Atm - No Not The Atm As A Foreigner Giving Cash Away.

[TheVicar]

More on why AMEX is not "Free" as some here claim:

Amex paying $112M in late-fee settlements

By MARCY GORDON | Associated Press – Mon, Oct 1, 2012 12:09 PM EDT

WASHINGTON (AP) — American Express is paying $112 million in refunds and fines to settle regulators' accusations that it charged unlawful late fees and deceived customers to pressure them to pay off old debts or buy extra credit card services.

The company agreed to the settlements announced Monday by four federal agencies, including the Federal Reserve and the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, and Utah regulators.

American Express is refunding $85 million to about 250,000 customers and is paying $27.5 million in civil fines.

The agencies said American Express violated federal laws prohibiting deceptive practices by using false statements to get customers to settle old debts. The regulators say that included falsely telling customers that if they agreed to settlements to partially pay off their debts, the remaining balance would be forgiven.

The director of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, Richard Cordray, said in a statement that the company violated consumer-protection laws "at all stages of the game — from the moment a consumer shopped for a card to the moment the consumer got a phone call about long overdue debt."

American Express also charged late fees on some credit cards based on a percentage of the debt owed, a violation of a 2009 law prohibiting certain credit card practices, the regulators said.

They said customers were sometimes led to believe they would get $300 as well as bonus points if they signed up for Amex's "Blue Sky" credit card program. Customers who met the conditions didn't receive the promised $300, according to the agencies.

In addition, they said the company:

—Unlawfully discriminated against consumers applying for new card accounts on the basis of age.

—Failed to report customer disputes over billing to the consumer-credit reporting agencies.

New York-based American Express also agreed to end the practices and to hire independent auditors to ensure the company's compliance with consumer-protection laws.

Also reaching settlements with the company were the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. and the U.S. Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, a Treasury Department agency that regulates national banks.

NOTE BY THE VICAR: You can see why the banks so opposed the set up of this consumer unit, championed by Harvard Law School Prof. and now Senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts! As another poster wisely said above, if you think you are getting something "free' from the banks, you need your head examined.

Another trick that credit card issuers use is to charge customers a "foreign transaction fee"; that is, a fee for any transaction in a foreign country (like Thailand). Here are the fees charged by some banks for their plastic on such fees:

• Bank of America – 3% fee
  
• Barclaycard/Juniper – 3% fee
  
• Citi – 3% fee
  
• HSBC – 3% fee
  
• Wells Fargo – 3% fee
  
• Chase – 3% fee
  
• US Bank – 3% fee
  
• American Express – 2.7% fee (except for the Platinum Card which has no fee)
  
• Discover – 2% fee
  
• Capital One – no fee
  

SOURCE: http://creditcardforum.com/blog/american-express-foreign-transaction-fee/

[TheVicar]

Anybody who thinks they're getting "free" credit from a bank, needs a checkup from the neck up...

I use American Express. Payment due in full in 30 days. How is it costing me or anyone else anything? (Other than the annual membership fee I pay which includes countless 'privileges' as AMEX refers to them).

1. You ARE paying their annual membership fee (which as I recall is rather hefty; about $150 or so? and more depending on the kind of card you have; the Platinum fee is at least $450 and that isn't chicken feed ) and what are you getting in return but sham "awards" and "points"? I too had one of these cards, their platinum one as I recall, until I dumped it. They are also getting information about your buying habits and are likely making money off of you by selling information to various web sites and other sources. Look closely at their conditions and terms and you will see this.

2, It, and other credit cards, create inflation because of charges passed on, hidden charges and costs, and because customers who now feel empowered with their plastic, will buy things from merchants who charge higher prices just because those merchants also feature plastic. People on plastic are as hooked as people on caffeine.

Meanwhile, Wikipedia has some useful info on plastic:

When a consumer makes a purchase using a credit or charge card, a small portion of the price is paid as a fee (known as the merchant discount), with the merchant keeping the remainder. There are typically three parties who split this fee amongst themselves:

1. Acquiring bank: the bank which processes credit card transactions for a merchant, including crediting the merchant's account for the value charged to a credit card less all fees.
   
2. Issuing bank: the bank which issues the consumer's credit card. This is the bank a consumer is responsible for repaying after making a credit card purchase. The issuer's share of the merchant discount is known as the interchange fee.
   
3. Network: the link between acquiring banks and issuing banks. These banks have relationships with a network, rather than with each other, for fulfilling card purchases. This allows a card issued by a community bank in Peru to be used at a shop in South Africa, for instance, without requiring the banks to have a direct relationship with each other. The two largest networks in the world are Visa and MasterCard.
   

The average merchant discount in the United States is 1.9%. Of this, approximately 0.1% goes to the acquirer, 1.7% to the issuer, and 0.09% to the network.

*****

Lastly, Mr. Elektrified claims he pays his bills off every 30 days but I wonder if there have been occasions when he hasn't? If you don't, you pay a very hefty fee (something like 20% interest plus bogus "late" fees). This is why the banks really want people hooked on their plastic because they know a large percentage of people will eventually be forced into a situation where they cannot pay off their entire bill. It also happens with people on American Express. If you don't eventually pay all for AE, your credit rating will suffer. So they've got you.

NOTE: The Canadian fee for an AMEX Platinum recently increased to $699! Also, AMEX charges higher "merchant" fees than Visa.

Is this your personal observations/research? Or have you gotten this from a study/research somewhere?

MSPain

Where indicated above, I took information from Wikipedia (its article on American Express). It's easy to do research on this; just use Google. Wikipedia too is full of good info (as usual). Other links have been provided in subsequent posts. Most credit card users NEVER even read their "conditions of use" which are highly technical, written in fine print, and are very long!

I did get the AMEX fees wrong for the Green card: it seems to be $55, Gold card starts at $85, Platinum card is $450.

See: http://en.wikipedia....merican_Express

In 2005, US banks (NOT banks world-wide) issuing plastic made more than $30 billion on INTERBANK charges ALONE. Source: http://en.wikipedia....Interchange_fee

Edited November 8, 2012 by TheVicar

[bobl]

Some of your customers like sauce with their meal some do not. It adds to the cost. Do you send them across to the supermarket? Penny pinching like this spoils the satisfied feeling I get after a good meal.

Clearly you don't know much about the f&b industry. Provision of condiments ARE part of the "food cost" upon which the selling prices are based. Best not to nitpick when you don't know what you're talking about. This isn't penny pinching over whether somebody uses an extra spoon of sugar. This is, very simply, handing a significant chunk of your money over to a middle man.

Per my previous example, a 2.4% cut of your purchase price could easily represent 10% of the vendor's profit - the money he takes home. I doubt you'd be very happy if I turned up at your house and demanded 10% of your cash every month?

[hml367]

This was at the head of one of the Wikipedia articles:

This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (June 2012)

I would look further than Wikipedia for information myself. Wikipedia may be a good starting point.

I didn't find any reference to inflation in any of the links. I could have missed it.

My original question actually is in reference to inflation: I wanted to know if credit/debit cards (plastic) causing inflation was your observation or from any study or report you have seen?

MSPain

[hml367]

More on why AMEX is not "Free" as some here claim:

Amex paying $112M in late-fee settlements

By MARCY GORDON | Associated Press – Mon, Oct 1, 2012 12:09 PM EDT

WASHINGTON (AP) — American Express is paying $112 million in refunds and fines to settle regulators' accusations that it charged unlawful late fees and deceived customers to pressure them to pay off old debts or buy extra credit card services.

The company agreed to the settlements announced Monday by four federal agencies, including the Federal Reserve and the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, and Utah regulators.

American Express is refunding $85 million to about 250,000 customers and is paying $27.5 million in civil fines.

The agencies said American Express violated federal laws prohibiting deceptive practices by using false statements to get customers to settle old debts. The regulators say that included falsely telling customers that if they agreed to settlements to partially pay off their debts, the remaining balance would be forgiven.

The director of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, Richard Cordray, said in a statement that the company violated consumer-protection laws "at all stages of the game — from the moment a consumer shopped for a card to the moment the consumer got a phone call about long overdue debt."

American Express also charged late fees on some credit cards based on a percentage of the debt owed, a violation of a 2009 law prohibiting certain credit card practices, the regulators said.

They said customers were sometimes led to believe they would get $300 as well as bonus points if they signed up for Amex's "Blue Sky" credit card program. Customers who met the conditions didn't receive the promised $300, according to the agencies.

In addition, they said the company:

—Unlawfully discriminated against consumers applying for new card accounts on the basis of age.

—Failed to report customer disputes over billing to the consumer-credit reporting agencies.

New York-based American Express also agreed to end the practices and to hire independent auditors to ensure the company's compliance with consumer-protection laws.

Also reaching settlements with the company were the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. and the U.S. Office of the Comptroller of the Currency, a Treasury Department agency that regulates national banks.

NOTE BY THE VICAR: You can see why the banks so opposed the set up of this consumer unit, championed by Harvard Law School Prof. and now Senator Elizabeth Warren of Massachusetts! As another poster wisely said above, if you think you are getting something "free' from the banks, you need your head examined.

Another trick that credit card issuers use is to charge customers a "foreign transaction fee"; that is, a fee for any transaction in a foreign country (like Thailand). Here are the fees charged by some banks for their plastic on such fees:

• Bank of America – 3% fee
  
• Barclaycard/Juniper – 3% fee
  
• Citi – 3% fee
  
• HSBC – 3% fee
  
• Wells Fargo – 3% fee
  
• Chase – 3% fee
  
• US Bank – 3% fee
  
• American Express – 2.7% fee (except for the Platinum Card which has no fee)
  
• Discover – 2% fee
  
• Capital One – no fee
  

SOURCE: http://creditcardfor...ransaction-fee/

Most card issuers do charge probably. My financial institution does not charge a foreign transaction fee and I do not pay a currency conversion fee. My Visa credit card has no annual fee. I take money on my Visa credit card, either ATM or signature required, then transfer the amount online from a deposit account to my credit card account. As far as I can tell, no fees at all, since the transfer to the credit card account happens before the charge even hits my credit card account.

I cannot do this with my debit card. If I use my debit card, I have to pay a currency transaction fee. The debit card is Visa branded and issued by the same financial institution as my Visa branded credit card.

A person can find a financial product that is beneficial sometimes. Not every person or every financial institution is exactly the same.

MSPain

By the way, I do not use my credit card for much of anything other than online purchases. There are pitfalls other than those that have been discussed in this thread.

Edited November 8, 2012 by hml367

[TheVicar]

This was at the head of one of the Wikipedia articles:

This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (June 2012)

I would look further than Wikipedia for information myself. Wikipedia may be a good starting point.

I didn't find any reference to inflation in any of the links. I could have missed it.

My original question actually is in reference to inflation: I wanted to know if credit/debit cards (plastic) causing inflation was your observation or from any study or report you have seen?

MSPain

Fair enough (but your original quote didn't say you wanted to know whether credit/debit cards cause inflation). I'm not an economist and I suspect this is a very complex issue.

But if you use your computer and Google and yes, Wikipedia, you can learn a lot.

Take a look at this online article from Answers.com that looks at Factors Affecting Inflation (I have put emphasis on some):

Demand side factors:

1- Increase in nominal money supply: Increase in nominal money supply without corresponding increase in output increases the aggregate demand. The higher the money supply the higher will be the inflation.

2- Increase in disposable income: When the disposable income of the people increases, their demand for goods and services also increases.

3- Expansion of Credit: When there's expansion in credit beyond the safe limits, it creates increase in money supply, which causes the increased demand for goods and services in the economy. This phenomenon is also known as 'credit-induced inflation'.

4- Deficit Financing Policy: Deficit financing raises aggregate demand in relation to the aggregate supply. This phenomenon is known as 'deficit financing-induced inflation'.

5- Black money spending: People having black money spend money lavishly, which increases the demand un-necessarily, while supply remains unchanged and prices go up.

6- Repayment of Public Debts: When government repays the internal debts it increases the money supply which pushes the aggregate demand.

7- Expansion of the Private Sector: Private sector comes with huge capitals and creates employment opportunities, resulting in increased income which furthers the increase in demand for goods and services.

8- Increasing Public Expenditures: Non developmental expenditures of government lead to raise aggregate demand which results as increased demand for factors of production and then increased prices.

9-Credit purchase-Due to increase in credit cards people can puchase in credit which in result increases demand

10-Speculation-Speculation is also increase demand especially gold and share

http://wiki.answers....e_for_inflation

Or, if you use Google, you can find this article by two Yale economists which says that "The introduction (and widespread use) of credit cards increases trading efficiency but, by also increasing the velocity of money, it creates massive inflation, in the absence of monetary intervention." For far more detail (46 pages of it including higher math and very advanced econ), See http://cowles.econ.y...geanakoplos.pdf

So there are several ways in which credit cards usage (as indicated above) affects inflation. It should also be pretty obvious from the above fees for credit cards that "merchant fees" and "interbank" fees and the like are simply passed on to consumers in general. The interbank fees, as noted above in my post, generated $30 billion in 2005 for the USA alone; so this is not chicken feed.

Edited November 8, 2012 by TheVicar

[hml367]

Another side note: I have read the Visa International Operating Regulations, all 1,304 pages in the copy dated April, 2012, in addition to the disclosures from my financial institution.

MSPain

[trainman34014]

Yawn; I don't think one word of this is going to change the way any one of us prefers to pay. To each his own.

BTW; no Vicar has ever influenced my life one way or another but blimey, they do love to deliver Sermon's don't they ! LOL.

[hellodolly]

Who needs to use a credit card, who was the idiot who masterminded this concept of scamming people with high interest rates? Just get a debit and spend what you have!

If you have been following the thread there has only been the one business owner reply to the debit card and he says the banks charge him just as much as the credit card companies.

I would like to here from another businessman what his charges are. I pay a bill of over 10,000 baht a month with my Siam debit card with no penalty if I try to pay with a credit card he asks for 3% on top of it.

[MESmith]

Who needs to use a credit card, who was the idiot who masterminded this concept of scamming people with high interest rates? Just get a debit and spend what you have!

If you have been following the thread there has only been the one business owner reply to the debit card and he says the banks charge him just as much as the credit card companies.

I would like to here from another businessman what his charges are. I pay a bill of over 10,000 baht a month with my Siam debit card with no penalty if I try to pay with a credit card he asks for 3% on top of it.

My son's school wanted to charge me 3% to pay his school fees by k-bank debit card. They got the cash over a week later.

[bobl]

Who needs to use a credit card, who was the idiot who masterminded this concept of scamming people with high interest rates? Just get a debit and spend what you have!

If you have been following the thread there has only been the one business owner reply to the debit card and he says the banks charge him just as much as the credit card companies.

I would like to here from another businessman what his charges are. I pay a bill of over 10,000 baht a month with my Siam debit card with no penalty if I try to pay with a credit card he asks for 3% on top of it.

I think it would depend how the transaction's done? I've paid many bills at the ATM with either the barcode reader or manually typing the account details and it goes straight into the recipient's bank. They don't get charged anything but there's a transaction fee of 20 baht at my end. If it's being swiped through a pdq terminal, as in a retail outlet, it seems when it comes to card processing fees there's no distinction between a credit card and a debit card - or perhaps it depends on the issuing bank.

It's been an interesting thread but I'll bet Duke's wishing he'd kept quiet and simply had a round of price increases... :-)

[trainman34014]

Well; I took some visiting pals to The Dukes today for lunch. When the bill came I thought shall I upset the poor lad and pay by card? As I was in a good mood I paid cash so I hope the staff don't nick it .

Btw; the ribs are still up to the high standard that I have come to expect. As for the Pizza, well, I will eat what's left tonight in the usual way. One day when I grow up maybe I will actually finish one of those biggy's on the premises !

[metisdead]

A post has been removed as the quoted post had been altered by the act of replying within the quoted post:

30) Do not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes, added emoticons, or altered wording.

Learn to use the quote function when replying to certain parts of a post.

[onthedarkside]

two other posts removed.

A post has been removed as the quoted post had been altered by the act of replying within the quoted post:

30) Do not modify someone else's post in your quoted reply, either with font or color changes, added emoticons, or altered wording.

Learn to use the quote function when replying to certain parts of a post.

2 other posts removed to clean up the quotes.

[mcgriffith]

Well, this has been rather informative.

The original theme was the owner of the Duke's asking where he could procure an ATM machine to install on his premises.

No offence to any of the members who have posted, but it seems we are now discussing the:

1) indebtedness of the financially illiterate

2) the demon seed of the banking system exposed

3) whether a debit card is more moral than a credit card

4) bank fees are the prions that are eating our brains into the consistency of cottage cheese

5) the avariciousness of the SBE sector

I do see some little stand alone payment kiosks around town here and there, that allow local consumers to pay various bills, etc.- but they don't dispense cash, which is what Dave is looking for.

Unless someone can come up with a practical real world solution to the OP's request for a machine to process ATM/debit/credit cards on his premises....well....

[hellodolly]

Well, this has been rather informative.

The original theme was the owner of the Duke's asking where he could procure an ATM machine to install on his premises.

No offence to any of the members who have posted, but it seems we are now discussing the:

1) indebtedness of the financially illiterate

2) the demon seed of the banking system exposed

3) whether a debit card is more moral than a credit card

4) bank fees are the prions that are eating our brains into the consistency of cottage cheese

5) the avariciousness of the SBE sector

I do see some little stand alone payment kiosks around town here and there, that allow local consumers to pay various bills, etc.- but they don't dispense cash, which is what Dave is looking for.

Unless someone can come up with a practical real world solution to the OP's request for a machine to process ATM/debit/credit cards on his premises....well....

I must have missed the post about the morality of a debit card to a credit card.

But that is not why I am posting. I am posting because after over 100 posts I find three Moderators posting one after the other. Is that a record.

You could make that item number 6 on your list.

Personally I like bobi's post number 101 the best.But I will admit it has been educationally I never would have considered the same service charge to a business for a debit card as they charge for a credit card.

Also I was surprised at the number of people who pay their bill every month and think it dosen't cost them money.

[mesquite]

Also I was surprised at the number of people who pay their bill every month and think it dosen't cost them money.

Probably because it doesn't.

[WinnieTheKhwai]

Well, this has been rather informative.

The original theme was the owner of the Duke's asking where he could procure an ATM machine to install on his premises.

Unless someone can come up with a practical real world solution to the OP's request for a machine to process ATM/debit/credit cards on his premises....well....

I think I disagree. From the original post:

I want to get rid of credit cards and credit card fees. At The Duke's and The River Market Restaurant we have never passed the fees on to customers as is common here.

That established credit cards, credit card fees and common business practices as the topic. Plus it was an objectively incorrect statement that needed correcting, as you won't be able to find a single restaurant in town charging for credit card use. And it made it apparent that the OP didn't realize all the reasons why people might use credit cards; 'inability/inconvenience to find cash money in Chiang Mai' being a very minor one.

Keep in mind that the OP and his restaurant are almost universally liked here. So when someone or something we like expresses the intent of doing something risky or foolish then I think people should speak up, this being a forum and everything, established to express opinion and give advice. If it was a place I cared less about -and there are plenty- I'd just go 'whatever'.

If there is a poster later today saying he wants to go bungee jumping without a rope, please don't remove posts saying: "Dude.. don't." ( Have to stay on topic people! Where is a good jumping-without-rope spot near Chiang Mai? )

Edited November 9, 2012 by WinnieTheKhwai

[NancyL]

Since Hellodolly keeps asking for more than one input about merchant fees for debit vs. credit cards, I'll chime in with personal experience that's only semi-relevant. Dave was correct in his reply that the merchant fee is identical for a debit card and a credit card -- at least that was our experience in operating a small business in the U.S. that accepted both. When we ran a card thru the machine, we really had no clue if it was a debit or credit card. The act of processing was the same, as were the fees.

The only time I had a problem with accepting debit cards was when we accidentally double charged a customer with a debit card. I realized the error that evening when closing out the day's till, so I processed a refund. The next day a call from the customer and I said I had done a refund already. Two days later another call -- apparently his bank immediately deducted both charges from his account, but took it's sweet time (3 or 4 days) to refund the money into his bank account. He was upset with us, but I'd done everything properly, called our merchant service provider, emailed him proof that I'd processed the refund that evening, etc. With a credit card, it wouldn't have been as big a problem for the customer.

Edited November 9, 2012 by NancyL

[hml367]

If anyone wants to understand a little bit more about the fees being discussed, here is a link to a somewhat dated report. Not Wikipedia, but probably a fair representation at the time. http://blog.visa.com/wp-content/uploads/GAO-Report.pdf

MSPain

[hellodolly]

Well, this has been rather informative.

The original theme was the owner of the Duke's asking where he could procure an ATM machine to install on his premises.

Unless someone can come up with a practical real world solution to the OP's request for a machine to process ATM/debit/credit cards on his premises....well....

I think I disagree. From the original post:

I want to get rid of credit cards and credit card fees. At The Duke's and The River Market Restaurant we have never passed the fees on to customers as is common here.

That established credit cards, credit card fees and common business practices as the topic. Plus it was an objectively incorrect statement that needed correcting, as you won't be able to find a single restaurant in town charging for credit card use. And it made it apparent that the OP didn't realize all the reasons why people might use credit cards; 'inability/inconvenience to find cash money in Chiang Mai' being a very minor one.

Keep in mind that the OP and his restaurant are almost universally liked here. So when someone or something we like expresses the intent of doing something risky or foolish then I think people should speak up, this being a forum and everything, established to express opinion and give advice. If it was a place I cared less about -and there are plenty- I'd just go 'whatever'.

If there is a poster later today saying he wants to go bungee jumping without a rope, please don't remove posts saying: "Dude.. don't." ( Have to stay on topic people! Where is a good jumping-without-rope spot near Chiang Mai? )

And how do you know the restaurant has not already included the cost of the use in to the price on the menus?

An idea which Dave should incorporate. Problem being there Dave likes to be open about the cost of the meal. He then tells you how much he has to add for the VAT. I know many complain about that not being all ready included but at least He is open about it.

Thanks Nancy L for your professional input on the subject.

I come from Canada where a debit card is a debit card it is not a Credit Card also. Their is no choice in the matter. You use it and it is right out of the bank account you choose to take it from. It dosen't say Visa , Master Card or American express on it.

[harrry]

The problem with allowing credit cards is that there is a record on whic h tax has to be paid. Of course using them limits the ability for staff to give a free meal and pocket the money or declaring a lower amount for tax.

[bobl]

Also I was surprised at the number of people who pay their bill every month and think it dosen't cost them money.

Probably because it doesn't.

It's hard to tell if you're joking or blind.

Let me put it as simply as I possibly can. Your TV cost you $1,000. The retailer gets $976. The card issuer gets $24.

You THINK you have been given 30 days "free" credit. You have not. Your "free" credit has cost you $24, via the retailer.

Unless you believe that most retailers eat that $24 loss, in which case I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. Gotta hand it to the card issuers though, they've really done a number on making people believe it's free.

[hml367]

I have never done this, so I don't know. What happens if you pay for gasoline for your car with a credit/debit card? Is there a sur charge? Further off the original topic I know, yet relevant to the current direction it seems to have taken.

Mixing the original question and the current direction, it appears the original poster is or has been "eating" this fee. So using post #113, the person using the credit card and paying off in the grace period would have used that part free?

MSPain

Edited November 9, 2012 by hml367

[bobl]

I have never done this, so I don't know. What happens if you pay for gasoline for your car with a credit/debit card? Is there a sur charge? Further off the original topic I know, yet relevant to the current direction it seems to have taken.

The gas station's selling price probably already includes the cut they give to the clearing house. So if you're paying for gas with cash, chances are the gas station are making a little extra profit off you vs a card user. Unlike... (see below)

It appears the original poster is or has been "eating" this fee. So using post #113, the person using the credit card and paying off in the grace period would have used that part free?

Yes, he (op) has - so yes, being strictly pedantic you could say the card user got 'free' credit for himself (true only in the instance where the retailer hasn't increased his prices to cover card processing fees). I'm still hesitant to call anything 'free' as long as somebody's paying for it! Kinda gives the wrong impression.

That said, The Dukes is the exception, not the rule. Many (and an ever increasing number of) retailers do pass on the fee, in which case nobody gets off 'free'.

[Rancid]

Most card members haven't figured out that the milage they get is reabsorded and lost one way or another, addicted to debt. I used to have a restaurant, loved cash as well, easy to underdeclare earnings and pay less tax. You just buy a percentage of stuff for cash, not that is really a probelm in Thailand or likely your issue. Credit cards are a pain, pay fees, slow and have to declare earnings.

Perhaps you could consider a cash discount to thwart the frequent flyers. Ate at Dukes and very volumous even if pricey, tried the River Market but left before ordering due to issues that didn't satisfy. Went back to the more local friendly alternatives, not stirring just being honest.

[mesquite]

Also I was surprised at the number of people who pay their bill every month and think it dosen't cost them money.

Probably because it doesn't.

It's hard to tell if you're joking or blind.

Let me put it as simply as I possibly can. Your TV cost you $1,000. The retailer gets $976. The card issuer gets $24.

You THINK you have been given 30 days "free" credit. You have not. Your "free" credit has cost you $24, via the retailer.

Unless you believe that most retailers eat that $24 loss, in which case I have a bridge I'd like to sell you. Gotta hand it to the card issuers though, they've really done a number on making people believe it's free.

This holds only if there is a discount for cash. If not the price to the consumer is $1000 cash or credit card. You get the free 30 day credit if you use the cc. With cash, no 30 day grace period.

Edited November 9, 2012 by mesquite

[bobl]

This holds only if there is a discount for cash. If not the price to the consumer is $1000 cash or credit card. You get the free 30 day credit if you use the cc. With cash, no 30 day grace period.

[facepalm]

One more try before I give up.

The retailer needs $976 for the device. That's his cost, plus his desired margin. He ADDS ANOTHER $24 to the device, to cover his credit card charges - making it $1,000.

YOU PAY $1,000 - so YOU PAY $24 to the credit card company for your 'free' credit. I absolutely don't know how much clearer I can make it.

Forget about the cash customer. Whether he pays $1000 (retailer 'wins' $24) or gets a $24 discount (customer 'wins' $24) is immaterial to the argument - because either way, YOU still paid $24 extra.

Another way:-

Scenario 1

You (cc) and me (cash buyer). Both pay $1,000, for a $976 device. In your case, the extra $24 goes to the credit card company to cover your 'free' credit. In my case, the retailer makes an extra $24.

Scenario 2

You (cc) and me (cash buyer). You pay $1,000. I get a $24 discount and pay $976. In your case, the extra $24 goes to the credit card company to cover your 'free' credit. In my case, I get the device $24 cheaper.

So - there are 4 parties involved above (2 buyers, 1 retailer, 1 cc company), and 2 different scenarios depending whether the cash buyer gets discount or not. Let's look at the winners and losers.

Scenario 1

You lose. You pay extra $24

I lose. I pay extra $24

Credit card company wins. Makes $24

Retailer wins. Makes extra $24

Scenario 2

You lose. You pay extra $24

I Win. I get $24 discount

Credit card company wins. Makes $24

Retailer breaks even - gets $976 for both sales.

See who loses, both scenarios?

See who wins, both scenarios?

What the hell. I've already bored everybody to death so I might as well throw in scenario 3. Where the retailer DOES NOT add anything to cover credit card costs. So now, the device is back to just $976.

Scenario 3

You (cc) and me (cash buyer). We both pay $976.

You win - you get 30 days 'free' credit (except it isn't free, someone is paying for it)

I break even.

Credit card company wins. Makes $24

Retailer loses. Has to pay $24 to the credit card company to cover YOUR 'free' credit.

In all three scenarios, you, me and the retailer all have different fortune. You = 2 losses, 1 win. Me and retailer = 1 win, 1 loss, 1 even.

But OH! Look who 'wins' all three! The credit card companies. It's a multi $billion scamindustry. And that, my friend, is why they just love you to swipe and spend millions on marketing convincing people like you, that you're getting a 'free' 30 days credit.

[onthedarkside]

offensive reply removed.

[hellodolly]

This holds only if there is a discount for cash. If not the price to the consumer is $1000 cash or credit card. You get the free 30 day credit if you use the cc. With cash, no 30 day grace period.

[facepalm]

One more try before I give up.

The retailer needs $976 for the device. That's his cost, plus his desired margin. He ADDS ANOTHER $24 to the device, to cover his credit card charges - making it $1,000.

YOU PAY $1,000 - so YOU PAY $24 to the credit card company for your 'free' credit. I absolutely don't know how much clearer I can make it.

Forget about the cash customer. Whether he pays $1000 (retailer 'wins' $24) or gets a $24 discount (customer 'wins' $24) is immaterial to the argument - because either way, YOU still paid $24 extra.

Another way:-

Scenario 1

You (cc) and me (cash buyer). Both pay $1,000, for a $976 device. In your case, the extra $24 goes to the credit card company to cover your 'free' credit. In my case, the retailer makes an extra $24.

Scenario 2

You (cc) and me (cash buyer). You pay $1,000. I get a $24 discount and pay $976. In your case, the extra $24 goes to the credit card company to cover your 'free' credit. In my case, I get the device $24 cheaper.

So - there are 4 parties involved above (2 buyers, 1 retailer, 1 cc company), and 2 different scenarios depending whether the cash buyer gets discount or not. Let's look at the winners and losers.

Scenario 1

You lose. You pay extra $24

I lose. I pay extra $24

Credit card company wins. Makes $24

Retailer wins. Makes extra $24

Scenario 2

You lose. You pay extra $24

I Win. I get $24 discount

Credit card company wins. Makes $24

Retailer breaks even - gets $976 for both sales.

See who loses, both scenarios?

See who wins, both scenarios?

What the hell. I've already bored everybody to death so I might as well throw in scenario 3. Where the retailer DOES NOT add anything to cover credit card costs. So now, the device is back to just $976.

Scenario 3

You (cc) and me (cash buyer). We both pay $976.

You win - you get 30 days 'free' credit (except it isn't free, someone is paying for it)

I break even.

Credit card company wins. Makes $24

Retailer loses. Has to pay $24 to the credit card company to cover YOUR 'free' credit.

In all three scenarios, you, me and the retailer all have different fortune. You = 2 losses, 1 win. Me and retailer = 1 win, 1 loss, 1 even.

But OH! Look who 'wins' all three! The credit card companies. It's a multi $billion scamindustry. And that, my friend, is why they just love you to swipe and spend millions on marketing convincing people like you, that you're getting a 'free' 30 days credit.

You got it in1 scene

scenario 4 Dave gets an ATM and if you wish to use your credit card or debit card you use the machine and Dave looses no money dosen't have to charge more and you get to use your credit card and at the end of the month have a list of where you spent your money.

That would be a win win.