At Least 27 Dead In Connecticut School Shooting - Cbs News

[Potosi]

Guns are a huge business in the US, and it's a market protected by interventionist measures to make sure American customers, and Mexican drug cartells pay top $. They can't buy a modern Russian AK-105 for less than $ 200, but if it has to be an assault rifle, cheapest it's a variant of the M16 for 4 or more times the price. Then think about the businesses that go along with guns, like security, or metal detectors that are just everywhere nowadays. To lose guns would be more severe than to lose the automobile makers for the US.

[tideout]

The US is a violent country. It's history is full of violence within the country and it seems constantly involved in violent conflict around the globe. Some of the most popular video games for kids re-enact warfare and violence. It's not a surprise then that the violence turns inward in horrible ways.

The mental gymnastics and b.s. you'll hear regarding "gun rights" from the right are nothing more than a form of American madness in my opinion. It's hard to imagine a country and culture that's so obsessed with it's self centered "individualistic rights" to the extent that it takes priority over it's youngest and most innocent, but that is in fact what you have in the US.

[DocN]

<p>

I'm all for some gun control, but what happened here was a failure of our health care system, or lack there of. Please also notice that a man in China stabbed 22 children yesterday.

This statement is so wrong, I don't even know where to start!

Okay...first: the fact that you have a healthcare system of this kind, is due to the same people, who want to put a gun into the hand of every US citizen: the right-wingers, the tea-baggers, the republicans...People like Glen Beck, who tell you, that universal, government controlled, health care- system is equal to turning the great nation of the USA into communist Russia or facist Germany.

The SAME people!

Second: am I right by implying that you are saying, the (we don't know yet how this plays out, but anyways) mentally unstable shooter should have been taken better care of? I am right to assume you are meaning "institutionalized"?

Well, I have a different kind of suggestion. What about letting him stay in a caring, loving environment like...lets say ...his mother house...but NOT ALLOWING HIS MOM -an elementary school teacher- TO BE ARMED UP TO HER EYELIDS and her mentally instable son TO HAVE ACCESS TO THE ARSENAL??

Huh? Maybe it makes sense, that if you have mentally unstable children, it would be okay to have them at home, but not a closet full of weapons.

I know...gun- control is for pussies and absolute hippie -stuff...but in this and other cases, it would have saved lives!

OF CHILDREN!

And third: yeah, we noticed! 22 kids stabbed- in China- by a man!

Great point!

Only one slight difference: THEY LIVE!

If he had a gun, they would be dead and at least that point of yours would have made a point!

(edited because somehow half of the rant vanished)

Edited December 15, 2012 by DocN

[mamypoko]

<p>

I'm all for some gun control, but what happened here was a failure of our health care system, or lack there of. Please also notice that a man in China stabbed 22 children yesterday.

This statement is so wrong, I don't even know where to start!

Okay...first: the fact that you have a healthcare system of this kind, is due to the same people, who want to put a gun into the hand of every US citizen: the right-wingers, the tea-baggers, the republicans...People like Glen Beck, who tell you, that universal, government controlled, health care- system is equal to turning the great nation of the USA into communist Russia or facist Germany.

The SAME people!

Second: am I right by implying that you are saying, the (we don't know yet how this plays out, but anyways) mentally unstable shooter should have been taken better care of? I am right to assume you are meaning "institutionalized"?

Well, I have a different kind of suggestion. What about letting him stay in a caring, loving environment like...lets say ...his mother house...but NOT ALLOWING HIS MOM -an elementary school teacher- TO BE ARMED UP TO HER EYELIDS and her mentally instable son TO HAVE ACCESS TO THE ARSENAL??

Huh? Maybe it makes sense, that if you have mentally unstable children, it would be okay to have them at home, but not a closet%

You're completely correct. What I meant to say is a health care system that we do NOT (yet) have.

Yes, in a perfect world, the shooter would have long been identified as a risk to himself and other and thus, treated....his brother knew he had "Problems".

edit: Yes, we also agree on his access to his mother's guns.

Go ahead and PM me the other half of the rant...just don't pick up a gun or a knife (live or die...both could hurt me)

Edited December 15, 2012 by mamypoko

[theblether]

Here's a report from UK MSN about some of the teachers and childrens eyewitness accounts

http://news.uk.msn.com/world/sandy-hook-massacre-tales-of-teachers-heroism

Edited December 15, 2012 by theblether

[tinfoilhat]

no one is attempting minimize the horror of these shocking events. Quite the contrary, i mean to give them the respect they deserve

what i find offensive is people who take such tragedies as an excuse to wax lyrical and turn the thing around to make it about themselves.

in this case a forum spat.

that, to me truly is self indulgent nonsense.

Edited December 15, 2012 by tinfoilhat

[Meetoo]

I'm all for some gun control, but what happened here was a failure of our health care system, or lack there of. Please also notice that a man in China stabbed 22 children yesterday.

And why has this not made International news...?? Well I shouldn't say that but I do watch the news and didn't see anything about this ..?? Man we are living in a very scary world!

[NomadJoe]

This is tragic every sane person must be asking why and grieving for those innocent children, their parents relatives and freinds.

I just wish people wouldn't turn is into a political argument about guns.

Dunblane in Scotland where 90% plus of the population don't carry or own guns yet in 1966 43-year-old Thomas Hamilton entered the school armed with four handguns shooting and killing sixteen children and one adult before committing suicide

Hungerford in England 27-year-old Michael Robert Ryan got hold of 2 semi automatic rifles and a handgun, then shot and killed sixteen people including his mother, and wounded fifteen others, then fatally shot himself.

Cumbria in England 2 June 2010 , Derrick Bird, killed 12 people and injured 11 others before killing himself.

These people all had one thing in common they were insane or at the very least mentally unblanced and when they decided to commit these unspeakable acts even the strict Britsh gun laws failed to stop them.

The vast vast majority of American who own guns probably have never even fired the things and what I would like to know is why do people who are obviously mentally ill (As his brother clearlly stated he was) not put somewhere where they can't commit acts like this?

You mention three cases in the UK. This is over 25 years (Dunblane 1996, not 1966, I accept this is a typo) So three

cases in 25 years. Three is too many. Just saying. What a terrible event, my thoughts are with those affected. RIP

And to add to that, 3000 children are killed by guns (murders, accidental shootings, and suicides) each year in the US. That is a Sandy Hook massacre almost every other day!!! But where is the outcry about that? Why isn't the president crying at press conferences about that?

There were 8,775 murders by firearm in the US last year. There were 58 murders by firearm in the UK last year. Per capita that's 290 murders in the UK using guns vs 8,775 in the US!!

[mamypoko]

I'm all for some gun control, but what happened here was a failure of our health care system, or lack there of. Please also notice that a man in China stabbed 22 children yesterday.

And why has this not made International news...?? Well I shouldn't say that but I do watch the news and didn't see anything about this ..?? Man we are living in a very scary world!

TV is international news...so...hahaha...you heard it here first. Don't be scared, most of life is grand.

Did you mean China...? read the whole thread shipmate

Edited December 15, 2012 by mamypoko

[F430murci]

no one is attempting minimize the horror of these shocking events. Quite the contrary, i mean to give them the respect they deserve

what i find offensive is people who take such tragedies as an excuse to wax lyrical and turn the thing around to make it about themselves.

in this case a forum spat.

that, to me truly is self indulgent nonsense.

Called human nature when awful stuff hits home. Empathy. Don't be a sour pus who is the one making it about oneself from attention perspective. Empathy is more powerful than sympathy. The world needs more of it.

[Jingthing]

Called human nature when awful stuff hits home. Empathy. Don't be a sour pus who is the one making it about oneself from attention perspective. Empathy is more powerful than sympathy. The world needs more of it.

Yeah, this event made me think back to when I was in American elementary school in a school that looked like the one in Newtown. My generation had some traumas too and they were actually pretty bad at the time, but comparing them to what those kids in that school have dealt with is kind of mind blowing. My traumas in the 1960s were: the shock of a beloved president Kennedy assassinated; the Cuban missile crisis (I was in a target city, we had a bomb shelter, duck and cover, and I had nightmares about planes dropping bombs); one year a local serial killer of children was on the loose for months (fear and nightmares); then there was dodge ball . Childhood even in the best of times can be DARKER than most adults sentimentalize about. But again remembering my childhood nightmares and what it was like to be in elementary school, comparing to those kids, right now ... feeling very bad for those kids, obviously the dead but very much so for the living as well. Really, the idea of mass shooters at schools wasn't even close to being in people's consciousness then. Now, it is, when's the NEXT one gonna be? Edited December 15, 2012 by Jingthing

[Chicog]

"Meanwhile in Alabama authorities say a man opened fire in a hospital, wounding an officer and two employees before he was fatally shot by police.

Birmingham Police Sergeant Johnny Williams said the injuries suffered by the officer and employees are not threatening.

He said police were called because a man with a gun was walking through St. Vincent's Hospital on Saturday morning.

When he was confronted by officers, he started shooting."

We don't get a lot of this in the UK, yet it's fair to say we have our share of nutters.

Edited December 15, 2012 by Chicog

[fame1nexpleta]

A lot of missing the forest for the trees here.

These atrociously violent acts by young American males are the symptoms of an ill society. It's been painful realizing this only the latest in a consistent string of similar tragedies, continuously being produced through some faults in our American culture to which we are too blind or weak to notice. Expect Americans to widely attribute these events to poor implementation of some government policy, while failing to reflect on how they treat, lead, and value one another.

[copa8]

I'm all for some gun control, but what happened here was a failure of our health care system, or lack there of. Please also notice that a man in China stabbed 22 children yesterday.

Please also notice that of the 22 children stabbed, NONE died.

But had the culprit been using a gun, then the odds are there would've been many deaths.

[gohmer]

Just to remind those who are not familiar with American law or society, Obama has nothing to do with this. Nothing at all. Gun laws are rooted in our constitution for one reason, originally to keep our government from ever becoming like the one that we repelled during our revolution. Plain and simple, its constitutional law that every President since Washington has had to uphold. The only thing any President can do is to appoint Supreme Court Justices who favor changing the constitution and then drive a constitutional amendment regarding the 2nd amendment, which he/she can't do unless one retires or dies - its a life long position. Anyone on this forum relating this issue to Obama is simple ig - nor - ant about the issue.

This is a huge blow to our culture and society, but it is clearly not an American issue alone - Norway has very strict guns laws and one guy killed 77 random, innocent people last year, but I don't here a bunch of derogatory statements about Norway, just the ones about the guy that did the killing. Every time something bad happens in America, all the twits come out in force to babble. Even in Thailand, there are university students shooting each other over rivalries.

[radiochaser]

Logical consequence of the too liberal Arms law in the U.S., where every criminal can buy arms in the next shop around the corner. Responsible is at the end the Republican Party, which opposites any change to arms trade laws.

The National Instant Criminal Background Check System, or NICS, is all about saving lives and protecting people from harm—by not letting guns and explosives fall into the wrong hands. It also ensures the timely transfer of firearms to eligible gun buyers.

Mandated by the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993 and launched by the FBI on November 30, 1998, NICS is used by Federal Firearms Licensees (FFLs) to instantly determine whether a prospective buyer is eligible to buy firearms or explosives. Before ringing up the sale, cashiers call in a check to the FBI or to other designated agencies to ensure that each customer does not have a criminal record or isn’t otherwise ineligible to make a purchase. More than 100 million such checks have been made in the last decade, leading to more than 700,000 denials.

http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/nics

It didn't stop James Holmes creating a veritable arsenal and getting thousands of rounds of ammo online. But as one gun "enthusiast" said about him: ""If I only had 6,000 rounds for my AR-15s, I'd literally feel naked". How can you reason with mental cases like that?

Well since you bring up James Holmes, I offer up this link about him. http://www.infowars.com/murder-under-hypnosis-the-james-holmes-story-takes-a-familiar-turn/

When I read things like this, I am unsure if this stuff is true, conspiracy theories, or outright fiction.

As to the issue of thousands of rounds of ammunition. When I was working in California, a shooting range was close enough to my office to be seen and heard. Depending on my work schedule and the time of year (i.e. when the sun went down) I would stop there to shoot before my work shift or after my work shift. I worked rotating shifts so would have time after day shift, mid shift or before evening shift.

I purchased a case of .22 caliber ammunition as I like to shoot this small caliber out to 100 yards with both pistol and rifle. A case of .22 ammunition had 5000 rounds in it. I expended the entire case in about 10 months!

I have owned firearms since I was 12 years old (I purchased my first rifle in a military Post Exchange) and I am now more than 60 years old. I have never had the urge to shoot people like the deranged individuals such as James Holmes or this most recent shooting by Adam Lanza.

[Jingthing]

Just to remind those who are not familiar with American law or society, Obama has nothing to do with this. Nothing at all. Gun laws are rooted in our constitution for one reason, originally to keep our government from ever becoming like the one that we repelled during our revolution. Plain and simple, its constitutional law that every President since Washington has had to uphold. The only thing any President can do is to appoint Supreme Court Justices who favor changing the constitution and then drive a constitutional amendment regarding the 2nd amendment, which he/she can't do unless one retires or dies - its a life long position. Anyone on this forum relating this issue to Obama is simple ig - nor - ant about the issue.

This is a huge blow to our culture and society, but it is clearly not an American issue alone - Norway has very strict guns laws and one guy killed 77 random, innocent people last year, but I don't here a bunch of derogatory statements about Norway, just the ones about the guy that did the killing. Every time something bad happens in America, all the twits come out in force to babble. Even in Thailand, there are university students shooting each other over rivalries.

Not exactly. The constitution is the constitution. The supreme court is the supreme court. The legislative and executive branches are their own thing too. The supreme court interprets constitutional issues for the current day. The legislative and executive branches create new laws, change existing laws, and end some laws as well. The second amendment, for example, is always open to modern interpretation about how wide or narrow it actually is for so called gun freedoms. For example, not even the most extreme gun advocates would suggest that automatic weapons be sold to all comers, with no ID needed, at every 7-11. The laws do not protect that, and neither does the 2nd amendment. Laws are subject to changes in response to modern conditions and politics, and of course their constitutionality is also subject to question if the supreme court CHOOSES to take up cases challenging them. It's a complex and often slow to change system with built in checks and balances that sometimes work well and sometimes don't. People favoring increased gun control in response to the school massacre and other similar events are fully within their constitutional rights to attempt to change gun LAWS. No they can't change the constitution but they can change the laws IF they can get the laws through the legislative process. No, of course they can't legislate the end of the second amendment and nobody is talking about action to change that anyway, which is possible of course the way other amendments have been added and deleted (google: prohibition). Edited December 15, 2012 by Jingthing

[F430murci]

Bushmaster, not pistols caused most of deaths. Medical examiner just gave statement. He examined 7 bodies of first graders. All had Bushmaster wounds were all shot between 3 and 11 times.

[endure]

A question from an outsider. Simple curiosity - no more. Different States have different laws so is it possible to buy guns in a State with lax laws and then simply take them over the border into a State with strict laws without any legal comeback?

[folium]

It would be nice if the gun lobby types drop the pathetic comparisons with countries outside the USA.

To put things in perspective 2010 saw 636 homicides in the UK, with 60 caused by firearms ( and that year includes the shotgun rampage in Cumbria which claimed 12 lives).

In the USA in 2010 there were 12,995 homicides, with 8775 firearms related. Given that the US population is 5x that of the UK, there is more than a slight statistical blip here.

Goes to show that fixating on 18th century obscure terminology is about as convincing as fundamentalist Christians believing the world was created 6000 years ago and dinosaurs never existed.

Perhaps we have a rerun of the tobacco debate here, namely that action will not be taken until revenue is outweighed by cost both financially and politically....sad state of affairs.

[Jingthing]

A question from an outsider. Simple curiosity - no more. Different States have different laws so is it possible to buy guns in a State with lax laws and then simply take them over the border into a State with strict laws without any legal comeback?

A good question. For example Florida now has ONE MILLION concealed weapon licenses. I think they wouldn't apply outside Florida. It's probably a patchwork for different situations. There are federal laws and state laws for most any issue in the U.S. Just a comment -- sure the gun owners know a lot more! Edited December 15, 2012 by Jingthing

[loserlazer]

What a sad story. 20 small kids man!

Patience for the families.

And how many times more will this happen?

Republicans, their guns and thick headed insensitive politicians and stupid citizens still voting or suporting them on fire arm laws.

i preferred them to be killed instead of those little kids i m sorry.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect App

Edited December 15, 2012 by loserlazer

[radiochaser]

I'm all for some gun control, but what happened here was a failure of our health care system, or lack there of. Please also notice that a man in China stabbed 22 children yesterday.

Well, guns can't be controlled and shouldn't. They were made for this.

But people who own guns should be controlled with tough psychological tests. Random check on gun owners to see how they conceal their guns so to keep it out of reach for everyone.

This will create new jobs as well.

Oh that will work well. Felons and teenagers can already buy assault rifles at gun shows and off the streets. Truth is, most people that feel the need to own and do own assault rifles and special license for machine guns have mental anomalies. Normal people just don't feel the need to have a gun.

The above statement appears to be written as if anyone can walk into a gun show and buy anything they want here in the United States!

OK, again, felons cannot legally buy firearms at gun shows! This is a complete fallacy! There are federal and state laws that address the issue of if and when a felon can buy a firearm!

A person considered to be a felon may only buy a firearm if they go through a stringent process that may have to be done with either or both the Bureau of Tobacco and Firearms (BATF) and/or state and local law enforcement agencies. Only after those agencies have determined that the ownership of a firearm by a person previously convicted of a felony violation of a "criminal law" and would not be a threat to society due to such ownership of a firearm, then that person will be able to purchase a firearm! I emphasize "criminal law" for a reason. You can violate a "Federal Legislative law" and end up with the brand of "felon". Criminal and Legislative laws are different.

There is a small number of these people in the United States. Most times once you have been convicted of violating a "criminal" law that causes you to be branded a "felon", then you are never allowed to legally own a firearm again!

Teenagers purchasing firearms at gun shows????? Not even if that teenager is in the military and has a combat infantryman Military Occupational Specialty (MOS) in which he has extensive training with the current military rifle and how to use to use that rifle to kill human beings!

He cannot legally purchase a firearm at a gun show, period! To say so is to perpetuate a myth or even an outright lie! I believe you have to be of the age of majority, or 21 years of age, to be a legal purchaser of a firearm.

Now, felons and teenagers purchasing on the street? Yes, that can be done. I participated in several undercover firearm purchases in California years ago. Every gun that I purchased "on the street" so to speak were stolen firearms. Two of the glocks I purchased were stolen from police officers!

There are also "straw man" gun sales. A person that can legally buy a firearm buys one, then sells it to someone not legally eligible to purchase a firearm.

[radiochaser]

A question from an outsider. Simple curiosity - no more. Different States have different laws so is it possible to buy guns in a State with lax laws and then simply take them over the border into a State with strict laws without any legal comeback?

A good question. For example Florida now has ONE MILLION concealed weapon licenses. I think they wouldn't apply outside Florida. It's probably a patchwork for different situations. There are federal laws and state laws for most any issue in the U.S. Just a comment -- sure the gun owners know a lot more!

Concealed Carry permits issued by the state of Florida are legal for concealed carry in several other states. If each state accepts the others permit then a reciprocal carry is allowed.

I, for instance, can legally carry my hand gun concealed in Florida and several other states as well.

Edited December 15, 2012 by radiochaser

[Jingthing]

The world knows there is something uniquely American about this gun sickness even if many Americans don't get it:

These unthinkable but nonetheless recurring bloodbaths by shooting are peculiarly, if not exclusively, American, a stain on its image that gets brutally bigger as time goes by.

It is this combustible mix of angry American young men, often disturbed and usually white, spurred on by the pervasive and always growing presence of limitless violence in popular American culture, together with the easy-access, open market of guns and ammo, which together produce these shooting slaughters with such sickening regularity.

http://www.haaretz.com/blogs/west-of-eden/the-american-malignancy-and-the-slaughter-of-the-innocents-in-connecticut.premium-1.484990

[Jingthing]

A question from an outsider. Simple curiosity - no more. Different States have different laws so is it possible to buy guns in a State with lax laws and then simply take them over the border into a State with strict laws without any legal comeback?

A good question. For example Florida now has ONE MILLION concealed weapon licenses. I think they wouldn't apply outside Florida. It's probably a patchwork for different situations. There are federal laws and state laws for most any issue in the U.S. Just a comment -- sure the gun owners know a lot more!

Concealed Carry permits issued by the state of Florida are legal for concealed carry in several other states. If each state accepts the others permit then a reciprocal carry is allowed.

I, for instance, can legally carry my hand gun concealed in Florida and several other states as well.

Thanks for that. Worse than I thought.

[F430murci]

A question from an outsider. Simple curiosity - no more. Different States have different laws so is it possible to buy guns in a State with lax laws and then simply take them over the border into a State with strict laws without any legal comeback?

A good question. For example Florida now has ONE MILLION concealed weapon licenses. I think they wouldn't apply outside Florida. It's probably a patchwork for different situations. There are federal laws and state laws for most any issue in the U.S. Just a comment -- sure the gun owners know a lot more!

Not sure about any differences, but there is nothing to stop it. No border checks. Go to gun show in Texas or Wisconsin. Take it to Florida or anywhere. You can buy used from private individuals anywhere as long as not fully auto which is registered and get you into big trouble.

[radiochaser]

It is rare to see this type of massacre in the rest of the world, only in America is it somewhat common place.

Mexico, as US good ole boys loves em some close to broder Texas gun shows where they can set up and sell assault rifles. American capitalism at it greatest. Cartel guys come up and pay nice premiums for all assault weapons that they can find. Great for US economy as gun dealers get rich by selling to their non licensed buddies who get even richer selling to felons and Mexican cartel members. No wonder Texas loves them some guns and the NRA as gun trade keeps their economy above water. Flat bed semi the other day got stopped in Mexico with 478,000 rounds of ammo after going from Laredo to Neuva Laredo. Ammo was easy to see and in the open, but US BP and Laredo cops thought it was cool to watch it driving around and cross border. Good ole boy NRA capitalism. Better to drive new truck than old Datsum truck. Guns and bullets don't kill so no worry seeking this stuff to felons and cartel members. NRA and sellers not responisle for their actions.

Do you mean this story?

http://www.kvia.com/news/US-Truck-Driver-That-Took-Ammo-To-Mexico-Not-Charged-At-This-Time/-/391068/15242782/-/ogtivyz/-/index.html

http://www.elpasotimes.com/news/ci_22081753/truck-driver-talks-about-time-mexican-prison

[radiochaser]

no one is attempting minimize the horror of these shocking events. Quite the contrary, i mean to give them the respect they deserve

what i find offensive is people who take such tragedies as an excuse to wax lyrical and turn the thing around to make it about themselves.

in this case a forum spat.

that, to me truly is self indulgent nonsense.

I like this response to what was written better than your first. Thank you for explaining.

[radiochaser]

Called human nature when awful stuff hits home. Empathy. Don't be a sour pus who is the one making it about oneself from attention perspective. Empathy is more powerful than sympathy. The world needs more of it.

Yeah, this event made me think back to when I was in American elementary school in a school that looked like the one in Newtown. My generation had some traumas too and they were actually pretty bad at the time, but comparing them to what those kids in that school have dealt with is kind of mind blowing. My traumas in the 1960s were: the shock of a beloved president Kennedy assassinated; the Cuban missile crisis (I was in a target city, we had a bomb shelter, duck and cover, and I had nightmares about planes dropping bombs); one year a local serial killer of children was on the loose for months (fear and nightmares); then there was dodge ball . Childhood even in the best of times can be DARKER than most adults sentimentalize about. But again remembering my childhood nightmares and what it was like to be in elementary school, comparing to those kids, right now ... feeling very bad for those kids, obviously the dead but very much so for the living as well. Really, the idea of mass shooters at schools wasn't even close to being in people's consciousness then. Now, it is, when's the NEXT one gonna be?

I was 14 in 1964, when I returned to a school in Louisiana. One day I was sent to the principals office for some reason. In a corner of his office were several .22 caliber rifles and various shotguns.

I asked a friend about it. He told me it was squirrel season. Some of the kids would bring their rifle or shotgun to school so they could go hunting right after school let out. Each kid had to have a written note from their parents saying their child could go hunting squirrels after school.

The note had to have a telephone number that the principal could call to verify that the parent knew their child brought the squirrel gun to school and could go squirrel hunting after school. If the family did not have a telephone, then the note had to specify when a parent would stop by the school and speak with the principal.

If the kid forged a note or did not have a note giving him permission to bring the squirrel gun to school and/or to go hunting afterwards, then the kid was expelled from school and the parent had to pick up the gun. If a parent did not pick up the gun, then it was given to the local sheriff department and confiscated.

This was at a time when there were little if any government support services, only local church charity organizations that would help out people that were too poor to provide for themselves with money. The only time many families had meat or fish was when they shot or caught it themselves.

No child ever threatened anyone at school with a firearm at any time!

Edited December 15, 2012 by radiochaser