wealthier than the Lamsam family.... in reality their holdings are likely three times more significant than the latter.

Which is completely understandable given their roots in the british/american "security" agencies funding of the opium trade and post-WW2 messing around with governments in this part of the world, and not just Thailand either. And good luck finding anything credible on the intertubes about this stuff, amazing lack of documented "real" history in this part of the world!

[chiangmaikelly]

I'm more confused than ever.

It is certainly the case that the vast majority of debit cards are tied to accounts which are NOT checking accounts, for which it would be impossible to get a checkbook even if you wanted to.

My understanding was that the term "current account" as used in Thailand specifically means a checking account.

Am I wrong?

I still haven't got a definitive answer to this question: Are individuals even allowed to have checking accounts? My understanding is that this is only allowed for business use (even though we all know lots of personal expenses fraudulently flow through business accounts, set that aside for the moment.)

And even if Thais individuals can, I'm pretty darn sure that a foreigner needs to set up a business in order to write checks, a mere work permit is not sufficient.

Thai people can have a personal checking account, no problem. Most don't.

[chiang mai]

I'm more confused than ever.

It is certainly the case that the vast majority of debit cards are tied to accounts which are NOT checking accounts, for which it would be impossible to get a checkbook even if you wanted to.

My understanding was that the term "current account" as used in Thailand specifically means a checking account.

Am I wrong?

I still haven't got a definitive answer to this question: Are individuals even allowed to have checking accounts? My understanding is that this is only allowed for business use (even though we all know lots of personal expenses fraudulently flow through business accounts, set that aside for the moment.)

And even if Thais individuals can, I'm pretty darn sure that a foreigner needs to set up a business in order to write checks, a mere work permit is not sufficient.

Current Account, DDA Account (Demand Deposit Account), Checking Account, all exactly the same thing, typically each will involve cheque and EFT withdrawls eg debit/ATM card and cheque.

Edited October 28, 2012 by chiang mai

[geronimo]

It runs hand in hand with the Buddhist concept of "Living for the moment" and if you put all those moments together, then you have a past and a future!

[BigJohnnyBKK]

That doesn't mean there's nothing wrong in the US - not by a long shot, but to call any of it third world boggles my mind.

OK, poor use of an obsolete phrase, and it's true that the entire population benefits from the infrastructure advantages you cite, but that doesn't make my statement less true. Have you actually worked among the people living in the slums of the Bronx and Detroit or dozens of other urban areas in the US, or visited remote poverty-stricken rural areas like Appalachia? Do you think things have improved in these places in the last few decades, particularly the past few years?

There are many very very poor people in Thailand that have no need to pay rent because they own their home and some farmland. Free and clear I might add - this is a remote dream for 99% of those in the bottom say 50% in the US, maybe even higher these days. And only possible for the bottom 90% if they scale the other aspects of their standard living way way back, to get free and clear even within the next ten years.

Children of single parents are supported by the extended family much more so here than there, what's my life going to be like bringing my kids home to NYC without another caregiver to help?

Thais have access to at least some semblance of free or inexpensive healthcare, much more so than say the bottom 20% of the US population.

Do you know what percentage of American children live in real poverty and suffer from malnutrition? It's very high. Sure most of them qualify for food stamps etc, but the conditions in which they live in order to qualify? Look at them yourself in person directly and tell me you don't think that's an "undeveloped country level" of living.

True, free education is better stateside but definitely sub-standard compared to anywhere in the rest of the developed world, and a total disgrace compared to places like Singapore and Finland.

I'm not here advocating that anything be done by government to solve these problems, many believe it's better for the general good to let 'em starve and die in the street that's not the point.

But be informed, educate yourself about the true reality of the situation and don't buy into what you've observed / been presented by the media so far without investigating directly.

[chiangmaikelly]

I'm more confused than ever.

It is certainly the case that the vast majority of debit cards are tied to accounts which are NOT checking accounts, for which it would be impossible to get a checkbook even if you wanted to.

My understanding was that the term "current account" as used in Thailand specifically means a checking account.

Am I wrong?

I still haven't got a definitive answer to this question: Are individuals even allowed to have checking accounts? My understanding is that this is only allowed for business use (even though we all know lots of personal expenses fraudulently flow through business accounts, set that aside for the moment.)

And even if Thais individuals can, I'm pretty darn sure that a foreigner needs to set up a business in order to write checks, a mere work permit is not sufficient.

Current Account, DDA Account (Demand Deposit Account), Checking Account, all exactly the same thing, typically each will involve cheque and EFT withdrawls eg debit/ATM card and cheque.

Not everywhere is the UK. A transactional account is known as a checking (or chequing account) in North America, and as a current account or cheque account in the United Kingdom.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

By anyone's definition, Thailand is a third world country, and that's the discussion really.

Certainly not anyone's, and the word itself isn't useful anymore as its considered an insult. And I don't consider the discussion that fruitful, like defining "middle class" ends up being an argument about the basis for arbitrary terms.

Rapidly "developing" is more accurate.

Thailand's GDP is pretty respectable, and per-capita beats out China.

It's light-years ahead of the bottom half of the 200+ countries, depending how you count.

[Heng]

I'm more confused than ever.

It is certainly the case that the vast majority of debit cards are tied to accounts which are NOT checking accounts, for which it would be impossible to get a checkbook even if you wanted to.

My understanding was that the term "current account" as used in Thailand specifically means a checking account.

Am I wrong?

I still haven't got a definitive answer to this question: Are individuals even allowed to have checking accounts? My understanding is that this is only allowed for business use (even though we all know lots of personal expenses fraudulently flow through business accounts, set that aside for the moment.)

And even if Thais individuals can, I'm pretty darn sure that a foreigner needs to set up a business in order to write checks, a mere work permit is not sufficient.

A mere work permit for foreigners, current passport (with current visa of course) is sufficient, although I can't vouch for all banks. Several foreign associates of ours do have current accounts (which yes, are checking accounts) at Bangkok Bank. For Thais, all you need is your ID card. I have a current account in my name, all I used was my Thai ID card. I also have current accounts for a couple of my businesses, and yes, those required business registration docs as it's the business name on those accounts. As for tracking of these payments, whether it's checks or cash.... for most checks no one writes what it is for anyway although for businesses, sure, if you dig for it, a check number can be linked to some invoice number and amount, so for practical purposes the banks and BOT can only "track" from the broadest of perspectives (from the cash flow level point of view... they'll know cash is being transfered from A to B, but as to what that means in debt or wealth terms they might have less detail and information).

Edited October 28, 2012 by Heng

[NeverSure]

That doesn't mean there's nothing wrong in the US - not by a long shot, but to call any of it third world boggles my mind.

OK, poor use of an obsolete phrase, and it's true that the entire population benefits from the infrastructure advantages you cite, but that doesn't make my statement less true. Have you actually worked among the people living in the slums of the Bronx and Detroit or dozens of other urban areas in the US, or visited remote poverty-stricken rural areas like Appalachia? Do you think things have improved in these places in the last few decades, particularly the past few years?

There are many very very poor people in Thailand that have no need to pay rent because they own their home and some farmland. Free and clear I might add - this is a remote dream for 99% of those in the bottom say 50% in the US, maybe even higher these days. And only possible for the bottom 90% if they scale the other aspects of their standard living way way back, to get free and clear even within the next ten years.

Children of single parents are supported by the extended family much more so here than there, what's my life going to be like bringing my kids home to NYC without another caregiver to help?

Thais have access to at least some semblance of free or inexpensive healthcare, much more so than say the bottom 20% of the US population.

Do you know what percentage of American children live in real poverty and suffer from malnutrition? It's very high. Sure most of them qualify for food stamps etc, but the conditions in which they live in order to qualify? Look at them yourself in person directly and tell me you don't think that's an "undeveloped country level" of living.

True, free education is better stateside but definitely sub-standard compared to anywhere in the rest of the developed world, and a total disgrace compared to places like Singapore and Finland.

I'm not here advocating that anything be done by government to solve these problems, many believe it's better for the general good to let 'em starve and die in the street that's not the point.

But be informed, educate yourself about the true reality of the situation and don't buy into what you've observed / been presented by the media so far without investigating directly.

People make choices. Sometimes bad. The Bronx is right next to the wealthiest city in the US, but personal choices trash the place and result in what's there. It isn't a 3rd world country. It is a ghetto which the residents choose to keep that way because of what they are and what they do and don't do, not because of what the country offers.

Appalachia is also a choice. People like it there. Did you know that it is the latest fad for rich people to buy into and build their fancy places? It is booming as is all of S. Missouri. See Branson and surrounds. Find a little bit of heaven and someone will change it.

You can choose to be on your lips individually anywhere. London, Paris, NY, San Fran - but the opportunities are there for those who care to follow the rules and work for it.

I see lots of opportunities in Thailand that people don't use. I think Thailand could be industrialized already like S. Korea if it had a different culture. Japan and Hong Kong and to some extend Taiwan were decades ahead. None is perfect, just like the West, but they are ahead in Asia.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

People make choices. Sometimes bad.

Completely agree, and wasn't talking about the US as a whole of course, just the conditions under which many of our citizens live, regardless of the cause.

I think Thailand could be industrialized already like S. Korea if it had a different culture.

"Just" providing a decent public education system and getting rid of corruption would probably make all the difference over just a few decades.

The upcountry poor would probably become a huge engine for macro growth, just as new immigrants are in the States.

[chiang mai]

People make choices. Sometimes bad.

Completely agree, and wasn't talking about the US as a whole of course, just the conditions under which many of our citizens live, regardless of the cause.

I think Thailand could be industrialized already like S. Korea if it had a different culture.

"Just" providing a decent public education system and getting rid of corruption would probably make all the difference over just a few decades.

The upcountry poor would probably become a huge engine for macro growth, just as new immigrants are in the States.

Just think what the place could look like if the money lost to corruption alone was invested in the economy or the rural poor.

[Heng]

If one wanted this place to be more like Japan, Korea, or China, that's pretty simple (easier than getting rid of corruption). Just make investment and migration from those countries easier. It's where this country is headed anyway.

[fletchsmile]

Checking account is an account with checks; so yes a check book. Personal checking account.

OK, seems like an odd distinction to make when the world is moving away from paper-based transactions but I would assume the people I know with debit and credit cards can write personal cheques if they wish, so that would still be every Thai person I know.

Nonsense. There are almost no people in Thailand with a personal checking account. One needs a checking account to write a personal check. An ATM debit card is not a checking account. The photo below is what they don't have in Thailand.

Why do you keep quoting numbers which you have no idea of and cannot justify?

Fact: In Thailand people do not normally refer to "checking accounts". They normally refer to current accounts. With these you can request a cheque book

Fact: Here are 3 current accounts that have cheque book facilities available:

http://www.uob.co.th/personal/deposit-current-account.htm

http://www.standardchartered.co.th/personal-banking/deposits/current-account/en/

http://www.bangkokbank.com/BangkokBank/PersonalBanking/DailyBanking/Accounts/CurrentAccounts/Pages/Default.aspx

Please note, these are all listed under personal banking, not under SME banking or business banking these are personal individual accounts

All Thai banks offer similar services: BAY, SCB, Kasikorn, TMB etc. Just go to their website and look under personal banking, you will find similar accounts.

Fact: There are about 200,000 cheques cleared every day. One poster bothered to check this and give you a link on a BOT website.That's 4mio cheques a month, 50mio+ a year. Yes I said I can't give you a split of whether these are business or personal. For you to assume they are all business is rubbish

Fact: I have current accounts with cheque books with 3 separate banks

Fact: As mentioned, many banks offer sweep facilities for current accounts linked to savings accounts. Your current account balance can be zero, and they do an auto transfer from your savings account

Fact: The last bank I worked for counted the number of current accounts for personal use in the hundreds of thousands. A large proportion of these had cheque books issued. This was not even a top 5 Thai bank. Bangkok Bangkok, SCB, etc will have more.

[simple1]

Checking account is an account with checks; so yes a check book. Personal checking account.

OK, seems like an odd distinction to make when the world is moving away from paper-based transactions but I would assume the people I know with debit and credit cards can write personal cheques if they wish, so that would still be every Thai person I know.

Nonsense. There are almost no people in Thailand with a personal checking account. One needs a checking account to write a personal check. An ATM debit card is not a checking account. The photo below is what they don't have in Thailand.

Why do you keep quoting numbers which you have no idea of and cannot justify?

Fact: In Thailand people do not normally refer to "checking accounts". They normally refer to current accounts. With these you can request a cheque book

Fact: Here are 3 current accounts that have cheque book facilities available:

http://www.uob.co.th...ent-account.htm

http://www.standardc...ent-account/en/

http://www.bangkokba...es/Default.aspx

Please note, these are all listed under personal banking, not under SME banking or business banking these are personal individual accounts

All Thai banks offer similar services: BAY, SCB, Kasikorn, TMB etc. Just go to their website and look under personal banking, you will find similar accounts.

Fact: There are about 200,000 cheques cleared every day. One poster bothered to check this and give you a link on a BOT website.That's 4mio cheques a month, 50mio+ a year. Yes I said I can't give you a split of whether these are business or personal. For you to assume they are all business is rubbish

Fact: I have current accounts with cheque books with 3 separate banks

Fact: As mentioned, many banks offer sweep facilities for current accounts linked to savings accounts. Your current account balance can be zero, and they do an auto transfer from your savings account

Fact: The last bank I worked for counted the number of current accounts for personal use in the hundreds of thousands. A large proportion of these had cheque books issued. This was not even a top 5 Thai bank. Bangkok Bangkok, SCB, etc will have more.

Thailand is now a step ahead of some Western countries for cheque processing as recently gone live with Straight Through Processing - see

http://www.clear2pay.com/pages/en/news/PR/PR_120724_EN.htm

[thaibeachlovers]

I'm going by what I see.

My wife makes 7,000 a month in a good low level job.

The vast majority of Thais are in low level jobs, many earning as little as 3,000 a month.

Allowing for Thais in banking type jobs that apparently earn between 10,000 and 15,000 I am ESTIMATING that the average wage is AROUND 10,000 a month.

By all means dispute that, but there are statistics and there are dam_n statistics, and from many years in Thailand I would dispute that most Thais earn enough to buy a multi million baht house or a million baht car, yet we see them everywhere.

This is a bit of a silly post. Whilst the mean average monthly salary may be around 10k, there is a healthy percentage of Thai people earning far more than that. These are the people that are buying houses and cars, not 7/11 workers on 6 or 7k a month.

I think your figures are a little unrealistic too. Burmese maids usually manage to make a fair bit more than 3k a month so I doubt there are all that many Thai people on such a low salary. You need to bear in mind that the majority of people in most countries earn low salaries. The distribution of wealth in Thailand, as measured by the Gini coefficient, is roughly the same as it is in the USA.

Some examples please. In the town where I live, which is a factory town employing many thousands of workers, I see enormous numbers of low level factory employees on motorbikes, thousands of shop workers, miscellaneous workers like stall holders, m'bike taxi drivers, and bar/ restaurant staff, but very few people driving an "elite" car. The number of very expensive houses is miniscule. So what are the <healthy percentage of Thai people earning far more than that> doing?

[thaibeachlovers]

That doesn't mean there's nothing wrong in the US - not by a long shot, but to call any of it third world boggles my mind.

OK, poor use of an obsolete phrase, and it's true that the entire population benefits from the infrastructure advantages you cite, but that doesn't make my statement less true. Have you actually worked among the people living in the slums of the Bronx and Detroit or dozens of other urban areas in the US, or visited remote poverty-stricken rural areas like Appalachia? Do you think things have improved in these places in the last few decades, particularly the past few years?

There are many very very poor people in Thailand that have no need to pay rent because they own their home and some farmland. Free and clear I might add - this is a remote dream for 99% of those in the bottom say 50% in the US, maybe even higher these days. And only possible for the bottom 90% if they scale the other aspects of their standard living way way back, to get free and clear even within the next ten years.

Children of single parents are supported by the extended family much more so here than there, what's my life going to be like bringing my kids home to NYC without another caregiver to help?

Thais have access to at least some semblance of free or inexpensive healthcare, much more so than say the bottom 20% of the US population.

Do you know what percentage of American children live in real poverty and suffer from malnutrition? It's very high. Sure most of them qualify for food stamps etc, but the conditions in which they live in order to qualify? Look at them yourself in person directly and tell me you don't think that's an "undeveloped country level" of living.

True, free education is better stateside but definitely sub-standard compared to anywhere in the rest of the developed world, and a total disgrace compared to places like Singapore and Finland.

I'm not here advocating that anything be done by government to solve these problems, many believe it's better for the general good to let 'em starve and die in the street that's not the point.

But be informed, educate yourself about the true reality of the situation and don't buy into what you've observed / been presented by the media so far without investigating directly.

Currently 1 in 6 of the US poulation is classified as in poverty, and 47 million are on foodstamps. In a country where the Kardashians and Paris Hilton are "respected". Truly mindboggling.

[thaibeachlovers]

If one wanted this place to be more like Japan, Korea, or China, that's pretty simple (easier than getting rid of corruption). Just make investment and migration from those countries easier. It's where this country is headed anyway.

If this country WERE like Japan, Korea, or China, ThaiVisa forum likely would not exist as few of us would be here!

Be careful what you wish for.

[Heng]

If one wanted this place to be more like Japan, Korea, or China, that's pretty simple (easier than getting rid of corruption). Just make investment and migration from those countries easier. It's where this country is headed anyway.

If this country WERE like Japan, Korea, or China, ThaiVisa forum likely would not exist as few of us would be here!

Be careful what you wish for.

Not wishing for anything, but I do think it's inevitable.

[thaibeachlovers]

If one wanted this place to be more like Japan, Korea, or China, that's pretty simple (easier than getting rid of corruption). Just make investment and migration from those countries easier. It's where this country is headed anyway.

If this country WERE like Japan, Korea, or China, ThaiVisa forum likely would not exist as few of us would be here!

Be careful what you wish for.

Not wishing for anything, but I do think it's inevitable.

Sorry, but I disagree. The character of Thais is completely different to the Japanese, Koreans, or Chinese.

Unfortunately, Thailand may end up with the worst of all worlds because of it.

[chiangmaikelly]

Checking account is an account with checks; so yes a check book. Personal checking account.

OK, seems like an odd distinction to make when the world is moving away from paper-based transactions but I would assume the people I know with debit and credit cards can write personal cheques if they wish, so that would still be every Thai person I know.

Nonsense. There are almost no people in Thailand with a personal checking account. One needs a checking account to write a personal check. An ATM debit card is not a checking account. The photo below is what they don't have in Thailand.

Why do you keep quoting numbers which you have no idea of and cannot justify?

Fact: In Thailand people do not normally refer to "checking accounts". They normally refer to current accounts. With these you can request a cheque book

Fact: Here are 3 current accounts that have cheque book facilities available:

http://www.uob.co.th...ent-account.htm

http://www.standardc...ent-account/en/

http://www.bangkokba...es/Default.aspx

Please note, these are all listed under personal banking, not under SME banking or business banking these are personal individual accounts

All Thai banks offer similar services: BAY, SCB, Kasikorn, TMB etc. Just go to their website and look under personal banking, you will find similar accounts.

Fact: There are about 200,000 cheques cleared every day. One poster bothered to check this and give you a link on a BOT website.That's 4mio cheques a month, 50mio+ a year. Yes I said I can't give you a split of whether these are business or personal. For you to assume they are all business is rubbish

Fact: I have current accounts with cheque books with 3 separate banks

Fact: As mentioned, many banks offer sweep facilities for current accounts linked to savings accounts. Your current account balance can be zero, and they do an auto transfer from your savings account

Fact: The last bank I worked for counted the number of current accounts for personal use in the hundreds of thousands. A large proportion of these had cheque books issued. This was not even a top 5 Thai bank. Bangkok Bangkok, SCB, etc will have more.

Nice stuff. How many personal checks are written every year in Thailand? How many people have a personal checking account in Thailand? 195 million have personal checking accounts in the USA. How many in Thailand?

Did you mean to say you had three bank accounts at Thai banks with personal checking accounts?

I'm not being a hard a**. I'm sorry I don't think very many personal checks are written in Thailand. Nothing you have written confirms or denies this hypothesis.

Thailand is a cash economy. All bills are payable in cash. I could arrive in Thailand with a stash of gold cash it in on any street corner in Thailand and live without a paper trail for as long as my cash held out.