Real Italian Sub. In Bangkok Or Pattaya?

[Awohalitsiktoli]

Maybe trivial, but in all the years I have lived in Thailand (long time), I have never found a decent Italian sub. like, say, what you can easily find in NYC or Chicago, among other places.

No, I am not talking about what is served at Subway and similar places, I am talking about the real thing. And while I am at it, what about a real version of a Philly Cheese Steak sandwich, and a decent hamburger.......all virtually impossible to find, IMHO.

So:

Italian sub.

Philly Cheese steak

Hamburger

Where?

[Jingthing]

I think there is nothing in Pattaya that would come close to excellent examples of those in the U.S.

I haven't tried but you might want to try the subs from New York Pizza House. I reckon they would probably be at least OK based on my experience of their pizzas and ponzones. Limited choices: meatball, chicken parm, sausage parm. I reckon you seek more of a deli meat Italian sub.

Rich Man Poor Man Jomtien has a variety of Northeast American style specialties. I think they have steak and cheese.

One thing I would love is a good Chicago style Italian beef sandwich. However, I've never had one that was decent outside of Chicago!

Edited November 9, 2012 by Jingthing

[Ulysses G.]

There is very little Western food here that is as good as back home, but it is way better that it was when I first got here, so I am still thankful. It seems like you could make a good sub sandwich at home if you spent a lot on imported meats and cheeses.

[endure]

Don't mean to be rude but why would you expect a New York 'Italian sub' in Pattaya?

[Awohalitsiktoli]

Not rude. Let me ask you a question. Why would you expect Starbucks Coffee in Thailand that is like Starbucks Coffee in the USA? I think you got my point. Quality sells. To Jingting, here are a couple of pics of what I am looking for. Also, as an aside, I ate at Bei Otto today in Bangkok (1 Soi 20 Sukhumvit Road). Great German food. But walking down the street neat the Windsor Hotel and Spitzios Pizza, I saw a new place that looks like a typical Thai street vendor place, that sells smoked American BBQ. It was closed when I was there, but if it is good, we really should give it our business. If anybody has tried it, please let me know.

[Jingthing]

I'm very well familiar with the best in Philly cheesesteaks and American style Italian submarine sandwiches. I think we won't find that here. Abandon all hope.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

"Abandon all hope" could be interpreted as: "This is a niche that could make MONEY."

[Jingthing]

"Abandon all hope" could be interpreted as: "This is a niche that could make MONEY."

Yes perhaps. The food costs on the subs would force the price to be much more than Subways type places so I can hear the whining now. I think the cheesesteaks could be done for a friendly enough price though.

[Awohalitsiktoli]

Yes, the subs would have to be more expensive, but a casual stroll around Paragon Mall tells me that many Thais and farangs could afford it and likely would pay for higher quality sandwiches, if somebody would just make them. The Philly could be done, but "beef" in Thailand is a major problem. Unless the fat content (marbeling) is right, the beef comes out very dry and irregardless, Thai beef always smells funny to me, like the backside of a buffalo. The good news, I think, is that better quality beef is starting to surface in Thailand, but the cost now is way over the top. It needs to be locally produced from properly fed cattle hybrids. At any rate, there is a niche to be filled. There was a guy in Jomtien that was making the best corned beef/Reuben sandwiches in Thailand. I am not sure what happened to his place (Deli-zzzza?). As an aside, I am really wanting to try that new BBQ place I just saw right next to Bei Otto, in Bangkok. Has anybody eaten there? I think it probably is only open at night.

[lomatopo]

Mmm, Italian Beef, double-dipped: http://www.yelp.com/biz/brennan-and-carr-brooklyn-2

Even better: Pit beef at Chaps in Charm City: http://www.chapspitbeef.com/

But walking down the street neat the Windsor Hotel and Spitzios Pizza, I saw a new place that looks like a typical Thai street vendor place, that sells smoked American BBQ.

Is that place on Sukhumvit Soi 20?

BTW, what do you mean exactly by an "real Italian sub"?

For me, a "large Italian with everything including hots" would be a cold sub with capicola, salami, provolone, shredded lettuce, tomato, oil & vinegar, salt & pepper and pickled hot peppers.

Most decent sub places do hundreds of covers through lunch and dinner, I doubt you could find that market in Thailand? Hot sausage parm sub for me, made with home-made Italian sausage. Just waiting until my next trip in December. Mmmm.

Edited November 11, 2012 by lomatopo

[Awohalitsiktoli]

See post #5 for pics of an "Italian sub." I have never found anything like it in Thailand (yes, there are inexpensive sort of like sandwiches that are not bad for the buck, but I am talking about something of much higher quality). I think there is a large, untapped market for authentic Italian-style subs and Philly cheese steak sandwiches, and smoked BBQ. The BBQ place is at the following location (or near it): 1 Soi 20 Sukhumvit Road, Bangkok. This is actually the address of Bei Otto. The new BBQ place is right next to it, in a small, outdoor, Thai-style food stand. I typically get off on Asoke station, and walk to this area. The Windsor Hotel is also near it. If you try it, please let us know how it is. I suspect the pork products (pulled pork and ribs and sausage) are ok given the quality of pork in Thailand, but the beef brisket might be another matter Seriously, if this place is good we need to support it because this type of food is extremely hard to find.

[lomatopo]

I think there is a large, untapped market for authentic Italian-style subs and Philly cheese steak sandwiches, and smoked BBQ.

Can you share your thinking on this? What do you consider to be a large market? Can you address that with a single location? How many menu items? Price-points? Take-out, sit-down?

I can't see much potential for what I could consider a traditional sub place here, just not enough foreigners who might even know what these are, and Thais? Meh. They already have hundreds of upscale Asian and foreign options now. You'd have to spend years "educating" the market?

But maybe you know something we don't?

[kebabbaro]

Not surprising that you can't find what you're looking for in Pattaya. I mean, you won't even find that in Italy!

[Jingthing]

Subway sells very dumbed down versions of the basic concept which is an Italian-American sandwich developed by Italian-American immigrants in the Northeastern U.S. (I for one won't touch Subway here or in the US and it's better in the US but would love the REAL thing.) So marketing it in Thailand could probably be done because there is an existing MASS market for Subway type sandwiches among expats, tourists, and Thais. The marketing could be about how much better these sandwiches are in every way, higher class of course, higher status, and find a way to give the public a free taste to prove it. Like the Starbucks of Subway with Subway being 7-11 instant coffee, sorry Starbucks haters. Would it work? I don't know. Obviously a much smaller niche than Subway, maybe one shop or one shop per expat city.

Quite cynically, maybe the people who could make it work the best in Thailand would be the Subway people. Create a premium brand of shops. Just a (kind of sick) idea.

Edited November 11, 2012 by Jingthing

[smokie36]

To me this is lunchtime fare. Look at the average office in Bangkok, deciding what to order out for lunch, how many of the staff will be willing to pay say, 300 Baht for lunch?

A place like this cannot survive on expat business, which is why I think its a non starter. I hope someone proves me wrong though!

[Jingthing]

To me this is lunchtime fare. Look at the average office in Bangkok, deciding what to order out for lunch, how many of the staff will be willing to pay say, 300 Baht for lunch?

A place like this cannot survive on expat business, which is why I think its a non starter. I hope someone proves me wrong though!

Fair enough. I really don't know if there is a market big enough here and I also don't know that you'd need to charge as much as 300 baht. Of course in the U.S. such sandwiches, even the best versions, are definitely mass market people's food, nothing hiso about it. A distinctive New Orleans version, Po' Boys, means POOR boys! In the U.S. anyway, such foods are not only eaten at lunch. Later night is also popular.

Seafood based Po' Boys may have even more potential in Thailand. Featuring fillings like fried shrimp , oysters, soft shell crab, or catfish with a spicy remoulade sauce (or just mayo / mayo plus creole mustard / just creole mustard), what's not to love?!? Could probably do them cheaper than Italian deli meat subs because seafood is cheap here.

If it was my money to invest, I would take the risk on the Po' Boy seafood concept vs. the higher end deli meat submarine concept.

Of course for any of these concepts, the BREAD has to be good.

Edited November 11, 2012 by Jingthing

[bonobo]

I make two subs on a regular basis: Italian and meatball.

For the meatball, I make the meatballs and sauce, then freeze them for easy use.

For the italian, I bring in Italian salamis/capicola from Europe or their Canadian counterparts when I am in the USA (just brought back a nice alpina salami--$55, and that will last me at least 6 months.)

I usually bring in some nice Spanish ham as well, and a serrano/artichoke sub is heavenly. I am unfortunately out of the ham right now.

For the bread, I either use the bread at Villa Market, the baguettes that you have to finish cooking, or from St Etoile, their baguettes.

After work and the gym, I am often not in the mood to cook something very complicated, so subs make a great and easy meal, especially with a fruit smoothie. And to be honest, either one I make is better than anything I have found here in Thailand.

[lomatopo]

For the meatball, I make the meatballs and sauce, then freeze them for easy use.

I usually make a big batch of meatballs and sauce every few weeks, and portion/freeze. There are some great breads at Central World market for meatball parm subs: baguettes and ciabatta. So easy, so good.

Maybe a place modeled on Panera, with a bakery and cafe with sandwiches would do OK in a few select upscale malls here?

Here are the current prices at my neighborhood pizza/sub place, they've usually got 30 or so big lunch orders getting picked up in any 15 minute span around lunch time.

COLD SUBMARINES: 1 Foot Sub Rolls

$6.99North Ender Sub

Prosciutto, sweet capicola, pepperoni, mortadella, salami, and provolone cheese.

$6.49American Sub

Baked ham, smoked turkey, and American cheese.

$6.69Italian Cold Cuts Sub

Salami, sweet capicolla, provolone, mortadella, and pepperoni.

HOT SUBMARINES: 1 Foot Sub Rolls

$6.49Steak and Cheese Hot Sub

Extra lean steak.

$6.99Steak Bomb Hot Sub

Onions, pepper, mushrooms, and American cheese.

$6.99Steak Mafiosa Hot Sub

Pepperoni, tomato sauce, and American cheese.

$6.49Grilled Chicken Pesto Hot Sub

Fresh Mozzarella,tomatoes,fresh basil,shredded parmesan,pesto sauce & seasoning.

$6.99Stir Fry Chicken Hot Sub

Grilled chicken,onions,peppers,mushrooms & tomatoes.

$6.49Chicken Parmigiana Hot Sub

Marinara sauce,provolone & romano cheese.

$6.49Meatball Parmigiana Hot Sub

Marinara sauce,provolone & romano cheese.

$7.49Veal Cutlet Parmigiana Hot Sub (Real Veal)

Marinara sauce,provolone & romano cheese.

$6.99Eggplant Parmigiana Hot Sub (Baked)

Marinara sauce,romano cheese & melted mozzarella cheese.

$6.49Sausage Pepper & Onion Hot Sub

Grilled marinated chicken, onions, peppers, mushrooms, and tomato. Served on a one foot sub roll.

Edited November 11, 2012 by lomatopo

[Jingthing]

As said before, New York Pizza House in Pattaya does four kinds of hot subs and people have commented that they are good (I haven't tried as yet because I order ponzone or pizza instead):

http://www.nypizzahouse.com/

Meatball Sub

Italian Sausage Sub

Chicken Parm Sub

Also, Chicken Wing sub but I wouldn't recommend that based on trying their chicken wings.

Edited November 11, 2012 by Jingthing

[Awohalitsiktoli]

For the meatball, I make the meatballs and sauce, then freeze them for easy use.

I usually make a big batch of meatballs and sauce every few weeks, and portion/freeze. There are some great breads at Central World market for meatball parm subs: baguettes and ciabatta. So easy, so good.

Maybe a place modeled on Panera, with a bakery and cafe with sandwiches would do OK in a few select upscale malls here?

Here are the current prices at my neighborhood pizza/sub place, they've usually got 30 or so big lunch orders getting picked up in any 15 minute span around lunch time.

COLD SUBMARINES: 1 Foot Sub Rolls

$6.99North Ender Sub

Prosciutto, sweet capicola, pepperoni, mortadella, salami, and provolone cheese.

$6.49American Sub

Baked ham, smoked turkey, and American cheese.

$6.69Italian Cold Cuts Sub

Salami, sweet capicolla, provolone, mortadella, and pepperoni.

HOT SUBMARINES: 1 Foot Sub Rolls

$6.49Steak and Cheese Hot Sub

Extra lean steak.

$6.99Steak Bomb Hot Sub

Onions, pepper, mushrooms, and American cheese.

$6.99Steak Mafiosa Hot Sub

Pepperoni, tomato sauce, and American cheese.

$6.49Grilled Chicken Pesto Hot Sub

Fresh Mozzarella,tomatoes,fresh basil,shredded parmesan,pesto sauce & seasoning.

$6.99Stir Fry Chicken Hot Sub

Grilled chicken,onions,peppers,mushrooms & tomatoes.

$6.49Chicken Parmigiana Hot Sub

Marinara sauce,provolone & romano cheese.

$6.49Meatball Parmigiana Hot Sub

Marinara sauce,provolone & romano cheese.

$7.49Veal Cutlet Parmigiana Hot Sub (Real Veal)

Marinara sauce,provolone & romano cheese.

$6.99Eggplant Parmigiana Hot Sub (Baked)

Marinara sauce,romano cheese & melted mozzarella cheese.

$6.49Sausage Pepper & Onion Hot Sub

Grilled marinated chicken, onions, peppers, mushrooms, and tomato. Served on a one foot sub roll.

Those sandwiches really look good and in Thai baht are not way over the top for the hi-so's and farangs who have good jobs. I would add that many farangs, even those that can, do not spend big money on food each day. It could be a once-a-week thing. If I wanted to I could eat at Sizzler's each day, but I don't (maybe cheap Cherokee). But I do eat there about once per week. I see many hi-so Thais who are expanding their food choices. Just walk around the Paragon Mall and see the prices and see who is buying! It is a bit Amazing Thailand to see this change. I remember talking with a Thai 12 years ago who told me that an upscale coffee shop would never work in Thailand because Thais would never spend big money on coffee. Well, he was wrong. I now see Thais eating at places I thought I would never see them eating at, like La Monita (Mexican food) and Sunrise Tacos (Mexican food). This are changing, so what I am hinting at is that the market would not be just farangs, it would likely include Thais.

[smokie36]

Good post.

I was thinking about La Monita when I posted my last comment and it seems to me JT has hit on an important point. Thais will pay 300 Baht for an evening meal so perhaps incorporating the Po' Boy idea and the lunchtime subs could be a winner.

I'd certainly visit if the food was as good as looks in the pics!

[lomatopo]

I remember talking with a Thai 12 years ago who told me that an upscale coffee shop would never work in Thailand because Thais would never spend big money on coffee. Well, he was wrong.

Was he? Maybe you and he just had different event horizons? It did take 12 years to "take off"?

I mean I saw a 39 million baht RR in Paragon, are a lot of Thais buying those? (Man, that thing is fugly.) I want a pony for my birthday, does that mean everyone does?

Po boys are OK, but who wants to eat fried food every day, other than me of course. Obviously fried seafood is a familiar part of the Thai diet but maybe not on bread, yet.

Now we seem to be morphing subs into once a week, hi-so night-time fare, when you really need volume, volume, volume. It's the same with BBQ, I'm gonna cook pork butts for 14 hours to sell three pulled pork sandwiches to the three Americans who happen to be familiar with it and stumble into the shop? Do tourists really come to Thailand to eat American subs and Po boys?

I still say a bakery, with a cafe and specialized sandwiches including Thai fusion sandwiches, based on the Panera concept, in a few of the upscale malls, might have a chance.

But even a typical sub place, like the one I frequent in the U.S. does at least 500 covers in a day, Mon - Fri., lunch and dinner. Can't see that volume here in any market/location.

[notmyself]

Anything involving beef, turkey or cheese is going to be an issue but pork, duck, chicken and seafood not.

[Jingthing]

Honestly I'm picturing a fantasy Po' Boy place more like a limited menu New Orleans casual cafe kind of thing. Featuring Po' Boys also some New Orleans greatest hits:

Jambalaya

Gumbo

Red beans and rice

Blackened Cajun fish

Shellfish Etouffee

No hamburgers. No BBQ ribs. No chicken wings. No steaks. No more than 15 total menu items including Po' Boy choices.

Yes it would need a real chef to launch it.

I don't know about Bangkok, but I think a concept like that would work in Pattaya, at lower prices than the New Orleans restaurant here, which is more of a fancy night out full menu concept.

Edited November 11, 2012 by Jingthing

[Litlos]

Off on a tangent, but anyone else tried http://www.lelapinbangkok.com/

Got onto this place while working in an office in BKK with a few other expat guys, delivered to office/home.. Yummy to me and became our standard Friday fare at lunch, but as I am Ozzie not sure how it would take on the USA taste buds. If it works good, no work, well then up to you just an idea to try and improve the gastronomical experience.

Cheers

[Jingthing]

Off on a tangent, but anyone else tried http://www.lelapinbangkok.com/

Got onto this place while working in an office in BKK with a few other expat guys, delivered to office/home.. Yummy to me and became our standard Friday fare at lunch, but as I am Ozzie not sure how it would take on the USA taste buds. If it works good, no work, well then up to you just an idea to try and improve the gastronomical experience.

Cheers

Americans like stuff that tastes good, just like everyone else ...

On the face of it that place looks like a mostly Euro baguette type place with some very creative twists? What's not to like?

Obviously, the American twists on sandwiches, submarines, Po' Boys, Vietnamese Banh Mi (not American but getting popular in the USA), etc. ALL have roots in Europe.

Edited November 11, 2012 by Jingthing

[Litlos]

Never been to sure on North American tastes in food after being exposed to "Chicken fried steak and <deleted> on the shingle". Once had an entertaining discussion on the merits of Roo (Roux?) with a Louisiana boy. He could not figure out why I would want to slow cook it in a weber for a few hours

I had to find that web address and look to check it was the same one. Damm and they close at 6PM, hungry now. Sorry for out of BKK residents only in the capital at the moment.

With a name like Le Lapin I would guess at a French origin, which explains the Indochina cuisine referenced above. Best thing the French ever did was educate people in the way of food. Worst thing they ever did was propagate driving on the wrong side of the road.

Cheers

[notmyself]

Honestly I'm picturing a fantasy Po' Boy place more like a limited menu New Orleans casual cafe kind of thing. Featuring Po' Boys also some New Orleans greatest hits:

Jambalaya

Gumbo

Red beans and rice

Blackened Cajun fish

Shellfish Etouffee

No hamburgers. No BBQ ribs. No chicken wings. No steaks. No more than 15 total menu items including Po' Boy choices.

Yes it would need a real chef to launch it.

I don't know about Bangkok, but I think a concept like that would work in Pattaya, at lower prices than the New Orleans restaurant here, which is more of a fancy night out full menu concept.

I've made jambalya and gumbo a number of times and Thai people have loved it too. I also think that Mekong giant catfish would be seriously good smoked using an offset so long as you can keep the temp down to 80F or below. I'm not sure how easy that would be, given that the ambient temp is so high in Thailand. Best bet would be over night and keep using the hose on it I guess

[wayned]

Actually, the best italian sub (hoagie) that I ever had in Thailand was in Samui, but it was a long time ago There was an italian baker ( on the ring raod in Chaweng behind the gym across from where the road from the market intercepted it) who made good bread and pizza but he also imported itaiian coldcuts. real italian salami, sausage, cappacolla, mortadella, provolone, hard mozzerella, pickled itaiian cherry peppers, etc. He made sandwiches and pizzabut not subs. So one day I showed him the "philadelphia style" , fresh warm italian bun, loads of salami, mortadella, lettuce, tomato, onion, olive oil, touch of vinegar,salt, pepper, cappacola, provolone, oregano/italian seasoning and cherry peppers either on the sandwich or the side. He used to charge me for the bun and the meat and cheese by weight. Never had anything like it since leaving samui.

[lomatopo]

Off on a tangent, but anyone else tried http://www.lelapinbangkok.com/

Got onto this place while working in an office in BKK with a few other expat guys, delivered to office/home.. Yummy to me and became our standard Friday fare at lunch, but as I am Ozzie not sure how it would take on the USA taste buds. If it works good, no work, well then up to you just an idea to try and improve the gastronomical experience.

Cheers

Those sandwiches look fantastic - you order once a week? How many sandwiches? Did any Thais in the office partake? How was the general quality, bread, delivery?

I wonder if the name is a nod to someone famous who was born in the year of the Rabbit? (Like the Rabbit card?)

I can't imagine trying to deliver a Po boy - by the time it arrived it would be a greasy mess.