Asia's Archaic Sex Work Laws

[chiangmaikelly]

Call them whatever you like, they are still what they are. They will still be prostituting themselves no matter what name you attach to them. Call a parott a peacock it is still a parot.

You hit the nail on the head. The UN says there are people like you. See, the UN just thinks it is a job. Where as you think it is something dirty, or immoral.

Well I do have a personal opinion of bargirls and the things they do but I will not say what it is on here.

It's OK George. You can tell us.

[chooka]

Call them whatever you like, they are still what they are. They will still be prostituting themselves no matter what name you attach to them. Call a parott a peacock it is still a parot.

You hit the nail on the head. The UN says there are people like you. See, the UN just thinks it is a job. Where as you think it is something dirty, or immoral.

Well I do have a personal opinion of bargirls and the things they do but I will not say what it is on here.

It's OK George. You can tell us.

I had some mates organise a prostitute for me on my bucks night a few years back. I just couldn't bring myself to touch it, that thought of what she did was a huge turn off for me. It didn't go to waste tho, 1/2 dozen very drunk mates lined to have thier way with it. I must say I to think of them as dirty.

Edited October 24, 2012 by chooka

[chiangmaikelly]

You hit the nail on the head. The UN says there are people like you. See, the UN just thinks it is a job. Where as you think it is something dirty, or immoral.

Well I do have a personal opinion of bargirls and the things they do but I will not say what it is on here.

It's OK George. You can tell us.

I had some mates organise a prostitute for me on my bucks night a few years back. I just couldn't bring myself to touch it, that thought of what she did was a huge turn off for me. It didn't go to waste tho, 1/2 dozen very drunk mates lined to have thier way with it. I must say I to think of them as dirty.

"Touch it" Kind of says it all don't it?

[Arkady]

Since when are abortions legal in Thailand? And certainly Jerrysteve is right about many poor mothers being forced into sex-work, what other jobs can an uneducated Isaan girl get? It all starts with education or a lack thereof and the same uneducated Thai men being rather irresponsible. Just about every girl I talk to, not all bargirls, do have at least 1 or 2 kids with "Papa no have".

There must be plenty of work apart from prostitution available for Thai women with minimum education, given the acute labour shortage. It just doesn't pay as well and is a lot more onerous. Thailand has had to import 4 million foreign workers.

[chiangmaikelly]

Since when are abortions legal in Thailand? And certainly Jerrysteve is right about many poor mothers being forced into sex-work, what other jobs can an uneducated Isaan girl get? It all starts with education or a lack thereof and the same uneducated Thai men being rather irresponsible. Just about every girl I talk to, not all bargirls, do have at least 1 or 2 kids with "Papa no have".

There must be plenty of work apart from prostitution available for Thai women with minimum education, given the acute labour shortage. It just doesn't pay as well and is a lot more onerous. Thailand has had to import 4 million foreign workers.

They also import a lot of sex workers.

[fruittbatt]

I think the majority of prostitutes in Thailand are very sensible regarding them not having unprotected sex with clients, and I also think the prostitute’s western customers are also very educated and are aware of HIV and all the other STD’s that you can receive / give by having unprotected sex.

I agree, Jim, having had some contact with the sex-worker organisation "Empower" in Chiang Mai. Empower advocates on behalf of sex-workers and does excellent work teaching women English, training them in bar and computer skills at their very own "Can-do" bar in Chiang Mai Land, and providing plenty of support and peer education in matters such as sexual health and safe practices. Perhaps most importantly, they support women to develop self-esteem by being proud of the work they do, not injured by the stigma which has traditionally adhered to the notion of "prostitution". Women are also proud to refer to themselves as "whores" - owning the very term that has been used frequently to tar them with pariah status.

Another interesting observation by some posters is that sex-work should be legalised so that it can be better policed! This suggests that it is sex-workers, not their clients who are the major cause of STDs generally and HIV in particular. From my own experience in teaching English to sex-workers in Thailand several years ago, I can assure posters that the large majority of women in a (farang-frequented) bar refused to have unprotected sex even when a foreign client offered them big bucks to do so.

Part of the reason that sex work was legalised in countries such as Australia and New Zealand was to stop corrupt police and underworld elements from collecting bribes from Madams each week. Another reason was -ostensibly - to police the industry by regular health checks. While both these aims are laudable, there are also intrinsic problems with legalisation. The first is that women who are infected will put themselves and their clients at further risk by freelancing in dark streets which are cruising spots for clients in cars. The second is that women who are addicted to drugs or alcohol will be excluded from "legal" houses, and will also work illegally, increasing the risk of spreading Hepatitis B or C, and putting themselves at risk as well. Needless to say, the "black market" is still fraught with corruption. Pimps exploit the most vulnerable street sex workers, while Madams still operate illegal houses, occasionally with women who have been brought from poor countries in the region with the promise of a job. No doubt some of these women are well aware of the nature of the work they are expected to do, but the point is that they are not in control of the exploitative terms of the contract/loan repayment which is imposed on them.

So, legalisation is not the whole solution for Thailand or anywhere else in the world.

[ajarnyai]

I just love the idea that when money changes hands, sex is bad and illegal. No one thinks about all those that have sex with many people for free. What about the women that have sex with one man because of the money he gives her.

Just stop the human trafficking, sex slavery, and the like and institute a time requirement on how long you must pay a women for sex. Say 2 weeks to 2 months. That way they will all be girlfriends and the STD risk would be about the same. Do that and completely forget about alimony.

Did I lease a car that I have to continue to pay for after the engine seized (too old to be lubricated)

We are talking about people, right?

Gender equality, and disease are real issues. Who pays who for what is not really important. It's considered a moral issue, but I don't think so. Relations between men and women are what they are. Deals that are made are the business of the individuals; not the government. My motivation for sex is pleasure, yours procreation, his dominance, hers money. Most adults have sex why make their intentions so important.

What difference does it make. Deal with the real problems. I can't say legalization is the solution, but why try to police something you can't police. If people have the right to have up registered, unmonitored, extra-marital sex then what can you do to stop the flow of money, or gifts.

Even Muslim countries have prostitutes. They stone women that have sex outside of marriage, but many say that is wrong.

Why fight a force of nature?

[DrTuner]

Why fight a force of nature?

Extending availability of sex by introducing affordable services is pure poison to many groups benefiting from inflated costs of a coitus. Clergy, feminists, whole governments .. you name it. Worlds oldest trade has many interest groups.

[chiangmaikelly]

Why fight a force of nature?

Extending availability of sex by introducing affordable services is pure poison to many groups benefiting from inflated costs of a coitus. Clergy, feminists, whole governments .. you name it. Worlds oldest trade has many interest groups.

Ya I can see that. but what do the Aussies on Thai Visa have against it?

[SteeleJoe]

So what do you think, "In fact, just about every country’s approach does more harm than good, fueling stigma and discrimination, limiting access to sexual health services and condoms, and affecting the self-esteem of sex workers who may have no other avenue to earn income, according to a new United Nations report." Is the report correct? I mean we have a couple of posters above who even disagree with raising the sex workers self esteem by calling them sex workers.

I am not as knowledgeable as I used to be -- or rather my knowledge was gained quite some time back so in some respects may be out of date -- but I don't have any issues with the report.

They are "sex workers", I don't know why anyone would care if they are called that. Having said that, I personally don't think "prostitute" should be considered inherently pejorative - it isn't to me but I know it is to some. If you tell me someone is a prostitute that doesn't necessarily mean I'm any more or less likely to think well of them than if you told me they were a plumber or an accountant.

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[SteeleJoe]

Any ambitious change in laws regarding prostitution would require the cooperation of the police who currently control/make money from illegal prostitution. I don't believe anything like this will happen until Thailand takes care of the problem of law enforcement first.

Indisputable.

Like so many things, far more than I think most people realize -- even those who express a great deal of dismay and concern about it -- all pervasive corruption is at the core of it and hugely impedes or fully prevents any improvement.

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[SteeleJoe]

I think the majority of prostitutes in Thailand are very sensible regarding them not having unprotected sex with clients, and I also think the prostitute’s western customers are also very educated and are aware of HIV and all the other STD’s that you can receive / give by having unprotected sex.

Well, hooray for the western customers and the women who service them. Now what about the other 90% of prostitutes and their Asian (primarily Thai) customers?

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[SteeleJoe]

Don't you just love it when a group such as the UN Development Program start manipulating the English language, so it is now suggested that in view of political correctness we refer to such activities as sex workers. Changes nothing in my opinion and will have absolutely no impact on the attitudes of individuals on both sides of the fence. Do they really think that a sex worker in Thailand gives a dam as to whether Falangs call her a prostitute or a sex worker.. Hi Mum I would like you to meet Nong who is my gf I met in Pattaya. No , no she is not a prostitute she is a sex worker !!. As I said before ,changes nothing.

I think it is better because it is work. People should not get arrested because of working. A sex worker is not the same a bank robber. Some countries treat them the same. Call it what it is. It is work. Love is love and sex work is work. Big difference.

It is, I suppose work however, it is still prostitution. In some sections of society bank robbery could be considered as work as it is their chosen profession, illegal certainly but it is how they earn a living. I fail to see why we need to consider changes in the potential stigma associated with a specific profession. It is what it is. Furthermore in my experience, excluding the Middle East,bank robbery carries a significantly higher jurisprudence than prostitution. There is a myriad of terms used in Europe and the USA in order to deviate from the reality, such as Escort , Call Girl, Hooker, and they are all Sex Workers and by definition prostitutes. Changing the name does nothing to minimise the activity. Perhaps this is akin to , one mans terroist is another mans freedom fighter.

You what?!

Bank robbing and prostitution? Absurd analogy.

"The myriad of terms" are not "used to deviate from reality". Yes, it is still prostitution. So? Changing the name "does nothing to minimise the activity"? Is that the goal of a hypothetical name change? And what do you mean by "minimise" and is that something that we should do?

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[chiangmaikelly]

I think the majority of prostitutes in Thailand are very sensible regarding them not having unprotected sex with clients, and I also think the prostitute's western customers are also very educated and are aware of HIV and all the other STD's that you can receive / give by having unprotected sex.

Well, hooray for the western customers and the women who service them. Now what about the other 90% of prostitutes and their Asian (primarily Thai) customers?

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Not getting into the specifics of prostitution but there is an on line service that has live conversation as a feature. It has been my experience that 9 out of 10 can be negotiated with no condom for little or no extra charge. I would say the use of condoms is highly exaggerated.

[uptheos]

Legalise prostitution or simply de-criminalise it.........along with a few other things that aren't harmful.

[SteeleJoe]

I think the majority of prostitutes in Thailand are very sensible regarding them not having unprotected sex with clients, and I also think the prostitute's western customers are also very educated and are aware of HIV and all the other STD's that you can receive / give by having unprotected sex.

Well, hooray for the western customers and the women who service them. Now what about the other 90% of prostitutes and their Asian (primarily Thai) customers?

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

Not getting into the specifics of prostitution but there is an on line service that has live conversation as a feature. It has been my experience that 9 out of 10 can be negotiated with no condom for little or no extra charge. I would say the use of condoms is highly exaggerated.

I don't doubt that there is plenty of unprotected sex going on -- just as there are even still commercial sex venues where protection is not an option nor are selecting or refusing which customers one serves or how many.

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[uptheos]

I don't doubt that there is plenty of unprotected sex going on -- just as there are even still commercial sex venues where protection is not an option nor are selecting or refusing which customers one serves or how many.

True and these serve almost exclusively Thai's.

[SteeleJoe]

I don't doubt that there is plenty of unprotected sex going on -- just as there are even still commercial sex venues where protection is not an option nor are selecting or refusing which customers one serves or how many.

True and these serve almost exclusively Thai's.

Yep. (With an occasional regional neighbor.) Westerners are typically not even allowed in such places even when they are aware of them and their locations (which they generally are not).

This is a statement of fact and it has nothing to do with racism nor should it be concluded from this that Westerners are inherently more just or humane. It's simply that the Thais are afraid of Western do-gooders and authorities and thus even a cruel and twisted Farang who wanted to patronize such a place would, for the most part, simply not have a chance to.

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[uptheos]

I don't doubt that there is plenty of unprotected sex going on -- just as there are even still commercial sex venues where protection is not an option nor are selecting or refusing which customers one serves or how many.

True and these serve almost exclusively Thai's.

Yep. (With an occasional regional neighbor.) Westerners are typically not even allowed in such places even when they are aware of them and their locations (which they generally are not).

This is a statement of fact and it has nothing to do with racism nor should it be concluded from this that Westerners are inherently more just or humane. It's simply that the Thais are afraid of Western do-gooders and authorities and thus even a cruel and twisted Farang who wanted to patronize such a place would, for the most part, simply not have a chance to.

Fully understood.

[chiangmaikelly]

I don't doubt that there is plenty of unprotected sex going on -- just as there are even still commercial sex venues where protection is not an option nor are selecting or refusing which customers one serves or how many.

True and these serve almost exclusively Thai's.

No I was talking about the INTERNET and serving people who almost exclusively write English. As we speak there are 40,000 users world wide and 2000 on in Thailand.

[SteeleJoe]

I don't doubt that there is plenty of unprotected sex going on -- just as there are even still commercial sex venues where protection is not an option nor are selecting or refusing which customers one serves or how many.

True and these serve almost exclusively Thai's.

No I was talking about the INTERNET and serving people who almost exclusively write English. As we speak there are 40,000 users world wide and 2000 on in Thailand.

Read again. You've missed something.

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[chiangmaikelly]

I don't doubt that there is plenty of unprotected sex going on -- just as there are even still commercial sex venues where protection is not an option nor are selecting or refusing which customers one serves or how many.

True and these serve almost exclusively Thai's.

No I was talking about the INTERNET and serving people who almost exclusively write English. As we speak there are 40,000 users world wide and 2000 on in Thailand.

Read again. You've missed something.

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I don't know why we are not communicating maybe me. People who want dates are Farang and the people who provide the dates are Thai and 90% will agree not to use a condom. What did we miss.

[uptheos]

I don't doubt that there is plenty of unprotected sex going on -- just as there are even still commercial sex venues where protection is not an option nor are selecting or refusing which customers one serves or how many.

True and these serve almost exclusively Thai's.

No I was talking about the INTERNET and serving people who almost exclusively write English. As we speak there are 40,000 users world wide and 2000 on in Thailand.

Really, I'll just double check those figures.

[SteeleJoe]

I don't think "we" missed anything. This is the post that you are not reading or misunderstanding:

I don't doubt that there is plenty of unprotected sex going on -- just as there are even still commercial sex venues where protection is not an option nor are selecting or refusing which customers one serves or how many.

True and these serve almost exclusively Thai's.

.

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[wallcracks]

Particularly in Thailand since there are no laws are on the books for men who like to get off and make babies are hunted down and forced to pay financal support..'Unlike the west where large percentage a man's salary may be attached or thrown in Jail if they fail to financially support children whom he help foster into theworld, there-by putting the total weight & financial burden 100% percent on the woman, what alternatives does she have in light of and in view of total lack of education and the necessary skills to be a productive individual in a society which is governed irresponsible and imature men.Until more women get into grass root politics and obtain political clout to change the rules of the game...NOTHING WILL EVER CHANGE.

A man would never get away with that kind of crap in the western countires, especially in the U.SA.

and periodically the man would be taken to court by the woman for increases in child support based on a record of his salary increases if any, usually win.

Specially in Thailand no woman is forced to get children....There are plenty solutions to not get pregnant and they are well known and as well abortion is legal in Thailand.

Abortion is not legal in Thailand, except in the case of pregnancy as a result of rape, or if the mother's life is in danger as a result of the pregnancy.

Right and why would anyone go to a illegal Clinic if it would be legal and you could just step into any Government Hospital and do a abortion??

[chiangmaikelly]

I don't doubt that there is plenty of unprotected sex going on -- just as there are even still commercial sex venues where protection is not an option nor are selecting or refusing which customers one serves or how many.

True and these serve almost exclusively Thai's.

This is the post that you are not reading or misunderstanding.

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Since they serve almost exclusively Farang I don't know what you are talking about.

[SteeleJoe]

Can't get the quote function to work properly and include both quotes. Go back and read a few posts.

Edited October 25, 2012 by SteeleJoe

[SteeleJoe]

I said:

"I don't doubt that there is plenty of unprotected sex going on -- just as there are even still commercial sex venues where protection is not an option nor are selecting or refusing which customers one serves or how many."

The next poster replied:

"True and these serve almost exclusively Thai's."

To which I further replied:

"Yep. (With an occasional regional neighbor.) Westerners are typically not even allowed in such places even when they are aware of them and their locations (which they generally are not).

This is a statement of fact and it has nothing to do with racism nor should it be concluded from this that Westerners are inherently more just or humane. It's simply that the Thais are afraid of Western do-gooders and authorities and thus even a cruel and twisted Farang who wanted to patronize such a place would, for the most part, simply not have a chance to"

You seem to have missed all that.

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Edited October 25, 2012 by SteeleJoe

[chiangmaikelly]

I said:

I don't doubt that there is plenty of unprotected sex going on -- just as there are even still commercial sex venues where protection is not an option nor are selecting or refusing which customers one serves or how many.

The next poster replied that such places serve almost exclusively Thai customers. I agreed and elaborated. He replied to that further post from me.

You seem to have missed all that.

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What I said was, I was talking about the INTERNET and serving people who almost exclusively write English. As we speak there are 40,000 users world wide and 2000 on in Thailand.

"Since they serve almost exclusively Farang I don't know what you are talking about."

9 out of 10 people who use the above service will agree not to use a condom for little or no extra money.

Edited October 25, 2012 by chiangmaikelly

[uptheos]

I said:

I don't doubt that there is plenty of unprotected sex going on -- just as there are even still commercial sex venues where protection is not an option nor are selecting or refusing which customers one serves or how many.

The next poster replied that such places serve almost exclusively Thai customers. I agreed and elaborated. He replied to that further post from me.

You seem to have missed all that.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa ap

What I said was, I was talking about the INTERNET and serving people who almost exclusively write English. As we speak there are 40,000 users world wide and 2000 on in Thailand."Since they serve almost exclusively Farang I don't know what you are talking about."

9 out of 10 people who use the above service will agree not to use a condom for little or no extra money.

As we speak?

Where are you getting your figures from?