Thai Charter Change Is The Real Battle

[webfact]

BURNING ISSUE

Charter change is the real battle

Avudh Panananda

The Nation

BANGKOK: -- Following yesterday's swearing-in ceremony, the new Cabinet will face its first litmus test in Parliament and its rise or fall will hinge on the outcome of skirmishes on the legislative floor.

Critics of the government are gearing for a protracted war to root out what they see as false democracy championed by former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra.

The pro-Thaksin camp, meanwhile, is making full preparation to rein in the critics who they see as political dinosaurs incompatible with democratic rule.

For this year's remaining few months, the government and the opposition will have two major fights - the censure debate and the charter rewrite.

Coalition and opposition whips have already scheduled the two-day censure to commence on November 25 - even though the Democrat Party is not due to file the motion of no confidence until next Wednesday.

The main opposition party is expected to single out Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra as the main target for grilling.

But many see the censure as the least of Yingluck's worries. No one is predicting the prime minister or the government is in any danger from the censure vote.

The Democrats aim to attack Yingluck in a proxy war to get to their real adversary Thaksin. So long as voters remain loyal to his brand of populism, the next general election will just be a ritual vote to reinstall Pheu Thai to power.

Based on their rebuttals during the censure, newly appointed Cabinet members will either shine or fade into oblivion.

Because Thaksin is such a powerful variable in politics, the real battle to decide on his fate will take place in connection with the charter amendments.

It is obvious Thaksin has to undo legal hurdles imposed on him following the 2006 coup if he is to return home. And the master key to resolving his legal wrangling is amending certain charter provisions, such as Article 309, which, if left unchanged, could be cited to block his amnesty.

In his Forbes interview released this week, Thaksin pointedly mentioned Pheu Thai's unwavering but careful push for charter change.

The ruling party is about to wrap up its report on rewriting the charter later this month in order to pave the way for the legislative debate within the current House session.

Coalition lawmakers have confirmed that a first move on charter rewrite will aim at amending Article 237, which prescribes punishment by party dissolution.

The government, the ruling party and the red-shirt movement are working in concerted effort to push for the passage of the charter amendments.

At this juncture, it remains unclear whether Pheu Thai will disclose its complete road map on charter change. The ruling party may opt to kick off the charter rewrite by amending just one or a few provisions in order to test the water.

Pending a successful push to amend Article 237, Pheu Thai will be home free to revamp the entire charter without risking punishment by disbandment.

Thus far the charter provision on party dissolution is the most powerful weapon wielded by the anti-Thaksin camp.

The opposition movement - including the Democrats, the yellow shirts, the multicoloured shirts, Pitak Siam, Santi Asok and leading critics such as Prasong Soonsiri - is putting up a fierce struggle to block Pheu Thai from having its way with the charter.

The fate of the government will not depend on job performance but on the outcome of skirmishes over charter amendment.

-- The Nation 2012-11-02

[asiawatcher]

Let's hope the censure motion removes the necessity of the change to the charter!

[Skywalker69]

Yingluck you and PTP are supose to work for all the people of Thailand and not for One person only. Or was it just another "wite" lie?

[TruthEyes]

The elected democratic government will amend the charter in stages, in keeping with the "Constitution Court" ruling.

A well planned strategy that will marginalise the terrorist fringe groups.

[wellred]

It's always amusing to listen to farangs who spend so long in a foreign country they feel the need to get involved in political discussions to give themselves a sense of belong. Happy politicking 'aliens'. Lol

[Sharp]

It's always amusing to listen to farangs who spend so long in a foreign country they feel the need to get involved in political discussions to give themselves a sense of belong. Happy politicking 'aliens'. Lol

Think it's called opinions which everyone is entitled too as far as I am aware ,involved "how" they can't vote !!!!

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[Curt1591]

It's always amusing to listen to farangs who spend so long in a foreign country they feel the need to get involved in political discussions to give themselves a sense of belong. Happy politicking 'aliens'. Lol

Sometimes, it's better to get an outsider's perspective. But, what amazes me is how passionate many get, losing all objectivity.

[fareastguy]

It's always amusing to listen to farangs who spend so long in a foreign country they feel the need to get involved in political discussions to give themselves a sense of belong. Happy politicking 'aliens'. Lol

My father taught me at a very young age not to enter into a conversation with an idiot, because he will drag you down to his level and beat you on experience..

So I'll not comment on this post !!

[h90]

Let's hope the censure motion removes the necessity of the change to the charter!

How that?

[asiawatcher]

Let's hope the censure motion removes the necessity of the change to the charter!

How that?

er ... lose the Govt and there's no need to enter changes to the charter they consider necessary to bring the puppet master back home. Sorry if you missed the point.

[MikeOboe57]

The elected democratic government will amend the charter in stages, in keeping with the "Constitution Court" ruling.

A well planned strategy that will marginalise the terrorist fringe groups.

After OTPC, minimum wage, rice pledging and flood prevention you should by now have realized that this "democratic government" is anything but capable of "well planned strategies".

[animatic]

They also very prudently removed many of the No Confidence vote targets from the cabinet ,

before they can be called to testify while still sitting in a Cabinet Chair.

Oh no problem, they aren't cabinet ministers, they no longer matter.

If they did something, that was their doing, not the cabinet,

nothing to see here move along.

How can you accuse the cabinet of doing something,

where the ones you accuse are not in the cabinet.

and yaday yada yada.

Edited November 2, 2012 by animatic

[OzMick]

The elected democratic government will amend the charter in stages, in keeping with the "Constitution Court" ruling.

A well planned strategy that will marginalise the terrorist fringe groups.

Throwing in casual lies in your posts is not appreciated. Unable to justify "paramilitary" you now resort to "terrorist" to describe opponents of this government.

Unless you are referring to southern muslim separatists (hardly likely to be affected by charter change), how do you justify calling them terrorists? Like paramilitary, the descriptive adjective is much more applicable to groups supporting the government, not to mention quite a few members of this government currently facing that charge.

[h90]

Let's hope the censure motion removes the necessity of the change to the charter!

How that?

er ... lose the Govt and there's no need to enter changes to the charter they consider necessary to bring the puppet master back home. Sorry if you missed the point.

no I mean how it should be possible that the Govt lose it?? All the PTP MPs will vote what they are told to vote. It isn't that they decide on their own. They vote what they are paid to vote for and definitely they won't remove themself from the trough. There is no single reason to do that. It is all about money, nothing else.

[h90]

The elected democratic government will amend the charter in stages, in keeping with the "Constitution Court" ruling.

A well planned strategy that will marginalise the terrorist fringe groups.

elected due to vote buying is not democratic elected.

and how should it marginalise the red terrorists?

[Nickymaster]

http://www.thetimes....icle3585786.ece

http://www.guardian....efeat-eu-budget

Would/could something like this ever happen in DEMOCRATIC Thailand?

In Thailand you get expelled from the party if you don't vote for your leader.

"We want democracy..Yeahhh"

Edited November 2, 2012 by Nickymaster

[rixalex]

Well, yes, westerners from democracies understand that everyone has the right to express their opinion and to be involved. It's when those westerners express the opinion in support of military coups to remove the democratically elected Thai government that things start sounding idiotic.

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What is idiotic is someone who supports Thaksin and the reds, lecturing someone else, anyone else, about the importance of democracy.

[Roadman]

Well, yes, westerners from democracies understand that everyone has the right to express their opinion and to be involved. It's when those westerners express the opinion in support of military coups to remove the democratically elected Thai government that things start sounding idiotic.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

What is idiotic is someone who supports Thaksin and the reds, lecturing someone else, anyone else, about the importance of democracy.

Classic isn't it....Thaksin and democracy

[smutcakes]

Well, yes, westerners from democracies understand that everyone has the right to express their opinion and to be involved. It's when those westerners express the opinion in support of military coups to remove the democratically elected Thai government that things start sounding idiotic.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

What is idiotic is someone who supports Thaksin and the reds, lecturing someone else, anyone else, about the importance of democracy.

Just because someone does not like the idea of a coup does not automatically make them a Thaksin or red supporter. I can see all the crap which this Government is doing, but having a coup will not solve the problem - it fact it will probably make it worse.

[rixalex]

Just because someone does not like the idea of a coup does not automatically make them a Thaksin or red supporter.

Didn't say it did. And likewise, being anti red / anti Thaksin, does not automatically make someone pro coup.

[h90]

Well, yes, westerners from democracies understand that everyone has the right to express their opinion and to be involved. It's when those westerners express the opinion in support of military coups to remove the democratically elected Thai government that things start sounding idiotic.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

What is idiotic is someone who supports Thaksin and the reds, lecturing someone else, anyone else, about the importance of democracy.

Just because someone does not like the idea of a coup does not automatically make them a Thaksin or red supporter. I can see all the crap which this Government is doing, but having a coup will not solve the problem - it fact it will probably make it worse.

All the coup supporter, support it for 2 reasons:

1) They don't see any other way to restore democracy and get rid of the worst corruption (I think no one would complain at the usual 10 % corruption)

2) They don't believe that any military government could be worse than this Thaksin government.

And actually the last coup supports this ideas. It was the cleanest and best government since 10 years. Just their reforms were too weak to make an impact. A complete reorganization of the police, courts and structur of laws. But it was still the right way.

[smutcakes]

Well, yes, westerners from democracies understand that everyone has the right to express their opinion and to be involved. It's when those westerners express the opinion in support of military coups to remove the democratically elected Thai government that things start sounding idiotic.

Sent from my iPad using ThaiVisa app

What is idiotic is someone who supports Thaksin and the reds, lecturing someone else, anyone else, about the importance of democracy.

Just because someone does not like the idea of a coup does not automatically make them a Thaksin or red supporter. I can see all the crap which this Government is doing, but having a coup will not solve the problem - it fact it will probably make it worse.

All the coup supporter, support it for 2 reasons:

1) They don't see any other way to restore democracy and get rid of the worst corruption (I think no one would complain at the usual 10 % corruption)

2) They don't believe that any military government could be worse than this Thaksin government.

And actually the last coup supports this ideas. It was the cleanest and best government since 10 years. Just their reforms were too weak to make an impact. A complete reorganization of the police, courts and structur of laws. But it was still the right way.

Surely having a coup to restore democracy is an oxymoron

[h90]

Surely having a coup to restore democracy is an oxymoron

Why?

The same as the police is using force to stop violence....

But if you have any better idea to restore democracy, let me know.

[smutcakes]

Surely having a coup to restore democracy is an oxymoron

Why?

The same as the police is using force to stop violence....

But if you have any better idea to restore democracy, let me know.

My idea is for the government to be allowed to continue their term. If they are as bad as everyone says, then in 3 years time if the Dems or any other credible party put forward a viable alternative, then they will be voted out- and there can be no complaints. Having a coup will just push more people to Thaksin- and unless the plan is for the military to govern forever, eventually you will have to have elections, and Thaksin will be voted back in.

[Buchholz]

The elected democratic government will amend the charter in stages

When's the referendum on whether or not the populace want constitutional amendments in the first place?

.

[rixalex]

All the coup supporter, support it for 2 reasons:

1) They don't see any other way to restore democracy and get rid of the worst corruption (I think no one would complain at the usual 10 % corruption)

2) They don't believe that any military government could be worse than this Thaksin government.

And actually the last coup supports this ideas. It was the cleanest and best government since 10 years. Just their reforms were too weak to make an impact. A complete reorganization of the police, courts and structur of laws. But it was still the right way.

Whatever benefits there are to a coup, they are outweighed by the credibility and legitimacy that Thaksin inherits because of one. This is what most recently has given him traction. Fighting against anti-democratic people like Thaksin, is not done by using more anti-democratic methods, it's done by someone taking the democratic high ground, and the masses waking up and seeing that.

[h90]

All the coup supporter, support it for 2 reasons:

1) They don't see any other way to restore democracy and get rid of the worst corruption (I think no one would complain at the usual 10 % corruption)

2) They don't believe that any military government could be worse than this Thaksin government.

And actually the last coup supports this ideas. It was the cleanest and best government since 10 years. Just their reforms were too weak to make an impact. A complete reorganization of the police, courts and structur of laws. But it was still the right way.

Whatever benefits there are to a coup, they are outweighed by the credibility and legitimacy that Thaksin inherits because of one. This is what most recently has given him traction. Fighting against anti-democratic people like Thaksin, is not done by using more anti-democratic methods, it's done by someone taking the democratic high ground, and the masses waking up and seeing that.

I see your argument, it is valid. But it may need decades, see how long it needed in the Soviet block and all the countries around. Look at North Korea....sure at some point the regime will fall apart. And it might be in the long term better if it goes the normal way. But impatience people like me, just don't want to wait 3-5 generations with 10.000s or Millions of deads (I don't mean violence, I mean underfunding of hospitals, healthcare, work safety, food, because of a corrupt or stupid government). (No I am not sarcastic). I prefer the quick fix. Thailand had many coups, real democracy never developed but still the country developed better than many similar countries, for a long time it was ahead of all neighbors.

[rixalex]

All the coup supporter, support it for 2 reasons:

1) They don't see any other way to restore democracy and get rid of the worst corruption (I think no one would complain at the usual 10 % corruption)

2) They don't believe that any military government could be worse than this Thaksin government.

And actually the last coup supports this ideas. It was the cleanest and best government since 10 years. Just their reforms were too weak to make an impact. A complete reorganization of the police, courts and structur of laws. But it was still the right way.

Whatever benefits there are to a coup, they are outweighed by the credibility and legitimacy that Thaksin inherits because of one. This is what most recently has given him traction. Fighting against anti-democratic people like Thaksin, is not done by using more anti-democratic methods, it's done by someone taking the democratic high ground, and the masses waking up and seeing that.

I see your argument, it is valid. But it may need decades, see how long it needed in the Soviet block and all the countries around. Look at North Korea....sure at some point the regime will fall apart. And it might be in the long term better if it goes the normal way. But impatience people like me, just don't want to wait 3-5 generations with 10.000s or Millions of deads (I don't mean violence, I mean underfunding of hospitals, healthcare, work safety, food, because of a corrupt or stupid government). (No I am not sarcastic). I prefer the quick fix. Thailand had many coups, real democracy never developed but still the country developed better than many similar countries, for a long time it was ahead of all neighbors.

Yes you make a compelling argument too.

[Roadman]

Surely having a coup to restore democracy is an oxymoron

Why?

The same as the police is using force to stop violence....

But if you have any better idea to restore democracy, let me know.

My idea is for the government to be allowed to continue their term. If they are as bad as everyone says, then in 3 years time if the Dems or any other credible party put forward a viable alternative, then they will be voted out- and there can be no complaints. Having a coup will just push more people to Thaksin- and unless the plan is for the military to govern forever, eventually you will have to have elections, and Thaksin will be voted back in.

See thats where the problem lies. If Thaksin and his rabble continue to gain outright control over all aspects of Thailands governance, judicary and police and their checks and balances then do you really think that he will honour the very principle of democracy...an election, if he thinks he could lose. And that is when the Army moves in with no complaints from this quarter.

Take Thaksin out of the equation and most like minded people would allow the remaining cohorts to self destruct in hopefully the shortest time possible for the thai economy to not to be completely crippled by the Pheu Thai unabated corruption and stupidity. With Thaksin around there is no solution for the democratic benefit of Thailand. As long as he stays away the statue quo will eventuate with Pheu Thai continuing to flush Thailand down the toilet that they would be removed at the ballot box. Besides the response might not even be needed from the military. The Reds should be seeing by now that Thaksin is worst then what they were trying to change.

[h90]

All the coup supporter, support it for 2 reasons:

1) They don't see any other way to restore democracy and get rid of the worst corruption (I think no one would complain at the usual 10 % corruption)

2) They don't believe that any military government could be worse than this Thaksin government.

And actually the last coup supports this ideas. It was the cleanest and best government since 10 years. Just their reforms were too weak to make an impact. A complete reorganization of the police, courts and structur of laws. But it was still the right way.

Whatever benefits there are to a coup, they are outweighed by the credibility and legitimacy that Thaksin inherits because of one. This is what most recently has given him traction. Fighting against anti-democratic people like Thaksin, is not done by using more anti-democratic methods, it's done by someone taking the democratic high ground, and the masses waking up and seeing that.

I see your argument, it is valid. But it may need decades, see how long it needed in the Soviet block and all the countries around. Look at North Korea....sure at some point the regime will fall apart. And it might be in the long term better if it goes the normal way. But impatience people like me, just don't want to wait 3-5 generations with 10.000s or Millions of deads (I don't mean violence, I mean underfunding of hospitals, healthcare, work safety, food, because of a corrupt or stupid government). (No I am not sarcastic). I prefer the quick fix. Thailand had many coups, real democracy never developed but still the country developed better than many similar countries, for a long time it was ahead of all neighbors.

Yes you make a compelling argument too.

what happening it has also some big downsides.....