Contractor Guy Run Out On Me With Deposit. Legal Help ?

[Holysteel]

Hello everybody.

I hired a local contractor to do some renovation works. I put 50% down of the total quote amount to him. He did a runner, mobile off, shop which he rent is always closed.

Has anybody got into similar situation?

Please kindly advise.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

sol, legal no help

extra-legal cannot

[mrtoad]

I don't think you will be the first here that this has happened to. Not sure how easy it will be to reclaim the monies through the legal system, might be better to speak to someone who can put some pressure on.

[jbrain]

I don't know where you are located, but in every cityhall in Thailand there is an office of the board of consumer protection.

Go have a talk with them. In my 4 cases I took to them they worked wonders.

Big companies in Thailand who were playing with me for months in a row, were happy to clear everything within 48 hours after being contacted by the lawyer of the organisation.

[theblether]

I don't know where you are located, but in every cityhall in Thailand there is an office of the board of consumer protection.

Go have a talk with them. In my 4 cases I took to them they worked wonders.

Big companies in Thailand who were playing with me for months in a row, were happy to clear everything within 48 hours after being contacted by the lawyer of the organisation.

Very interesting jbrain, thanks for that.......would you like to give an example of what happened?

[jbrain]

I don't know where you are located, but in every cityhall in Thailand there is an office of the board of consumer protection.

Go have a talk with them. In my 4 cases I took to them they worked wonders.

Big companies in Thailand who were playing with me for months in a row, were happy to clear everything within 48 hours after being contacted by the lawyer of the organisation.

Very interesting jbrain, thanks for that.......would you like to give an example of what happened?

One company who has branches in every major city in Thailand, delivered a 40.000 Baht item to my home which didn't function as they promised.

When I notified them about they told me that this was normal and that they never had claimed anything else.

As i continued to call them they told me they would return my money. Actually kept delaying that for 2 months so I told them I would take them to court as I had proof of their lies,.

They laughed in my face and didn't answer my calls anymore for the next 3 months.

When the lawyer from the customer protection called them they signed an agreement within the next 48 hours that they would fully return my money, which I received a few weeks later as it were just the new year holidays.

[Langsuan Man]

Unfortunately this is all too common here in Thailand and I don't think you are going to have much luck in getting blood out of a stone but here is a form in English where you can at least vent your frustration and possibly get some satisfaction from the Office of The Consumer Protection Board

I filled out the form and emailed it when I had a problem with SCB, unfortunately I don't know if it helped or not but soon after sending it SCB acted upon my complaint and returned my incorrectly transferred funds

Source:

http://www.ocpb.go.th/

ComplaintFormForForeignerOnly_081254.pdf

[IamNotaNumber]

I don't think you will be the first here that this has happened to.

Surely not. It even happens to mods.

[Beetlejuice]

Unfortunately this is all too common here in Thailand and I don't think you are going to have much luck in getting blood out of a stone but here is a form in English where you can at least vent your frustration and possibly get some satisfaction from the Office of The Consumer Protection Board

I filled out the form and emailed it when I had a problem with SCB, unfortunately I don't know if it helped or not but soon after sending it SCB acted upon my complaint and returned my incorrectly transferred funds

Source:

http://www.ocpb.go.th/

ComplaintFormForForeignerOnly_081254.pdf

That`s completely different.

If the OP owns the property he wanted renovated legally under Thai law, than all he needs to do is file a criminal theft report with the police.

If not has all been done above board, than forget it, the OP has no chance.

[jbrain]

Unfortunately this is all too common here in Thailand and I don't think you are going to have much luck in getting blood out of a stone but here is a form in English where you can at least vent your frustration and possibly get some satisfaction from the Office of The Consumer Protection Board

I filled out the form and emailed it when I had a problem with SCB, unfortunately I don't know if it helped or not but soon after sending it SCB acted upon my complaint and returned my incorrectly transferred funds

Source:

http://www.ocpb.go.th/

ComplaintFormForForeignerOnly_081254.pdf

That`s completely different.

If the OP owns the property he wanted renovated legally under Thai law, than all he needs to do is file a criminal theft report with the police.

If not has all been done above board, than forget it, the OP has no chance.

You can't make a police report as this is a civil case, I know because I tried before.

Even if they could find a reason to make it a criminal case, you're lucky if the police will make the report for free, you will need to take a lawyer and bring it to court.All at your expense.

If you go to the office of consumer protection board the lawyer will listen to your complaint, after which he will hear the other party.

He will make a decision which is binding and suggest a settlement to which both parties have to agree.If one party rejects his decision, the OCPB will go to court, at their own expense.

My experience is that the OCPB has to announce his decision only formally to the other party, and everything will be cleared.Guess the OCPB has some power and he makes them aware of it.

[JurgenG]

To the OP : Why did you pay 50% in advance ?

I recently watch "Holmes on homes" (Holmes on Homes is a Canadian television series featuring general contractor Mike Holmes visiting homeowners who are in need of help, mainly due to unsatisfactory home renovations performed by hired contractors.) It was about the legal option one has after a contractor didn't do the job one paid him for. Even in Canada, it's very difficult to get any money back and Holmes best advise was to be personally involved at every step of the renovation. I understand that won't help much the OP, but it could help others to avoid to find themselves in the same situation.

http://www.hgtv.com/...show/index.html

_

Edited October 30, 2012 by JurgenG

[petedk]

To the OP : Why did you pay 50% in advance ?

I recently watch "Holmes on homes" (Holmes on Homes is a Canadian television series featuring general contractor Mike Holmes visiting homeowners who are in need of help, mainly due to unsatisfactory home renovations performed by hired contractors.) It was about the legal option one has after a contractor didn't do the job one paid him for. Even in Canada, it's very difficult to get any money back and Holmes best advise was to be personally involved at every step of the renovation. I understand that won't help much the OP, but it could help others to avoid to find themselves in the same situation.

http://www.hgtv.com/...show/index.html

_

This is Thailand not Canada.

It's normal here to pay 50% or even 100% of the material costs in advance when renovating or building a house.

Yes, many contractors run off with the money. This happened at a government institution where I work and building was stopped for almost a year while they sorted out the legal complications.

Edited October 30, 2012 by petedk

[Farma]

I posted about the same situation happening to my wife a few years ago. Despite her office being in the same building as the comsumer protection unit the easiest solution was to enlist the help of a senior police friend.

The contractor had taken an advance for materials then done a runner. We later discovered he had a gambling and drink problem.

A visit by the wife with her police friend to the builders home saw the money returned by the builders family the following day.

[JurgenG]

I understand you have to pay in advance for materials cost but you don't have to give it to the builder, you can pay the material shop directly and give the contractor only a small advance for his labor cost.

[transam]

NEVER give cash up front unless for materials. Take number of his ride, so he knows.

[mogandave]

What does the contract say?

[cheeryble]

How much we talking about?

Any paperwork?

[Beetlejuice]

Unfortunately this is all too common here in Thailand and I don't think you are going to have much luck in getting blood out of a stone but here is a form in English where you can at least vent your frustration and possibly get some satisfaction from the Office of The Consumer Protection Board

I filled out the form and emailed it when I had a problem with SCB, unfortunately I don't know if it helped or not but soon after sending it SCB acted upon my complaint and returned my incorrectly transferred funds

Source:

http://www.ocpb.go.th/

ComplaintFormForForeignerOnly_081254.pdf

That`s completely different.

If the OP owns the property he wanted renovated legally under Thai law, than all he needs to do is file a criminal theft report with the police.

If not has all been done above board, than forget it, the OP has no chance.

You can't make a police report as this is a civil case, I know because I tried before.

Even if they could find a reason to make it a criminal case, you're lucky if the police will make the report for free, you will need to take a lawyer and bring it to court.All at your expense.

If you go to the office of consumer protection board the lawyer will listen to your complaint, after which he will hear the other party.

He will make a decision which is binding and suggest a settlement to which both parties have to agree.If one party rejects his decision, the OCPB will go to court, at their own expense.

My experience is that the OCPB has to announce his decision only formally to the other party, and everything will be cleared.Guess the OCPB has some power and he makes them aware of it.

If the so-called contractor was paid 50% deposit down for the agreed work and then does a runner and cannot be contacted, than that’s criminal theft.

For example, if I were to agree to complete a job for you and take money prior to any works being carried out and then disappear, would mean that I have taken your money under false pretences and that’s criminal theft. On the other hand, if the customer had the work completed and for some reason was unable to pay, either doesn’t have the money or stops payment because he feels the work is unsatisfactory, than that’s a civil case for a debt owed, unless the contractor can prove that the customer had always intended not to pay, then that would be failure to pay with intent, and again would be a criminal case.

As for your comment; If you go to the office of consumer protection board the lawyer will listen to your complaint, after which he will hear the other party. How can they hear the other party if the other party has done a vanishing act with the OPS money?

My previous comments still stand, that this is now a police matter.

[David006]

..empathize mate ...had it happen twice...first time went to court ..he never showed up five different occasions...in the end his mother coughed up 15%..the lawyer said take it ..so I did as had enough by then....only took a year! What with lawyer costs ( dumped first lawyer as found out he was a frickin cousin!!), travel and stress ended up with about 10%....

Second time just put it down to my own stupidity and sucked it up.....

obvious moral...

[David006]

Unfortunately this is all too common here in Thailand and I don't think you are going to have much luck in getting blood out of a stone but here is a form in English where you can at least vent your frustration and possibly get some satisfaction from the Office of The Consumer Protection Board

I filled out the form and emailed it when I had a problem with SCB, unfortunately I don't know if it helped or not but soon after sending it SCB acted upon my complaint and returned my incorrectly transferred funds

Source:

http://www.ocpb.go.th/

ComplaintFormForForeignerOnly_081254.pdf

That`s completely different.

If the OP owns the property he wanted renovated legally under Thai law, than all he needs to do is file a criminal theft report with the police.

If not has all been done above board, than forget it, the OP has no chance.

You can't make a police report as this is a civil case, I know because I tried before.

Even if they could find a reason to make it a criminal case, you're lucky if the police will make the report for free, you will need to take a lawyer and bring it to court.All at your expense.

If you go to the office of consumer protection board the lawyer will listen to your complaint, after which he will hear the other party.

He will make a decision which is binding and suggest a settlement to which both parties have to agree.If one party rejects his decision, the OCPB will go to court, at their own expense.

My experience is that the OCPB has to announce his decision only formally to the other party, and everything will be cleared.Guess the OCPB has some power and he makes them aware of it.

If the so-called contractor was paid 50% deposit down for the agreed work and then does a runner and cannot be contacted, than that’s criminal theft.

For example, if I were to agree to complete a job for you and take money prior to any works being carried out and then disappear, would mean that I have taken your money under false pretences and that’s criminal theft. On the other hand, if the customer had the work completed and for some reason was unable to pay, either doesn’t have the money or stops payment because he feels the work is unsatisfactory, than that’s a civil case for a debt owed, unless the contractor can prove that the customer had always intended not to pay, then that would be failure to pay with intent, and again would be a criminal case.

As for your comment; If you go to the office of consumer protection board the lawyer will listen to your complaint, after which he will hear the other party. How can they hear the other party if the other party has done a vanishing act with the OPS money?

My previous comments still stand, that this is now a police matter.

tried the criminal theft route..police and lawyer said if you have a contract it is a civil case...

[Beetlejuice]

tried the criminal theft route..police and lawyer said if you have a contract it is a civil case...

There are several factors involved here. In a lot of these cases the police are just reluctant to take them on, or in other words, they are simply refusing to do their job. A large number of farangs that live here do not play the game strictly by the book and therefore are wary of becoming involved with the police. Going the civil route, which could include lawyers fees, court fees and the case dragging on for months or even years is not always a viable proposition.

The best methods is to never part with large amounts of money in one go and as regards renovation and building work, what most do is pay on a day to day basis, which is the common sense thing to do.

[JurgenG]

tried the criminal theft route..police and lawyer said if you have a contract it is a civil case...

There are several factors involved here. In a lot of these cases the police are just reluctant to take them on, or in other words, they are simply refusing to do their job. A large number of farangs that live here do not play the game strictly by the book and therefore are wary of becoming involved with the police. Going the civil route, which could include lawyers fees, court fees and the case dragging on for months or even years is not always a viable proposition.

The best methods is to never part with large amounts of money in one go and as regards renovation and building work, what most do is pay on a day to day basis, which is the common sense thing to do.

Agree with you.

And buy the materials by yourself. Here too you can save a lot of money. We bought the bulk of what we needed from a wholesaler and for everyday supplies we had a contract with a local shop, they delivered on site and invoiced us on a weekly basis.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

The best methods is to never part with large amounts of money in one go and as regards renovation and building work, what most do is pay on a day to day basis, which is the common sense thing to do.

Good advice. Also from a quality control POV, act as if you were the contractor yourself, pay for the materials as you go and hire labor-only to actually do the grunt work.

They often don't like to work by the hour, but if you round to the nearest half-day some of them will accept that.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

And buy the materials by yourself. Here too you can save a lot of money. We bought the bulk of what we needed from a wholesaler and for everyday supplies we had a contract with a local shop, they delivered on site and invoiced us on a weekly basis.

If you know what things are supposed to cost, sometime's it's worth letting the guy buy the materials - tradesmen get a discount and that's part of his profit margin without costing you anything more, plus you're showing that you're not accusing him of outright cheating and do trust him to a certain extent - face again. . .

[weegee]

The best methods is to never part with large amounts of money in one go and as regards renovation and building work, what most do is pay on a day to day basis, which is the common sense thing to do.

Good advice. Also from a quality control POV, act as if you were the contractor yourself, pay for the materials as you go and hire labor-only to actually do the grunt work.

They often don't like to work by the hour, but if you round to the nearest half-day some of them will accept that.

Thats right, I now pay by the hour only, and if they dont like it, I find someone else who does....Half days....NO!!!! You are never sure which half day they will come to work, and which day they will choose....sometimes 2 weeks apart.... By the hour, if they cant be be bothered showing up, just move on to the next candidate that will.....you will get action.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

The best methods is to never part with large amounts of money in one go and as regards renovation and building work, what most do is pay on a day to day basis, which is the common sense thing to do.

Good advice. Also from a quality control POV, act as if you were the contractor yourself, pay for the materials as you go and hire labor-only to actually do the grunt work.

They often don't like to work by the hour, but if you round to the nearest half-day some of them will accept that.

Thats right, I now pay by the hour only, and if they dont like it, I find someone else who does....Half days....NO!!!! You are never sure which half day they will come to work, and which day they will choose....sometimes 2 weeks apart.... By the hour, if they cant be be bothered showing up, just move on to the next candidate that will.....you will get action.

I have found it much less stressful not to take a hard line about such details, as long as I've found a guy that A does quality work and B isn't blatantly cheating me.

But then I'm paying much less per half-day than a tradesman back home would be charging me per five minutes, if you're paying anything more than say B100 per hour well then fair enough I'm sure you find good people.

Plus I usually have at least a few days' worth of work, and I don't expect it to get done in less than a calendar week or two, of course they come and go fitting my job in between their other obligations, that's what gets me a decent price.

[cheeryble]

tried the criminal theft route..police and lawyer said if you have a contract it is a civil case...

Not at all sure I agree.

Quibbling over matters in a contract is one thing.

Disappearing with funds regardless of contract or no contract is another.

In this case....we presume.....the contract is irrelevant.

Once again:

How much we talking about?

Is there any paperwork?

[mogandave]

I try to hire professionals, I always have a contract (usually put 10% down with a progress pay scheme), I check their work and their references from previous jobs, and treat them with respect. I have not had any problems that were not addressed to my satisfaction.

I think the most important thing with anything you are having done anywhere, is to not talk about price until everyone on both sides is absolutely clear on what is expected and what will be provided. I never start discussing money after that is clear.

[DLock]

Recently I had Cotto redesign my bathrooms and it was an expensive renovation. Their installation team requested 100% of the job upfront. I said that I would not pay 100% up front and they said it was policy and would not negotiate, so I cancelled the job.

The same week, I replaced my entire water system from well pumps, pressure pumps, filters and hot water heaters - he asked for zero money upfront, paid for all the equipment, installed it and only when I was satisfied gave me an itemized bill that I paid immediately.

I was really surprised at Cotto's audacity and this little plumbers trust.

[BigJohnnyBKK]

I was really surprised at Cotto's audacity and this little plumbers trust.

I'm more surprised at the latter, but then he knows you're not going anywhere and maybe his brother's the chief of police 8-)

WRT Cotto, they're obviously pursuing a "skimming the market" strategy and have as much work as they want at their outrageously inflated rates. More sensible to pay separately for materials vs labor IMO especially for tiling, since that's a relatively common skill and easy enough to verify the quality of the trademan's past work beforehand, more so than say electricians.

I learned to tile myself, pretty tricky at first but once you figure it out it's not rocket science and gives a great feeling of satisfaction.