Khun Jean Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 (edited) For the foreigner it would not make a difference, the usufruct stays in place. The wife however could be in for a fight with the rest of the family, but also she has the advantage that when she is still married with the foreigner she can enjoy the usufruct too. As the question is how to protect the foreigners interest, this solution is the best i can think of. It might not be the best for the Thai wife. The will and inheriting part is her problem, a will can be made, you can not prevent changes, maybe the wife has to keep mom as a friend. If you want to prevent all of this, the solution is simple. The wife buys the land from her mother. The extra tax that have to be paid is in the big picture peanuts. The example i gave is from my personal experience, we did not bother with the extra transfer to the wife as we are sure she will inherit it. Always keep the number of transactions as low and as simple as possible. Edited January 13, 2013 by Khun Jean Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigbamboo Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Just rent and buy when ready to come here it would be cheaper and also a better investment unlike West house prices do not go up here as they get old sent from-would like to know Of all the posts I would say this is the soundest advice. Ten years is a long time hence, prices do not go up much here but the condition of the property after ten years of renting might be an issue. It will be either reassuring or telling to hear your wife's reaction to deferring. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transam Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Just rent and buy when ready to come here it would be cheaper and also a better investment unlike West house prices do not go up here as they get old sent from-would like to know Mine has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamescollister Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 MIL can transfer the land anytime she wants. The usufruct stays in place, it does not loose its validity upon the MIL's death either. And yes it will hold up in case of divorce. The only 'risk' is between the moment the land is bought in MIL's name and when the usufruct is made. Doing it on the same moment is possible but can be refused as it is seen as that the MIL is a proxy for the foreigner. I waited six months. Good point, but if MIL transferred it to the wife, would we not be back at 1469 of the civil code. Wife can avoid the deal at anytime. If transferred to kids, wife wins custody. Out on your ear anyways. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khun Jean Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 No because the contract is not made between the wife and husband. That the wife ends up with the contract does not change that. It would even be better to do this all before getting married, or even divorce for a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamescollister Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 No because the contract is not made between the wife and husband. That the wife ends up with the contract does not change that. It would even be better to do this all before getting married, or even divorce for a while. Don't know about that one, land acquired after marriage becomes communal property. Think skating on thin ice there., family court would decide, but may work, no sure. Wouldn't bet the farm on it. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khun Jean Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 (edited) Land aquired by a Thai woman with a foreign husband is NOT communal property. Otherwise it would not be such a difficult point for foreigners. I think everyone would be very happy to have land as communal property. But, it is hers and hers alone. Any contracts made before she acquires it stays on the chanote. To make it a little more complicated it can be the case when the foreign husband not use his money to aquire the usefruct or lease then that can be seen as communal property. Aint it fun, Thai law. . Edited January 13, 2013 by Khun Jean 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamescollister Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 Land aquired by a Thai woman with a foreign husband is NOT communal property. Otherwise it would not be such a difficult point for foreigners. I think everyone would be very happy to have land as communal property. But, it is hers and hers alone. Any contracts made before she acquires it stays on the chanote. To make it a little more complicated it can be the case when the foreign husband not use his money to aquire the usefruct or lease then that can be seen as communal property. Aint it fun, Thai law. . Think I will stick to my system out here in the jungles of Issan [ Lao land border ] wife owns everything. Things go wrong, I get to leave a live.Have to say the civil code is fairly long, maybe I have missed something, but seems to me that as an alien they have you screwed, if it does not breach the civil code it breaches other land laws and criminal laws. Jim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiamondKing Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 (edited) Who Cares, if you got married to the right lady and have a fairly normal relationship with a normal thai women who cares about her children just leave it to your kids its not like you would throw them out on the streets even if you could sell so its a mute point with me the house is for my kids and family if we split I will be happy to know my kids are taken care of and are living in a nice place with their family and Dad wont be far away in a cheap rented room so I can still see them regularly and be part of their life Edited January 13, 2013 by DiamondKing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommoPhysicist Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 (edited) Who Cares, if you got married to the right lady and have a fairly normal relationship with a normal thai women who cares about her children just leave it to your kids its not like you would throw them out on the streets even if you could sell so its a mute point with me the house is for my kids and family if we split I will be happy to know my kids are taken care of and are living in a nice place with their family and Dad wont be far away in a cheap rented room so I can still see them regularly and be part of their life Not forgetting some of these 'normal' Thai women send their daughters to work in Pattaya or sell them for 2000bht. Then there are the 'normal' Thai women who gamble, can't manage money, or take loans out on their homes for foolish family business ventures ........ The best way to buy a house for your children, is to buy it in their name, with you as the 'manager'.. Edited January 13, 2013 by TommoPhysicist Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiamondKing Posted January 13, 2013 Share Posted January 13, 2013 (edited) Who Cares, if you got married to the right lady and have a fairly normal relationship with a normal thai women who cares about her children just leave it to your kids its not like you would throw them out on the streets even if you could sell so its a mute point with me the house is for my kids and family if we split I will be happy to know my kids are taken care of and are living in a nice place with their family and Dad wont be far away in a cheap rented room so I can still see them regularly and be part of their life Not forgetting some of these 'normal' Thai women send their daughters to work in Pattaya or sell them for 2000bht. Then there are the 'normal' Thai women who gamble, can't manage money, or take loans out on their homes for foolish family business ventures ........ The best way to buy a house for your children, is to buy it in their name, with you as the 'manager'.. Who Cares, if you got married to the right lady and have a fairly normal relationship with a normal thai women who cares about her children just leave it to your kids its not like you would throw them out on the streets even if you could sell so its a mute point with me the house is for my kids and family if we split I will be happy to know my kids are taken care of and are living in a nice place with their family and Dad wont be far away in a cheap rented room so I can still see them regularly and be part of their life Not forgetting some of these 'normal' Thai women send their daughters to work in Pattaya or sell them for 2000bht. Then there are the 'normal' Thai women who gamble, can't manage money, or take loans out on their homes for foolish family business ventures ........ The best way to buy a house for your children, is to buy it in their name, with you as the 'manager'.. Hmmm tommo sounds like you have your hands full I actually mean someone not like that, Edited January 13, 2013 by DiamondKing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TommoPhysicist Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 I actually mean someone not like that, How could you possibly tell in advance? Oh yeah, I know some guys say they can tell, but mostly that's just denial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transam Posted January 14, 2013 Share Posted January 14, 2013 I actually mean someone not like that, How could you possibly tell in advance? Oh yeah, I know some guys say they can tell, but mostly that's just denial. Or daft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reflectionx Posted January 16, 2013 Author Share Posted January 16, 2013 Ok, in laws went to Krabi LO, they were told the office does not supply the usurfruct form. Does anyone have a copy of a form from another LO? Or I can just use the sample at samuiforsale? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bangkokburning Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 OP seems like a bright guy but so much of your plan seems to only create potential grief and loss. Build a house - but not around when the house is built Use the house but not stay ft there (theft, wear) Rent the house (absentee landlord nightmares) Move back to the 15yo old - wear/tear, neighborhood goes south Taxes. Not lg sum but a negative as you are not residing there. Are you sure you could even let the place and what sort of rent? Money for land if not house - write it off Cant own the land unless wife dies All sorts of legal issues with the house (tax, transf, ownership...) If it ever came to anything legal, this is more money - and youd lose anyway I cant see a benefit at all for you building thus to maybe live in 15yrs from now. Finally, I really hope you are talking BKK suburbs cause if you are building in Nskon Nowhere its an even worse idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamescollister Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 Ok, in laws went to Krabi LO, they were told the office does not supply the usurfruct form. Does anyone have a copy of a form from another LO? Or I can just use the sample at samuiforsale? Thanks. Useless piece of paper, may even be considered to be trying to circumvent Thai land laws. Signing a fraudulent statement. Up to you. Jim Memorandum For the Usufruct (for a period of lifetime) บันทึกข้อตกลงเรื่องสิทธิเก็บกิน(ตลอดชีวิต) Land ที่ดิน Grid map ระวาง Nong Khang Khok Sub-district ตำบล หนองข้างคอก Land number survey page Mueang Chon Buri District เลขที่ดิน หน้าสำรวจ เมืองชลบุรี Deed No. Chon Buri Province โฉนดเลขที่ จังหวัด ชลบุรี Chon Buri Provincial Land Office สำนักงานที่ดินจังหวัดชลบุรี Date - Month October 2010 วันที่ - เดือน ตุลาคม พ.ศ. 2553 Name the owner ข้าพเจ้า ผู้ถือกรรมสิทธิ์ Mr.____________________- the Usufructuary ผู้ทรงสิทธิเก็บกิน __ years of age ___ Race: Thai , Nationality. Thai Father/Mother Name. Mr.____________- Mrs. _____________ อายุ _____ปี เชื้อชาติ ทย สัญชาติ ไทย Residence at No. Alley Road Moo. อยู่ ที่บ้าน/หมู่บ้าน - เลขที่ __ ตรอก/ซอย – ถนน – หมู่ที่ __ ได้ทำบันทึกข้อตกลงต่อเจ้าพนักงาน ที่ดิน ดังต่อไปนี้ :- Have made this memorandum with the land official as follows: The above land plot is owned by me, Ms. _____ , hereby consent and grant to Mr. ______________ as the Usufructuary with the right to possess, use and have benefit on the Land for a period of a lifetime of the Usufructuary and I, Mr. ______________ accepts the said right of usufruct from Ms. __________________. บันทึก ข้อตกลงฉบับนี้ทำขึ้นหนึ่งฉบับ เก็บไว้ ณ สำนักงานที่ดิน ทั้งสองฝ่ายได้ตรวจดูบันทึกข้อตกลง และเข้าใจข้อความตลอดแล้ว จึงลงลายมือชื่อหรือลงลายพิมพ์นิ้วมือไว้เป็นหลักฐานต่อหน้าพยานและเจ้า พนักงานที่ดิน This memorandum was made for I original copy kept by the Land Office, both parties have examined this memorandum and thoroughly understood all the terms and provisions herein contained then sign their name or make a fingerprints in the presence of witness before the Land Official Owne ผู้ถือกรรมสิทธิ์ Signed By _______________________ ลงชื่อ The Usufructuary ผู้ทรงสิทธิเก็บกิน Signed By _______________________ ลงชื่อ Witness _______________________พยาน Witness _______________________พยาน THE LAND OFFICIAL เจ้าพนักงานที่ดิน Signed By _______________________ ลงชื่อ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Khun Jean Posted January 17, 2013 Share Posted January 17, 2013 I think you need to backup that statement and explain why it is fraudulent? Relevant passages from the law would be helpful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reflectionx Posted January 30, 2013 Author Share Posted January 30, 2013 I have another question. With the exchange rate heading the wrong way (it would cost me $10 000 more to buy the house today as compared to 2012 rate), I probably won't be able to buy the house. If it doesn't change back to 2012 levels, we are considering buying land only and build house when we are ready to move back for good. We gave the builder 100 000 to "reserve" the house, and he gave us a small piece of paper (a receipt). As I said, if the exchange rate does not go in the "right" direction or if he does not discount the negotiated price to offset the impact, I won't be able to buy the house. Since the receipt he gave us does not mention anything about the deposit not being refundable and we have not signed anything else, would I be able to get my money back? Thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamescollister Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I have another question. With the exchange rate heading the wrong way (it would cost me $10 000 more to buy the house today as compared to 2012 rate), I probably won't be able to buy the house. If it doesn't change back to 2012 levels, we are considering buying land only and build house when we are ready to move back for good. We gave the builder 100 000 to "reserve" the house, and he gave us a small piece of paper (a receipt). As I said, if the exchange rate does not go in the "right" direction or if he does not discount the negotiated price to offset the impact, I won't be able to buy the house. Since the receipt he gave us does not mention anything about the deposit not being refundable and we have not signed anything else, would I be able to get my money back? Thanks. Would say you a 100,000 down the tube. Don't understand why you would give it in the first place. Jim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamescollister Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 I think you need to backup that statement and explain why it is fraudulent? Relevant passages from the law would be helpful. If you have signed a document saying money is a gift to the wife and you make no claim to the land, then 5 minutes later at another desk make a claim via usufruct to the land. You clearly are trying to circumvent Thai land laws, first document you signed was a lie. Signing a false declaration any where in the world is a crime and a police matter. Jim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reflectionx Posted January 31, 2013 Author Share Posted January 31, 2013 (edited) Would say you a 100,000 down the tube. Don't understand why you would give it in the first place. Jim Could you elaborate? I have a receipt for money I paid; why wouldn't be I able to get it back? I hope Bank of Thailand will move their lazy a$$e$ and get the rate back on track as I really want this property. Edited January 31, 2013 by reflectionx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamescollister Posted January 31, 2013 Share Posted January 31, 2013 Would say you a 100,000 down the tube. Don't understand why you would give it in the first place. Jim Could you elaborate? I have a receipt for money I paid; why wouldn't be I able to get it back? I hope Bank of Thailand will move their lazy a$$e$ and get the rate back on track as I really want this property. It wasn't a loan you were paying for a service, of some type and you placed a deposit down.Am willing to bet the receipt doesn't say the deposit is refundable if you back out. As to the strong Baht, don't think there is much the BoT can do, it's a week west that is the problem. Not good for me either, sell rubber. Price set in US $, paid in Baht. Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reflectionx Posted January 31, 2013 Author Share Posted January 31, 2013 Would say you a 100,000 down the tube. Don't understand why you would give it in the first place. Jim Could you elaborate? I have a receipt for money I paid; why wouldn't be I able to get it back? I hope Bank of Thailand will move their lazy a$$e$ and get the rate back on track as I really want this property. It wasn't a loan you were paying for a service, of some type and you placed a deposit down.Am willing to bet the receipt doesn't say the deposit is refundable if you back out. As to the strong Baht, don't think there is much the BoT can do, it's a week west that is the problem. Not good for me either, sell rubber. Price set in US $, paid in Baht. Jim Nor does it say that it is NOT refundable. Depends on the point of view. As I said, I want this property, and many things will change over the next several months. I've setup and account with xe.com, and they allow to lock a rate and purchase for up to a year later. Their rates for large amounts are comparable to TT rates of Thai banks. So if it ever hits acceptable rate, I am ready to lock it in. My only regret is I didn't do it before (((( Actually, there is a lot BoT can do - reduce interest rate, print THB and buy $. Govt can also impose tax on investments, etc etc etc. Lots of other countries are doing it. But there are a bunch of threads here, and it's out of the scope of this topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
swissie Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 If you buy a house in your wife's name it is hers, you will have no control over what she does with it. This you need the husbands signature only applies to Thais. I am a slow typer, so will cut and paste. THAI MARRIAGE LAWS specify that property belonging to either spouse before the marriage and khongman (section 1437) remains personal property during the marriage, and each spouse shall remain the sole manager of his or her personal property (Section 1473). Section 1472: 'if personal property during the marriage has been exchanged for other property, other property has been bought or money has been acquired from selling it, such other property or money acquired shall remain personal property (Sin Suan Tua)'. Personal property (Sin Suan Tua) under Thai marriage laws (section 1471) consists of: property belonging to either spouse before marriage property for personal use, dress or ornament suitable for station in life, or tools necessary for carrying on the profession of either spouse property acquired by either spouse during marriage through a will or gift Khongman. Jointly owned matrimonial property A marriage in Thailand creates jointly owned marital property (Sin Somros) between husband and wife. Property acquired during the course of the marriage (subject to the above section 1472) and 'fruits' of personal property during marriage will become jointly owned property between husband and wife. Jointly owned property (section 1474) between husband and wife (Sin Somros) consists of: property acquired during marriage; property acquired by either spouse during marriage through a will of gift made in writing if it is declared by such will or document of gift to be Sin Somros; fruits of Sin Suan Tua. In case of doubt as to whether a property in Sin Somros or not shall be presumed to be Sin Somros. Management over property during marriage; A prenuptial contract made before the marriage in Thailand may grant sole management of certain jointly owned property to one of the spouses. Without a prenuptial agreement the properties specified in section 1476 must be managed jointly by the husband and wife. Section 1476. 'In managing the Sin Somros in the following cases, the husband and wife have to be joint manager, or one spouse has to obtain consent from the other: 1. Selling, exchanging, sale with the right of redemption, letting out property on hire-purchase, mortgaging, releasing mortgage to mortgagor or transferring the right of mortgage on immovable property or on mortgageable movable property. 2. Creating or distinguishing the whole or a part of the servitude, right of habitation, right of superficies, usufruct or charge on immovable property. 3. Letting immovable property for more than three years. 4. Lending money 5. Making a gift unless it is a gift for charitable, social or moral purposes and is suitable to the family condition. 6. Making a compromise. 7. Submitting a dispute to arbitration. 8. Putting up the property as guarantee or security with a competent official or the Court. The management of the Sin Somros in any case other than those provided in paragraph above can be made only by one spouse without having to obtain consent from the other'. -- Management over real estate during marriage The most important jointly managed asset between husband and wife in section 1476 is immovable property. However, in case of a foreigner married to a Thai national, land in Thailand (often land and house) will because of foreign ownership restrictions be owned by the Thai spouse as a personal property. It will not be a common property governed by section 1476 and the Thai spouse will be the sole manager of the property. The Thai spouse is able sell, mortgage or encumber the property without the consent of the foreign spouse. Note that it is only the land aspect of the property that is restricted for foreign ownership, not the structures upon on the land. Structures on the land (the house) can be a jointly owned or even personal of the foreign spouse. Co-ownership or ownership by the foreign spouse over the building separate from the land restricts sole management by the Thai spouse. The Thai spouse would not be able to manage or sell the whole property without the consent of the foreign spouse (pursuant section 1476 'management of Sin Somros' above). Section 1475: 'Where any Sin Somros is property of the kind mentioned in Section 456 (meaning immovable property) of this Code or has documentary title, either husband or wife may apply for having his or her name entered in the documents as co-owners'. The most common method for the foreign spouse to protect his interest lies not in registration of ownership over the building but in registering a right of usufruct, or in case of undeveloped land a right of superficies over the land in favor of the foreign spouse. Divorce and division If it ever should come to pass, that above text would have to be translated into the mother-languge of the potential-"farang-land-buyer" and the farang has to sign accordingly (as to having "understood the full meaning of this document", before even beeing allowed to engage in any "Land-Purchase or House-Building Activities, " the urge for farangs to engage in such activities would be greatly reduced in the first place. But as far as I can see, above comments to this thread mainly bring out the the "Denial-Crowd". Ergo: "None of this will ever affect me, have loving wife and loyal Thai-Family and if that doesen't help, I get a good Bangkok-Lawyer, that will straighten out things in my favor. Good luck. Cheers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamescollister Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 Swissie A Thai lawyer can draw up a contract that says I own Issan and can collect rent off everyone. He takes no responsibility and is not accountable for his paid advice. If it was illegal and jail time comes up, you will not be sharing a cell with the lawyer. Jim 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbrer Posted February 6, 2013 Share Posted February 6, 2013 10 years rental income? Just buy a condo in your name mate. If you want to live in a house for the short period you are here just use the rental income from the condo to cover it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anthony an Panida Posted September 19, 2013 Share Posted September 19, 2013 Hi. We prefer to sell houses under managed contract with shared ownership - that way you get control over your land. Of course, some people don't care. They should just rent rather than give it away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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