Debate Reveals All That's Wrong In Thai Politics

[webfact]

BURNING ISSUE

Debate reveals all that's wrong in Thai politics

Avudh Panananda

The Nation

BANGKOK: -- At yesterday's censure debate, Democrat Party leader Abhisit Vejjajiva was seen as a Ken doll and likewise Prime Minister Yingluck Shinawatra was Barbie, as the two took turns to demonstrate democracy at work.

Under democratic rule, the two were paired up to complete the system of checks and balances.

On Day 2 of the three-day censure, the jury was still out on the verdict. It might take years to draw a conclusion on alleged corruption involving Defence Minister Sukampol Suwannathat and Deputy Interior Minister Chatt Kuldiloke.

The grilling of Deputy Prime Minister Chalerm Yoobamrung boiled down to an exchange of sharp words instead of shedding light on his job performance.

At tomorrow's censure vote, the government is certain to survive, although the opposition's censure on graft violations will not be in vain.

In the coming months, Sukampol and Chatt will be busy trying to clear their names with the National Anti-Corruption Commission (NACC).

It is ironic the two got their jobs at the blessing of former prime minister Thaksin Shinawatra and are now at risk of impeachment due to allegations that Thaksin whimsically decided to reward certain cronies with lucrative contracts.

Based on evidence brought up by the opposition, Sukampol and Chatt did not enrich themselves from the irregularities, but allegedly rigged the procurement rules to favour those close to Thaksin or his family, including his sister Yaowapha Wongsawat.

The NACC is expected to take years to complete the graft probes on the two before recommending whether to prosecute and impeach them or drop the charges. By that time, the government might have changed several times and the NACC ruling for the two would be just a footnote in history.

The highlight of the censure debate was, however, the Abhisit-Yingluck match.

In his attacks and her rebuttals, Abhisit and Yingluck inadvertently brought up some underlying reasons pinpointing what has gone wrong in Thai politics.

Toward the end of his remarks, Abhisit said he pitied Yingluck for being unable to exert her leadership and for being under the shadow of her brother Thaksin and other relatives.

He reminded the prime minister that politics is not back on track for two reasons - first, she mixed up the country's interests with those of her family's, and second, she allowed the issue of her brother Thaksin's amnesty to persist instead of solving it.

In one of her scripted speeches delivered at Parliament, Yingluck rebutted Abhisit on issues related to her job performance, particularly the rice-pledging scheme and the alleged inaction to root out corruption.

But she completely ignored Abhisit's pity. She also refused to comment on two issues - Thaksin's amnesty and her Shinawatra clan's meddling in contracts awarded by the government.

What Abhisit brought up and what Yingluck ignored should make it clear why Thailand has been stuck in the political quagmire for so long.

The censure has brought to light why the political divide seems unsolvable. If the main opposition party speaks and the ruling party opts to turn deaf and vice versa, then political normalcy will remain a far-fetched goal.

The survival or sinking of a government in the motion of no confidence is meaningless if the coalition and opposition lawmakers remain incommunicado with one another.

-- The Nation 2012-11- 27

[Notstupid30]

Hub of failed jobs done by the govs

[Skywalker69]

This whole mess can most likely end with à civil war.

[Roadman]

This whole mess can most likely end with à civil war.

The chances are good next year when the fugitive criminals white washing of his crimes and the Shinawtra high jacking of the judicary within the constitution to place them and their cronies above the law come onto the agenda.

[angsta]

This whole mess can most likely end with à civil war.

It isn't a civil war. The Bangkok elite cannot win a vote so they get the military to kick out the government. It's called a dictatorship if you don't win by an election and they have not been to popular recently.

[Moruya]

This whole mess can most likely end with à civil war.

It isn't a civil war. The Bangkok elite cannot win a vote so they get the military to kick out the government. It's called a dictatorship if you don't win by an election and they have not been to popular recently.

Going by forum rules, I am not permitted to call you a halfwit.

My thoughts are a different matter. I think you are a halfwit

[fareastguy]

The problem with Thai politics is Thai culture, & the problem with Thai culture is Thai politics !!

It's a never ending cycle that I fear will never be resolved, it is ingrained too deep to be eradicated, until that is someone with the resolve & true will to lead Thailand out of the depths of old style dynasty leadership & corruption comes along.

That ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

[asiawatcher]

Thai politics is simply a cesspool of corruption, protected by parliamentary privilege. Join the club and you are immune to prosecution. Perks, insider deals and unabated access to taxpayers funds for the most ridiculous scams.

As already stated, inability to even undertake to address and resolve issues, turn the blind eye or deaf ear, these people should be struck out immediately, stripped of their posts for failure to comply.

But until there is any modicum of sensibility within Thai governance of law, this is a sad country and will remain so. And civil war is always a possibility, Thai against Thai. What ever happened to Thai Rak Thai (Thai's love Thai's)?

[geriatrickid]

No need for the PM to get down into the gutter with the Democrats. That is why she ignored Abhisit.

It is Abhisit that is to be pitied. Unable to win an outright election on hs own merits he had to come to power with the assistance of the military.

One constant with Abhisit is that he is not a take charge leader. In the censure "debate" he was small player, with others in his party taking the fight to the PTP. Those MPs landed some blows and they let the PTP know that they were being watched. Unfortunately, there were not enough of them and the debate got into the muck with the references to Thaksin. People know that the old man is giving counsel and that he is hovering. The electorate knew it and yet still elected PTP to power. Continually harping about Thaksin turns most Thais off. What the peple will pay attention to are cabinet ministers pressed and prodded and there wasn't enough of that. The PM and her government will walk away relatively unscathed and the Thai voters will continue to desert the Democrats.

[OzMick]

"..she completely ignored Abhisit's pity. She also refused to comment on two issues .."

How could she, they weren't included in the written speech given her to read out.

[bigbamboo]

This whole mess can most likely end with à civil war.

It isn't a civil war. The Bangkok elite cannot win a vote so they get the military to kick out the government. It's called a dictatorship if you don't win by an election and they have not been to popular recently.

In Zimbabwe it's called a dicatorship when you do win by an election.

[smedly]

Thailand will never move forward as things stand - greed - power - deception - lies - and corruption rule in this country, it will never change because elected governments have neither the will nor the ambition to change it - they are too busy filling their pockets like rampent pigs at the trough.

Ccould there possibly be a White Knight that could emerge and blow the lid off everything and make an honest attempt to put this country on a true and honest path - maybe but I doubt it, greed and corruption have taken such a hold in Thailand that it has become the norm - it has advanced itself so far that I believe it's almost irreversable.

If you look at the history of a young country like America, the forfathers had a genuine interest in making America free and fair for all, they had vision, they put in place institutions that would see America evolve into a model democratic society, OK it's not perfect and probably could do with some tweaks here and there but generally it and many western societies have evolved much the same way.

So how do you get Thailand on the path, well first there has to be a will - number one stumbling block - those in a position to change don't want the change - greed lies and coruption is making them very happy and rich.

Intervention by a powerful traditional family that everyone loves and trusts - a possibility

Intervention by the army with a genuine interest to set things straight - tried that and it failed or didn't go far enough

A revolution by the people with someone leading that wants genuine change and to put things right (White Knight) - possibly, could also call on outside help to set up institutions - charters - laws and a constitution that provides a free and fair democracy

Maybe a mix of all the above, but one thing is sure - The landscape in Thailand will not change unless something radical happens and that's the truth.

Just my opinion of course

now off to the beach

[McMagus]

I think the issue is being realised that a government will only be as good as the opposition allows them to be. By that I mean that the democrats have never been able to come up with policies which would get them elected. Furthermore, as an opposition they are useless and as a consequence the govt. can get away with anything. Meanwhile the Thai population sits on its asre and does nothing to demand transparency in govt. and end to corruption. In a society which has on record agreed that corruption is OK... what chance has this country got? I lay the blame squarely at the feet of the Thai nation... as I said in a similar post ...time for them to grow a spine !

[Soupdragon]

I think you may have hit the nail dead centre there Smedly.

The history of corruption is clear for all to see and yet there are no real mechanisms in place to protect the country from abuse. I personally think the most disturbing develop is the level of greed has risen to unbelievable levels to the point where very real and lasting damage will be done.

I have scanned the horizon but I don't see any white knights.

[whybother]

I think the issue is being realised that a government will only be as good as the opposition allows them to be. By that I mean that the democrats have never been able to come up with policies which would get them elected. Furthermore, as an opposition they are useless and as a consequence the govt. can get away with anything. Meanwhile the Thai population sits on its asre and does nothing to demand transparency in govt. and end to corruption. In a society which has on record agreed that corruption is OK... what chance has this country got? I lay the blame squarely at the feet of the Thai nation... as I said in a similar post ...time for them to grow a spine !

Actually, prior to the last election a blind survey put many of the Democrat policies ahead of PTP policies.

What the Democrats have failed to do is to get a foothold in the North and North East where large portion of the population is.

Thaksin identified this before he became PM, and then used populist policies to "buy" the loyalties (as all governments do). Thaksin also used his wealth to buy many of the regional families into his TRT fold ... the families that the people vote for regardless of which party they are part of. The same happens in the south, but there isn't as big a population there.

[McMagus]

I think the issue is being realised that a government will only be as good as the opposition allows them to be. By that I mean that the democrats have never been able to come up with policies which would get them elected. Furthermore, as an opposition they are useless and as a consequence the govt. can get away with anything. Meanwhile the Thai population sits on its asre and does nothing to demand transparency in govt. and end to corruption. In a society which has on record agreed that corruption is OK... what chance has this country got? I lay the blame squarely at the feet of the Thai nation... as I said in a similar post ...time for them to grow a spine !

Actually, prior to the last election a blind survey put many of the Democrat policies ahead of PTP policies.

What the Democrats have failed to do is to get a foothold in the North and North East where large portion of the population is.

Thaksin identified this before he became PM, and then used populist policies to "buy" the loyalties (as all governments do). Thaksin also used his wealth to buy many of the regional families into his TRT fold ... the families that the people vote for regardless of which party they are part of. The same happens in the south, but there isn't as big a population there.

This is my point exactly, the Democrats have consistently failed to provide policies which would garner support from the vast majority of Thais;..rural Thais.

[whybother]

I think the issue is being realised that a government will only be as good as the opposition allows them to be. By that I mean that the democrats have never been able to come up with policies which would get them elected. Furthermore, as an opposition they are useless and as a consequence the govt. can get away with anything. Meanwhile the Thai population sits on its asre and does nothing to demand transparency in govt. and end to corruption. In a society which has on record agreed that corruption is OK... what chance has this country got? I lay the blame squarely at the feet of the Thai nation... as I said in a similar post ...time for them to grow a spine !

Actually, prior to the last election a blind survey put many of the Democrat policies ahead of PTP policies.

What the Democrats have failed to do is to get a foothold in the North and North East where large portion of the population is.

Thaksin identified this before he became PM, and then used populist policies to "buy" the loyalties (as all governments do). Thaksin also used his wealth to buy many of the regional families into his TRT fold ... the families that the people vote for regardless of which party they are part of. The same happens in the south, but there isn't as big a population there.

This is my point exactly, the Democrats have consistently failed to provide policies which would garner support from the vast majority of Thais;..rural Thais.

That wasn't my point. My point was that the policies are irrelevant to a lot of people. They will generally vote for the people that they have always voted for, regardless of which party they are or were in.

The Democrats provided policies that would garner support, as shown by the poll. There is a lot more to it than just having policies that people like. People in the North and North East vote against the Democrats because they are the Democrats. They don't even take any notice of their policies when they know they are Democrat policies.

[FOODLOVER]

No need for the PM to get down into the gutter with the Democrats. That is why she ignored Abhisit.

It is Abhisit that is to be pitied. Unable to win an outright election on hs own merits he had to come to power with the assistance of the military.

One constant with Abhisit is that he is not a take charge leader. In the censure "debate" he was small player, with others in his party taking the fight to the PTP. Those MPs landed some blows and they let the PTP know that they were being watched. Unfortunately, there were not enough of them and the debate got into the muck with the references to Thaksin. People know that the old man is giving counsel and that he is hovering. The electorate knew it and yet still elected PTP to power. Continually harping about Thaksin turns most Thais off. What the peple will pay attention to are cabinet ministers pressed and prodded and there wasn't enough of that. The PM and her government will walk away relatively unscathed and the Thai voters will continue to desert the Democrats.

You do know that a convicted criminal running the country from afar is illegal, right?

[chainarong]

Interesting topic, interesting replies, it's also interesting that half the problems would disappear if they (the Government) adopted the tender process most western governments have in place, stifling graft and corruption , too easy, oh well another hundred years of bullsh!!t

[McMagus]

I think the issue is being realised that a government will only be as good as the opposition allows them to be. By that I mean that the democrats have never been able to come up with policies which would get them elected. Furthermore, as an opposition they are useless and as a consequence the govt. can get away with anything. Meanwhile the Thai population sits on its asre and does nothing to demand transparency in govt. and end to corruption. In a society which has on record agreed that corruption is OK... what chance has this country got? I lay the blame squarely at the feet of the Thai nation... as I said in a similar post ...time for them to grow a spine !

Actually, prior to the last election a blind survey put many of the Democrat policies ahead of PTP policies.

What the Democrats have failed to do is to get a foothold in the North and North East where large portion of the population is.

Thaksin identified this before he became PM, and then used populist policies to "buy" the loyalties (as all governments do). Thaksin also used his wealth to buy many of the regional families into his TRT fold ... the families that the people vote for regardless of which party they are part of. The same happens in the south, but there isn't as big a population there.

This is my point exactly, the Democrats have consistently failed to provide policies which would garner support from the vast majority of Thais;..rural Thais.

That wasn't my point. My point was that the policies are irrelevant to a lot of people. They will generally vote for the people that they have always voted for, regardless of which party they are or were in.

The Democrats provided policies that would garner support, as shown by the poll. There is a lot more to it than just having policies that people like. People in the North and North East vote against the Democrats because they are the Democrats. They don't even take any notice of their policies when they know they are Democrat policies.

Now we are getting to hub (pun intended) of the issue. Thailand is not a democracy but a feudal society with some trappings of democratic look a likes. People do vote for their historical 'bosses'. Maybe in time policies will come into play but from what rural Thais tell me .... they liked the populist policies of the current govt....who just happened to be their historical 'boss'. Now ..if the democrats can buy the support of these rural power brokers.....

[yoshiwara]

Now we are getting to hub (pun intended) of the issue. Thailand is not a democracy but a feudal society with some trappings of democratic look a likes. People do vote for their historical 'bosses'. Maybe in time policies will come into play but from what rural Thais tell me .... they liked the populist policies of the current govt....who just happened to be their historical 'boss'. Now ..if the democrats can buy the support of these rural power brokers.....

No it isn't. Thailand is a capitalist society with the constraint of uneven development, large non-urban population and a divided ruling class (Thaksin vs the Establishment)

Edited November 28, 2012 by yoshiwara

[h90]

This whole mess can most likely end with à civil war.

It isn't a civil war. The Bangkok elite cannot win a vote so they get the military to kick out the government. It's called a dictatorship if you don't win by an election and they have not been to popular recently.

yes lets hope the military is acting soon.....

[h90]

I think the issue is being realised that a government will only be as good as the opposition allows them to be. By that I mean that the democrats have never been able to come up with policies which would get them elected. Furthermore, as an opposition they are useless and as a consequence the govt. can get away with anything. Meanwhile the Thai population sits on its asre and does nothing to demand transparency in govt. and end to corruption. In a society which has on record agreed that corruption is OK... what chance has this country got? I lay the blame squarely at the feet of the Thai nation... as I said in a similar post ...time for them to grow a spine !

Actually, prior to the last election a blind survey put many of the Democrat policies ahead of PTP policies.

What the Democrats have failed to do is to get a foothold in the North and North East where large portion of the population is.

Thaksin identified this before he became PM, and then used populist policies to "buy" the loyalties (as all governments do). Thaksin also used his wealth to buy many of the regional families into his TRT fold ... the families that the people vote for regardless of which party they are part of. The same happens in the south, but there isn't as big a population there.

and Thaksin did a full scale vote buying there as well.

[h90]

No need for the PM to get down into the gutter with the Democrats. That is why she ignored Abhisit.

It is Abhisit that is to be pitied. Unable to win an outright election on hs own merits he had to come to power with the assistance of the military.

One constant with Abhisit is that he is not a take charge leader. In the censure "debate" he was small player, with others in his party taking the fight to the PTP. Those MPs landed some blows and they let the PTP know that they were being watched. Unfortunately, there were not enough of them and the debate got into the muck with the references to Thaksin. People know that the old man is giving counsel and that he is hovering. The electorate knew it and yet still elected PTP to power. Continually harping about Thaksin turns most Thais off. What the peple will pay attention to are cabinet ministers pressed and prodded and there wasn't enough of that. The PM and her government will walk away relatively unscathed and the Thai voters will continue to desert the Democrats.

You do know that a convicted criminal running the country from afar is illegal, right?

Is it? I doubt there is a specific law that tells that.

[McMagus]

In a country where the education system stresses obedience to the hierarchical structure of society and political alliances can be clearly defined along historical power relationships, I would term it feudal. For me it is characterised by people owing allegiance primarily to their 'boss' as opposed to their country and its welfare. Don't think for a moment that Thaksin is not one of the elite, he is, but not part of 'old guard'.

[McMagus]

Ooops something is amiss .. that post was in reply to .....

Now we are getting to hub (pun intended) of the issue. Thailand is not a democracy but a feudal society with some trappings of democratic look a likes. People do vote for their historical 'bosses'. Maybe in time policies will come into play but from what rural Thais tell me .... they liked the populist policies of the current govt....who just happened to be their historical 'boss'. Now ..if the democrats can buy the support of these rural power brokers.....

No it isn't. Thailand is a capitalist society with the constraint of uneven development, large non-urban population and a divided ruling class (Thaksin vs the Establishment)