Insulation

[h90]

I just bought a house and in my opinion there should be an isolation (like in Europe for winter, here for the hot can not come in).

I found till now some glasfiber with aluminum foil in 3 and 6 inch and a kind of PE bubble material with aluminium foil.

I went to the HomePro and they were absolut clue less. And the brochures if they have any are all in thai language

Has anyone experience?

I found a K and a R value, what are they telling? And what are "good" values?

How about moisture, do I get mositure problems due to it?

How do I mount these things?

What are the prices, are there cheaper provider than homepro?

Edited February 21, 2006 by penzman

[lopburi3]

If you do not use air conditioning insulation is not too critical here and most homes will only have some fiberglass batts covering ceiling to help prevent it becoming a radiator. All home supply type stores sell some type of fiberglass as it has been made here for 20 years or so.

If you have steel roof supports you might consider one of the air driven turbo fans to take the hot air out of attic space as I believe they work very well. I have a timber roof so it is an advantage to keep the temperature high enough to prevent termites living up there so don't have any experience.

[h90]

I definitly will use air cons, it will be an office, but also contains a special machine which should work at 20 degree (25 will also do it but it should not be warmer).

The last 3 years I lived in many different houses here and I never saw any with any isolation. As well noone I talk with saw any sense of it, but everyone knows the BTU of their aircons like the Horsepower of the cars.....

(If you think I only came in contact with idiots, you might be right.....).

The roof is made of steel and that fans, never heared of it, but it absolute make sense, are that these steel things, with a thing looking with like a big ball on it and sometimes they rotate slow??.

Looks terrible but it makes sense to take out the hot air there.

From the uppest room to the roof there is just a 2-3 mm "paper like" material connected with wires to the steel roof. I thought of putting a double metal aluminium foiled glas fiber on top of it, but not sure if that is smart or if there is something better and if I get moisture and some fungi than...

If you do not use air conditioning insulation is not too critical here and most homes will only have some fiberglass batts covering ceiling to help prevent it becoming a radiator. All home supply type stores sell some type of fiberglass as it has been made here for 20 years or so.

If you have steel roof supports you might consider one of the air driven turbo fans to take the hot air out of attic space as I believe they work very well. I have a timber roof so it is an advantage to keep the temperature high enough to prevent termites living up there so don't have any experience.

[donx]

h90,

I suggest you change the title of this thread to "Insolation" as the thread's current title is very misleading. I thought you were going to discuss life in a remote (isolated) village. I'm only trying to be helpful as I assume English isn't your first language.

A few years ago, my wife built a bungalow and added insolation to the ceiling which definitely helps keep the house cool. I don't know what she used since I wasn't in Thailand during the construction.

[lopburi3]

Thread title changed. Yes I was talking about those round fans like you see above cooking areas and on factories. They also use in homes and if on the backside of roof will not look that bad. Believe they will do a lot to draw air up from under eves and exit it out above the roof.

[h90]

sorry lol.

I mixed my german into the english (Isolierung=Insolation).

I make this mistake all the time and for any reason the british don't want to change their language even it is so confusing

I still fight with my wife about it, as she sees it as pure waste of money (at the same time she complains that it is so hot, at the same time she does not turn on the aircondition, as our staff is in the same office and aircon for the staff is waste of money so she prefers to don't have it herself (and yes, she is chinese (half)).

(her sister stays in a house without electricity, because she did not pay the bill and having electricity is anyway only a waste of money )

h90,

I suggest you change the title of this thread to "Insolation" as the thread's current title is very misleading. I thought you were going to discuss life in a remote (isolated) village. I'm only trying to be helpful as I assume English isn't your first language.

A few years ago, my wife built a bungalow and added insolation to the ceiling which definitely helps keep the house cool. I don't know what she used since I wasn't in Thailand during the construction.

[autonomous_unit]

Just FYI, "insolation" means the amount of sunlight that is coming in (incoming solar energy). The word "insulation" means a mechanism to isolate/separate (make insular), e.g. electical insulation on wires or thermal insulation in your house. That said, the two topics are closely related in practice.

I've found that the downstairs northern room of our house is much cooler than the southern upstairs room... the upstairs is acting as an insulator (air gap) between the roof and downstairs, and it also gets less direct solar energy in the afternoon. I guess I will have to see how it is in peak summer... (does the sun ever cast shadows to the south here at 9 degrees north?)

It does seem odd that even new construction, which is definitely designed assuming air-con, still has poor insulation value in the walls, ceiling, windows, and doors. This topic keeps recurring here on thaivisa, and I am not sure anyone has a definitive answer as far as insulation tradeoffs for moisture, rot, pests, molds, etc. I know you can get "sick building syndrome" when you try to hard to seal a place up for efficiency, particularly if the building materials or contents are not stringently controlled to have low emissions of toxic fumes. I've contemplated shutting all the windows and getting an air filter just to cut down on the ridiculous amounts of dust that waft in every day in the "fresh" air!

[steveromagnino]

Just FYI, "insolation" means the amount of sunlight that is coming in (incoming solar energy). The word "insulation" means a mechanism to isolate/separate (make insular), e.g. electical insulation on wires or thermal insulation in your house. That said, the two topics are closely related in practice.

I've found that the downstairs northern room of our house is much cooler than the southern upstairs room... the upstairs is acting as an insulator (air gap) between the roof and downstairs, and it also gets less direct solar energy in the afternoon. I guess I will have to see how it is in peak summer... (does the sun ever cast shadows to the south here at 9 degrees north?)

It does seem odd that even new construction, which is definitely designed assuming air-con, still has poor insulation value in the walls, ceiling, windows, and doors. This topic keeps recurring here on thaivisa, and I am not sure anyone has a definitive answer as far as insulation tradeoffs for moisture, rot, pests, molds, etc. I know you can get "sick building syndrome" when you try to hard to seal a place up for efficiency, particularly if the building materials or contents are not stringently controlled to have low emissions of toxic fumes. I've contemplated shutting all the windows and getting an air filter just to cut down on the ridiculous amounts of dust that waft in every day in the "fresh" air!

If constructed out of concrete block, then that is ample insulation for walls.... many new dwellings ahve quite seals on windows/doors, older houses converted are abismal sometimes. I am not sure what more you expect; the new blocks from Siam City Cemend with the insulation built in or anythign built by L& H for the most part rates well in terms of insulation anyway.

For ceiling, there is more need for heating vs. cooling, because the hot air in cold climate goes out the ceiling.

Thai traditional ways... big overhangs, high ceiling area with steep slope, trees for shade, timber construction....all good for insulation from heat, but not so good for using aircon....

[h90]

yes, plus these devices for hot shower.... In a country with so much sun light there are so few solar heater for hot water. (Even in the last few years there are a lot more than before). We are also fighting with a lot of dust. Don't know why there is so much here.

Just FYI, "insolation" means the amount of sunlight that is coming in (incoming solar energy). The word "insulation" means a mechanism to isolate/separate (make insular), e.g. electical insulation on wires or thermal insulation in your house. That said, the two topics are closely related in practice.

I've found that the downstairs northern room of our house is much cooler than the southern upstairs room... the upstairs is acting as an insulator (air gap) between the roof and downstairs, and it also gets less direct solar energy in the afternoon. I guess I will have to see how it is in peak summer... (does the sun ever cast shadows to the south here at 9 degrees north?)

It does seem odd that even new construction, which is definitely designed assuming air-con, still has poor insulation value in the walls, ceiling, windows, and doors. This topic keeps recurring here on thaivisa, and I am not sure anyone has a definitive answer as far as insulation tradeoffs for moisture, rot, pests, molds, etc. I know you can get "sick building syndrome" when you try to hard to seal a place up for efficiency, particularly if the building materials or contents are not stringently controlled to have low emissions of toxic fumes. I've contemplated shutting all the windows and getting an air filter just to cut down on the ridiculous amounts of dust that waft in every day in the "fresh" air!

[tutsiwarrior]

I recently installed 6" thick fiberglass insulation in the roof space of my 2 storey shop house (A/C in the upstairs bedroom). An almost incredible 10C reduction in the bedroom ambient was the result...turned the A/C off. I'm waiting to see what the difference will be in summer.

I bought the insulation at HomePro in Rangsit, 18.9k baht for 100 m2 for two side by side houses...comes in 1 x 3 meter blankets. Absolutely worth the money and effort.

[autonomous_unit]

If constructed out of concrete block, then that is ample insulation for walls.... many new dwellings ahve quite seals on windows/doors, older houses converted are abismal sometimes. I am not sure what more you expect; the new blocks from Siam City Cemend with the insulation built in or anythign built by L& H for the most part rates well in terms of insulation anyway.

For ceiling, there is more need for heating vs. cooling, because the hot air in cold climate goes out the ceiling.

Thai traditional ways... big overhangs, high ceiling area with steep slope, trees for shade, timber construction....all good for insulation from heat, but not so good for using aircon....

I'm not sure what the walls of houses we viewed were made from, but with the afternoon sun angling in on the outside under the eaves, the wall on the inside felt like a radiator! I compare this to even low-grade tract homes built in the 1970s in California, where the wood frame has a thin layer of "stucco" on the outside, a vapor barrier, four inches of fiberglass insulation, and a layer of drywall. The hot summer sun did not bake through the walls so much.

Also, the total area of single-pane sliding windows and doors you see in these houses is an issue, both in terms of insolation and just ambiant infra-red. And if you visit a place w/ air-con already running, see how much cool air draft you can feel around the doors and windows while walking around outside the place! I was shocked at how leaky they were on average.

I agree though that you have to take the whole "system" of the house and yard into account. We opted for some large trees for just this reason, though I am still wary of the whole process since it is abnormal to transplant mature trees where I come from...

[CGW]

"Foam" spray underside of roofs tiles? see Real estate thread current in Pattaya forum

[penzman]

The foam spray was discussed here a while ago.

See this topic

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/index.php?sh...3&hl=insulation

[phuketsiam]

I would reccomend laying the glassfibre/aluminium stuff over the ceiling and installing a fan to draw air and ventilate the roof, this is quite a cheap option and will make a huge difference to your ac costs

[scotsman]

yes I got my house sprayed with foam and also got a electric fan extractor that has a temp switch set at 30 deg to extract the air out of the roof space with a small plastic extract comming out at the overhang of the roof so it looks nice but it works very well.

[phuketsiam]

I also heard of people in the USA using a photo-electic solar panal to power the extractor fan

[h90]

one man recommended foam, but what he means is called in Austria "Styropor" not sure if it has the same name worldwide. It is a white material made from Polystyrol. I don't know for the new ones but old refridgerator used it also.

Is that material good?

He does not want to use this glas fiber, because it causes cancer. I know that was a topic 10-20 years ago in europe, but I thought there were some changes in production and now it is harmless, is it?

[lopburi3]

Fiberglass dangers

From reading above believe the only real danger for cancer is probably eating it as your staple diet.

[h90]

real danger for cancer is probably eating it as your staple diet.

###### and exactly that was what I intended to do

[steveromagnino]

real danger for cancer is probably eating it as your staple diet.

###### and exactly that was what I intended to do

Well it does look a bit like candy floss yum yum.

[Carmine6]

one man recommended foam, but what he means is called in Austria "Styropor" not sure if it has the same name worldwide. It is a white material made from Polystyrol. I don't know for the new ones but old refridgerator used it also.

Is that material good?

He does not want to use this glas fiber, because it causes cancer. I know that was a topic 10-20 years ago in europe, but I thought there were some changes in production and now it is harmless, is it?

You originally asked about R value and K value. These are a way of comparing the effectiveness of the two. The higher the R value, the better. The lower the K value the better. In the US, there are tables of recommended R values depending on where you live. They are cumulative so you can layer up to get a higher value.

Since Thai houses aren't as sealed up as US houses, I think you wouldn't need as much insulation as recommended for the US. Basically you could get it, but past maybe R-10 to R-15 it might be a waste of money since the air leaking in/out gets around the insulation anyway.

R-Value of some materials

Thailand is probably closest in need to 4 or 6 on this map.

R Value recommendations for the US

K Value and relation to R Value

As for moisture, it's mainly a problem where there's a sharp temperature difference (think outside of a bottle of cold beer). It'd be more of a problem in a sealed up wall than a ceiling where enough air usually circulates to evaporate moisture. Plus since air is normally hotter near the ceiling, the temperature difference from there to the attic isn't as great.

[JAS21]

yes I got my house sprayed with foam and also got a electric fan extractor that has a temp switch set at 30 deg to extract the air out of the roof space with a small plastic extract comming out at the overhang of the roof so it looks nice but it works very well.

This is an interesting subject.

We have a new house just on the edge of BK..not cheap...It has insulation in the roof, on the ceiling ..however it looked as though it was thrown in. So company went into the loft and improved it a little. Big problem is all those wires which support the ceiling. We are still awaiting further work. Apparently insulation contractor had a lot of insulation 'left over' so looks like he did a bad job on every house

We are considering some type of fan either blowing into the loft from the the top of stairs area and maybe another fan sucking out the roof..anyone done this.

[CGW]

We are considering some type of fan either blowing into the loft from the the top of stairs area and maybe another fan sucking out the roof..anyone done this.

This would be both costly & overkill? I believe.

Roof should already be vented? having a fan blowing air in would assist cooling, but not from in the house - would be too expensive, as you would be putting conditioned air in, if you could put fan in a cool shaded part of the house on an end wall, you would be pushing out hot air and replacing it with cooler air for sure. Just my thoughts, I'm no expert, but have prviously looked into this subject.

Cheers

[phuketsiam]

yeah, just one fan placed high in the roof set to extract the warmer air out, cooler air will flow in from under the eaves and keep the roof space a little cooler, and reduce any condencation too

Edited February 22, 2006 by phuketsiam

[jonik]

styropor is a great isolating material and cheap to , covered with stucco this makes a great wall isolation. To solve the condense problem you should add plastic between the bricks and the styropor. If you have 35 degredes outside and 20 inside this makes and big difference and will cause condense.

[johnnyk]

IMO, fiberglass is old-tech.

The fibres can cause problems and if the fiberglass gets wet (roof leaks etc) the stuff has to be replaced.

Styro is much better and I think the thin silver blanket is best of all.

[elkangorito]

There is certainly no need for an electric extraction fan in the roof. It will become an added source of maintenance & an added electricity cost. Heat can be freely & effectively extracted from the ceiling space by using a "Whirly". Actually, 2 or more of these devices in the ceiling space are very effective. They are cheap to buy & easy to install.

Ceiling Insulation.

There are many varieties of ceiling insulation but by far the cheapest & safest is fibreglass. Wool (from sheep) insulation is superior to fibreglass but more expensive & difficult to source. Wool insulation is also very fire retardant, does not give off poisonous fumes when it is under extreme heat stress, is good for people who are hyperallergic (wool is hypoallergenic, fibre glass is not) & easy to install. Very important: if any type of thermal insulation is used in your ceiling, ensure that your electrical wiring is not laid in amongst the insulation. Wiring that is laid amongst such insulation will have a reduced current carrying capacity. In this situation, if your cables get hot from excess current, thermal insulation will help to keep them hotter longer, which can lead to an electrical insulation failure & consequently, a fire.

It is also recommended that Sisalation be placed on the underside of your roofing material (tiles, tin etc). Sisalation is a paper/tar product & will burn but not easily.

In Thailand, many brick homes are "single brick", which affords little to no insulation from the outside heat. Remember, bricks that are hot, stay hot. If one chooses to use a "single brick" design, special heat rejecting bricks can be purchased in Thailand.

A much more effective way to reduce heat transfer when building a brick house, is to use a "double brick with cavity" design. Lots of bricks but very effective. Also greatly reduces outside noises from entering the house.

If the house is not of double brick design, then wall insulation must be considered (if you are serious about reducing energy costs).

Always keep in mind the "fire safety" aspect of insulation. Many of the Foam types are highly flammable & give off poisonous fumes when burnt. They can also "degrade" after a number of years & create undesirable side effects ie hyper allergic reactions etc.

Do not forget Window Insulation, aka tinting. The colour of the tint is not important. What is important is the tint's ability to filter out the "heat-causing" Infra Red radiation. UV radiation does not create much heat at all. Using "shade cloth" instead of window tinting is a more efficient way of doing this but reduces visibility to the outside world.

Edited February 26, 2006 by elkangorito

[Gary A]

Why all the emphasis on ceiling insulation? Heat rises so it makes sense to let it escape through the ceiling. Keep the area above your ceiling well ventilated, tint and seal your windows and insulate the walls if at all possible. Solar powered attic ventilators are a great idea. They only run when there is a lot of sun. Unfortunately they are expensive and not commonly available.

[elkangorito]

Why all the emphasis on ceiling insulation? Heat rises so it makes sense to let it escape through the ceiling. Keep the area above your ceiling well ventilated, tint and seal your windows and insulate the walls if at all possible. Solar powered attic ventilators are a great idea. They only run when there is a lot of sun. Unfortunately they are expensive and not commonly available.

All energy flows from a higher potential to a lower potential, thus heat will go to a cooler area. If you plan on saving energy costs ie air conditioning, insulation is the common sense answer. Your ceiling space is an enclosed area & therefore will act like an oven. This heat will be radiated through the building structures, to the air conditioned areas, therefore increasing the running costs of the a/c. The ceiling is most important to insulate since the "sun" is predominately heating your roof most of the time.

Ask any air conditioning engineer.

[chownah]

Gary A,

Just want to clarify how heat travels.

Heat is transfered in three different ways; radiation, conduction, and convection.

Radiation. All objects emit heat radiation which is called infrared radiation, abbrevieated as "IR". The hotter an object is the more IR it emits. You can feel the IR coming from a stove or a fire...it feels warm or hot. IR can travel through air or glass without heating it but when it strikes most objects its energy is turned from radiant energy to heat in the object that it strikes.

Conduction. If you heat one end of an iron rod the heat will slowly move down its length. This movement of heat is called conduction. Heat travels through solid objects by conduction.

Convection. Convection means to move heat by moving a heated fluid. If you have a tub of water and you heat the bottom, the warm water on the bottom becomes less dense (lighter) and will then float up to the top. This tendencies for fluids (liquids and gases) to float up relative to their cooler fluid surroundings is called convection.

Back to reality. In a room, the hot air will accumulate at the ceiling because of convection. This warm air will heat the ceiling's lower surface by contact...heating by contact is a form of conduction. When the lower surface of the ceiling is heated the heat travels up through the ceiling material by conduction. When the top surface of the ceiling becomes warm it heats the air in contact with it....and this air is warmer than the air around it, it will float upward causing a convection circulation in your attic space.

I think an important thing to remember is that insulation is supposed to keep the heat out so that ideally there won't be hot air accumulating on your ceiling. Then why insulate the ceiling you may ask....the answer is that the sun heats the outer surface of the roof (radiation)...the heat conducts throught the roofing material (conduction) causing the lower surface of the roofing to become hot which then (because it is hot) radiates IR (radiation again) which is absorbed by the upper surface of the ceiling from the radiation and thus gets hot. The heat at the upper surface of the ceiling conducts through the ceiling (conduction again) and then the lower surface of the ceiling gets hot and because it is hot it radiates IR (radiation again) which is absorbed by everyting in the room causing them to get hot....including you.

The purpose of putting insulation above the ceiling is to block the path of the heat from coming down from the attic space.

Edited February 26, 2006 by chownah