Alleged Swedish Killer Of Kiwi Now On The Run: Bar Fight In Pattaya

[simple1]

Alleged Swedish murderer flees Thailand

The accused Swedish killer of a New Zealand man stabbed to death in Pattaya following an argument over a dog has fled Thailand. In August 2012, police arrested 40-year-old Swede Andreas Ringvall and charged him with the murder of Robert Hollick, 43, who was stabbed with a knife three times in his neck and back during a bar fight in Pattaya.

New Zealand’s Foreign Affairs and Trade Ministry confirmed to Mr Hollick's mother, Anne Hollick, on 8 January 2013 that Ringvall was missing after he skipped a scheduled court appearance in November 2012. "I was a little angry that they should treat, not me, but New Zealand this way as though we were so insignificant they could do this without informing the New Zealand Government or whoever they're supposed to inform," Mrs. Hollick said.

Greg Pitt, managing partner at Thailand law firm Mackenzie Smith, told Stuff.co.nz that it would be highly unusual for someone accused of murder to be granted permission to leave Thailand. "I think perhaps a brown paper envelope [filled with cash] would have been passed in some way, which is not uncommon,” he said. "He probably had enough cash - and it has to be cash - to get him out of this."

Continued:

http://www.scandasia...e&news_id=11794

ScandAsia - Jan. 11, 2012

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Does he still have a work permit to practice law after this comment?

He's the Managing Partner, foreigners are not permitted to practice law in Thailand.

Why, is it because they won't play by the rules of the Thai judicial system and accept the paper bags for a streamlined process? Do they think that the law applies to all regardless of social status and race? Can't have this as the Thai opponents may have to work on a case or two. Maybe it is an unfair advantage for a farang lawyer to represent a farang. Use a court appointed Thai lawyer and get a quick conviction.

Some professions/occupations in Thailand are restricted to Thai nationals only, not just law. Info on Thai national requirements for a practicing lawyer at

http://www.ibanet.org/barassociations/Trade_in_Legal_Services_Thailand.aspx

[geriatrickid]

@eyeswideopen: re your post #105 What I was saying is that the Swedish authorities will not deport one of their citizens, do not know of any country that would. As you say it's incumbent on Thai law enforcement to request extradition.

Huh? Canada has extradited its nationals to the USA and China (landed immigrant status in one expensive case) . Remember the Raxena Sakesh case? He was the banker that embezzled 1.3 billion baht. 13 years after he fled to Canada, and several million dollars in legal expenses, Canada was finally able to extradite him back to Thailand. In that case he had claimed refugee status and as such was accorded the same legal rights as a Canadian national. The USA has extradited its nationals to Canada. The UK has extradited its nationals to the USA and Canada. It is up to NZ to pursue the case as it was one of its nationals allegedly harmed.

[chooka]

@ Simple1 - Thailand's FTA with Australia makes concessions on free movement of natural persons and allows up to 100% Australian ownership in a management consultancy business (which could be used as a vehicle for a foreign law firm, given the status of foreign lawyers in Thailand). So if this Greg Pitt is an Australian lawyer it is possible that he can practice in Thailand.

Edited January 12, 2013 by chooka

[simple1]

@eyeswideopen: re your post #105 What I was saying is that the Swedish authorities will not deport one of their citizens, do not know of any country that would. As you say it's incumbent on Thai law enforcement to request extradition.

Huh? Canada has extradited its nationals to the USA and China (landed immigrant status in one expensive case) . Remember the Raxena Sakesh case? He was the banker that embezzled 1.3 billion baht. 13 years after he fled to Canada, and several million dollars in legal expenses, Canada was finally able to extradite him back to Thailand. In that case he had claimed refugee status and as such was accorded the same legal rights as a Canadian national. The USA has extradited its nationals to Canada. The UK has extradited its nationals to the USA and Canada. It is up to NZ to pursue the case as it was one of its nationals allegedly harmed.

I said will not deport their own citizens. I know there have been instances claimed where this has happened illegally e.g. USA. Extradition at the request of a foreign government is an entirely different issue and is not deportation. As an example of extradition protocol and process see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Extradition_law_in_the_United_States#International_extradition

[Sing_Sling]

embassies are like very old men, lots of talk, but for the most part impotent.

the high ranking persons there just mistake the word for important.

It depends what you expect them to do - they have their job functions and legal limitations. Hardly impotent, given the right circumstances

And - it is NOT up to NZ to make a fuss to have the Swede extradited. The crime took place in Thailand, therefore the Thais should be pursuing it even without prodding by the Kiwis

[simple1]

@ Simple1 - Thailand's FTA with Australia makes concessions on free movement of natural persons and allows up to 100% Australian ownership in a management consultancy business (which could be used as a vehicle for a foreign law firm, given the status of foreign lawyers in Thailand). So if this Greg Pitt is an Australian lawyer it is possible that he can practice in Thailand.

My understanding is that foreign lawyers can practice as advisers, but not at the bar as this is restricted to Thai nationals. I cannot locate in the FTA where this requirement has been rescinded. Services under the agreement are not open ended and are specific regards the nature of the services sector. e.g. Tourism & Educations services only permits less than 50% Australian ownership. . FYI below:

"Section 35. An applicant for registration and a License shall have the following qualifications: (1) being of Thai nationality; (2) being at least twenty years of age; (3) having a Bachelor's Degree or an Associate Degree in law or a certificate in law equivalent to a Bachelor's Degree or Associate Degree from an educational institute accredited by the Law Society of Thailand, and must be a member of the Thai Bar Association; (4) not being a person of indecent behavior or delinquent morals or a person whose conduct is indicative of dishonesty; (5) not being imprisoned by a final judgment; (6) never having been imprisoned by a final judgment for an offence which, in the Board's discretion, will impair the integrity of the profession; (7) not being bankrupt by a final judgment; (8) not having an ailment which is contagious and repugnant to the public; (9) not being physically disabled or mentally infirmed which may cause professional incompetence; (10) not being a government official or a local government official with permanent salary and position except a political official."

Edited January 12, 2013 by simple1

[Tomtomtom69]

In Sweden, murderers probably only get like 3-5 years in jail. They are considered small fry. The real criminals are the garlic smugglers as you'll find in this story: http://www.scandasia.com/viewNews.php?coun_code=cn&news_id=11793

It's when people smuggle smelly, but healthy food into a Nordic country that they start issuing arrest warrants. Pity they don't consider murder quite as bad an offence as smuggling a legal, edible commodity.

[binjalin]

embassies are like very old men, lots of talk, but for the most part impotent.

the high ranking persons there just mistake the word for important.

It depends what you expect them to do - they have their job functions and legal limitations. Hardly impotent, given the right circumstances

And - it is NOT up to NZ to make a fuss to have the Swede extradited. The crime took place in Thailand, therefore the Thais should be pursuing it even without prodding by the Kiwis

and why would they do that? they won't be bothered and it will be 'mai pen rai they are not Thai' it's just the Thai way (and of course NZ should be pushing it if he was a NZ citizen it doesn't matter where the crime was committed)

Edited January 12, 2013 by binjalin

[chooka]

@ Simple1 - Thailand's FTA with Australia makes concessions on free movement of natural persons and allows up to 100% Australian ownership in a management consultancy business (which could be used as a vehicle for a foreign law firm, given the status of foreign lawyers in Thailand). So if this Greg Pitt is an Australian lawyer it is possible that he can practice in Thailand.

My understanding is that foreign lawyers can practice as advisers, but not at the bar as this is restricted to Thai nationals. I cannot locate in the FTA where this requirement has been rescinded. Services under the agreement are not open ended and are specific regards the nature of the services sector. e.g. Tourism & Educations services only permits less than 50% Australian ownership. . FYI below:

"Section 35. An applicant for registration and a License shall have the following qualifications: (1) being of Thai nationality; (2) being at least twenty years of age; (3) having a Bachelor's Degree or an Associate Degree in law or a certificate in law equivalent to a Bachelor's Degree or Associate Degree from an educational institute accredited by the Law Society of Thailand, and must be a member of the Thai Bar Association; (4) not being a person of indecent behavior or delinquent morals or a person whose conduct is indicative of dishonesty; (5) not being imprisoned by a final judgment; (6) never having been imprisoned by a final judgment for an offence which, in the Board's discretion, will impair the integrity of the profession; (7) not being bankrupt by a final judgment; (8) not having an ailment which is contagious and repugnant to the public; (9) not being physically disabled or mentally infirmed which may cause professional incompetence; (10) not being a government official or a local government official with permanent salary and position except a political official."

It is actually in another link you provided. http://www.ibanet.org/barassociations/Trade_in_Legal_Services_Thailand.aspx

[binjalin]

@ Simple1 - Thailand's FTA with Australia makes concessions on free movement of natural persons and allows up to 100% Australian ownership in a management consultancy business (which could be used as a vehicle for a foreign law firm, given the status of foreign lawyers in Thailand). So if this Greg Pitt is an Australian lawyer it is possible that he can practice in Thailand.

My understanding is that foreign lawyers can practice as advisers, but not at the bar as this is restricted to Thai nationals. I cannot locate in the FTA where this requirement has been rescinded. Services under the agreement are not open ended and are specific regards the nature of the services sector. e.g. Tourism & Educations services only permits less than 50% Australian ownership. . FYI below:

"Section 35. An applicant for registration and a License shall have the following qualifications: (1) being of Thai nationality; (2) being at least twenty years of age; (3) having a Bachelor's Degree or an Associate Degree in law or a certificate in law equivalent to a Bachelor's Degree or Associate Degree from an educational institute accredited by the Law Society of Thailand, and must be a member of the Thai Bar Association; (4) not being a person of indecent behavior or delinquent morals or a person whose conduct is indicative of dishonesty; (5) not being imprisoned by a final judgment; (6) never having been imprisoned by a final judgment for an offence which, in the Board's discretion, will impair the integrity of the profession; (7) not being bankrupt by a final judgment; (8) not having an ailment which is contagious and repugnant to the public; (9) not being physically disabled or mentally infirmed which may cause professional incompetence; (10) not being a government official or a local government official with permanent salary and position except a political official."

another nationalistic discriminatory thing - can you imagine the US saying 'only US citizens'? if you have the right visa why not? one day... hopefully... this kind of thing will end

[chooka]

@ Simple1 - Thailand's FTA with Australia makes concessions on free movement of natural persons and allows up to 100% Australian ownership in a management consultancy business (which could be used as a vehicle for a foreign law firm, given the status of foreign lawyers in Thailand). So if this Greg Pitt is an Australian lawyer it is possible that he can practice in Thailand.

My understanding is that foreign lawyers can practice as advisers, but not at the bar as this is restricted to Thai nationals. I cannot locate in the FTA where this requirement has been rescinded. Services under the agreement are not open ended and are specific regards the nature of the services sector. e.g. Tourism & Educations services only permits less than 50% Australian ownership. . FYI below:

"Section 35. An applicant for registration and a License shall have the following qualifications: (1) being of Thai nationality; (2) being at least twenty years of age; (3) having a Bachelor's Degree or an Associate Degree in law or a certificate in law equivalent to a Bachelor's Degree or Associate Degree from an educational institute accredited by the Law Society of Thailand, and must be a member of the Thai Bar Association; (4) not being a person of indecent behavior or delinquent morals or a person whose conduct is indicative of dishonesty; (5) not being imprisoned by a final judgment; (6) never having been imprisoned by a final judgment for an offence which, in the Board's discretion, will impair the integrity of the profession; (7) not being bankrupt by a final judgment; (8) not having an ailment which is contagious and repugnant to the public; (9) not being physically disabled or mentally infirmed which may cause professional incompetence; (10) not being a government official or a local government official with permanent salary and position except a political official."

another nationalistic discriminatory thing - can you imagine the US saying 'only US citizens'? if you have the right visa why not? one day... hopefully... this kind of thing will end

But that would mean, you could have a lawyer of your choice instead of the system saying you can only have a Thai lawyer (you cannot have your own) That wouldn't be fair on the Thai Judicial system If I was accused of a seious crime in Thailand I would be looking for ways to flee also.

[Arkady]

The word is that the Swede or his family paid 1 million US Dollars and was released on the Monday after he killed Rob. A limo picked him up from the prison. Rob's greiving girlfriend was paid off, had a new boyfriend within two days of his funeral and is also in the wind!

Another interesting fact is that the Swede had just come from Koh Samui where another farang was stabbed in very similar circumstances(but not killed). Coincidence?

Money talks and big money shouts. Rob's mum does not have the money to fight this so I guess he will just become another statistic. Shame as he was a good guy.

It is cases like this where Thailand needs an impartial investigation unit to follow not only the money trail but to identify those involved that allowed this guy to walk out of the country. It would do Thailand no harm to show transparency in such actions.

I for one have absolutely no doubt that what sgunn65 has written above is how it has transpired that the Swede left the country except perhaps for the amount; 1 million US (30,378,160 Baht) seems a lot even for murder in this country.

Time for the country to come into the 21st century.....................

The number sounds exaggerated. A million baht should have been easily enough to pay off the police. But if he gets extradited (and there is no reason in principle why Sweden shouldn't do so), it will cost him a lot more to pay off police and prosecutors the second time. This was apparently done by the alleged American killer of another Kiwi over a dispute concerning the boiler room scam they were partners in. The US court found the Thai evidence convincing enough to extradite a US citizen to a third world justice system on a capital charge but the Thai prosecutors then fluffed the case in court.

[hughben]

Greg Pitt, managing partner at Thailand law firm Mackenzie Smith, said it would be highly unusual for someone accused of murder to be granted permission to leave the country.

"I think perhaps a brown paper envelope [filled with cash] would have been passed in some way, which is not uncommon.

"He probably had enough cash - and it has to be cash - to get him out of this s..."

How the hell is that acceptable professional behaviour from a law firm?

Was he interviewed in a go-go bar pissed out of his head?

[osiboy]

The word is that the Swede or his family paid 1 million US Dollars and was released on the Monday after he killed Rob. A limo picked him up from the prison. Rob's greiving girlfriend was paid off, had a new boyfriend within two days of his funeral and is also in the wind!

Another interesting fact is that the Swede had just come from Koh Samui where another farang was stabbed in very similar circumstances(but not killed). Coincidence?

Money talks and big money shouts. Rob's mum does not have the money to fight this so I guess he will just become another statistic. Shame as he was a good guy.

It is cases like this where Thailand needs an impartial investigation unit to follow not only the money trail but to identify those involved that allowed this guy to walk out of the country. It would do Thailand no harm to show transparency in such actions.

I for one have absolutely no doubt that what sgunn65 has written above is how it has transpired that the Swede left the country except perhaps for the amount; 1 million US (30,378,160 Baht) seems a lot even for murder in this country.

Time for the country to come into the 21st century.....................

Actually I believe they only paid 6 million baht, although another report said 3 million

the goin rate for a thai corps is usually from 2-500,000baht ,..............Wonder if he would be free if he killed 60 thais @ 500,000b a pop ???

[rep0rter]

Hi guys

I'm the reporter who wrote this article, I work for The Dominion Post newspaper in Wellington, New Zealand.

If anyone has any information or has heard anything regarding this situation please feel free to email or message me, any assistance

[rep0rter]

would be appreciated.

[paz]

@eyeswideopen: re your post #105 What I was saying is that the Swedish authorities will not deport one of their citizens, do not know of any country that would. As you say it's incumbent on Thai law enforcement to request extradition

Some countries do, one springs to mind, UK.

[paz]

embassies are like very old men, lots of talk, but for the most part impotent.

the high ranking persons there just mistake the word for important.

It depends what you expect them to do - they have their job functions and legal limitations. Hardly impotent, given the right circumstances

And - it is NOT up to NZ to make a fuss to have the Swede extradited. The crime took place in Thailand, therefore the Thais should be pursuing it even without prodding by the Kiwis

Not so quick. In my (EU) country there is provision of law for which if a crime involves (suspect or victim) one of our nationals, and is not investigated / brought to trial in the place where it has been commited, our country can claim jurisdiction, issue international arrest warratns and seek extradition, etc. etc. This is how Spanish Judge Garzon got an Argentian repressor and killer arrested and tried in Spain. Or how more vulgarly, how pedophiles are prosecuted by their own countries for crimes done overseas. I don't know if Sweded or NZ have this same law but i think it's likely that they do.

However, it could be very well in the interest of the Swedish that Thailand keeps moving with the legal process. Because as long it does, albeit inefficently and corruptibely, he is safe from the application of the above.

[EyesWideOpen]

24/06/2013

Thai police chase Kiwi's murder accused

Thai police will seek to extradite the alleged killer of a New Zealand man stabbed to death in Thailand, after he was mysteriously allowed to leave the country while on bail. Robert Hollick, 43, died after being knifed in the neck during a bar brawl in tourist hotspot Pattaya last August.

Thai police arrested and charged Swede Andreas Ringvall with his murder, but he left Thailand last October in unusual circumstances. An investigation by Fairfax Media has revealed: Ringvall was released on bail after paying 500,000 baht. Unusually, his passport was returned but Thai Immigration was told not to let him leave the country.

After he was granted bail, an unknown person warned the New Zealand embassy that Ringvall would try to flee. Ringvall was granted permission by the Pattaya court to return to Sweden for two weeks in October, but never returned. An investigation into his disappearance is under way, as it is not usual for murder suspects to be allowed to leave Thailand.

Read more:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/crime/8834932/Thai-police-chase-Kiwis-murder-accused

No matter what the police say, they will not extradite this killer back to face justice here. To do would expose the stink at the police station about how they accepted money to basically let him go . Whatever ranking policeman got the 1 million dollars has to be sweating bullets right now, and has to be fighting tooth and nail to stop this extradition.

Besides, in the eye of the Thai " justice" system that we have all seen time and time again, shouldn't that 1 million dollars go the the family of the man who was killed ?? Or maybe that only applies when rich spoiled brats kill poor people, when a farang kills a farang guess the police pocket the money.

Hope to god I never run afoul of the Thai " justice" system...... unless my family can raise big bucks to get me out of jail !!!! :-)