Apple Cider Vinegar For Weight Loss ... Any Feedback?

[tropo]

I heartily endorse checking for diabetes and pre-diabetes. Nothing new about that. I am not at all convinced though that going on a prediabetic diet translates into fat people becoming thin for life. Where are the statistics on that? Sounds like another case of some anecdotal stories rather than anything impacting the masses of fat adults who in reality mostly NEVER will not be fat adults.

You have too much to learn and I'm not about to give you a full education on something you obviously know nothing about, and to be honest you don't really seem that interested.

Just a very quick clue....

Pre-diabetics cannot efficiently handle carbohydrates. Carbohydrates are literally poison to people with diabetes and pre-diabetes. High blood sugar causes massive spikes in insulin, which immediately causes the excess blood sugar to be stored as fat. When a pre-diabetic crosses the line to full diabetes things start getting even more ugly.

We don't need stats on this. There are hundreds of scientific studies covering it. It is extremely well known that diabetics tend to be fat. Not all mind you, but the majority are. Pre-diabetes is merely a forerunner to full type 2 diabetes. Some see it as a warning. Others just bury their head in the sand and hope they don't have it.

If you're fat, it should be the very first thing you test for. If blood sugar is not a problem, thyroid hormones should be the next tests done. I've had them all done. I know quite a bit about insulin resistance because I am pre-diabetic and I've worked over many years at controlling my blood sugar naturally (no drugs).

[tropo]

That is an unfounded personal insult.

Seriously? You took that as a personal insult?

[robblok]

JT, it really is about lifestyle changes, people fail because they don't change their lifestyle after losing the weight. If you look at the lifestyle of many Americans (i take them because they are the fattest of them all) its all about food and drinks in giant sizes. So much sugar its unbelievable Its anchored in their lifestyle, so then they diet and successfully loose the weight but fall back in their old habits. That is the problem, the fact that there is so much unhealthy food and in such large quantities available.

Sugar plays according to many a really big role in this much less so as fat. There are some nice documentaries i could show you on youtube about the sugar and i wonder how much sugar your restaurants use. You have no control over this. It still is about portion control JT, granted its not easy and it will take a lifetime.

For you its just not an option you love dining out too much, its a choice you made. But just because other people fail does not mean everyone fails. The faillure is easy to explain by lack of willpower. Yes wilpower will loose out sometimes, but if you slowly diet it will work much better. Problem is many people (me included) want the weight of as fast as possible and will go to extremes. Extremes are much harder to keep and will result in failure with a big group.

Your idea about the apple cider vinnegar if it works and if you were to keep it up is good. Just a reduction of 150 calories a day will give you a loss of 6 kilos a year. But that is real slow progress and often people find it too slow and don't go on with it.

Remember JT you did not get overweight in a day, it also happened by small amounts of calories a day extra. Also you will have to adjust your deficit over time (many people forget that) Because once you start to weigh less (even from lost fat) you burn less. Sports, can help you keep your MBR up.

Tropo is really rigth about the tests on his advice i went to test and found out that even though i was healthy my insulin resistance could become a problem. I ajusted my diet, weight loss went easier and the next test showed great improvement. Also i have had my thyroid tested and its slow meaning i will always have a problem burning as much as the next guy with similar features to me. It sucks.. but that is life, if i had your lifestyle even with your healthy choices i would gain weight because i lacked the control over my food.

So yes you will fail because you choose too, you find other things more important. I can accept that, but what i cant accept is you talking like nothing can be done and its impossible to do. It is not, many guys are overweight and love to drink (not you). Once they give up they will loose weight, they choose not too their choice. Its all about the lifestyle you have and what you think is important. Fact is with so many overweight people its socially acceptable and thus not a high priority for many. Though many guys still want their gf to be slim and small, bit hypercritical if you ask me (i know your gay not applies to you as i have no knowledge of what kind of guys you like or am i interested to know)

[Tolley]

I heartily endorse checking for diabetes and pre-diabetes. Nothing new about that. I am not at all convinced though that going on a prediabetic diet translates into fat people becoming thin for life. Where are the statistics on that? Sounds like another case of some anecdotal stories rather than anything impacting the masses of fat adults who in reality mostly NEVER will not be fat adults.

You have too much to learn and I'm not about to give you a full education on something you obviously know nothing about, and to be honest you don't really seem that interested.

Just a very quick clue....

Pre-diabetics cannot efficiently handle carbohydrates. Carbohydrates are literally poison to people with diabetes and pre-diabetes. High blood sugar causes massive spikes in insulin, which immediately causes the excess blood sugar to be stored as fat. When a pre-diabetic crosses the line to full diabetes things start getting even more ugly.

We don't need stats on this. There are hundreds of scientific studies covering it. It is extremely well known that diabetics tend to be fat. Not all mind you, but the majority are. Pre-diabetes is merely a forerunner to full type 2 diabetes. Some see it as a warning. Others just bury their head in the sand and hope they don't have it.

If you're fat, it should be the very first thing you test for. If blood sugar is not a problem, thyroid hormones should be the next tests done. I've had them all done. I know quite a bit about insulin resistance because I am pre-diabetic and I've worked over many years at controlling my blood sugar naturally (no drugs).

This to me certainly pinpoints one of the big factors in the obesity epidemic in many western countries.

Now if you go back to when I was a kid in the 60s and early 70s people were a lot leaner. Why might that be?

There are a couple of factors here and one is the food they were eating and two is the lifestyle where people were exercising a lot more and many had active jobs.

There were no fast food places around when I was a kid and there was no extra money to spend on junk. Lack of exercise and high carb and high sugar diets are disastrous to the body and that is what many people are doing to themselves these days.

There are of course extra problems for men over fifty who have to be a lot more vigilant to keep weight off as declining T levels and sugar resistance problems make it more difficult to maintain a healthy weight but not impossible and certainly if you go in with a defeatist attitude you will never lose that weight that is essential to lose if you want to be healthy into your old age. The alternative is to be dependent on doctors who will prescribe all sorts of pills that will play havoc with your health and well being. They might keep you alive but you wont be healthy or happy I dare say.

The ball is in your court to take control of your own health.

[robblok]

In support of JT:

I have just used google and his claims are echoed by many and credible sources too. There is a failure rate, and its really high. However the sources i am reading about attribute this too lifestyles and sugars in food and drinks. So yes for uninformed people the cards are stacked against them. However the smart people with willpower can win.

I am amazed at the lack of knowledge about food and diets sometimes, its time for more education and some government funded independent studies about sugar, the US corn industry wont like it and im sure some EU industries also wont. So it would be hard to keep the data real.

The thing is diet is not hard, just uncomfortable, anyone can loose the weight and keep it off. The problem is that they have to radically change their lifestyle but that is the hard part as the norm is unhealthy and geared towards quick satisfactions. The goal of weight-loss is not a goal like wanting to run 100 meters under 9 seconds physically impossible its just uncomfortable and people dont like that everything is geared towards instant satisfaction.

I do like to drink alcohol once in a while, but i don't. I do like French fries once in a while but i don't. I know that if i don't keep my routine up i have a big chance to lapse back. So does that mean i have to give up right away and say i am destined to fail so its better to enjoy life or to try.

[Tolley]

In support of JT:

I have just used google and his claims are echoed by many and credible sources too. There is a failure rate, and its really high. However the sources i am reading about attribute this too lifestyles and sugars in food and drinks. So yes for uninformed people the cards are stacked against them. However the smart people with willpower can win.

I am amazed at the lack of knowledge about food and diets sometimes, its time for more education and some government funded independent studies about sugar, the US corn industry wont like it and im sure some EU industries also wont. So it would be hard to keep the data real.

The thing is diet is not hard, just uncomfortable, anyone can loose the weight and keep it off. The problem is that they have to radically change their lifestyle but that is the hard part as the norm is unhealthy and geared towards quick satisfactions. The goal of weight-loss is not a goal like wanting to run 100 meters under 9 seconds physically impossible its just uncomfortable and people dont like that everything is geared towards instant satisfaction.

I do like to drink alcohol once in a while, but i don't. I do like French fries once in a while but i don't. I know that if i don't keep my routine up i have a big chance to lapse back. So does that mean i have to give up right away and say i am destined to fail so its better to enjoy life or to try.

Corn sugar which has replaced cane sugar in soft drinks and can be found in many processed foods is one thing you really need to try and avoid. In fact corn sugar is right up there with trans fatty acids as a big no no for people interested in maintaining a healthy diet.

http://www.wellspher...erences/1247903

Pay particular attention to this bit.

The astronomic rise in obesity, diabetes and heart disease in the United States since the introduction of HFCS has led many to believe that it may be dangerous, according to "High Fructose Corn Syrup: Just Another Sugar?," an article on CBC. The American Chemical Society conference in 2007 noted that alarmingly high levels of something called reactive carbonyls are in HFCS. They are known to cause tissue damage and are also found in high levels in people with diabetes. • Both cane sugar and HFCS are processed. Cane sugar results in pure sucrose, and HFCS results in a combination of glucose and fructose. Both the Corn Refiners Association and the Sugar Association, as well as the U.S. government's Food Pyramid, suggest limiting intake of any form of sugar, whether glucose, fructose or sucrose. • Many consumers see sugar as more natural, because making high-fructose corn syrup involves using enzymes in a complex series of chemical reactions. Environmentalists are concerned that depending on corn for sweeteners depletes the soil quality on land where it is farmed. Researchers have reported detecting traces of mercury in a small sampling of high-fructose corn syrup, though they cautioned that the study was limited.

[robblok]

JT

http://mann.bol.ucla.edu/files/Diets_don't_work.pdf

This link supports you, but also it states that if you exercise and diet the chances of keeping it off go up a lot. Quite a nice read, for me it shows that you really radically need to change your life and keep it changed to keep the weight off.

[robblok]

Maybe they should research why some people do keep it off and others dont, i put my money on keeping healthy habits versus getting back to what they did before. Its not like food is produced to be healthy, its made to be addictive and nice.

[Jingthing]

That is an unfounded personal insult.

Seriously? You took that as a personal insult?

On this thread which I had assumed is supposed to be a forum for a supportive compassionate environment for fat people, you have called me a pig and with no evidence (in fact, before on this thread I made it clear that I do not) suggested I stuff my face endlessly. This is the kind of verbal psychological abuse fat people take all the time from society in general. The assumption that because they are fat they must eat like pigs, the implication they are all weak people lacking the restraint of thin people. I wouldn't have thought this is the place for that kind of anti-fat people vitriol.

[Jingthing]

I heartily endorse checking for diabetes and pre-diabetes. Nothing new about that. I am not at all convinced though that going on a prediabetic diet translates into fat people becoming thin for life. Where are the statistics on that? Sounds like another case of some anecdotal stories rather than anything impacting the masses of fat adults who in reality mostly NEVER will not be fat adults.

You have too much to learn and I'm not about to give you a full education on something you obviously know nothing about, and to be honest you don't really seem that interested.

Just a very quick clue....

Pre-diabetics cannot efficiently handle carbohydrates. Carbohydrates are literally poison to people with diabetes and pre-diabetes. High blood sugar causes massive spikes in insulin, which immediately causes the excess blood sugar to be stored as fat. When a pre-diabetic crosses the line to full diabetes things start getting even more ugly.

We don't need stats on this. There are hundreds of scientific studies covering it. It is extremely well known that diabetics tend to be fat. Not all mind you, but the majority are. Pre-diabetes is merely a forerunner to full type 2 diabetes. Some see it as a warning. Others just bury their head in the sand and hope they don't have it.

If you're fat, it should be the very first thing you test for. If blood sugar is not a problem, thyroid hormones should be the next tests done. I've had them all done. I know quite a bit about insulin resistance because I am pre-diabetic and I've worked over many years at controlling my blood sugar naturally (no drugs).

You might think for a second before you assume I don't know anything. Your record here on assumptions about me is not very impressive.

Anyway, yes diabetes and obesity is linked, as is pre-diabetes.

I already agreed with that and I certainly know that.

My point was for a fat adult who is diabetic or pre-diabetic, going on the proper diet for that in my view doesn't mean that person is on the road towards losing all his weight and keeping it off for life. The diet is for health but that doesn't mean a miracle is likely to happen to permanently fix the obesity, against all odds. I was looking for statistics on that and fine you couldn't produce them.

[Jingthing]

In support of JT:

I have just used google and his claims are echoed by many and credible sources too. There is a failure rate, and its really high. However the sources i am reading about attribute this too lifestyles and sugars in food and drinks. So yes for uninformed people the cards are stacked against them. However the smart people with willpower can win.

I am amazed at the lack of knowledge about food and diets sometimes, its time for more education and some government funded independent studies about sugar, the US corn industry wont like it and im sure some EU industries also wont. So it would be hard to keep the data real.

The thing is diet is not hard, just uncomfortable, anyone can loose the weight and keep it off. The problem is that they have to radically change their lifestyle but that is the hard part as the norm is unhealthy and geared towards quick satisfactions. The goal of weight-loss is not a goal like wanting to run 100 meters under 9 seconds physically impossible its just uncomfortable and people dont like that everything is geared towards instant satisfaction.

I do like to drink alcohol once in a while, but i don't. I do like French fries once in a while but i don't. I know that if i don't keep my routine up i have a big chance to lapse back. So does that mean i have to give up right away and say i am destined to fail so its better to enjoy life or to try.

Corn sugar which has replaced cane sugar in soft drinks and can be found in many processed foods is one thing you really need to try and avoid. In fact corn sugar is right up there with trans fatty acids as a big no no for people interested in maintaining a healthy diet.

http://www.wellspher...erences/1247903

Pay particular attention to this bit.

The astronomic rise in obesity, diabetes and heart disease in the United States since the introduction of HFCS has led many to believe that it may be dangerous, according to "High Fructose Corn Syrup: Just Another Sugar?," an article on CBC. The American Chemical Society conference in 2007 noted that alarmingly high levels of something called reactive carbonyls are in HFCS. They are known to cause tissue damage and are also found in high levels in people with diabetes. • Both cane sugar and HFCS are processed. Cane sugar results in pure sucrose, and HFCS results in a combination of glucose and fructose. Both the Corn Refiners Association and the Sugar Association, as well as the U.S. government's Food Pyramid, suggest limiting intake of any form of sugar, whether glucose, fructose or sucrose. • Many consumers see sugar as more natural, because making high-fructose corn syrup involves using enzymes in a complex series of chemical reactions. Environmentalists are concerned that depending on corn for sweeteners depletes the soil quality on land where it is farmed. Researchers have reported detecting traces of mercury in a small sampling of high-fructose corn syrup, though they cautioned that the study was limited.

You are talking now about the obesogenic environment, another insidious social factor involved in the obesity epidemic and high failure rates for self cures. As Thailand has become more obesogenic we now see higher obesity rates in Thai youth which will translate into Thai adults. Larger clothes sizes are coming. Yes the situation with HFCS is atrocious! It is hidden in so many foods, yes, in Thailand as well.

Another thing. Modern bread that sits on shelves and doesn't go stale in a day? What's up with that? FAT is injected and it's not on the labels.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/196849.php

[robblok]

JT, fat people are fat because they eat more then what they burn (fact undisputed)

You control what you put in your mouth and nobody else (fact)

Does not mean you have to eat like a pig to get fat, just a bit more then you burn over time will add up.

[billd766]

OK, still sipping the acid, and liking it.

Some more thoughts: ACV is about MORE than possible minor help with weight loss. There are a number of other potential health benefits and some pitfalls as well. Apparently the people that do see weight loss they link to ACV, the typical level is one pound per month, but with some luckier people, two pounds per month.

Doing it gives no liberty to pig out on unhealthy food or to neglect exercise either. If it works for some people, it is merely a BOOST.

I'm feeling there is something to the digestive aid claims and am also feeling somewhat more energetic. Overall, I am motivated to keep with it.

Given that, as long as I'm going through the ritual, I decided to spring for the unfiltered product.

In Pattaya, I found Healthy Mate (made in Thailand) organic unfiltered ACV, 32 ounce, 370 baht at Central Food Hall and Foodland. Over double the cost of the S&W. Oh well.

Healthy Mate was the only brand I saw. I did not see the American brand Braggs. The Thai product appears quite good with the same specs as Braggs.

Only slightly off the topic of weight loss. A friend suggested taking Healthy Mate ACV as it helps him with artritis and after 23 days I find that it works for me too.

I take 1/2 tbs ACV plus 1/2 tbs honey in a glass of water twice a day and I can know close my hands as normal and the pain in my left knee where I had an arthroscopy 15 years ago is much less too.

I have attached several pages from a book that you may find interesting and useful about Vinegar, honey and garlic.

There is much more in the book than this.

[Jingthing]

JT, fat people are fat because they eat more then what they burn (fact undisputed)

You control what you put in your mouth and nobody else (fact)

Does not mean you have to eat like a pig to get fat, just a bit more then you burn over time will add up.

Thin people who have never been fat may be high rate burners, meaning they CAN eat like pigs.

People see fat people and make the false assumption that person is eating like a pig. Some fat people do, some thin people do. It's an unfair and discriminatory assumption to make based on physical appearance.

Another reason behind my strongly held opinion that adult fat people should be REALISTIC about their personal odds of beating the massive odds to become a lifetime thin person, is that repeated failures and unrealistic expectations are linked to depression (which like a vicious cycle can lead to even more severe obesity). In Thailand men going with bar workers seem to say my girl or boy is different. Usually, they are not. Usually, fat people are not going to beat the odds and become a lifetime thin person, in fact even those with a thin appearance are actually still a fat person who doesn't currently look fat. I think for most people accepting reality is the healthier choice for both mental and physical health. That doesn't mean not emphasizing good diet and exercise. It does mean not deluding yourself about your odds. For many fat people, maintaining a near starvation level diet for life is simply never going to happen. The naturally thin person never has to eat that way.

[Jingthing]

...

Only slightly off the topic of weight loss. A friend suggested taking Healthy Mate ACV as it helps him with artritis and after 23 days I find that it works for me too.

...

Thanks. I am definitely sure now that ACV is strong stuff and has lots of applications.

Another one. Apparently you can use it to make skin tags fall off.

Apply with cotton ball three times a day on the skin tag. But it takes 10 to 15 days. Not the most efficient methods.

[robblok]

JT, fat people are fat because they eat more then what they burn (fact undisputed)

You control what you put in your mouth and nobody else (fact)

Does not mean you have to eat like a pig to get fat, just a bit more then you burn over time will add up.

Thin people who have never been fat may be high rate burners, meaning they CAN eat like pigs.

People see fat people and make the false assumption that person is eating like a pig. Some fat people do, some thin people do. It's an unfair and discriminatory assumption to make based on physical appearance.

JT yes they CAN eat like pigs, life is not fair. I am not a fast burner either. But you alone are the one who has control over his weight. You chose not to act on it before. You did not wake up overweight. You are responsible, stop blaming someone else.

Some people drive cars better as me and wont get an accident where i would get it.. it happens i just drive slower then. You cant do what other people can do.

[Jingthing]

I am not blaming lifetime thin people who are fast burners for being lucky. I am blaming any people who unfairly verbally abuse fat people. It seems especially wrong on a forum addressing fat issues.

[robblok]

I am not blaming lifetime thin people who are fast burners for being lucky. I am blaming any people who unfairly verbally abuse fat people.

But still JT you did not get fat overnight, even now you can change it you choose not too. Then don't complain about it. You can help yourself nobody else can. You have already set yourself up for failure. Then accept that you will be seen as fat.

[robblok]

Just for the record im always real supportive, the only thing i can't stand is people complaining about their weight and making all kinds of excused and not trying. I have enormous respect for everyone trying even if they fail. I will try to help as i can.

[Jingthing]

I am not blaming lifetime thin people who are fast burners for being lucky. I am blaming any people who unfairly verbally abuse fat people.

But still JT you did not get fat overnight, even now you can change it you choose not too. Then don't complain about it. You can help yourself nobody else can. You have already set yourself up for failure. Then accept that you will be seen as fat.

That's a morality mind trip which I don't buy into. You have a certain temperament and a cultural bias which works for you but you seek to impose that on fat people in general. I think you are selling something that only a small percentage of fat people will ever achieve, so the rest of them if they buy into your meme are going to fail (we KNOW that fact statistically) and have low self esteem labeling themselves as failures and likely get depressed and even fatter. I'm not saying people shouldn't try to improve their lives and health. I certainly do. I just think it is harmful to have unrealistic expectations that almost definitely won't come true.

Again, for the majority of fat people, starving themselves for the rest of their lives when their bodies are screaming to get back to a fat weight, is just way behind REALISTIC expectations.

[Jingthing]

Just for the record im always real supportive, the only thing i can't stand is people complaining about their weight and making all kinds of excused and not trying. I have enormous respect for everyone trying even if they fail. I will try to help as i can.

Yes I understand. You have not verbally abused fat people here.

[robblok]

I am not blaming lifetime thin people who are fast burners for being lucky. I am blaming any people who unfairly verbally abuse fat people.

But still JT you did not get fat overnight, even now you can change it you choose not too. Then don't complain about it. You can help yourself nobody else can. You have already set yourself up for failure. Then accept that you will be seen as fat.

That's a morality mind trip which I don't buy into. You have a certain temperament and a cultural bias which works for you but you seek to impose that on fat people in general. I think you are selling something that only a small percentage of fat people will ever achieve, so the rest of them if they buy into your meme are going to fail (we KNOW that fact statistically) and have low self esteem labeling themselves as failures and likely get depressed and even fatter. I'm not saying people shouldn't try to improve their lives and health. I certainly do. I just think it is harmful to have unrealistic expectations that almost definitely won't come true.

Again, for the majority of fat people, starving themselves for the rest of their lives when their bodies are screaming to get back to a fat weight, is just way behind REALISTIC expectations.

You don't have to starve yourself JT a caloric reduction is not starving yourself. You just keep making excuses. Fine dont act like its the truth its not.

[Jingthing]

You don't have to starve yourself JT a caloric reduction is not starving yourself. You just keep making excuses. Fine dont act like its the truth its not.

If I wanted a Calvinistic shaming style morality sermon, I'd go to church. I am not making excuses. I am talking about the scientific reality for fat people in general, allowing of course for individual biological diversity.

OBVIOUSLY I wasn't talking about starvation in the literal sense of killing yourself with malnutrition.

I was obviously talking about starvation in the context of previously fat temporarily thin people. I say temporarily because that is the reality for the vast majority of fat people who have achieved major weight loss.

For most people, such lifetime self deprivation is simply not in the realm of the possible.

I say again, improve your diet and increase your exercise, set more modest realistic goals such as modest weight loss done SLOWLY, but don't EXPECT you will ever be a lifetime thin person if you are majorly fat adult. It's self defeating to expect that. It's like the hoop dreams in American slums of minority kids EXPECTING to be millionaire sports or rap music stars. It's harmful for most people to have such unrealistic expectations. When they fail, which almost all will, then if they EXPECTED it, they are way worse off.

¶ While researchers have known for decades that the body undergoes various metabolic and hormonal changes while it’s losing weight, the Australian team detected something new. A full year after significant weight loss, these men and women remained in what could be described as a biologically altered state. Their still-plump bodies were acting as if they were starving and were working overtime to regain the pounds they lost. For instance, a gastric hormone called ghrelin, often dubbed the “hunger hormone,” was about 20 percent higher than at the start of the study. Another hormone associated with suppressing hunger, peptide YY, was also abnormally low. Levels of leptin, a hormone that suppresses hunger and increases metabolism, also remained lower than expected. A cocktail of other hormones associated with hunger and metabolism all remained significantly changed compared to pre-dieting levels. It was almost as if weight loss had put their bodies into a unique metabolic state, a sort of post-dieting syndrome that set them apart from people who hadn’t tried to lose weight in the first place.

¶ “What we see here is a coordinated defense mechanism with multiple components all directed toward making us put on weight,” Proietto says. “This, I think, explains the high failure rate in obesity treatment.”

http://www.nytimes.c...gewanted=all[]

To clarify a little more: In my opinion, tips and advice on how to safely lose weight, change your diet to a health promoting one in general, exercise ideas is definitely a POSITIVE thing. Lecturing people who have failed to become thin on their moral failings, (the majority of fat adults who haven't done SURGERY) I think that is the OPPOSITE of helpful.

[robblok]

Its not a moral failure, its failure because you don't think its important enough. If you just eat 150 calories a day les then you burn you loose 12 pounds in a year. 150 calories is less as half a mars bar per day less. If you call that starving i cal you delusional.

The fact is you will do nothing to control it because you don't want to, the majority of people just don't want to make the effort.

Starving is what i do eating around 500 calls less then what you burn. (they dont even call that starving but its certainly a large defict). You wan't to loose weight but at the same time not give up anything. Its just not possible.

Then you can say its moralistic, its the pure truth if you want to loose weight you have to take action and keep taking that action forever. The majority of people indeed won't do this because they cant be bothered too. Just like you.

Do i mind no, but don't complain your fat or that you have to pay extra for clothes. You control it nobody else. I am not telling you what to do im telling you straight what it is.

Your ghrellin is nice i read about it too... thing is diet alone does not work, however combined with exercise it more oftne does work. In the document i posted it goes on all about the failure of diets and then says that with exercise the game changes. Thing is JT you don't want it enough. You find reasons why you should not try.

[robblok]

Exercise has also been shown to improve the maintenance of weight loss in two meta-analyses of controlled

trials in which participants were randomly assigned to diet

and exercise or just to diet (Fogelholm & KukkonenHarjula, 2000; Wing, 1999).

In one study, for example, participants were randomly

assigned to a diet-only, exercise-only, or diet-plus-exercise

intervention for one year (Skender et al., 1996). All participants lost similar amounts of weight during the first year.

When participants were reassessed during the second year,

the diet-only participants averaged a follow-up weight that

was about 0.9 kg (1.9 lb) heavier than baseline, whereas the

groups that included exercise remained 2.5 kg (5.5 lb)

below baseline.

According to the National Weight Control Registry, a

longitudinal study of individuals who maintained a weight

loss of 13.6 kg (29.9 lb) for at least one year, 90% of its

participants used regular physical activity as a strategy to

maintain the loss (Klem, Wing, McGuire, Seagle, & Hill,

1997). Similar results were found in another sample of

individuals who maintained a substantial weight loss (Kayman, Bruvold, & Stern, 1990) and in a survey of subscribers to Consumer Reports (“The Truth About Dieting,”

2002). In fact, a survey of participants in a commercial diet

program found that exercise frequency was the strongest

predictor of weight loss maintenance (Grodstein et al.,

1996). If substantial percentages of participants in diet

studies are exercising, the diet will appear more effective

than it actually is.

From the pdf i posted, so JT its not a lost cause if you add exercise..d o i now have to rinse my mouth because i used a dirty word ?

[Tolley]

In support of JT:

I have just used google and his claims are echoed by many and credible sources too. There is a failure rate, and its really high. However the sources i am reading about attribute this too lifestyles and sugars in food and drinks. So yes for uninformed people the cards are stacked against them. However the smart people with willpower can win.

I am amazed at the lack of knowledge about food and diets sometimes, its time for more education and some government funded independent studies about sugar, the US corn industry wont like it and im sure some EU industries also wont. So it would be hard to keep the data real.

The thing is diet is not hard, just uncomfortable, anyone can loose the weight and keep it off. The problem is that they have to radically change their lifestyle but that is the hard part as the norm is unhealthy and geared towards quick satisfactions. The goal of weight-loss is not a goal like wanting to run 100 meters under 9 seconds physically impossible its just uncomfortable and people dont like that everything is geared towards instant satisfaction.

I do like to drink alcohol once in a while, but i don't. I do like French fries once in a while but i don't. I know that if i don't keep my routine up i have a big chance to lapse back. So does that mean i have to give up right away and say i am destined to fail so its better to enjoy life or to try.

Corn sugar which has replaced cane sugar in soft drinks and can be found in many processed foods is one thing you really need to try and avoid. In fact corn sugar is right up there with trans fatty acids as a big no no for people interested in maintaining a healthy diet.

http://www.wellspher...erences/1247903

Pay particular attention to this bit.

The astronomic rise in obesity, diabetes and heart disease in the United States since the introduction of HFCS has led many to believe that it may be dangerous, according to "High Fructose Corn Syrup: Just Another Sugar?," an article on CBC. The American Chemical Society conference in 2007 noted that alarmingly high levels of something called reactive carbonyls are in HFCS. They are known to cause tissue damage and are also found in high levels in people with diabetes. • Both cane sugar and HFCS are processed. Cane sugar results in pure sucrose, and HFCS results in a combination of glucose and fructose. Both the Corn Refiners Association and the Sugar Association, as well as the U.S. government's Food Pyramid, suggest limiting intake of any form of sugar, whether glucose, fructose or sucrose. • Many consumers see sugar as more natural, because making high-fructose corn syrup involves using enzymes in a complex series of chemical reactions. Environmentalists are concerned that depending on corn for sweeteners depletes the soil quality on land where it is farmed. Researchers have reported detecting traces of mercury in a small sampling of high-fructose corn syrup, though they cautioned that the study was limited.

You are talking now about the obesogenic environment, another insidious social factor involved in the obesity epidemic and high failure rates for self cures. As Thailand has become more obesogenic we now see higher obesity rates in Thai youth which will translate into Thai adults. Larger clothes sizes are coming. Yes the situation with HFCS is atrocious! It is hidden in so many foods, yes, in Thailand as well.

Another thing. Modern bread that sits on shelves and doesn't go stale in a day? What's up with that? FAT is injected and it's not on the labels.

http://www.medicalne...cles/196849.php

Corn syrup, trans fatty acids, GMO foods, pesticide ridden vegetables, soil that has had all the nutrients stripped out of it.

There is no where to hide. We are destroying the food chain and along with it the chances to stay healthy.

Food just aint what is used to be.

[Tolley]

OK, still sipping the acid, and liking it.

Some more thoughts: ACV is about MORE than possible minor help with weight loss. There are a number of other potential health benefits and some pitfalls as well. Apparently the people that do see weight loss they link to ACV, the typical level is one pound per month, but with some luckier people, two pounds per month.

Doing it gives no liberty to pig out on unhealthy food or to neglect exercise either. If it works for some people, it is merely a BOOST.

I'm feeling there is something to the digestive aid claims and am also feeling somewhat more energetic. Overall, I am motivated to keep with it.

Given that, as long as I'm going through the ritual, I decided to spring for the unfiltered product.

In Pattaya, I found Healthy Mate (made in Thailand) organic unfiltered ACV, 32 ounce, 370 baht at Central Food Hall and Foodland. Over double the cost of the S&W. Oh well.

Healthy Mate was the only brand I saw. I did not see the American brand Braggs. The Thai product appears quite good with the same specs as Braggs.

Only slightly off the topic of weight loss. A friend suggested taking Healthy Mate ACV as it helps him with artritis and after 23 days I find that it works for me too.

I take 1/2 tbs ACV plus 1/2 tbs honey in a glass of water twice a day and I can know close my hands as normal and the pain in my left knee where I had an arthroscopy 15 years ago is much less too.

I have attached several pages from a book that you may find interesting and useful about Vinegar, honey and garlic.

There is much more in the book than this.

Yes it is a well known cure for gout so it should also be good for arthritis. You should add fish oil and/or krill oil as that also helps arthritis.

[Jingthing]

Giving up a Mars bar everyday is going to be too hard for me as I haven't had a Mars bar since I was about age 10.

[tropo]

You might think for a second before you assume I don't know anything. Your record here on assumptions about me is not very impressive.

Anyway, yes diabetes and obesity is linked, as is pre-diabetes.

I already agreed with that and I certainly know that.

My point was for a fat adult who is diabetic or pre-diabetic, going on the proper diet for that in my view doesn't mean that person is on the road towards losing all his weight and keeping it off for life. The diet is for health but that doesn't mean a miracle is likely to happen to permanently fix the obesity, against all odds. I was looking for statistics on that and fine you couldn't produce them.

I'll make the assumption you don't know jack based on what you've offered on the topic so far. That's all I have to go on.

People who find out they are diabetic (or pre-diabetic) who become proactive in their condition (wish to solve it without resorting to drugs) are usually the successful people who permanently keep their weight off. Why are they often successful? Because they have extra incentive.

It's not only about proper diet for a diabetic. Exercise is essential in keeping the blood sugar low.

[Jingthing]

Why do you feel the need to be so insulting?

What's the deal here exactly? Is the feeling if you don't tow the orthodox party line that obesity is only about simple calorie math then you aren't really welcome? To me that comes off like true believer syndrome.