Another Sorry Story

[Tatsujin]

Section 51 (500B)

To turn right:

• 
  a. on a roadway with no traffic lane, the driver shall keep his vehicle close on the right-hand (sic) side of the middle line of the roadway at not less distance than 30m before the turn-way
  

[softgeorge]

Sorry bad choice of words, I didn't actually jog past them with my laptop playing the clip. We watched the clip together and had a conversation over coffee in the office asking for thier proffesional opinions a combined total of over 90 years of experience. We were actually sitting.

Nah, I just meant did they see the clip or you talked to them over the phone..... And what did they say about Jamie's road position before taking the right hand turn? He was quite clearly not following the rules of the road for making a right hand turn and was doing so in a manor dangerous to other road users. I don't see how they could miss this with their 90 years of experience.

It was the blantantly obvious offence commited by the Thai rider, the offence that slaps you squarely in the face. The offence of failing to keep as far left as practaicable. There was absolutely no reason whatsoever preventing the thai from obeying the law and traveling on the left side of the lane. Cut and dried, tagged and bagged guilty as you know what. Thanks for coming.

Jamie was clearly travelling on the left as per the law and was veering right to make a turn. No offences comitted by Jamie the Thai 100% broke the law.

You are quite wrong there. He should have been as close to the centre line as possible and he should have been in this position for approx 30m before making the right hand turn. Take a minute to look up the rules of the road for making a right hand turn. I'll find them later for you when I get home. They are quite straight forward.

Keeping to the left is for general driving straight ahead. He should have been in the left bike lane and then moved in to the centre position with his indicator on long before he reached the turn. If he had the Thai driver would have had ample space to go to the left of him. However he failed in following these basic rules and forced the Thai to go right.

I am well aware of the rules as it is my job and what I have been doing for years. I have looked at the video numerous times, even with fellow workmates and an expert in accident investigations and prosecutions. The Aussie guy would not be charged with anything the Thai rider would be charged with culpable driving. It is pointless arguing with sofa experts. Your case would be blown clear out of court and you would be made to look like a fool. Sorry but that is just the way it is.

[Tatsujin]

I am well aware of the rules as it is my job and what I have been doing for years. I have looked at the video numerous times, even with fellow workmates and an expert in accident investigations and prosecutions. The Aussie guy would not be charged with anything the Thai rider would be charged with culpable driving. It is pointless arguing with sofa experts. Your case would be blown clear out of court and you would be made to look like a fool. Sorry but that is just the way it is.

Well good for you, but I think you all need glasses cos I see something totally different . . . I think if it did actually get to Court, there is a good argument to state that the Australian was riding unsafely which in part lead to the accident.

[BusyBee123]

Well I hope this thread serves as a strong message to at least one person who may leave his/her brains at the airport, when in holiday mode do not get on a motorbike in Thailand. It's not for novices and is tough enough for experienced drivers. If you want to kill yourself fine your choice, just think about those whom you may play a part in seriously injuring or sadly causing death.

[chrissables]

Who says he didn't have a licence? The passenger is over 16 so it is the passengers responsibily to wear a helmet, under 16 the riders responsibilty to ensure passenger has a helmet. Same as for seatbelts in a car.

Just to point out in the UK it is the responsibility of the driver to ensure seatbelts and helmets on all.

As passengers aren't required to have licenses, they don't take the fall.

Actually, the driver is not responsible, only for people under 16, i think.

[chooka]

I am well aware of the rules as it is my job and what I have been doing for years. I have looked at the video numerous times, even with fellow workmates and an expert in accident investigations and prosecutions. The Aussie guy would not be charged with anything the Thai rider would be charged with culpable driving. It is pointless arguing with sofa experts. Your case would be blown clear out of court and you would be made to look like a fool. Sorry but that is just the way it is.

Well good for you, but I think you all need glasses cos I see something totally different . . . I think if it did actually get to Court, there is a good argument to state that the Australian was riding unsafely which in part lead to the accident.

Can I ask one very simple question? Did they Thai police charge him with anything? I don't believe they did, possibly because they did not have cause to as the video was his defence. The same as others have said. If the Thai police wouldn't charge and Aussie police wouldn't charge him then there has to be something in that. Just food for thought.

[chrissables]

Interesting, wearing a helmet would have stopped the other bike hitting tham at a reported 50 mph. At that speed, a helmet or not make no difference.

You do not know that for sure.

I never said that wearing a helmet would have stopped the bike from hitting them. Stop trying to score cheap points. The poor girl died from head injuries <deleted>.

Not wearing a helmet definitely did not save the unfortunate girl. We will never know if a helmet would have made a difference. It could not have made things worse, but it may have made things better.

I was not trying to score points, but i do tend to be fed up with the must wear a helmet brigade. Yes its the law, i can't argue that. But if saving lives here was important, there are many things which would be better. I i totally disagree with wearing a helet in case some idiot may crash into me! Where is the logic in that!

[chooka]

I think the guts of this story was about the Thai Police preparing a confessional statement written in thai, which the guy could NOT read and had absolutely no idea of the contents and them trying to force him to sign it under duress. An underhanded tactic designed to quickly close the file and admonish the Thai rider of all involvement. Then after the piece of paper written in mumber jumbo to a farang was signed if he was foolish enough to do so the negotiations for compensation and extortion would begin. The real vilans in this story are the corrupt Thai Police.

How many people on here would sign something they had absolutely no idea about? Who would sign something that a corrupt police force was forcing you to sign. I know for a fact I wouldn't sign or admit to anything that I had no idea about.

Edited November 29, 2012 by chooka

[Tatsujin]

OK, for those that need glasses, I've prepared some visual materials for you.

These are by no means 100% accurate (I haven't been to the scene, there is some slight gradient and camber at play etc), but after looking at the pictures (objectively), tell me he was in the correct (or safe) position to make a right turn. I don't think so.

http://www.filedropper.com/bike-positioning-01

http://www.filedropper.com/bike-positioning-02

http://www.filedropper.com/bike-positioning-03

Edited November 29, 2012 by Tatsujin

[chooka]

OK, for those that need glasses, I've prepared some visual materials for you.

These are by no means 100% accurate (I haven't been to the scene, there is some slight gradient and camber at play etc), but after looking at the pictures (objectively), tell me he was in the correct (or safe) position to make a right turn. I don't think so.

http://www.filedropp...-positioning-01

http://www.filedropp...-positioning-02

http://www.filedropp...-positioning-03

I see you are on a quest to have this guy labeled a low life killer who should be rotting in a thai prison. The Thai police found nothing to charge him with. Do you think he lured his girlfriend to Thailand where he planned to kill her.

[mancub]

It doesn't matter how experienced a rider you may be , nor how correctly you adhere to the Highway Code . Normal rules just do NOT apply here .

How many Thai drivers ,motorcycle or any other vehicle actually check their mirrors , use their indicators or drive with any care or consideration for anyone else ?

This Thai guy is just another high-speed reckless chancer ,like so many others ,an accident waiting to happen . It's tragic that it ended like this , but it could just as easily have been another local he hit with 3 chidren on their bike .

This guy would have been well used to the crazy way people use the roads in this country , he was simply going too fast to react to something he didn't anticipate , or gambled and lost on this occasion.

[Tatsujin]

I see you are on a quest to have this guy labeled a low life killer who should be rotting in a thai prison. The Thai police found nothing to charge him with. Do you think he lured his girlfriend to Thailand where he planned to kill her.

I am not on a quest for anything particularly, and please don't put words in my mouth.

1. I never said he was a low life killer, nor do I think that.
   
2. I never said he should be rotting in jail, nor do I think that.
   
3. I never said or thought that he tried to kill her.
   

What I did say is:

1. He is not entirely blameless in this incident. His riding skills and road positioning are at the very least questionable, and in my mind the root cause of this unfortunate accident.
   
2. The Thai driver is not 100% to blame.
   

[chooka]

I see you are on a quest to have this guy labeled a low life killer who should be rotting in a thai prison. The Thai police found nothing to charge him with. Do you think he lured his girlfriend to Thailand where he planned to kill her.

I am not on a quest for anything particularly, and please don't put words in my mouth.

1. I never said he was a low life killer, nor do I think that.
   
2. I never said he should be rotting in jail, nor do I think that.
   
3. I never said or thought that he tried to kill her.
   

What I did say is:

1. He is not entirely blameless in this incident. His riding skills and road positioning are at the very least questionable, and in my mind the root cause of this unfortunate accident.
   
2. The Thai driver is not 100% to blame.
   

My appologies just an impression I got.

So from your proffessional opinion what should he be charged with in Thailand and what should the Thai guy be charged with. Do you believe he should be doing jail time in Thailand. Taking into consideration that the Thai authorities found nothing to charge him with after they failed to pressure him into signing a statement. Remember the Thai police eventually wrote it off as an unfortunate accident, no charges against either party.

[Tatsujin]

My appologies just an impression I got.

So from your proffessional opinion what should he be charged with in Thailand and what should the Thai guy be charged with. Do you believe he should be doing jail time in Thailand. Taking into consideration that the Thai authorities found nothing to charge him with after they failed to pressure him into signing a statement. Remember the Thai police eventually wrote it off as an unfortunate accident, no charges against either party.

My own "personal" opinion is that neither should have been charged, that it was an unfortunate (although preventable) accident, with both parties contributing to the eventual fatal consequences.

My responses earlier were in response to those on a witchhunt out to blame the Thai driver 100% which I think is unfair.

Again, my own "personal" opinion is that I would lay equal blame on both parties. I think that the very bad riding (wobbling), bad positioning (too far to the left of his lane), and then the eventual cutting across of that lane to turn right is one of the root causes of this accident. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming he did actually indicate correctly, but he could just as equally have had his indicator turned on left instead.

[chooka]

My appologies just an impression I got.

So from your proffessional opinion what should he be charged with in Thailand and what should the Thai guy be charged with. Do you believe he should be doing jail time in Thailand. Taking into consideration that the Thai authorities found nothing to charge him with after they failed to pressure him into signing a statement. Remember the Thai police eventually wrote it off as an unfortunate accident, no charges against either party.

My own "personal" opinion is that neither should have been charged, that it was an unfortunate (although preventable) accident, with both parties contributing to the eventual fatal consequences.

My responses earlier were in response to those on a witchhunt out to blame the Thai driver 100% which I think is unfair.

Again, my own "personal" opinion is that I would lay equal blame on both parties. I think that the very bad riding (wobbling), bad positioning (too far to the left of his lane), and then the eventual cutting across of that lane to turn right is one of the root causes of this accident. I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt and assuming he did actually indicate correctly, but he could just as equally have had his indicator turned on left instead.

So what is your opinion of the Thai Police actions, which this topic is about?

[Tatsujin]

So what is your opinion of the Thai Police actions, which this topic is about?

Thailand is Thailand, if the Police did do as alleged, it's pretty much par for the course here. I do think they were justified in arresting him however. As for being pressured, did he not get legal representation? If not, why not? If I was arrested for something, in whatever country it happened in, I wouldn't be saying or doing anything until I'd spoken to either my own Lawyer or someone from the Embassy.

[ydraw]

His riding skills and road positioning are at the very least questionable, and in my mind the root cause of this unfortunate accident.

A speeding driver ploughed into the back of him. That's why there are laws against speeding and tailgating. You are really tying yourselves in knots trying to absolve the Thai driver of responsibility for reasons known only to yourself.

[Tatsujin]

You missed out the word allegedly before the word speeding in your sentence. If he was speeding why wasn't he convicted of that?

Anyway, I've said my piece and will leave you to it now.

[Tropicalevo]

I was not trying to score points, but i do tend to be fed up with the must wear a helmet brigade. Yes its the law, i can't argue that. But if saving lives here was important, there are many things which would be better. I i totally disagree with wearing a helet in case some idiot may crash into me! Where is the logic in that!

erm - the poor girl died from head injuries! (As reported in the news bites)

Yes - wearing helmet conversations do get a bit emotional at times, but regarding the logic of wearing a helmet on Koh Samui 'in case some idiot may crash into me' - well, a lot of idiots are doing that here! It's the most dangerous place in Thailand for motor cycle deaths according to some reports.

Every day I see motorcyclists doing stupid things. At least once a week I see an accident where a motorcyclist has 'come a cropper'. I never go anywhere on the island without a helmet now.

AND it is the law.

[Tropicalevo]

What do you base the comment "that alone makes it other driver's fault". Not in Thailand it doesn't. You knowledge is based on what exactly?

Basic logic and the rules of the road everywhere in the world.

If you run into the back of someone, it's your fault.

Even if they jammed on the brakes without warning, if you hit them it's because you were following too closely or going too fast. Always your fault. End of story.

You are missing the point.

The logic in Thailand is based on a different set of guidelines. It is more like...

A motorbike has an accident with a push bike - the motorbike driver pays. Logically - he has more money.

A truck has an accident with a motorbike - the truck driver pays. Logically he has more money.

A lorry has an accident with a truck - the lorry driver pays. Logically he has more money.

Unfortunately rules of the road are NOT the same everywhere in the world.

Imagine this -

You are driving along the road at 40 kph, wearing a helmet, on a mb with a valid Thai license.

As you get to Bangrak market at 5 pm a dingbat in a hire car pulls out from the side of road in front of you - 3 meters away. He did not see you. You brake and slide straight into him. Your fault? I think not. Are you going to pay for damage to his car? I'll bet you one baht that you will fight this kicking and screaming.

This is all academic (maybe). From looking at the CCTV - I would suggest that the Thai 'speedster ' may have gone into the side of the unfortunate Aussies and not into the back of them. So - to the BIB on first viewing of the accident, maybe they thought that the Aussies came from the side road (on the left) and were going across the main road! The 'speedster' could have suggested this. "They pulled out in front of me going straight across the road. There was nothing that I could do!"

Then when the BIB's saw the CCTV- they realised that all was not as first seen! (It takes a while to get the information.)

We will never know -so we should not make hasty judgements. There is too much information missing. The case put by the victims employer carefully fuzzes out the impact. Difficult to tell. Maybe they fuzzed it out because it told a slightly different story?

My last words on your 'end of story'.

I am the most handsome man on the planet!

Well - guess what? Just because I write something here - it does not necessarily make it true! We really need more information on this sad case - but we will probably never get it.

Edited November 29, 2012 by Tropicalevo

[Tropicalevo]

His riding skills and road positioning are at the very least questionable, and in my mind the root cause of this unfortunate accident.

A speeding driver ploughed into the back of him. That's why there are laws against speeding and tailgating. You are really tying yourselves in knots trying to absolve the Thai driver of responsibility for reasons known only to yourself.

and there are laws about having a valid driving license, drink driving, following the highway code and wearing crash helmets or seat-belts. There is fault on both sides here. Emotionally - we are all on the side of the Aussie guy - especially as the TV company did such a good job of 'biased' reporting. Did the TV company interview the police? The other driver? Witnesses? Of course not. It was a one-sided presentation.The cost was not worth the news-worthiness.

Just because something is on the internet or the TV does not mean that it is true. (Unless I say so of course .)

[ydraw]

.The case put by the victims employer carefully fuzzes out the impact.

They fuzzed it out because they do not like showing blood, death and detached body parts on prime time Australian TV. This stated in the video.

If he was speeding why wasn't he convicted of that?

If you have to ask, you shouldn't be commenting.

[Daewoo]

<snip>

"because of the practice where the non-fault but richer party is often expected to contribute to a poor but at fault party"...

This seems a little ridiculous and totally wrong, I am not having a dig at you or saying you are wrong but if it was the percieved richer person to pay for the faults of the wrongdoer, wouldn't that open up a farang hunting season? Oh I need a new I phone so I will jump on my bike and deliberately run into a farang (who cares if I injure him) and get paid out big time. A lot of tourists who come here are probably no better off economically in thier own countries than the Thai at fault. A lot save for a year if not years for a dream holiday and live on a budget whilst holidaying. Just because you are farang doesn't mean you are dripping with gold and ready to be harvested by a low life scammer.

I am just saying that it is common practice in Thailand, and might explain why the cops asked The Aussie to pay compensation to the Thai guy, even if they did not believe he was at fault...

Of course they get a cut of the compensation, which they wouldn't get if they were trying to get the penniless party to pay...

Cops frequently negotiate payment to the poorer party, even if they were in the wrong... it is sort of the Thai way of fairness... I am sure that the cops would also do what they can to weed out any intentional scamming, or at least ensure they got a decent cut...

Just thinking out loud of reasons why they may have been asking the Aussie for money, without directly targeting or entrapping him, because he was a farang...

[Tropicalevo]

Let us not forget that part of the pay package for the police is a cut from fines, proceeds from siezed goods etc etc. This is an official cut. It is the norm in Thailand and some other Asia countries. We call it a ''reward'.

All that is on a policeman's mind when he pulls you over for dangerous driving or whatever is

1 an official fine (1,000 baht say) and all of the paperwork at the office and share the cut with the lads at the station

or

2 tea money = no paperwork and keep all 200 baht to myself (or share with my mate if he is watching.

From driver's point of view - 200 baht and walk away or 1,000 baht, a record and maybe an afternoon gone wating at the station. Bear in mind that you are expected to negotiate the tea money fine.

Edited November 30, 2012 by Tropicalevo

[chrissables]

I was not trying to score points, but i do tend to be fed up with the must wear a helmet brigade. Yes its the law, i can't argue that. But if saving lives here was important, there are many things which would be better. I i totally disagree with wearing a helet in case some idiot may crash into me! Where is the logic in that!

erm - the poor girl died from head injuries! (As reported in the news bites)

Yes - wearing helmet conversations do get a bit emotional at times, but regarding the logic of wearing a helmet on Koh Samui 'in case some idiot may crash into me' - well, a lot of idiots are doing that here! It's the most dangerous place in Thailand for motor cycle deaths according to some reports.

Every day I see motorcyclists doing stupid things. At least once a week I see an accident where a motorcyclist has 'come a cropper'. I never go anywhere on the island without a helmet now.

AND it is the law.

When i find a poster here who has never broken a Thai law, i will take notice of what the law is. Have you Never had one drink to many? Taken a viagra, driven too fast............

Regarding the poor Aussie lady, IF the other rider was going 50mph into a stionary bike, a helmet would make no difference at all.

[Oak]

The young lady is gone, sad & no discussion will change that.

Just amazed at some people's attitude & comprehension.

To softgeorge,chooka, chrissables & co:

where do you practice your field of accident investigation?

Where are your so called colleages?

All very quick to blame the Thai man & the Thai system, but you see no fault at all in the Austarlian's situation.

As mentioned before, being Australian,according to you, should have had sense to follow rules & regulations drummed into him over the years

You sir are as biased as they come, Australians ,you only have a singular blinkered view. Very easy for the young guy not to remember, or admit anything . As the time goes on it's a coping mechanism & justifying the situation to himself.

I wonder what the poor's parents attitude towards him would be if they were aware of all the facts & not what was told by him and the sensationalised TV program.

So far:

Driving licence? ( Bike or International )?

Drinking?

Eratic driving?

No helmets?

I do feel very sorry for them, but I also believe in fair reporting & comments from in your words such knowledgable, educated & trained people.

[carmine]

The young lady is gone, sad & no discussion will change that.

Just amazed at some people's attitude & comprehension.

To softgeorge,chooka, chrissables & co:

where do you practice your field of accident investigation?

Where are your so called colleages?

All very quick to blame the Thai man & the Thai system, but you see no fault at all in the Austarlian's situation.

As mentioned before, being Australian,according to you, should have had sense to follow rules & regulations drummed into him over the years

You sir are as biased as they come, Australians ,you only have a singular blinkered view. Very easy for the young guy not to remember, or admit anything . As the time goes on it's a coping mechanism & justifying the situation to himself.

I wonder what the poor's parents attitude towards him would be if they were aware of all the facts & not what was told by him and the sensationalised TV program.

So far:

Driving licence? ( Bike or International )?

Drinking?

Eratic driving?

No helmets?

I do feel very sorry for them, but I also believe in fair reporting & comments from in your words such knowledgable, educated & trained people.

This is all very well but where do you stand on extorting large sums of money from victims?

Sorry but i have to edit as i also wish to ask you about the practice of "it s your fault. If you not here accident not happen."

Dont say that neither happen because they do and don't insult mine or anyone elses intelligence by even remotely suggesting that foreigners are dealt with here in an even handed honest manner.

Edited November 30, 2012 by carmine

[chrissables]

The young lady is gone, sad & no discussion will change that.

Just amazed at some people's attitude & comprehension.

To softgeorge,chooka, chrissables & co:

where do you practice your field of accident investigation?

Where are your so called colleages?

All very quick to blame the Thai man & the Thai system, but you see no fault at all in the Austarlian's situation.

As mentioned before, being Australian,according to you, should have had sense to follow rules & regulations drummed into him over the years

You sir are as biased as they come, Australians ,you only have a singular blinkered view. Very easy for the young guy not to remember, or admit anything . As the time goes on it's a coping mechanism & justifying the situation to himself.

I wonder what the poor's parents attitude towards him would be if they were aware of all the facts & not what was told by him and the sensationalised TV program.

So far:

Driving licence? ( Bike or International )?

Drinking?

Eratic driving?

No helmets?

I do feel very sorry for them, but I also believe in fair reporting & comments from in your words such knowledgable, educated & trained people.

I’m a bit confused, what is it I have said wrong? I just expressed my view about the comments from others regarding the wearing of a helmet!

[ydraw]

Very easy for the young guy not to remember, or admit anything .

He doesn't need to remember or admit anything, the incident was captured on CCTV and clearly shows a speeding driver crashing into them from behind. It could not be more cut and dried.

If you watched the video in its entirety, the police tried to pretend for a while that the video did not exist, and threatened to hold his passport. Once he lawyered up and let them know he had the footage, they let him go. Disgusting.

Edited November 30, 2012 by ydraw

[Oak]

The young lady is gone, sad & no discussion will change that.

Just amazed at some people's attitude & comprehension.

To softgeorge,chooka, chrissables & co:

where do you practice your field of accident investigation?

Where are your so called colleages?

All very quick to blame the Thai man & the Thai system, but you see no fault at all in the Austarlian's situation.

As mentioned before, being Australian,according to you, should have had sense to follow rules & regulations drummed into him over the years

You sir are as biased as they come, Australians ,you only have a singular blinkered view. Very easy for the young guy not to remember, or admit anything . As the time goes on it's a coping mechanism & justifying the situation to himself.

I wonder what the poor's parents attitude towards him would be if they were aware of all the facts & not what was told by him and the sensationalised TV program.

So far:

Driving licence? ( Bike or International )?

Drinking?

Eratic driving?

No helmets?

I do feel very sorry for them, but I also believe in fair reporting & comments from in your words such knowledgable, educated & trained people.

This is all very well but where do you stand on extorting large sums of money from victims?

Sure Carmine. I as a foreigner it's against my grain, I live here so I tend to accept the cultural quirk as previously explained.

I also understand his reaction to that propsal / request.

But I still fail to understand where the document he was asked to sign was a confession, it was never shown, as far as I can see no one else has seen it or the translation, his interpratation.

Why was the Australian Embassy not advised of his dilemna? Was there any feeling of guilt?Surely he would have been insured, a quick call would have given him an idea on procedures.

No mention of funds transferring hands,only it would have cost so much .......................................

Too many unanswerd questions & loopholes for anyone to pass a justified judgement.

Some of the posters on here, treat some foreignerswith a hollier then thou attitude.