Good Monks And Bad Monks

[tc101]

In another thread, someone says there are good monks and bad monks in Thailand, but lots more bad ones than good ones. Do other people agree with this? Is Buddhism pretty corrupted in Thailand? Are there many sincere seekers who are monks? Are there any real Buddhist masters?

[jdinasia]

Never saw anyone say there are more bad than good ... but if someone did they probably haven't been around many.

That being said ... there are some you might meet that don't fulfill all the ideals people have. There are many more that come pretty close. It is also probably true that only the best of the best ever get mentioned while everytime there is an issue with a monk that is not positive it gets mentioned.

I have spent time at many temples outside of BKK and been constantly impressed. I have only talked to 2 that made me sad ... they were just guys wearing orange.

[Totster]

IMO I wouldn't say Buddhism is corrupt.

I would say some of the Monks have different attitudes towards devotion.

There has been a couple of the guys here in the village who have become monks and when I've asked them about what they acheived through doing this the answer was always shown with a shrug of the shoulders

I also met a monk on the bus once... who did a good impression of what a monk shouldn't be like.

I hear stories of monks wearing the robes during the day.. then casting them off at night to go dancing with friends...

But on the other hand... there are monks available to give wise words and encouragement, genuinely interested in helping and giving spiritual guidance.....

I believe there is no difference between the Buddhist monks of Thailand and spiritual guiders throughout the world... there will always be those that take it serously, and those who don't, for whatever reason... but the believers will always turn to those who do... the others have no place, and it is known.

totster

[ThaiPauly]

I have to agree with Totstar here. The Temple in which we have our "dying" Monk in BK is full of tattoed youths and if it was not for the Robes, you would not want to meet them in a dark alley.

Bear in mind that many "Monks" ordain for a short while just to "Make Merit" for their family.

IMHO this is all wrong.

In the Cof E world one does not become a Vicar for a few months and then goes back to dealing drugs!!!

This is one hang up I really can't get my head round with Bhuddism

[Guest endure]

Vicars become vicars so they can have a 'flock' to take care of. Monks become monks to seek their own salvation, not other people's.

[ThaiPauly]

Vicars become vicars so they can have a 'flock' to take care of. Monks become monks to seek their own salvation, not other people's.

Are you sure about that Endure?

[frond]

This is one hang up I really can't get my head round with Bhuddism

I don't think it has much to do with Buddhism itself, but with how Thais define karma and merit. It's 100% self-serving INMHO.

"Bad monks" only proliferate if given the chance to. Many temples do not care what their monks do (smoke cigarettes, gamble, chase the ladies, etc) as long as the donations keep rolling in. Many abbots are just as corrupt and greedy as Thaksin is. The sangha has become less respected over the years, many monks are terrible community role models; many young Thai people have no interest in Buddhism because of this (and the all-consuming, attractive materialist lifestyle helps as well!). With that said there are many more monks who are serious and stick to the tenets of Budhism--we just don't notice them!

[camerata]

In another thread, someone says there are good monks and bad monks in Thailand, but lots more bad ones than good ones. Do other people agree with this? Is Buddhism pretty corrupted in Thailand? Are there many sincere seekers who are monks? Are there any real Buddhist masters?

There have been other threads about this. Due to the pressures of colonialism, mainstream Buddhism in Thailand was changed to what it is today, with an emphasis on book learning for monks and making merit for lay people.

Men can and do ordain for many reasons - an escape from life, to make merit for parents, to get an education, etc. So a lot of monks aren't really in it as a path to enlightenment. There are a lot of functionaries and religious bureaucrats in the Sangha.

There certainly have been mediation masters here. Check out the book, Forest Recollections, or anything by Ajahn Chah and his disciples. What's called the Thai Forest Tradition is where most of the masters trained.

[bankei]

It depends on how you would define a good monk. I stayed in a Temple with about 20 monks there. None meditated, all used mobile phones and money. But they did the chanting, went to invitations and were generally considered to be good monks by the lay people.

While I was a monk there, one of the senior monks came in and gave me a bag of soup at night. I was with a lay person at the time, and the monk didn't try to hide it. I suspected this was against the rules, and asked the monk, but he said it was ok as it was clear soup with no 'food' in it. When he left my room, I asked the pay person, a Thai, who said, after much prompting, that monks shouldn't be eating soup at night. So I didn't eat that soup. But the lay person still held that monk, and others in high regard. The monk was worried that I might be hungry as I was a newly ordained monk, and not sued to not eating at night.

At my temple, I would say there are many good monks, as in good people, but not many good at following the precepts.

Bankei

[lopburi3]

Although I have no experience other than as an outside lay person I believe a monk can indeed eat after the noon deadline if it is for medical reasons but that for appearance sake this would normally not be done in public and that bankei did the right thing in not consuming it but that the senior monk may have been concerned about his medical state and was probably not in violation of any rules and as such should not have lost respect.

[thaibebop]

I have no real knowledge of this but I have been given the impression that if there is corruption it's in temples in major cities and ones that bring in more money than others. Is this the wrong impression to have?

[bankei]

Lopburi

According to the Vinaya monks can have food after noon if medicine - and they are sick. But I doubt this could be classed as medicine in this case. The soup wasn't just for me, but a number of monks ate/drank soup that night.

I think it may come down to a definition of food. Is a clear liquid food or drink? Some monks refuse to drink milk after noon as they consider this a food.

On another occaision, I witnessed a 'bad' monk (with 21 Vassa) actually buy an ice cream after noon and eat it. He had the gall to ask me to pay for it!

Thaibebop, I was thinking the other way around. Monks in the cities tend to be more educated, and know the rules better. But this is not always the case and you probably cannot generalise like this.

Bankei

[thaibebop]

Lopburi

According to the Vinaya monks can have food after noon if medicine - and they are sick. But I doubt this could be classed as medicine in this case. The soup wasn't just for me, but a number of monks ate/drank soup that night.

I think it may come down to a definition of food. Is a clear liquid food or drink? Some monks refuse to drink milk after noon as they consider this a food.

On another occaision, I witnessed a 'bad' monk (with 21 Vassa) actually buy an ice cream after noon and eat it. He had the gall to ask me to pay for it!

Thaibebop, I was thinking the other way around. Monks in the cities tend to be more educated, and know the rules better. But this is not always the case and you probably cannot generalise like this.

Bankei

I am not generalising, just repeating what I have heard and read. I really don't know either way. What I have read though doesn't deal with the knowledge rules of Buddhism so much as the monks in the cities are closer to money and have more ways to get some in major cities. So, the rural monk might be more inclined to follow the rules, so to speak because their is less money to be made where he is at. Once, I have no opinion either way and am just adding to the conversaion by dicussing what information I have encoutered.

[backflip]

Thailand has mandatory conscription, and men are given the choice of military service, or as a monk. Some that enter the latter catagory view it as a way to scam people, similar to televangelists in the US. Without the studies and the devotion, they live off of people's goodwill.

While on a flight within the US, I sat next to a Catholic priest. When the flight attendant tried to rent a pair of headphones to him for the movie, he smiled and continued to read his bible. After the lights dimmed, he opened his briefcase, retrieved a stolen pair of headphones, and watched the movie. As the attendant went through the aisles picking up the headphones, he placed his in his case, and began reading his bible again.

[camerata]

In my experience, the only choices available to the average Thai who doesn't want to be conscripted are signing up for the Reserve Officers Training Corps or paying under the table. Most Thai men will go into the monkhood for a short period before they marry, but rarely longer than 3 months.

[thaibebop]

In my experience, the only choices available to the average Thai who doesn't want to be conscripted are signing up for the Reserve Officers Training Corps or paying under the table. Most Thai men will go into the monkhood for a short period before they marry, but rarely longer than 3 months.

My father-in-law wants me to be a monk for a little while, even though I am married. He said all men should go, that it helps a person to become a better person.

[khall64au]

In my experience, the only choices available to the average Thai who doesn't want to be conscripted are signing up for the Reserve Officers Training Corps or paying under the table. Most Thai men will go into the monkhood for a short period before they marry, but rarely longer than 3 months.

My father-in-law wants me to be a monk for a little while, even though I am married. He said all men should go, that it helps a person to become a better person.

Depends where your mind is at and your motive for entering monk hood. Disturbingly, many monks ain't what they used to be! Sign of the times .... ?

[thaibebop]

In my experience, the only choices available to the average Thai who doesn't want to be conscripted are signing up for the Reserve Officers Training Corps or paying under the table. Most Thai men will go into the monkhood for a short period before they marry, but rarely longer than 3 months.

My father-in-law wants me to be a monk for a little while, even though I am married. He said all men should go, that it helps a person to become a better person.

Depends where your mind is at and your motive for entering monk hood. Disturbingly, many monks ain't what they used to be! Sign of the times .... ?

Well, I am just talking about my father-in-law who is a very good man. He never had a son, two daughters and I think he would like to see me be a monk for a short time because he would've wanted his son to do so. I don't think he has much hope for my brother-in-law though. He may have already been a monk but he is hopeless. Rich pampered boy who is too slow of mind most of the time.

[tc101]

It depends on how you would define a good monk. I stayed in a Temple with about 20 monks there. None meditated, all used mobile phones and money. But they did the chanting, went to invitations and were generally considered to be good monks by the lay people.

At my temple, I would say there are many good monks, as in good people, but not many good at following the precepts.

Bankei

Do many monks meditate? If not, why not? Do they think that meditation has any positive effect?

.

Edited June 8, 2006 by tc101

[bankei]

I think at the average temple very few monks actually meditate. At my temple there were not group meditiation sessions, it is up to each monk to practice (or not practice). Most knew about meditation and could talk about it. One senior monk came to my room and suggested we meditate. I started meditating and had a peek at him, suspecting he wasn't meditating, he was laying down asleep!

Other rules broken by the monks include listening to music - some had mp3 players on most of the time. Another temporary monk smuggled in a playstation and TV into his room some days he didn't even make it to bindabart (almsround) in the moring because he was up all night playing games. All monks there used money. But these were all minor rules in the vinaya yet every monk recited these rules during the ordination ceremony.

I must say that even though the monks were breaking many minor rules they were all very good people - except one!

[tc101]

I think at the average temple very few monks actually meditate.

I must say that even though the monks were breaking many minor rules they were all very good people - except one!

It is good to hear they are mostly good people. It is interesting that most do not meditate.

I wonder about meditation some times. It is interesting that in a culture where it has existed for thousands of years, there is not more of a consensus about its benifits. If it really works, why don't people know that it works and do it?

Actually, I know that it works for me. If I meditate regularly I am more calm and happy than if I don't.

Meditation is being perscribed for chronic pain by medical people who have no interest in Buddhism. They have just learned that it works. It is also perscribed for anxiety.

So I wonder why it is not more popular amoung Thai monks.

.

[albert dickinson]

There are an estimatd 700,000 monks in the country what is their contribution to sosciety How many criminals are hiding behind the orange robe.Why dothey remain seated when the national anthem is being played.Why do old ladies on baht busses get up to let a monk sit down.Tell me about the abbot who had 60 Mercedes and another one who kept an elephant chained to a tre for 10 years. Albert

[camerata]

There are an estimatd 700,000 monks in the country what is their contribution to sosciety How many criminals are hiding behind the orange robe.Why dothey remain seated when the national anthem is being played.Why do old ladies on baht busses get up to let a monk sit down.Tell me about the abbot who had 60 Mercedes and another one who kept an elephant chained to a tre for 10 years. Albert

1. They provide the primary means for Thais to make merit for a better future life, they provide blessings at marriage ceremonies, they conduct funerals, they act as role models for Buddhists.

2. Possibly none, since all are registered and would therefore be caught if they were convicted criminals.

3. They are supposed to be above wordly concerns.

4. Monks are not allowed to touch women. On buses people arrange themselves so that this won't happen.

5. So there are a few bad apples in the monkhood, as there are in any other group of human beings. No surprise there.

[camerata]

So I wonder why it is not more popular amoung Thai monks.

Two reasons that I know of. One is that from around 100 years ago Buddhism in Thailand became more book-learning oriented, since this was considered more "rational." Hence the requirement that monks pass the nak tham Pali exam before they can ordain other monks. The other is that many Thai men join the monkhood for short periods, or because they haven't any other choices in life, or a variety of other personal reasons. So it may be more like an occupation than a spiritual quest for them.

[sabaijai]

Well said, Camerata, on both counts.

Albert, welcome to the Buddhism branch of thaivisa.com's expat forum. When you have time, please read the welcome message pinned to the top of this forum branch. thanks.

[tc101]

Albert, welcome to the Buddhism branch of thaivisa.com's expat forum. When you have time, please read the welcome message pinned to the top of this forum branch. thanks.

The thing that can be confusing on ThaiVisa is that Albert might have seen this discussion when he clicked "View New Posts". He may never have been to the Buddhism forum branch.

I am a regular in Buddhism, but there are messages that I read by clicking "View New Posts" that come from other forums that I don't know anything about.

.

[sabaijai]

Albert, welcome to the Buddhism branch of thaivisa.com's expat forum. When you have time, please read the welcome message pinned to the top of this forum branch. thanks.

The thing that can be confusing on ThaiVisa is that Albert might have seen this discussion when he clicked "View New Posts". He may never have been to the Buddhism forum branch.

I am a regular in Buddhism, but there are messages that I read by clicking "View New Posts" that come from other forums that I don't know anything about.

.

You're right, tc101. I never thought of that, thanks for pointing it out.

[bankei]

So I wonder why it is not more popular amoung Thai monks.

Two reasons that I know of. One is that from around 100 years ago Buddhism in Thailand became more book-learning oriented, since this was considered more "rational." Hence the requirement that monks pass the nak tham Pali exam before they can ordain other monks. The other is that many Thai men join the monkhood for short periods, or because they haven't any other choices in life, or a variety of other personal reasons. So it may be more like an occupation than a spiritual quest for them.

Maybe another reason. The monks are rather busy!. In the morning after bindabart, they clean up do some washing, and then are often invited out to ceremonies for lunch. Then come back, maybe clean up a bit, have a little nap, then there is often a group clean up session. Seeing visitors, and chatting to other monks, then it is evening chanting, then it is late so go to bed so they can get up early the next morning again.

Bankei

[Shariberries]

I have to agree with Totstar here. The Temple in which we have our "dying" Monk in BK is full of tattoed youths and if it was not for the Robes, you would not want to meet them in a dark alley.

Bear in mind that many "Monks" ordain for a short while just to "Make Merit" for their family.

IMHO this is all wrong.

In the Cof E world one does not become a Vicar for a few months and then goes back to dealing drugs!!!

This is one hang up I really can't get my head round with Bhuddism

As far as I am aware, becoming a temporary monk (for a week or for a couple of months) only occurs in Thai Buddhism. I haven't heard of any other form of Buddhism that allows their monks to purposely become ordained for a short while.

[Shariberries]

There are an estimatd 700,000 monks in the country what is their contribution to sosciety How many criminals are hiding behind the orange robe.Why dothey remain seated when the national anthem is being played.Why do old ladies on baht busses get up to let a monk sit down.Tell me about the abbot who had 60 Mercedes and another one who kept an elephant chained to a tre for 10 years. Albert

Interesting. Sounds like some corrupt Christian priests in the U.S.