Western Motorbike Driver

[smedly]

Does anyone want to learn something which could save his life someday, or do we just want to stick to old misconceptions?

If just one person learns something, and 1,000 flame me, I'll be happy to attend the funerals of the 1,000.

are you for real, your first missconception is calling a HD a motorbike, your biggest mistake is breathing, I've never in all my years of motoring heard such a complete pile of bullshite - go get help

you're obviously not a true biker as we never talk about funerals - you're close to my ignore button

In the US we call a Harley or any motorcycle a scooter or a scoot, as in "Nice scoot there." "Thanks." One of the first things I learned in mixing with UK, Aus., Canada, and Brits is that not all use the same words to describe something. Calling your Harley a scoot or a motorbike is friendly and tongue in cheek.

Put me on ignore. But if you put those videos on ignore, it's your funeral. If you can scoff at Jerry Paladino from Ride Like a Pro when he says in the video above to use your front tire for 70% of your braking, then you're asking to die.

If you can't see the scoot stop short where the rear tire lifts as a demonstration of how much braking you can get from a front wheel, it's your funeral.

If you can't see how countersteering causes a bike to literally jump in the opposite direction, then you'll never have the opportunity to make a rapid and positive S turn around a car which pulls out in front of you. You'll just T-Bone it while skidding your rear brake to no effect.

Post some videos or authoritative articles which prove I'm wrong.

It's your funeral.

I never disputed counter steering - something I learned to do when I got my first bicycle as a kid - it comes natural for most people, I did however disagree with your tyrewear theory which I still say is complete nonesense

[NeverSure]

I never disputed counter steering - something I learned to do when I got my first bicycle as a kid - it comes natural for most people, I did however disagree with your tyrewear theory which I still say is complete nonesense

Well, you have to think it through for yourself. The rear tire has no reason to wear as the front tire does unless there is improper braking. If one has a habit of doing most braking with the rear tire, it will always skid imperceptibly, and wear prematurely without the rider realizing it. It simply doesn't have enough weight on it to have good traction.

As shown in the videos above, the front tire should do most of the braking because there is, and you can see, weight transfer onto it when it brakes. In one video, the rider demonstrates raising the rear wheel off the ground so it certainly isn't wearing then. You can stop in less than 1/2 the distance with the front instead of the rear.

Turning isn't the worst on a tire because when turning the bike is leaned over onto the side of the tire. Yet tires wear out first in the center - both front and rear. They wear out mostly from braking and novices unknowingly abuse the rear tire while failing to be able to stop short.

[pistachios]

Braking with the front lever applies torque to the front wheel, which result in a force at the wheel/ground point of contact. This force is transmitted to the ground thanks to static friction.

Accelerating is the same (but in the other direction), you apply torque to the back wheel, which also result in a force transmitted to the ground thanks to static friction.

Static friction wears the tyre (but much slower than kinetic friction when skidding or burning).

You cannot say that breaking with the front wheel wears the tyre while accelerating doesn't. It is the same physical phenomenum.

Edited October 29, 2012 by pistachios

[NeverSure]

Braking with the front lever applies torque to the front wheel, which result in a force at the wheel/ground point of contact. This force is transmitted to the ground thanks to static friction.

Accelerating is the same (but in the other direction), you apply torque to the back wheel, which also result in a force transmitted to the ground thanks to static friction.

Static friction wears the tyre (but much slower than kinetic friction when skidding or burning).

You cannot say that breaking with the front wheel wears the tyre while accelerating doesn't. It is the same physical phenomenum.

All very true and good. The only difference is that braking must at times be aggressive, while accelerating never as much. The front tire therefore will have more forces applied than will the back, and will wear faster. Unless one accelerates very aggressively on a regular basis, and unless the bike has the power to scrub the rear tire, the higher and more often applied braking forces will result in the front tire wearing out first.

The front tire and the front brake pads are the high wear items on the bike. I say "high wear," but I get about 20,000 miles on a rear tire on a Harley, and less than 1/2 that on a front tire, so it isn't a major issue.

What becomes a big expense is when someone doesn't know not to lay off braking with the rear tire so much, and prematurely ruins it at 4 or 5 thousand miles. Usually that person accepts that, believing it's normal.

Rarely is accelerating a panic, but it's common to need to stop abruptly, using up the front tire first.

[smedly]

If it's just HD you're talking about then there could be 2x reasons a front none driven tyre will wear faster - the rear tyre on a Harley (most that I've seen) is like a tractor tyre and there may not be enough power going to the rear to influence any wear.

Every vehicle I have ever owned or raced the driven tyres wore about 50% faster than the braking fronts, there are two forces at play on driven wheel, acceleration and drag when decelerating, if you are driving well and safely you should rarely need to use brakes at all, if you are constantly braking then you are doing something very wrong, a good driver rarely uses the brake with any purpose

[NeverSure]

If it's just HD you're talking about then there could be 2x reasons a front none driven tyre will wear faster - the rear tyre on a Harley (most that I've seen) is like a tractor tyre and there may not be enough power going to the rear to influence any wear.

Every vehicle I have ever owned or raced the driven tyres wore about 50% faster than the braking fronts, there are two forces at play on driven wheel, acceleration and drag when decelerating, if you are driving well and safely you should rarely need to use brakes at all, if you are constantly braking then you are doing something very wrong, a good driver rarely uses the brake with any purpose

In circle track or road racing I agree. Surely you don't mean you won't need to brake for other drivers or lights and stop signs in traffic.

The Harleys I have now are ridden for transportation or pleasure on sane public roads, including in town. Braking is done from 65 mph at stop signs in the country and at some stop lights. Braking is regular in stop and go town traffic.

If there were a world where all roads were straight and never a corner or curve, the front tires on my car and pickup would wear first due to design and weight transfer when braking. Acceleration would have little effect by comparison.

We all know that the brakes on the front of a car are larger than the back and for a reason, and braking is biased to the front. On a motorcycle we have to apply that principle for ourselves.

If I could somehow do most of the braking on my car with the rear brakes, I would soon lose control. I also wouldn't stop well due to no weight transfer to the rear. The factory knows that and puts the braking bias to the front, even on a car. The physical and geometric reasons are the same for the bike and the car. We just don't need to learn it for the car because the factory built it into the design.

[poanoi]

There is a simple explanation for these two different observations.

HD are underpowered & overwheight, meaning there isnt enough power to ever lose traction on the back wheel during acceleration.

OTOH it is also overweight which result in a lot of wear on the front wheel to stop the thing.

[NeverSure]

Someone thinks a Harley won't do a burnout? Harley engines are torque engines, not horsepower priority. They have gobs of power. I could keep one sideways all day long if I liked to abuse things.

This is your run of the mill Harley Heritage Softail Classic although it doesn't say it. Just FYI.

[NeverSure]

Harleys aren't overweight nor do they lack maneuverability. Surely I've posted enough vids. They are road bikes and the heavier the better. That police officer above can make a big road bike dance, or he could do a burnout to tire explosion, or he could comfortably cruise the freeways from coast to coast.

The front tire is sized for the weight and has nothing to do with why the front tire wears out first any more than the front tires on a car wearing out first. Is my 4x4 Ford F150 four door overweight therefore causing the front tires to wear first? I didn't think so.

[poanoi]

Conclusion: HD can only lose traction on back wheel if driven into a wall.

Good for you, you save money on back tires.

All vehicles are overweight if you are into performance.

Acceleration? weight =bad

maneuverability? momentum from weight =bad

deceleration? momentum from weight =bad

Ever wondered why all fighter a/c are subject to weight concern & wing loading?

Edited October 29, 2012 by poanoi

[NeverSure]

Conclusion: HD can only lose traction on back wheel if driven into a wall.

Not at all true. He wanted to hold the bike in place long enough to blow a tire. His burnout lasted for more than a minute. He certainly proved that the weight of the bike didn't prohibit a burnout not only in low gear, but he kept upshifting to get the tire to spin faster.

All vehicles are overweight if you are into performance.

Acceleration? weight =bad

maneuverability? momentum from weight =bad

deceleration? momentum from weight =bad

Who, when buying the cars or bikes we see daily on the street is into that type of performance? By that standard, a BMW M6 at more than $100,000 is a lousy performer.

I'm outta here. I posted the vids, made the points, and anyone left who just wants to argue may do it among themselves. I'm going for a ride.

Have a great day. No hard feelings, OK?

I'll end with a vid of a guy who didn't know how to countersteer, which would have saved his life.

[poanoi]

No hard feelings at all, i just thought the video funny.

I stand by the physics tho, and even harley do that actually,

they made one model with performance in mind, an 1100 IIRC, and that bike have gone to great length

to reduce weight wherever possible

[OZEMADE]

Well hopefully all that braking that riders don’t understand will be a thing of the past soon. I see that a few new bikes are now coming out with ABS braking systems on them. The Yamaha 1200cc Super Tenere has ABS and it works great. When the hand brake is applied, it brakes harder on the front than on the back. This front braking is also adjustable. You can also use the braking individually, because if you use the foot brake that disengages the ABS front brake and you can then use either for your own comfort.

Edited October 30, 2012 by OZEMADE

[poanoi]

Westerners learn in driving school that the front wheel makes most of the braking power.

Thai's however do not.

I recall my first land lady saying 'falang use the front brake because they are stupid'

[ALFREDO]

Yep, when you brake with your back tire it will just skid. If you brake with the front, the front will dip, transferring weight and therefore traction onto the front tire. That's traction you'll never get with the rear. Ever wonder why back tires wear out first? Poor braking technique. My front tires wear out first.

You are right, the front brake has much more of the breaking possibility and is much more important.

That your front tire is worn out more fast than your back tire, could be possible, when you nearly never use your back brake,

or only very soft-than its for no reason anyway

and most important, when your bike has nearly NO POWER, possible an Automatic scooter, and/or you pull your throttle same a raw egg.

Otherwise and sure with any bigger bike, the rear wheel powered bike, same on a powerful rear wheel powered car, uses the back tire up more fast.

No burn out necessary, there is always a slightly wheel spin, more power and torque, more invisible wheel spin,which uses up the tire.

I use most times no rear brake at all driving my sport bikes since 35 years.

If you use the front brake to its fullest possibility, the rear wheel comes up, not help to break than anyway there than in the back.

But also without that effect, the back brakes share at the retardation, is small.

Some, Racing drivers slide the bike with the back brake in the right position,special in more powerful classes.

But that is a different story.

Who uses the back break a lot, even more than the front break, is an inexperienced driver or wrong educated.

[ALFREDO]

Yep, when you brake with your back tire it will just skid. If you brake with the front, the front will dip, transferring weight and therefore traction onto the front tire. That's traction you'll never get with the rear. Ever wonder why back tires wear out first? Poor braking technique. My front tires wear out first.

And the reason rear tyres wear out first is simply because that is were the power is delivered - why on earth are you posting such utter nonesense

Not trying to offend here mate but jesus if you're going to give advise opinions or facts here ......... make sure they're right

Yes, usual the back tire gets "bold" first, maybe, riding your small powered scooter with never really "Pull the throttle cable" strong

and use mostly your front brake,its a possibility, the front tire sees his last day first. But not normal! Maybe a "old lady" driving.

When -Never Sure- uses his front wheel also on his Harley, which has a lot of torque,

more early up than his back tire, than -its a kind of driving, I am not used to.

I never drove a Harley and do not want to , I am more connect to ROSSI and Co.

Edited November 5, 2012 by ALFREDO

[ALFREDO]

We gee uh... I've live in LOS a total of 6 months and I never ONCE saw a single soul who knew how to ride a motorcycle. Those same principles apply to bicycles, scooters and big motorcycles.

Ok,but Bangkok,is not real Motorbikes paradise, where you show your skills.

Better in the country side, maybe,

Patong - Ranong - Chumphon,

Phuket - Satun,

Bangkok - Kanchanaburi, Chiang Mai - Pai - Mae Hong Son.

Chiang Rai and surroundings - Myanmar border.

Korat - Trat - Hat Lek (Cambodian border) ect.

PM me and I show you a sole who can drive here ,but I am in Isaan and Phuket sometimes, not in Bangkok.

Maybe come in the next days for a trip.

Edited November 5, 2012 by ALFREDO

[ALFREDO]

The above is correct: you generally wear out the fronts twice as fast as rears. The fronts constantly squirm from small steering inputs in a straight line, they must bear more of the load to initiate turns after braking, experience greater tire deformation over a small contact patch and, freqent braking moves the weight of the bike toward the front, causing a greater wear rate relative to the back. Same thing with cars. You rotate fronts to back diagonally, generally speaking -- if all four tires are the same size.

Its a far possibility in my remembrance, that Harleys and similar Choppers, have that characteristic to use up front wheels first, (I read or saw that sometimes-have very seldom connection with that type of Motorbike drivers-different kind of breed and style of driving.

Anyway a living Dinosaur of the Motorbike world.

But, -Kaoboi Bebobp- not tell me that is also happening in Japanese and Italien and even German and Austrian (KTM) Sport Bikes!

A -Hayabusa- HONDA CBR Fireblade, using her front wheel up more early?

The Yamaha R1? Come on,I drive such bikes starting with the Kawasaki 650 since 1978!

Did my friends and I dream the last 35 years of Sport Bike driving.No year without a sport bike since!

Formula One Race circuit I even drove on The Austrian A 1 Ring for some years.

Never use my back brake (nearly never) and never used up my front wheel first.

Shall we ask ROSSI, which tyre quits first?

Harley is not alone in the Motorbike world, there are Sport and Dirt and Enduro Bikes to.

Edited November 5, 2012 by ALFREDO

[ALFREDO]

If it's just HD you're talking about then there could be 2x reasons a front none driven tyre will wear faster - the rear tyre on a Harley (most that I've seen) is like a tractor tyre and there may not be enough power going to the rear to influence any wear.

Every vehicle I have ever owned or raced the driven tyres wore about 50% faster than the braking fronts

In circle track or road racing I agree. Surely you don't mean you won't need to brake for other drivers or lights and stop signs in traffic.

The Harleys I have now are ridden for transportation or pleasure on sane public roads, including in town. Braking is done from 65 mph at stop signs in the country and at some stop lights. Braking is regular in stop and go town traffic.

If there were a world where all roads were straight and never a corner or curve, the front tires on my car and pickup would wear first due to design and weight transfer when braking. Acceleration would have little effect by comparison.

You never wrote only from Harleys, you wrote from "Motorbikes' Choppers and Harleys are only a small part of the motorcycle world!

But when you seriously believe that the today 180+ horsepower Sport Bikes use normal, their Front wheel up first

and use their back wheel up first, only because the drivers are braking wrong, than, you have no idea from so called Street-Sport Bikes.

Speak that on a Motorbike Sports Bikers table and they will tell you, that you are insane!

Even my small Honda 400 CBR Fireblade in Thailand I own uses up her rear tire very fast!

But I do not drive same a douche bag or wimp when I drive, -I pull the cord decent!- and NO, I do not use my back brake!

Regarding a Pick Up, your front tires are worn out also in the front first, what kind of driver are you?

You drive a "No Power at all" Pick up?

My Toyota 163 HP 2 door light weight Pick up spins his wheels at every slower corner and from the green light.

I not use the back brake , but the rear tire goes first bold! I change them to the front regular.

Front wheels go bold first same on my old Porsche 944 TS.

Edited November 5, 2012 by ALFREDO

[ALFREDO]

I'll end with a vid of a guy who didn't know how to countersteer, which would have saved his life.

That unlucky guy was carried out of the curve, by his, far from perfect driving style, he is afraid of some more "oblique position" -angle- thats a

Some more "oblique position" -angle- would do the trick.

[ALFREDO]

Well hopefully all that braking that riders don’t understand will be a thing of the past soon. I see that a few new bikes are now coming out with ABS braking systems on them. The Yamaha 1200cc Super Tenere has ABS and it works great. When the hand brake is applied, it brakes harder on the front than on the back. This front braking is also adjustable. You can also use the braking individually, because if you use the foot brake that disengages the ABS front brake and you can then use either for your own comfort.

I had on my Moto Guzzi Les Mans 1000 cc in 1980 already a kind of an "ancestor" of Front and Back breaking - dual braking system,

front and back with the foot brake pedal, called, -INTEGRAL- Breaking system.

A bit of ABS in the making, more break power was delivered to the front so.

http://www.motorradonline.de/lexikon/integralbremse/41318

"1974 Moto Guzzi took up this idea and developed together with the Italian brake manufacturer Brembo first hydraulically actuated integral braking system. In this system via the brake pedal, both the rear wheel, as well as the left front wheel is actuated. The handbrake lever delayed contrast, only the right front wheel and is actually more intended as an emergency brake. This is necessary because the legislator prescribes two independently acting braking systems."

When it came to Racing (Battle of Twins in the 80is-90is) the Moto Guzzi drivers got rid of the system!

[ALFREDO]

"Since rear tires have a tendency to wear down twice as fast as the front tires do, you'll find that you will have to change them twice as much."

FROM

http://www.bikebandit.com/community/guides/street-motorcycle-tires

[poanoi]

@ALFREDO You need to increase font size, i can't read it.

Click on [more options] next to the [submit] button, then up-left you have font size,

scroll down select size.

[Daewoo]

NeverSure - You arguments contradict themselves...

You are absolutely correct that the front brake does almost all of the braking when used aggressively... to the point that the rear tyre might well be off the ground... this contradicts your arguement that braking is the reason for rear tyre wear... since there is little weight, and therefore little force on the rear tyre...

The rear brake is for low speed, where using the front causes the front to spring around, and also weights the front and encourages it to follow cracks or deformities in the pavement... or sometimes to bring the bike in tighter if you are running a bit wide on turn in (trail-braking)...

I know that on my FZ1, the rear tyre is consumed much faster than the front due to enthusiastic use of the happy handle...

[ALFREDO]

-Poanoi-

That works with -Copy and Paste- also? Do not think so and in that way I placed it. So I write it new for you.

"Since rear tires have a tendency to wear down twice as fast as the front tires do, you'll find that you will have to change them twice as much"

Since rear tires have a tendency to wear down twice as fast as the front tires do, you'll find that you will have to change them twice as much"

FROM

http://www.bikebandi...otorcycle-tires

-NeverSure-

I would like to drive with you, sorry that we are far apart and I would hate to drive my old "Lady" (born 1993) in Bangkok,

I not sure she survives that stop and go heat onslaught.

Better it would be anywhere in my beloved place -The Swiss/Italien Alps.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stelvio_Pass

The Stelvio Pass (Italian: Passo dello Stelvio; German: Stilfser Joch), located in Italy, at 2757 m (9045 feet) is the highest paved mountain pass in the Eastern Alps, and the second highest in the Alps

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furka_Pass

Furka Pass (el. 2429 m.) is a high mountain pass in the Swiss Alps connecting Gletsch, Valais with Realp, Uri.

[poanoi]

It works if you mark the text, and then select a font size.

[ALFREDO]

It works if you mark the text, and then select a font size.

a "Since rear tires have a tendency to wear down twice as fast as the front tires do, you'll find that you will have to change them twice as much.

No with Copy and Paste, does not work with me.

More in PM if you want to advise me more.

[Rimmer]

Topic is so far off the rails now there is no option but to close it.

//CLOSED//