Helping Others

[robblok]

Someone said something why don't we try to help others in this forum. I think we do but there are only a few people who post here. Some might be intimidated by them or even me but i think we would help and give advice.

The problem with this is that most people want a magic pill or a do 10 minutes this a day and loose your weight. But the fact is that loosing weight will go slow and it will require sacrifices. There are no real shortcuts. (maybe a few but even those are not magic). People want the easy way, they want to hear they can still drink all the alcohol they want and eat what they like. Problem is for most people that is not the case just a few people who are more gifted gene wise then others is this the case and they dont need the advice anyway.

Also there is no such thing as a diet, because there is a reason you got fat in the first place that is what your eating and doing now. If you loose the weight and then go back to your old ways you will gain it all back. So it takes commitment and a will to change. Its not easy.

This is why if we help people we might look like extremists in our views, because we do believe in eating less and cutting out alcohol for a big part (i don't drink anymore).

But if anyone is really serious i would help them for sure, as long as they are willing to change a bit.

I don't expect people to go overboard like me working out 6-7 times a week and counting my calories. But it does help, i did loose 20 kg of fat and i am now more lean then ever. Soon i might even have one of those 6pacs you see advertised while i never had it. But so far it took me 10 months and of course i always lifted weights before so i had a good basis.

People do have to realize to make changes, but one other thing i learned in all my years of training is start slow. Don't go on a restricted diet and workout 5 times hard while you never did it. First off you will go crazy and your body wont like it. Build it up slow, make a few changes in your diet first. Cut out the alcohol first. As you loose more and more weight (but it will go slow at first you might loose a kg a week but later it will go a lot slower) you will have to adjust things more and more. But slowly you will feel you get more energy from the sports and look better and feel healthier.

Find a sport that you like, even if its not a big calorie burner because its better to keep doing something for a long time then do something you hate and quit it.

So anyone who wants some advice can come and ask here, i hope the other guys who post in this section will keep it clean and not too many personal attacks (i do them too most do i think can be fun a bit of heated argument).

[Kalbo]

There's a fella who I see at the gym a lot, he's rather large, with a big gut, and one day he asked me if I knew where to get a supplement or medication that would enable him to eat whatever he wanted but still enable him to lose weight. It made me giggle a bit.

[robblok]

I am aware of supplements that help, but none are that good. Without controlling what you eat you will never be lean. I wish had known more about that when i was younger. With the knowledge of now... wow.

[tropo]

I am aware of supplements that help, but none are that good. Without controlling what you eat you will never be lean. I wish had known more about that when i was younger. With the knowledge of now... wow.

LOL, you're still young.

[robblok]

I am aware of supplements that help, but none are that good. Without controlling what you eat you will never be lean. I wish had known more about that when i was younger. With the knowledge of now... wow.

LOL, you're still young.

True, but you know what i mean. If i had the knowledge i have now back at 18 when i started training. Results would have been different.

[tropo]

I am aware of supplements that help, but none are that good. Without controlling what you eat you will never be lean. I wish had known more about that when i was younger. With the knowledge of now... wow.

LOL, you're still young.

True, but you know what i mean. If i had the knowledge i have now back at 18 when i started training. Results would have been different.

Yeah, I know what you mean, but thinking like that where do you stop? If I didn't have a serious motorcycle smash at age 23 I'd be way ahead now - probably. I can feel the repercussions in nearly every part of my body.

Just be thankful you did learn how to train. Maybe if you knew this stuff when you were 18 you wouldn't have the drive to succeed you have now. Doing it tough made you tough. I've seen quite a few genetically gifted guys in gyms over the years who were too lazy to make use of their superior genes.

[robblok]

I am aware of supplements that help, but none are that good. Without controlling what you eat you will never be lean. I wish had known more about that when i was younger. With the knowledge of now... wow.

LOL, you're still young.

True, but you know what i mean. If i had the knowledge i have now back at 18 when i started training. Results would have been different.

Yeah, I know what you mean, but thinking like that where do you stop? If I didn't have a serious motorcycle smash at age 23 I'd be way ahead now - probably. I can feel the repercussions in nearly every part of my body.

Just be thankful you did learn how to train. Maybe if you knew this stuff when you were 18 you wouldn't have the drive to succeed you have now. Doing it tough made you tough. I've seen quite a few genetically gifted guys in gyms over the years who were too lazy to make use of their superior genes.

Yea you are right of course Tropo. Its like crying over spilled milk. Just think there is so much difference between what i now know and back then.

I learned alot, i think we all do. But not everything what works for us works for others. Still if someone needs advice ill help.

[tropo]

Yea you are right of course Tropo. Its like crying over spilled milk. Just think there is so much difference between what i now know and back then.

I learned alot, i think we all do. But not everything what works for us works for others. Still if someone needs advice ill help.

Looking from where I'm sitting, I wish I knew what I know now at your age.

[ray35ty]

hi why dont u show us some before and after pics. thanku

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[robblok]

Why would i do that on a forum like this. Not interested in doing that. I like to keep some form of privacy here.

Plus that there are no actual before pictures of me posing. After pictures i could make but what is the point of that plus im not good at posing at all.

So i wont sorry.

[tropo]

Why would i do that on a forum like this. Not interested in doing that. I like to keep some form of privacy here.

Plus that there are no actual before pictures of me posing. After pictures i could make but what is the point of that plus im not good at posing at all.

So i wont sorry.

Yeah, and how many before and after pics have you seen where they use crappy lighting and photos for the before shots to make you think there's been amazing progress.

[ray35ty]

Back, And Traps

Can you help me build these two areas? Actually i wouldnt mind getting any advice or tips.

For back I do the bent over row. Aka dorian Yates style 4 sets of 8 to 12

Then I follow up with tbar row Ronnie Coleman style 4 sets of 8 to 12. Do you recommend doing the tbar row at tony;s sports world. Manypeople have said it causes to much stress on the back it is at a weird angle.

Then I try to do pull downs and some more one arm dumbbell row.

For traps I just do trap machine at Tony’s sports world and also now I superset with upright row.

I was doing dead also like this

If you watch this video say if you don’t bring the barbell all the way down just to your crotch area and going up again will that work the back.

[tropo]

I've given up all those unsupported rowing movements. There's just too much risk of wrecking your back with minimal benefit to the upper back region because nearly everyone starts to swing the body when the weights get higher therefore taking the stress off the target muscles and putting it directly on the lumbar spine. Besides that problem, check out the position of rowing movements. It's all done perpendicular to the spine. Most people do these movements with a very small range of motion. IMO worthless.

I need to use between 200 and 300 lbs on all rowing movements, which is pure insanity as far as back safety is concerned. Even if you're not using this much weight, sooner or later you will need to as the back is a strong muscle group. I see a lot of people doing one-arm rows with 60's - 80's. This is ridiculously low weight for back work and won't build anything for anyone other than a rank beginner.

If you want to build your lower back strength, stick to full deadlifts done in good form. They're hard to beat for lower back strength and a lot safer than rowing movements. If you want to build upper back thickness, the typical goal for rowing movements, use the many great supported machines you'll find in Tony's. Sport's World has some of the best supported rowing machines I've ever used. They also have a ground based Hammer Strength machine which is fantastic for building upper back, rowing strength.

Upright rows with a barbell is one of the worst exercises ever invented. Check out the angle of your wrists next time you are doing them. Be kind to your wrists and give them up. There's a much better option. Use a rope on a low pulley, which allows you to keep your wrists in a straight position as you raise your elbows.

You may be able to get away without any injuries if you're not lifting much weight, but as you get stronger the risk becomes greater.

Edited November 22, 2012 by tropo

[robblok]

Ill go with tropo on this one. Myself i do deadlifts and pullups and pull downs. Some one arm rows and that is. I do some t bar rows too at times but nothing that goes to heavy.

[tropo]

Ill go with tropo on this one. Myself i do deadlifts and pullups and pull downs. Some one arm rows and that is. I do some t bar rows too at times but nothing that goes to heavy.

That's interesting that you've come to the same conclusion after many years in the pit. I'll still do one arm rows too from time to time because it is supported (by the opposite arm).

[robblok]

Ill go with tropo on this one. Myself i do deadlifts and pullups and pull downs. Some one arm rows and that is. I do some t bar rows too at times but nothing that goes to heavy.

That's interesting that you've come to the same conclusion after many years in the pit. I'll still do one arm rows too from time to time because it is supported (by the opposite arm).

Its just logical as your muscles for rows are not the weakest point. Your spine / lower back is.

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[tropo]

Ill go with tropo on this one. Myself i do deadlifts and pullups and pull downs. Some one arm rows and that is. I do some t bar rows too at times but nothing that goes to heavy.

That's interesting that you've come to the same conclusion after many years in the pit. I'll still do one arm rows too from time to time because it is supported (by the opposite arm).

Its just logical as your muscles for rows are not the weakest point. Your spine / lower back is.

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... yet cable rows, which are a variation of bent-over rows or t-bar rows remain one of the most popular exercises in the gym. Over the years, every time I went back to this exercise an injury was sure to follow... and if not an injury a near injury where you can feel something bad going on in the lower back. I has taken quite a while to learn from my mistakes.

[robblok]

I havent done those in ages as my equipment is not perfect for it. But i can if i wanted to. But Tropo in cable rows do you get much tension on the spine too. I can understand it with a t bar row as your bend over ect. But your sitting with cable rows.

[tropo]

I havent done those in ages as my equipment is not perfect for it. But i can if i wanted to. But Tropo in cable rows do you get much tension on the spine too. I can understand it with a t bar row as your bend over ect. But your sitting with cable rows.

Absolutely. I'm using about 250 lbs + on my last sets. The spine has to support that load while I'm working my upper back. The load is basically trying to pull the discs sideways. The stricter you do it the more perpendicular the stress load is to your vertical spine. I would say they're worse than bent over rows because most people don't do bent over rows in a full bent over position because it tends to be awkward.... perhaps at 45 degrees rather than 90 degrees. It's a bit safer for the spine but IMO useless for stimulating growth. I see so many people doing these movements and barely moving the bar 3 or 4 inches. Even if you do them in good form you tend to get tired from holding your back in position and stop before you've adequately worked the target muscles. I also believe that they bulk up the waist. I did them heavy for a couple of years without a belt and I'm sure it was responsible for adding inches to my waist.

I think the problem is that so many novices are watching Ronnie Coleman, Jay Cutler, Dorian Yates et al moving superhuman poundages on these exercises on YouTube and trying to emulate them. I believe most of what you see these guys do on YouTube is for show - a good photo opportunity.

One are rows are a far safer option, but the biggest DB's my gym has are 135lbs, which I can knock out 12 reps on so I can't progress. You need progression on such strong muscle groups to see some growth.

Edited November 24, 2012 by tropo

[ray35ty]

ok tropo someone told me to have protein osolate with dextrose after training. now i ve been told this is bad as your natural growth hormone is elevated after workout and this shut it down causing a ruth of insulin. ?

[robblok]

What you are saying i read somewhere too. Personally i would not worry too much about those small things if everything else is in order. The logic for using dextrose with protein powder is to have the insulin deliver the proteins as fast as possible to the muscles.

I never take dextrose with my proteins, i just figure i consume enough during the day there is always a steady supply of proteins. I also try to keep my carbs down (so i would not take dextrose as it would surely spike my insulin)

[ray35ty]

thanks for the reply. ok i will just have the isolate protein after workout. also do u eat clean all the time and before bed. i find it hard to stop eating two hours before bed.

[robblok]

I eat clean almost all of the time, and i stop eating around 3-4 hours before i go to bed. I just eat 3 meals, the 6 meals a day have been debunked plus its not practical for me.

I think if your diet is good and your training is too, then those small changes won't do that much anymore. It does not hurt to work on them though but don't over think it all.

[Orac]

^ I think the idea is that the dextrose will trigger a large insulin response which, immediately after a workout, will help with protein delivery as per Rob's post above and also suppress production of the catabolic hormone cortisol. There is some research I read somewhere, though not sure how technical/broscience, that suggested a post workout shake of 4:1 carb/protein followed by a full protein shake 2 hours afterwards.

[robblok]

There are many theories about stuff, i often wonder how much it differs from not doing it if you already have enough protein.. wil it be 5%.. 10% or 1% more muscle mass or less fat. Its so hard to know and it might become obsessive. I had a hard time letting go of my food program when i was on a holiday this month. Good thing i brought some bathroom scales and saw that i did not gain weight, even lost a bit.

For me it means going things good most of the time and not worrying too much if i can't for some reason. But even in a restaurant i do strive to make the healthy choice.

[Orac]

I would agree. I tried the carb/protein post workout drink for a month last year and didn't feel any particular benefit however what it did do was interfere with my food plan and eat into the calories available for 'real' food. Since my calorie counting for the year worked well with a 20kg loss I went back to what was working with just a protein shake after the gym.

[robblok]

I would agree. I tried the carb/protein post workout drink for a month last year and didn't feel any particular benefit however what it did do was interfere with my food plan and eat into the calories available for 'real' food. Since my calorie counting for the year worked well with a 20kg loss I went back to what was working with just a protein shake after the gym.

Same here calorie counting made me loose 23+ kg, i would not advise it to anyone except dedicated people as it can be boring. But for me its not that bad as i cook all my own food and eat much of the same.

[tropo]

I would agree. I tried the carb/protein post workout drink for a month last year and didn't feel any particular benefit however what it did do was interfere with my food plan and eat into the calories available for 'real' food. Since my calorie counting for the year worked well with a 20kg loss I went back to what was working with just a protein shake after the gym.

I don't know how hard you train, but a post workout carb hit would be beneficial if you train intensely and deplete your muscles. The way most of the guys I see down at the gym train it wouldn't help at all because they don't hard enough to deplete their muscle glycogen.

If you're not training hard, don't worry about the post workout carbs - they'll just end up making you fatter if they're not going straight to depleted muscles.

[Kalbo]

I would agree. I tried the carb/protein post workout drink for a month last year and didn't feel any particular benefit however what it did do was interfere with my food plan and eat into the calories available for 'real' food. Since my calorie counting for the year worked well with a 20kg loss I went back to what was working with just a protein shake after the gym.

I don't know how hard you train, but a post workout carb hit would be beneficial if you train intensely and deplete your muscles. The way most of the guys I see down at the gym train it wouldn't help at all because they don't hard enough to deplete their muscle glycogen.

If you're not training hard, don't worry about the post workout carbs - they'll just end up making you fatter if they're not going straight to depleted muscles.

I agree 100% with what you've stated, but this brings me onto a further question. How 'hard' would someone have to train in order to deplete their muscle glycogen ? Also, would lighter training over a longer period of time have the same result as more intense training over a shorter period of time ?

[tropo]

I would agree. I tried the carb/protein post workout drink for a month last year and didn't feel any particular benefit however what it did do was interfere with my food plan and eat into the calories available for 'real' food. Since my calorie counting for the year worked well with a 20kg loss I went back to what was working with just a protein shake after the gym.

I don't know how hard you train, but a post workout carb hit would be beneficial if you train intensely and deplete your muscles. The way most of the guys I see down at the gym train it wouldn't help at all because they don't hard enough to deplete their muscle glycogen.

If you're not training hard, don't worry about the post workout carbs - they'll just end up making you fatter if they're not going straight to depleted muscles.

I agree 100% with what you've stated, but this brings me onto a further question. How 'hard' would someone have to train in order to deplete their muscle glycogen ? Also, would lighter training over a longer period of time have the same result as more intense training over a shorter period of time ?

Hard for me is around 1.5 hours with 30 - 60 seconds rest between sets and most sets apart from warmup sets to or near failure with lots of compound movements included. Heavier compound movements will require 90 to 120 seconds rest between sets.

I decide on how many carbs I can handle by testing blood sugar after the meal.

You'll know when the muscles are depleted. They get that "fried" feeling. I would say that longer, lighter training would be more like cardio training.

Edited February 1, 2013 by tropo