Citizenship Refusal

[dantilley]

According to the previous posts though, 5 years of PR isn't a requirement - a big help towards accumulating the number of points, but not mandatory.

[GarryP]

According to the previous posts though, 5 years of PR isn't a requirement - a big help towards accumulating the number of points, but not mandatory.

I believe 5 years is a requirement only if you are filing for citizenship based on PR. If filing based on marriage then the period of PR is not a deal killer so to speak but as you point out you get fewer points. I got zero on this.

To repeat the summary:

Personal qualifications (age 10 and education 15) 25 points

Stability of occupation (calculated based on salary) 25 points

Residence 20 points (broken down into 5, 10, 15 or 20 points)

Knowledge of the Thai language 15 points (broken down into 4, 10, 13 or 15)

General knowledge of Thailand 10 points

Personality 5 points (awarded by the interviewer)

Actually, Arkady has posted all of this information on a number of other threads and despite the length of some of them, it is worth reading them all, and I would recommend doing so if you are serious about applying. There is a lot of valuable information in them, which could save a lot of time and bother down the line.

[Arkady]

That PDF includes quite a few differences from the Phuket Gazette ariticle, do you know if it's up to date? I see the date on the Gazette is 2004 so I'm guessing the PDF is the one to refer to. A few worrying things in there though, especially point 7:

"7. Applicants should produce a document that they have submitted to their embassy or consulate in Thailand that demonstrates their intention to renounce their existing citizenship when they are approved for Thai citizenship."

Is this the case now for all nationalities? Or is this (and perhaps other conditions) not set in stone?

It is the case for all nationalities. In fact some applicants who applied before this came into effect in 2010 were asked to submit the declaration retroactively. This question has also been routinely put to applicants by the interview panel at the MoI since 2010, even those who were not asked to submit the declaration. You can imagine what happens, if you give the wrong answer.

Since it is a ministerial regulation and not part of the Nationality Act, it can not be regarded as set in stone. Ministerial regulations can be changed by the minister without any parliamentary process.

[Arkady]

I've been reading about all the requirements for Citizenship and wonder if anyone can advise me on one issue.

I have a Yellow Tambien Bahn from my wife's family home in another province. I am hopefully buying a house later this year. Would it be wise/easier to wait until my name was on a tabien baan for Khon Kaen, where I live or would it be better to apply now? I read that they can come round to check that you actually live there?

It is the job of the NIA to investigate applicants before the application is finalised and sent off to the MoI by Special Branch. It is possible they would come around and check home and/or office, although in recent years the NIA seems to have been content to interview most applicants at Micky D's in Ploenchit. I rather doubt they have a travel budget to go to the provinces but you never know.

For me the more pressing issue would be whether Special Branch provincial HQ would be willing to process your application. Even in Khon Kaen this is not a given. Only Special Branch in Bkk has a dedicated staff for processing citizenship applications. In other provinces they will have to figure out how to to do it and might just refuse something complex that they don't see generating an income stream for them.

[Arkady]

As far as rejections are concerned, this is an interesting question. Most rejections are made informally by Special Branch in as much as the application is not submitted because the interested party doesn't meet the requirements. So these are technically not rejections.

Actual rejections are fairly uncommon because the applicants have already been screened by Special Branch and other government agencies before their files go to the MoI. Surprisingly enough to many there are apparently very few rejections for subjective reasons, such as not speaking good enough Thai or not conforming with the officials' view of what an ideal Thai citizenship should look like. Most rejections, as far as I can gather, are on technical grounds, usually for not complying fully with ministerial regulations to the letter. Those who are rejected for technical reasons are not prevented from reapplying, if they have fixed the technical problem, and some reapply successfully, although they might suffer a delay of several years in the process.

Re criminal records. Unlike PR, there is currently no requirement for clean bill of health from applicants' home countries but they will check with Thai Interpol. They will also check for Thai criminal record and with the Narcotics Bureau.

For people like Dork who are understandably wondering if they really want to submit to another lengthy process after waiting years for PR, I tend to agree with Garry that applying for citizenship is a low cost option, easier than PR but likely to get harder, that you might be glad you did at some point in the future. The documentation is a bit of a pain but is significantly less onerous than PR and is a one-off. As long as you are reasonably sure to keep working for another 3-5 years, you should make it through the MoI interview where they will ask to see your WP. After that, they don't normally ask to see your WP but they could and that is a risk . You can take a view whether you want to stay in work or not, depending on how long it takes to get to interview. If you use all the tax allowances, including Long Term Equity Fund and Retirement Fund, there is no need to pay much salaries tax. So the question is more the administrative hassle, if you have your own business.

Edited January 14, 2013 by Arkady

[Neeranam]

I've been reading about all the requirements for Citizenship and wonder if anyone can advise me on one issue.

I have a Yellow Tambien Bahn from my wife's family home in another province. I am hopefully buying a house later this year. Would it be wise/easier to wait until my name was on a tabien baan for Khon Kaen, where I live or would it be better to apply now? I read that they can come round to check that you actually live there?

It is the job of the NIA to investigate applicants before the application is finalised and sent off to the MoI by Special Branch. It is possible they would come around and check home and/or office, although in recent years the NIA seems to have been content to interview most applicants at Micky D's in Ploenchit. I rather doubt they have a travel budget to go to the provinces but you never know.

For me the more pressing issue would be whether Special Branch provincial HQ would be willing to process your application. Even in Khon Kaen this is not a given. Only Special Branch in Bkk has a dedicated staff for processing citizenship applications. In other provinces they will have to figure out how to to do it and might just refuse something complex that they don't see generating an income stream for them.

Thanks for the reply Arkady.

My wife's family home is a couple of hours from Bangkok, maybe it would be best to keep it there.I'm thinking of applying in a couple of months.

I have a couple of questions - would it be best for me to apply to Special Branch in Bangkok - is this allowed?

Is Special Branch related to "gong bprab bpram"? We have a connection with a high ranking officer(deputy commander) there - would it be worth asking his favour?

Is the Special Branch one near Siam Square and World trade Centre?

Edited January 14, 2013 by Neeranam

[lopburi3]

Troll and reply removed.

[Arkady]

Unfortunately it is set in reinforced concrete in the Nationality Act that applicants must apply to the Special Branch in the province they reside (i.e. have tabien baan). So Special Branch's dedicated nationality section in Bangkok can only handle applications from Bangkok residents. One milimetre into Nonthaburi or Samut Prakarn and you are inelligible for their service. Nevertheless, you can go there to make enquiries and they are usually very helpful. Yes, it is near Siam Square and World Trade Centre. It is located in the National Police HQ building which is directly opposite Siam Paragon. Best to enter from Henri Dunant Road. Coming from Rama I Road take the last entrance of Police HQ, nod knowingly at the guard without slowing down to invite questions (if they have bothered to man the guard post at all) and march confidently in walking straight along the last soi that runs parallel to Rama I Road. On the right you will pass the Special Branch VIP escort motorbike showroom and go on to Building 24 in Thai numerals on the left. Just past the police criminal record clearance office on the ground floor you will see the much smaller Nationality Section.

Special Branch is Santibaan in Thai. I'm sorry I am not familiar with the Gong Brap Bram but I don't think it is part of Special Branch. Connections will not help much with Special Branch in Bangkok because they just process applications for the Interior Ministry which has all the decision making power. Special Branch in Bangkok will normally process applications within 2 or 3 months. The massive delays occur in the black hole of the ministry which is where you need use powerful connections, if you want to speed things up, but nothing much can be done for applicants who aren't qualified according to the Act and the regulations. However, if you are going to apply in the provinces, it would be a good idea to get a senior policeman to arrange an introduction to Special Branch in your province, just to ensure they are willing to process your application at all.

Edited January 15, 2013 by Arkady

[JoePai]

took me some searching but found it and fixed it

http://www.phuketgaz...ails.asp?id=759

9 years old ?

[Neeranam]

Unfortunately it is set in reinforced concrete in the Nationality Act that applicants must apply to the Special Branch in the province they reside (i.e. have tabien baan). So Special Branch's dedicated nationality section in Bangkok can only handle applications from Bangkok residents. One milimetre into Nonthaburi or Samut Prakarn and you are inelligible for their service. Nevertheless, you can go there to make enquiries and they are usually very helpful. Yes, it is near Siam Square and World Trade Centre. It is located in the National Police HQ building which is directly opposite Siam Paragon. Best to enter from Henri Dunant Road. Coming from Rama I Road take the last entrance of Police HQ, nod knowingly at the guard without slowing down to invite questions (if they have bothered to man the guard post at all) and march confidently in walking straight along the last soi that runs parallel to Rama I Road. On the right you will pass the Special Branch VIP escort motorbike showroom and go on to Building 24 in Thai numerals on the left. Just past the police criminal record clearance office on the ground floor you will see the much smaller Nationality Section.

Special Branch is Santibaan in Thai. I'm sorry I am not familiar with the Gong Bprab Bpram but I don't think it is part of Special Branch. Connections will not help much with Special Branch in Bangkok because they just process applications for the Interior Ministry which has all the decision making power. Special Branch in Bangkok will normally process applications within 2 or 3 months. The massive delays occur in the black hole of the ministry which is where you need use powerful connections, if you want to speed things up, but nothing much can be done for applicants who aren't qualified according to the Act and the regulations. However, if you are going to apply in the provinces, it would be a good idea to get a senior policeman to arrange an introduction to Special Branch in your province, just to ensure they are willing to process your application at all.

Hi Arkady - thanks again for the long reply, answered questions and advice. Gong Bprab Bpram is CSD(Crime Suppression Division)

I've been to Special Branch before for a criminal clearance.

I've one more concern/worry - the minimum salary is 40,000 baht. Now My salary is that but I just found out that for the last 3 years, I've paid tax on less than that. I thought my 2 months bonus was taxable but it's not How strict a requirement is this?

[Arkady]

Hi Arkady - thanks again for the long reply, answered questions and advice. Gong Bprab Bpram is CSD(Crime Suppression Division)

I've been to Special Branch before for a criminal clearance.

I've one more concern/worry - the minimum salary is 40,000 baht. Now My salary is that but I just found out that for the last 3 years, I've paid tax on less than that. I thought my 2 months bonus was taxable but it's not How strict a requirement is this?

I am afraid that I don't think there is any way to get around the minimum salary requirements. Even if Special Branch accepted it, there would be a high risk of rejection later on by the MoI. So not advisable to try. You are right in thinking that bonus is taxable. Who did your personal tax return (Por Ngor Dor 91) for you? If you didn't do it yourself, whoever did it may have made a mistake or perhaps your employer did it and covered up for bonuses paid to employees out of declared income. Anyway, your employer should have deducted tax from the bonus at source and could be fined for not doing this. I don't know what the Revenue Department rules are about voluntary declaration of past under declaration of tax on the PND 91 form are but it would be worth your while looking into this to see if you can re-submit them. There may be a small penalty to pay but there won't be any tax to pay because you are under the minimal taxable income which, of course, might make it hard to persuade the Revenue to do it.

Since we are now 16 Jan the chances are you haven't yet filed your tax return for 2012. If so, you at least you have a chance to make sure you declare your correct annual income on that one. Now we come to an important wrinkle in the application process. The letter you submit confirming your employment must state a monthly salary that is equal to the annual income shown on your prior year tax return divided by 12. That means that if you if your salary was Bt 3,000 a month and you got 2 months' bonus, your employment letter must state that your monthly salary is Bt 3,500 (3,000 x 14 /12). Even if you had a pay rise during the year or since the year end, they want to see a salary on the employment letter that is exactly 1/12 of the total annual income declared on your tax return. Arguments that your company refuses to put an incorrect number on the letter cut no ice with them. You have to get that by whatever means you can.

[Lazy Sod]

Unfortunately it is set in reinforced concrete in the Nationality Act that applicants must apply to the Special Branch in the province they reside (i.e. have tabien baan). So Special Branch's dedicated nationality section in Bangkok can only handle applications from Bangkok residents. One milimetre into Nonthaburi or Samut Prakarn and you are inelligible for their service. Nevertheless, you can go there to make enquiries and they are usually very helpful. Yes, it is near Siam Square and World Trade Centre. It is located in the National Police HQ building which is directly opposite Siam Paragon. Best to enter from Henri Dunant Road. Coming from Rama I Road take the last entrance of Police HQ, nod knowingly at the guard without slowing down to invite questions (if they have bothered to man the guard post at all) and march confidently in walking straight along the last soi that runs parallel to Rama I Road. On the right you will pass the Special Branch VIP escort motorbike showroom and go on to Building 24 in Thai numerals on the left. Just past the police criminal record clearance office on the ground floor you will see the much smaller Nationality Section.

Special Branch is Santibaan in Thai. I'm sorry I am not familiar with the Gong Brap Bram but I don't think it is part of Special Branch. Connections will not help much with Special Branch in Bangkok because they just process applications for the Interior Ministry which has all the decision making power. Special Branch in Bangkok will normally process applications within 2 or 3 months. The massive delays occur in the black hole of the ministry which is where you need use powerful connections, if you want to speed things up, but nothing much can be done for applicants who aren't qualified according to the Act and the regulations. However, if you are going to apply in the provinces, it would be a good idea to get a senior policeman to arrange an introduction to Special Branch in your province, just to ensure they are willing to process your application at all.

Do they speak English considering that foreigners married to a Thai don't need to pass the Thai language test anymore?

[Mario2008]

That might be formally so, but if you don't speak a word of Thai you don't stand a chance as you simply will not make a good impression.

You don't have to sing the anthem and royal anthem, but that will cost you points.

[Arkady]

Unfortunately it is set in reinforced concrete in the Nationality Act that applicants must apply to the Special Branch in the province they reside (i.e. have tabien baan). So Special Branch's dedicated nationality section in Bangkok can only handle applications from Bangkok residents. One milimetre into Nonthaburi or Samut Prakarn and you are inelligible for their service. Nevertheless, you can go there to make enquiries and they are usually very helpful. Yes, it is near Siam Square and World Trade Centre. It is located in the National Police HQ building which is directly opposite Siam Paragon. Best to enter from Henri Dunant Road. Coming from Rama I Road take the last entrance of Police HQ, nod knowingly at the guard without slowing down to invite questions (if they have bothered to man the guard post at all) and march confidently in walking straight along the last soi that runs parallel to Rama I Road. On the right you will pass the Special Branch VIP escort motorbike showroom and go on to Building 24 in Thai numerals on the left. Just past the police criminal record clearance office on the ground floor you will see the much smaller Nationality Section.

Special Branch is Santibaan in Thai. I'm sorry I am not familiar with the Gong Brap Bram but I don't think it is part of Special Branch. Connections will not help much with Special Branch in Bangkok because they just process applications for the Interior Ministry which has all the decision making power. Special Branch in Bangkok will normally process applications within 2 or 3 months. The massive delays occur in the black hole of the ministry which is where you need use powerful connections, if you want to speed things up, but nothing much can be done for applicants who aren't qualified according to the Act and the regulations. However, if you are going to apply in the provinces, it would be a good idea to get a senior policeman to arrange an introduction to Special Branch in your province, just to ensure they are willing to process your application at all.

10 p

Do they speak English considering that foreigners married to a Thai don't need to pass the Thai language test anymore?

No, they won't speak to you in English. Why you would you expect that, if you are applying for Thai citizenship?

The 2008 Act provided a waiver from the requirement to speak and understand Thai for males with Thai wives. It was up to the civil servants at the ministry to interpret this through new regulations. Their interpretation was that you will not be required to sing the two anthems which is a big help to the average tone deaf applicant. You still have to be assessed on your Thai language skills for 15 points out of the maximum of 100 and you still need to take the Knowledge of Thailand test in Thai for 10 points and be interviewed to assess your personality for another 5 points. You need to score at least 50 points out of a 100 and you are not going to get many points out of 20 for residence in Thailand if you don't have permanent residence. If you get zero in all these you've got to get 100% in all the rest which is impossible, if you don't have a doctrate degree. So it's best to try to get a reasonable score in Thailand language. Then you have to pass an interview at the Interior Ministry. Your wife needs to be present and can help you, but, as Mario says, you are not going to make a great impression, if you cannot communicate directly with the interview panel. They are senior civil servants, so they must be able to speak English but again you are applyiing for Thai nationality...duh.

Edited February 1, 2013 by Arkady

[Lazy Sod]

Unfortunately it is set in reinforced concrete in the Nationality Act that applicants must apply to the Special Branch in the province they reside (i.e. have tabien baan). So Special Branch's dedicated nationality section in Bangkok can only handle applications from Bangkok residents. One milimetre into Nonthaburi or Samut Prakarn and you are inelligible for their service. Nevertheless, you can go there to make enquiries and they are usually very helpful. Yes, it is near Siam Square and World Trade Centre. It is located in the National Police HQ building which is directly opposite Siam Paragon. Best to enter from Henri Dunant Road. Coming from Rama I Road take the last entrance of Police HQ, nod knowingly at the guard without slowing down to invite questions (if they have bothered to man the guard post at all) and march confidently in walking straight along the last soi that runs parallel to Rama I Road. On the right you will pass the Special Branch VIP escort motorbike showroom and go on to Building 24 in Thai numerals on the left. Just past the police criminal record clearance office on the ground floor you will see the much smaller Nationality Section.

Special Branch is Santibaan in Thai. I'm sorry I am not familiar with the Gong Brap Bram but I don't think it is part of Special Branch. Connections will not help much with Special Branch in Bangkok because they just process applications for the Interior Ministry which has all the decision making power. Special Branch in Bangkok will normally process applications within 2 or 3 months. The massive delays occur in the black hole of the ministry which is where you need use powerful connections, if you want to speed things up, but nothing much can be done for applicants who aren't qualified according to the Act and the regulations. However, if you are going to apply in the provinces, it would be a good idea to get a senior policeman to arrange an introduction to Special Branch in your province, just to ensure they are willing to process your application at all.

10 p

Do they speak English considering that foreigners married to a Thai don't need to pass the Thai language test anymore?

No, they won't speak to you in English. Why you would you expect that, if you are applying for Thai citizenship?

The 2008 Act provided a waiver from the requirement to speak and understand Thai for males with Thai wives. It was up to the civil servants at the ministry to interpret this through new regulations. Their interpretation was that you will not be required to sing the two anthems which is a big help to the average tone deaf applicant. You still have to be assessed on your Thai language skills for 15 points out of the maximum of 100 and you still need to take the Knowledge of Thailand test in Thai for 10 points and be interviewed to assess your personality for another 5 points. You need to score at least 50 points out of a 100 and you are not going to get many points out of 20 for residence in Thailand if you don't have permanent residence. If you get zero in all these you've got to get 100% in all the rest which is impossible, if you don't have a doctrate degree. So it's best to try to get a reasonable score in Thailand language. Then you have to pass an interview at the Interior Ministry. Your wife needs to be present and can help you, but, as Mario says, you are not going to make a great impression, if you cannot communicate directly with the interview panel. They are senior civil servants, so they must be able to speak English but again you are applyiing for Thai nationality...duh.

Thanks, actually I've got PR and my Thai's good according to the interview officer at the time, I was just a bit concerned that I don't know all of the Thai words for the mountain of documents and Q&A required, speaking a reasonable level of Thai is one thing, but the thought of going through this official process 100% in Thai language is a bit daunting for me and I'm sure many others.

[Arkady]

Thanks, actually I've got PR and my Thai's good according to the interview officer at the time, I was just a bit concerned that I don't know all of the Thai words for the mountain of documents and Q&A required, speaking a reasonable level of Thai is one thing, but the thought of going through this official process 100% in Thai language is a bit daunting for me and I'm sure many others.

It's not that daunting, if you have intermediate Thai. Most of the meetings you have at Special Branch are informal ones with the officer that handles your application and he or she will help you with any words you don't understand. You may also bring someone along to help, a Thai wife, secretary, lawyer or agent. You will be interviewed by the head of the Special Branch nationality section but it is not a stressful one and, if you have a Thai wife, she will be interviewed with you. Same applies to interview with NIA, even though that one is a bit more brusque and businesslike. At the MoI interview, you go with your wife, if you have a Thai one, but that is the one where your Thai should be at its best. No one is out to catch you out.

A useful tip would be to go through the Nationality Act in Thai and translation to learn specialised vocabulary that may come up. You should be able to recognise and use the Thai for Nationality Act, naturalisation, Royal Gazette, Interior Ministry, minister, Special Branch, National Anthem, Royal Anthem etc, as well as the most frequently used words referring to the Royal Family. These will come up repeatedly in conversation and in the tests of Thai language and Thai culture. Learn a list of 20 or 30 of these words and you are done.