China Keen On Thailand's High-Speed Railway Project

[CharlesGrady]

My point stands, Canada never had , and probably never will have a 300 kph railway .

Neither will Thailand.

[chiangmaikelly]

My point stands, Canada never had , and probably never will have a 300 kph railway .

Neither will Thailand.

The point I was trying to make was that perhaps 300 kph is not necessary for a high speed rail system in Thailand.

I don't know what you call a high speed train but to me 120 kph is high speed. Would you think so? Does Thailand have the ability to construct a railway capable of speeds of 120 kph?

[CharlesGrady]

My point stands, Canada never had , and probably never will have a 300 kph railway .

Neither will Thailand.

The point I was trying to make was that perhaps 300 kph is not necessary for a high speed rail system in Thailand.

I don't know what you call a high speed train but to me 120 kph is high speed. Would you think so? Does Thailand have the ability to construct a railway capable of speeds of 120 kph?

120 kph was high speed like 25 years ago , in the real world.

[chiangmaikelly]

My point stands, Canada never had , and probably never will have a 300 kph railway .

Neither will Thailand.

The point I was trying to make was that perhaps 300 kph is not necessary for a high speed rail system in Thailand.

I don't know what you call a high speed train but to me 120 kph is high speed. Would you think so? Does Thailand have the ability to construct a railway capable of speeds of 120 kph?

120 kph was high speed like 25 years ago , in the real world.

Yes you are right. How fast do you think a train would have to go to be a success in Thailand?

[rubl]

The point I was trying to make was that perhaps 300 kph is not necessary for a high speed rail system in Thailand.

I don't know what you call a high speed train but to me 120 kph is high speed. Would you think so? Does Thailand have the ability to construct a railway capable of speeds of 120 kph?

120 kph was high speed like 25 years ago , in the real world.

Yes you are right. How fast do you think a train would have to go to be a success in Thailand?

I'm not sure it's just a matter of speed. I would think a combination of 'reliability', doubling of tracks, speed increase from 40km/h as it seems to be now. Maybe a few extra lines to facilitate cargo traffic. IMHO

[hellodolly]

The point I was trying to make was that perhaps 300 kph is not necessary for a high speed rail system in Thailand.

I don't know what you call a high speed train but to me 120 kph is high speed. Would you think so? Does Thailand have the ability to construct a railway capable of speeds of 120 kph?

120 kph was high speed like 25 years ago , in the real world.

Yes you are right. How fast do you think a train would have to go to be a success in Thailand?

I'm not sure it's just a matter of speed. I would think a combination of 'reliability', doubling of tracks, speed increase from 40km/h as it seems to be now. Maybe a few extra lines to facilitate cargo traffic. IMHO

If I remember correctly I believe the original plan was for A high speed rail road from Singapore to Peking. The Thailand part was to start with one from Bangkok to Lao. It was to be a new line not an upgrade of the existing one. China was going to work with Thailand on it and yes China has the technology. I definitely would like a ride on one so Chiang Mai would be good for me. But if I have to I will go to Bangkok and ride it to Laos.

The original plan had no spur lines such as the one to Chiang Mai. There are plans out there for connections to many different cities but I do not believe the one China is interested in comes to Chiang Mai or for that matter the New Port Thailand is thinking of building that would be convenient for Burma.

I have seen nothing of a plan involving China south of Bangkok although I believe Thailand has some plans in that area.

On another note I wonder if they will be as punctual as the older ones

[JeremyBowskill]

Trains made in China, maintenance carried out in Thailand. Can't wait to go 200 mph on one of them!

[chiangmaikelly]

Trains made in China, maintenance carried out in Thailand. Can't wait to go 200 mph on one of them!

China also put a man in space.

There are a lot of similarities between aircraft and high speed train manufacture.

[Publicus]

Foreign aid like this, such as building a railroad, is more helpful to a country than giving military training or weapaons (which the USA has done - my country). I hope it is Chinese experts and workers building it or the speed train will take half a century to complete (it the Thais are involved) and it will be of poor quality since the governemnt officials and contractors will have pocketed most of the money.

Anyone who thinks or believes the Chinese can build high speed trains or many other more routine projects might want to check out the following link: http://www.businessi...1#ixzz24vWxwQR3]

And if anyone wants to see how the Chinese build things in a foreign country just to scam truckloads of cash money might want to click on the following link: Check Out The Massive Chinese-Built Ghost Town In The Middle Of Angola

And here are some ghost cities constructed in the PRC itself : http://www.businessinsider.com/china-ghost-cities-2011-11#chinas-most-famous-ghost-city-on-the-outskirts-of-ordos-has-been-empty-for-years-1

Further, if anyone wants to see Beijing's latest serious trouble making in the Southeast Asia Sea (aka: South China Sea) might find the following link informative: http://www.marketora...ticle37704.html

Edited November 26, 2012 by Publicus

[chiangmaikelly]

Foreign aid like this, such as building a railroad, is more helpful to a country than giving military training or weapaons (which the USA has done - my country). I hope it is Chinese experts and workers building it or the speed train will take half a century to complete (it the Thais are involved) and it will be of poor quality since the governemnt officials and contractors will have pocketed most of the money.

Anyone who thinks or believes the Chinese can build high speed trains or many other more routine things might want to check out the following link: http://www.businessi...1#ixzz24vWxwQR3]

And if anyone wants to see how the Chinese build things in a foreign country just to scam money might want to click on the following link: Check Out The Massive Chinese-Built Ghost Town In The Middle Of Angola >

Further, if anyone wants to see Beijing's latest serious trouble making in the Southeast Asia Sea (aka: South China Sea) might find the following link informative: http://www.marketora...ticle37704.html

Moreover, if anyone might be interested to see how Beijing constructs ghost cities right in the PRC, you might want to visit this link: http://www.alsosprac...-revisited.html

Nothing about the guy in space or the airplanes eh?

[Publicus]

Foreign aid like this, such as building a railroad, is more helpful to a country than giving military training or weapaons (which the USA has done - my country). I hope it is Chinese experts and workers building it or the speed train will take half a century to complete (it the Thais are involved) and it will be of poor quality since the governemnt officials and contractors will have pocketed most of the money.

Anyone who thinks or believes the Chinese can build high speed trains or many other more routine things might want to check out the following link: http://www.businessi...1#ixzz24vWxwQR3]

And if anyone wants to see how the Chinese build things in a foreign country just to scam money might want to click on the following link: Check Out The Massive Chinese-Built Ghost Town In The Middle Of Angola >

Further, if anyone wants to see Beijing's latest serious trouble making in the Southeast Asia Sea (aka: South China Sea) might find the following link informative: http://www.marketora...ticle37704.html

Moreover, if anyone might be interested to see how Beijing constructs ghost cities right in the PRC, you might want to visit this link: http://www.alsosprac...-revisited.html

Nothing about the guy in space or the airplanes eh?

I read Xinhua for the CCP puff stuff, or the Chinese Daily published in such a neighborly and solicitous way by the nationmultimediagroup.

[chiangmaikelly]

Foreign aid like this, such as building a railroad, is more helpful to a country than giving military training or weapaons (which the USA has done - my country). I hope it is Chinese experts and workers building it or the speed train will take half a century to complete (it the Thais are involved) and it will be of poor quality since the governemnt officials and contractors will have pocketed most of the money.

Anyone who thinks or believes the Chinese can build high speed trains or many other more routine things might want to check out the following link: http://www.businessi...1#ixzz24vWxwQR3]

And if anyone wants to see how the Chinese build things in a foreign country just to scam money might want to click on the following link: Check Out The Massive Chinese-Built Ghost Town In The Middle Of Angola >

Further, if anyone wants to see Beijing's latest serious trouble making in the Southeast Asia Sea (aka: South China Sea) might find the following link informative: http://www.marketora...ticle37704.html

Moreover, if anyone might be interested to see how Beijing constructs ghost cities right in the PRC, you might want to visit this link: http://www.alsosprac...-revisited.html

Nothing about the guy in space or the airplanes eh?

I read Xinhua for the CCP puff stuff, or the Chinese Daily published in such a neighborly and solicitous way by the nationmultimediagroup.

Don't you think that high speed trains and airplanes and space stuff have more in common than roads and cities in terms of technical expertise in building?

[OzMick]

Fares Bangkok to Chiang Mai:

1st class sleeper = 1,453 baht

2nd class sleeper = 881 baht

2nd class seat a/c fast railcar = 611 baht

The high-speed trains won't have a sleeper (would take maybe 2.5 hours to get to Chiang Mai), so we can compare their price to the 2nd class seat with A/C, which is 611 baht.

Even if they triple the price (as someone here said) to 1,800 baht one way, it is still cheaper then air travel.

Seems like a good option for tourists, although backpackers will continue to use the slow trains.

Yingluk has the lunch-boxes, and you have worked out the fares, and they still haven't completed the feasibility study. Out of interest, how many passengers will it require per year at B611 to make the concept economically viable, and is there that many passengers who want to do that trip per year?

[Publicus]

As to taikonauts, bullet trains, roads, ghost cities etc the Boyz in Beijing actually are now trying to get somewhat away from the six decade hype that their leaders too are versed in engineering, hi tech, super science etc. Li Keqiang, the new Wen Jai Bao designate (pron: Lee Key-chiang), has a law degree which is a departure from the engineering degree that had been a prerequisite to membership of the Central Committee and all of its various super sub-bodies (a shift towards the rule of law being suggested of course). The material issue to Thailand or to mainland Asean in general in this high speed rail or any other kind of construction is corruption to include fraud, waste, embezzlement and elitist rule just to mention a few of the aspects I address. The Boyz in Beijing already, in no time at all, have created a massive high speed and high visibility train disaster within the PRC. It seems to me the lesson for Thailand and to all of the governments of the region is that, hey, if you smash your car into the fence and onto my lawn, I'm not gonna let you borrow my car so you can drive to a dealership to buy another car. The Boyz in Beijing for years have been building ghost cities in their own country - then they go to other countries to build ghost cities that also remain empty, unoccupied, indefinitely. In the middle of all this ghost construction the Boyz in Beijing suddenly decide they'd better start catching up to Europeans especially, but the Japanese too, in building high speed rail systems. These thinkers and takers are not the kind of people I'd wish on Thailand or to mainland Asean governments to build high speed rail systems across mainland SE Asia.

Yet another material aspect of my objection is that the first thing the ancient Roman Empire did after a conquest was to build roads, however, the Boyz in Beijing seem to prefer building transport and communication before conquest.

[Lakegeneve]

The point I was trying to make was that perhaps 300 kph is not necessary for a high speed rail system in Thailand.

I don't know what you call a high speed train but to me 120 kph is high speed. Would you think so? Does Thailand have the ability to construct a railway capable of speeds of 120 kph?

120 kph was high speed like 25 years ago , in the real world.

Yes you are right. How fast do you think a train would have to go to be a success in Thailand?

I'm not sure it's just a matter of speed. I would think a combination of 'reliability', doubling of tracks, speed increase from 40km/h as it seems to be now. Maybe a few extra lines to facilitate cargo traffic. IMHO

There is a lot of mixed info and confusion in many peoples posts. HSR rail in the proposed Thai context will be around 220-250km/h on standard gauge - new electrified lines. (Though the govt. has stated 300km/h for the CM line).

These are not new plans, they have been around for the last 20 yrs but never been progressed. 10 years ago a HSR line to Korat was proposed with a study done but it was not progressed by the then govt. The Dems (&BJT) when in power, along with offers of Chinese cash and expertise, dusted off the old basic plans. They wanted to fund & build the Rayong HSR line first.The current govt wants to build the north lines first for obvious electoral reasons and alos due to the Chinese offering to fund the NE line. Thankfully, there has been enough momentum and a realisation by policy makers that transport links need ot be upgraded that the 4 proposed lines will eventually and gradually be built - no matter who funds or builds them.

However, remember there are two completely separate processes going on. Whilst the HSR lines receives the attention, the SRT decided many years ago to

a) upgrade lines and double tracking - to be completed by 2024. (the major reason the network is so slow and unreliable)

b ) eventual gauge conversion to standard gauge,

c) and eventual electrification of the network.

The double tracking is ongoing regardless of what happens with HSR but it will allow freight trains to start running above 80km/h max. (Eventually, max running speeds on the narrow gauge network could approach 160km/h)

That is in the context where from the 1960s until the last 5 years, the railways were basically allowed to run down and fall apart with no major investment in new lines, rolling stock nor maintenance . Only 60% of the SRTs locos are usebale with an average age of 45yrs and ave speeds are lower than in the 1970s!

Finally, that has changed with serious funds being allocated to make up for 50 years of little funding - particularly under the last government (176billion baht was allocated in 2010) and continued by the current govt. There is an issue with integration of both plans and some questions to be resolved on that front.

The initial part of the HSR network would most likely look like this (as proposed by OTP, MOT) but the Chinese are very keen to build the whole line to Nong Khai quickly (mixed frieght & pax max speed 250km/h, single track) to link with the two cross country Laos lines that will start to be built in Laos next year.

Edited November 26, 2012 by Lakegeneve

[Lakegeneve]

Personally I'd rather see a significant improvement of the current rail infrastructure. That would include a speed up of the doubling of tracks and the quality, reliability of tracks. An infrastructure that doesn't rely on a person with red flag walking in front of the train, or a few days interruption because of rain and/or flooding.

To me that would seem to have a higher ROI to Thailand than high speed links from BKK to CM and NK. Of course I may be wrong, but I've never seen a business case for the high speed train and I'm not even asking for a sound one.

That is all gradually happening separate from and regardless of the HSR lines that will be built, see the above post. It will still take a nearly 15 yrs to double track and substantially improve most of the network that has not already been upgraded in the last 5-7 yrs.