A S T V Loses Signal After Soldiers' Protest: Bangkok

[jayboy]

I find it strange when others don't fit your labels and preconceived concepts, it is they who are wrong and not you. The thread is about soldiers protesting an insult to their leader, not the ICJ, a temple or Thaksin.

You would very much like to keep the underlying causes and relevant background out of it, I know.Most people I suspect would ask what prompted the insult (a silly one as I previously agreede).Anyway discussion on all that can be left for another time.Coming back to the soldiers protest you have studiously avoided addressing the unvarnished truth that gatherings of this kind by soldiers in uniform are intolerable.A secondary point is that soldiers are subject to a chain of command, so that if these misguided lower ranks are not disciplined then more senior officers are also implicated.By "disciplined" I'm not suggesting anything harsh, a taking to and lecture in civic responsibility -that sort of thing.The problem is that generals have set such a poor example in the past that it's perhaps not too surprising that the lower ranks are confused about the army's role in society.

<flame deleted> To a Thai, this is a serious insult based on their male-dominated culture.

If this kind of protest is intolerable then it will be covered by RTA regulations, otherwise it is intolerable to you because of your anti-military bias, again not unusual in the ivory tower academia set.

I still have seen no response to why non-commissioned military ranks lose their right to protest against insults levelled at their service. This is not political, on their part at least.

BTW chain of command does NOT stop soldiers thinking, having feelings and being offended. Try to grasp the concept of off-duty.

Nobody disputes soldiers are entitled to political views.What is unacceptable is gathering in a gang and (critical point) in uniform with the threat of "further action".This would be a disciplinary matter in the armies of most countries.

I don't know the specific RTA regulations (do you?) but would be surprised if there wasn't a similar provision to those say of the US and UK military.

A cynic might argue that the Thai army regulations also prohibit involvement in politics, corruption, murder of Southern Muslims, murder of political protestors, not running away from the enemy etc.Whether that cynic was justified in what he implied, I could not possibly say

[Thai at Heart]

Soldiers shouldn't get dragged into this type of petty rubbish. Ordinarily, uniformed soldiers aren't allowed to make this type of protest arbitrarily are they? Would you be allowed time off to go and complain or protest at a tv station?

Ironically, the reds should go round to ASTV, to defend the army. Lol

Soldiers shouldn't get dragged into this type of petty rubbish..........because it offends you.

Ordinarily, uniformed soldiers aren't allowed to make this type of protest arbitrarily are they? When you hear, or much more likely don't, that disciplinary charges are being applied, you will know the rules for the RTA. As very senior NCOs are involved, and those men tend to be very much aware of the rules and regulations, IMHO you are blowing hot air to support your bias.

I am not anti or biased. I don't love astv one bit. Just find it odd to see army personnel protesting at a tv station in uniform.

Find it odd like many things here, then get over it.

Get over it? If it isn't an issue, why is it even reported. The army protesting the media in Thailand, is quite a serious precedent i would say.

[OzMick]

I find it strange when others don't fit your labels and preconceived concepts, it is they who are wrong and not you. The thread is about soldiers protesting an insult to their leader, not the ICJ, a temple or Thaksin.

You would very much like to keep the underlying causes and relevant background out of it, I know.Most people I suspect would ask what prompted the insult (a silly one as I previously agreede).Anyway discussion on all that can be left for another time.Coming back to the soldiers protest you have studiously avoided addressing the unvarnished truth that gatherings of this kind by soldiers in uniform are intolerable.A secondary point is that soldiers are subject to a chain of command, so that if these misguided lower ranks are not disciplined then more senior officers are also implicated.By "disciplined" I'm not suggesting anything harsh, a taking to and lecture in civic responsibility -that sort of thing.The problem is that generals have set such a poor example in the past that it's perhaps not too surprising that the lower ranks are confused about the army's role in society.

<flame deleted> To a Thai, this is a serious insult based on their male-dominated culture.

If this kind of protest is intolerable then it will be covered by RTA regulations, otherwise it is intolerable to you because of your anti-military bias, again not unusual in the ivory tower academia set.

I still have seen no response to why non-commissioned military ranks lose their right to protest against insults levelled at their service. This is not political, on their part at least.

BTW chain of command does NOT stop soldiers thinking, having feelings and being offended. Try to grasp the concept of off-duty.

Nobody disputes soldiers are entitled to political views.What is unacceptable is gathering in a gang and (critical point) in uniform with the threat of "further action".This would be a disciplinary matter in the armies of most countries.

I don't know the specific RTA regulations (do you?) but would be surprised if there wasn't a similar provision to those say of the US and UK military.

A cynic might argue that the Thai army regulations also prohibit involvement in politics, corruption, murder of Southern Muslims, murder of political protestors, not running away from the enemy etc.Whether that cynic was justified in what he implied, I could not possibly say

You bloody hypocrite! Red shirt thug gangs in their "uniform" are fine to burn parts of the city as a political statement, but when a restrained group happen to wear green its "intolerable".

This is not UK or USA or Oz. If it against regs, then charges would be laid. Until then, speculate away, then throw in a few gratuitous slurs.

[OzMick]

Get over it? If it isn't an issue, why is it even reported. The army protesting the media in Thailand, is quite a serious precedent i would say.

A few members of the RTA are protesting one TV stations insults - expressing their personal views. If Prayuth as RTA commander, or an official RTA spokesman, told them to &lt;deleted&gt;, it might be serious, but it still only one station, not the hyperbole you come up with.

Why is it reported by ASTV's competitors? Get real.

[Thai at Heart]

Get over it? If it isn't an issue, why is it even reported. The army protesting the media in Thailand, is quite a serious precedent i would say.

A few members of the RTA are protesting one TV stations insults - expressing their personal views. If Prayuth as RTA commander, or an official RTA spokesman, told them to &lt;deleted&gt;, it might be serious, but it still only one station, not the hyperbole you come up with.

Why is it reported by ASTV's competitors? Get real.

We all know what astv is up to. Its trying to goad the army into a reaction about the temple. Seems it worked.

[thaicbr]

Although I am opposed to ASTV for a wide variety of reasons it would be completely hypocritical not to give my full and unreserved support now in the face of this harrassment by soldiers and the scarcely veiled threats they have made against the station.Let me spell it out.It is neither here nor there that some feelings were hurt.All soldiers who joined this protest should be disciplined because the army is meant to be non political.It does not matter that ASTV stands for all I see as negative in Thai politics.On this occasion I am entirely on its side

Can I ask if your feelings for Red TV are the same.

Ie negative in Thai politics?

Personally I think it would be better for Thailand and Thai people if they BOTH disappeared. Forever.

Along with Blue sky. All of the rabble rousing useless propaganda TV stations. Gone.

do you think that's a good idea?

sent from my Q6

Edited January 12, 2013 by thaicbr

[Thai at Heart]

Reading in the other paper, seems the army seniors and too impressed that this happened.

[rixalex]

To me, when i see an employee of a government institution, like a policeman or a soldier, dressed in uniform, it means that person is affectively "at work".

If say for example i am the victim of a crime and i see a police officer in the street, dressed in uniform, and i cry to him for assistance (putting aside for one moment the fact that in Thailand i am probably better off crying for assistance to a nearby somtam vendor) , i do not expect the policeman to reply with a, "sorry mate, i'm not working right now".

Any soldier or policeman is free to protest in my view, they don't lose the right of protest when they sign up, but they can not protest during work hours, no more than anyone else can. Protesting is something you have to do in your own private time.

And of course protesting should always be peaceful and free of threats or threatening behaviour.

[jayboy]

<flame snipped> Red shirt thug gangs in their "uniform" are fine to burn parts of the city as a political statement, but when a restrained group happen to wear green its "intolerable".

This is not UK or USA or Oz. If it against regs, then charges would be laid. <flame snipped>

There is a very big difference between actions of civilians and actions of the armed forces, not least because the latter are subject to military discipline.

I note you are unable to verify the position regarding the relevant Thai army regulations.Whether there are regulations similar to those applicable in most countries regarding soldiers' political activities in uniform remains to be clarified, but I assume that is the case.Whether the regulations would be enforced is more problematic given that for decades the army has been involved in massive corruption, political interference and diverse forms of criminality.

[jayboy]

Although I am opposed to ASTV for a wide variety of reasons it would be completely hypocritical not to give my full and unreserved support now in the face of this harrassment by soldiers and the scarcely veiled threats they have made against the station.Let me spell it out.It is neither here nor there that some feelings were hurt.All soldiers who joined this protest should be disciplined because the army is meant to be non political.It does not matter that ASTV stands for all I see as negative in Thai politics.On this occasion I am entirely on its side

Can I ask if your feelings for Red TV are the same.

Ie negative in Thai politics?

Personally I think it would be better for Thailand and Thai people if they BOTH disappeared. Forever.

Along with Blue sky. All of the rabble rousing useless propaganda TV stations. Gone.

do you think that's a good idea?

sent from my Q6

I think you completely misunderstand my point.Although I dislike the ASTV ideology I would not for a moment suggest it should be banned.Democracy includes the freedom of the media which means that often there will be outlets we disagree with.It also means from time to time we will be offended.

[OzMick]

<flame snipped> Red shirt thug gangs in their "uniform" are fine to burn parts of the city as a political statement, but when a restrained group happen to wear green its "intolerable".

This is not UK or USA or Oz. If it against regs, then charges would be laid. <flame snipped>

There is a very big difference between actions of civilians and actions of the armed forces, not least because the latter are subject to military discipline.

I note you are unable to verify the position regarding the relevant Thai army regulations.Whether there are regulations similar to those applicable in most countries regarding soldiers' political activities in uniform remains to be clarified, but I assume that is the case.Whether the regulations would be enforced is more problematic given that for decades the army has been involved in massive corruption, political interference and diverse forms of criminality.

Stop altering my posts. And you just can't help throwing in a few more slurs can you?

They are subject to military discipline, but are not being disciplined, which leads me to believe that such well-informed persons have not committed any offense. When you assume you make an ass of you, I admit I don't know but have valid grounds for my belief. But to you that's just corruption.

[bigbamboo]

join the army, hand in your rights as a citizen because you have become a mindless killing machine.

Why is it that the sight of a green uniform drives some people to vent their bile and bias? Not that long ago the same citizens were working their butt off in horrible conditions to help flood victims. Now that the floods have subsided they are vilified for holding a peaceful unarmed protest against insults from a pack of ultra-nationalist warmongers aimed at a leader they respect.

Strange how apologists for the army's abuses always refer to the flooding relief effort - as though their misdemeanours should be forgiven for doing their job.

Strange how the usual suspects once so protective of ASTV and the PAD ideas are now talking about a pack of ultra nationalist warmongers

Strange that there seems not the slightest conception that a gang of soldiers harrassing a TV station - with the threat of "further action" - may not be consistent with the army's role.(Try that act on in Beijing, Tokyo, Washington or London and the culprits would be peeling potatoes in an instant)

However I'm not here to make political points, simpply express my solidarity with ASTV.

'Harrassing a TV station'.

I wonder where they got that idea?

[DocN]

As much as I despise ASTV (and most of the rest of Thailands media outlets), it is called "freedom of speech".

If the general feels offended, he can always address ASTV directly!

Some soldiers feeling offended on his behalf, threatening the media with "further actions"? &lt;deleted&gt;?

...oh...and...didn't we just have a discussion about what soldiers are to do in their past -time? In uniform? Not attending rallies?

Pitak Siam ring a bell, anyone?

Oh and by the way: if they have nothing better to do, than this BS...

One more thing: being a "woman on her period" is an INSULT??? A sexist remark by ASTV, and an even more sexist reaction by the army...why am I not surprised!

If you sufficient Thai language skills, walk out on to the street and tell the first adult Thai male that you encounter that he is a woman on her period. Let us know where to send flowers.

My Thai teacher told me the worst insult I could use, guaranteed to provoke a fight. It translates loosely to "you look like my wife".

Yeah...and? That doesn't make it sexist?

Of course it's sexist, like Thai culture. It's also an INSULT which is what you denied. Did you try it on a Thai?

No, i didn't!

I don't have to say these things, because I am a civilized man and mostly refrain from using insults on anybody!

Still: why didn't the general complain to ASTV by himself, if he wasn't offended?

Maybe,, because he might be intelligent enough, to know, that ASTV is a bunch of wing- nuts and better to be ignored.

Why some soldiers are offended on his behalf and can actually threaten a media outlet ...is absolutely beyond me!

[OzMick]

To me, when i see an employee of a government institution, like a policeman or a soldier, dressed in uniform, it means that person is affectively "at work".

If say for example i am the victim of a crime and i see a police officer in the street, dressed in uniform, and i cry to him for assistance (putting aside for one moment the fact that in Thailand i am probably better off crying for assistance to a nearby somtam vendor) , i do not expect the policeman to reply with a, "sorry mate, i'm not working right now".

Any soldier or policeman is free to protest in my view, they don't lose the right of protest when they sign up, but they can not protest during work hours, no more than anyone else can. Protesting is something you have to do in your own private time.

And of course protesting should always be peaceful and free of threats or threatening behaviour.

Police in uniform are considered to be on duty and MUST render assistance when asked (NSW regs anyway). Soldiers are allowed to wear uniform off duty, although this is much more difficult to define as are required to be available 24/7.

Would you be any less offended if they wore cam pants and green T-shirts (non-uniform) with RTA front and back? Would the protest be as clearly defined if they were in mufti?

[OzMick]

If you sufficient Thai language skills, walk out on to the street and tell the first adult Thai male that you encounter that he is a woman on her period. Let us know where to send flowers.

My Thai teacher told me the worst insult I could use, guaranteed to provoke a fight. It translates loosely to "you look like my wife".

Yeah...and? That doesn't make it sexist?

Of course it's sexist, like Thai culture. It's also an INSULT which is what you denied. Did you try it on a Thai?

No, i didn't!

I don't have to say these things, because I am a civilized man and mostly refrain from using insults on anybody!

Still: why didn't the general complain to ASTV by himself, if he wasn't offended?

Maybe,, because he might be intelligent enough, to know, that ASTV is a bunch of wing- nuts and better to be ignored.

Why some soldiers are offended on his behalf and can actually threaten a media outlet ...is absolutely beyond me!

"One more thing: being a "woman on her period" is an INSULT???" Seems we now agree it is, a pity you didn't choose to find out the hard way.

Prayuth cannot make statements without them being considered the view of the RTA. Others also offended can as individuals.

These are long-term disciplined soldiers, not red shirt thugs. Why do you see peaceful protest as a threat? where are their armed guards, molotov cocktails, buckets of blood?

[rixalex]

To me, when i see an employee of a government institution, like a policeman or a soldier, dressed in uniform, it means that person is affectively "at work".

If say for example i am the victim of a crime and i see a police officer in the street, dressed in uniform, and i cry to him for assistance (putting aside for one moment the fact that in Thailand i am probably better off crying for assistance to a nearby somtam vendor) , i do not expect the policeman to reply with a, "sorry mate, i'm not working right now".

Any soldier or policeman is free to protest in my view, they don't lose the right of protest when they sign up, but they can not protest during work hours, no more than anyone else can. Protesting is something you have to do in your own private time.

And of course protesting should always be peaceful and free of threats or threatening behaviour.

Police in uniform are considered to be on duty and MUST render assistance when asked (NSW regs anyway). Soldiers are allowed to wear uniform off duty, although this is much more difficult to define as are required to be available 24/7.

Would you be any less offended if they wore cam pants and green T-shirts (non-uniform) with RTA front and back? Would the protest be as clearly defined if they were in mufti?

Not so much a case of finding it offensive, more like a case of finding it inappropriate. I think the best attire for policemen or soldiers wishing to protest would be civilian clothes. That way, it is very clear that they are neither working at that time, nor are they there representing or speaking for the entire force. They are there as individuals.

Edited January 12, 2013 by rixalex

[thaicbr]

Although I am opposed to ASTV for a wide variety of reasons it would be completely hypocritical not to give my full and unreserved support now in the face of this harrassment by soldiers and the scarcely veiled threats they have made against the station.Let me spell it out.It is neither here nor there that some feelings were hurt.All soldiers who joined this protest should be disciplined because the army is meant to be non political.It does not matter that ASTV stands for all I see as negative in Thai politics.On this occasion I am entirely on its side

Can I ask if your feelings for Red TV are the same.

Ie negative in Thai politics?

Personally I think it would be better for Thailand and Thai people if they BOTH disappeared. Forever.

Along with Blue sky. All of the rabble rousing useless propaganda TV stations. Gone.

do you think that's a good idea?

sent from my Q6

I think you completely misunderstand my point.Although I dislike the ASTV ideology I would not for a moment suggest it should be banned.Democracy includes the freedom of the media which means that often there will be outlets we disagree with.It also means from time to time we will be offended.

True. But freedom of the media comes with its own rules. Which most political media here seem to ignore. Because these stations are NOT mainstream media they are political stations. Pure and simple tools for their owners to state their view and only their view. Personally I still think they are wrong and should be disbanded for the trouble makers they are. Or at least made to be accountable for their actions. As channel 3 was with their political! Soup opera:blink:

Again what about Red TV idealogy?

sent from my Q6

[jayboy]

Although I am opposed to ASTV for a wide variety of reasons it would be completely hypocritical not to give my full and unreserved support now in the face of this harrassment by soldiers and the scarcely veiled threats they have made against the station.Let me spell it out.It is neither here nor there that some feelings were hurt.All soldiers who joined this protest should be disciplined because the army is meant to be non political.It does not matter that ASTV stands for all I see as negative in Thai politics.On this occasion I am entirely on its side

Can I ask if your feelings for Red TV are the same.

Ie negative in Thai politics?

Personally I think it would be better for Thailand and Thai people if they BOTH disappeared. Forever.

Along with Blue sky. All of the rabble rousing useless propaganda TV stations. Gone.

do you think that's a good idea?

sent from my Q6

I think you completely misunderstand my point.Although I dislike the ASTV ideology I would not for a moment suggest it should be banned.Democracy includes the freedom of the media which means that often there will be outlets we disagree with.It also means from time to time we will be offended.

True. But freedom of the media comes with its own rules. Which most political media here seem to ignore. Because these stations are NOT mainstream media they are political stations. Pure and simple tools for their owners to state their view and only their view. Personally I still think they are wrong and should be disbanded for the trouble makers they are. Or at least made to be accountable for their actions. As channel 3 was with their political! Soup opera:blink:

Again what about Red TV idealogy?

sent from my Q6

I agree that much broadcating in Thailand is not very responsible but I do believe it's better to show tolerance.We haven't even mentioned the TV and media interests controlled by the Thai armed forces, hugely anachronistic but I wouldn't arbitrarily seek to close them down though there's a good case for divesting ownership - perhaps to sympathetic corporate interests.There is a case of course for regulation but the problem in Thailand is that it's difficult to find genuinely independent regulators.Ownership is another issue, not just related to the army TV stations, but it's easier to set out the problem than come up with answers.

[DocN]

"One more thing: being a "woman on her period" is an INSULT???" Seems we now agree it is, a pity you didn't choose to find out the hard way.

Prayuth cannot make statements without them being considered the view of the RTA. Others also offended can as individuals.

These are long-term disciplined soldiers, not red shirt thugs. Why do you see peaceful protest as a threat? where are their armed guards, molotov cocktails, buckets of blood?"

"If the ASTV newspaper does not stop using verbal abuse, we will consider further action."

How is that not a threat?

[TomTao]

I was a member of the Australian Defence Force, if I had decided to protest because of what a media outlet said about a senior officer I would have faced seious disciplinary action and dismissal, it not the job of any service personnel to interfere with freedom of speech or the democratic process, unless called upon by the government of the day to maintain freedom of speech and/or the democratic process.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

[Roadman]

My my... Army protesting at a Yellow shirt centre. But according to the Red symphasiers on here the Army, Yellows, PAD and Dems are all in cohourts with each other.

[Thait Spot]

They called Prayuth "a woman on her period".

Seriously, I think the small demonstration in support of their boss was fine & to be expected.

Good lads.

Or even, perhaps, a small menstruation in support of their boss.

Sondhi's clearly the one who's getting all pre-menstrual because the army won't overthrow the government or start a war.

Given his 2 yellow boys are still in custody, he should keep his head down

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Thaivisa Connect App

[blaze]

Roadman-

What exactly is your point? There are certain principles that are involved here- the political stances of the main actors are of no relevance- nor is who they are alligned with (actually you would be more correct if you had made that statement two years ago- few even among the progovernment 'side' see it so simply anymore- nor do those who support either the Dems or the PAD- but that's for a different thread. )- -

This thread is about uniformed soldiers protesting a licensed media outlet. Is that appropriate or is it not?

One shouldn't have to contextualize that principle along color lines. It has NOTHING to do with the editorial bias of ASTV- it has NOTHING to do with the (in my opinion commendable) way that the army has agreed to respect the IJC ruling- it has nothing to do with the fires at Ratchaprasong- nothing to do with anything EXCEPT the propriety of soldiers in uniform protesting a media outlet.

My sincere appreciation for those who have contributed to this thread and put principles above personal political bias.

Edited January 12, 2013 by blaze

[Stradavarius37]

The usual suspects, spouting the usual blah blah blah. When you guys get tired of going around in circles and come up with some original points, wake me up.

[noitom]

Oh Boy! These Thais! The army threatening "further action" if. Boy oh boy. You know what that means. These Thais , they are something else. The army is ready to rock and roll.

[LomSak27]

Soldiers shouldn't get dragged into this type of petty rubbish

Probably but they, the BIB, and other paramilitary groups have ALWAYS been used in just this manner. Its a cultural thing.

[OzMick]

Oh Boy! These Thais! The army threatening "further action" if. Boy oh boy. You know what that means. These Thais , they are something else. The army is ready to rock and roll.

Actually it is not "the army" it is a group of senior non-commissioned officers, soldiers with many years of service, protesting at a low insult at their leader, which I assume they believe reflects back on them and their service.

What it means is open to conjecture. And when the army is ready to rock and roll, they arrive in much larger numbers, leave their best cam uniforms in the locker and bring their weapons - none of which appears to be happening.

As I said before, repeating that insult to a Thai adult male most likely would result in violence. It is notable here that it has not.

Edited January 12, 2013 by OzMick

[OzMick]

I was a member of the Australian Defence Force, if I had decided to protest because of what a media outlet said about a senior officer I would have faced seious disciplinary action and dismissal, it not the job of any service personnel to interfere with freedom of speech or the democratic process, unless called upon by the government of the day to maintain freedom of speech and/or the democratic process.

Sent from my GT-N7100 using Thaivisa Connect Thailand mobile app

1/ this is not about Australia or RAA regulations

2/ I can think of several occasions where Oz Army and Navy blokes sorted out problems unofficially and with a much higher level of violence.

3/ No Oz media outlet would insult a senior military officer in such a fashion.

[Baerboxer]

join the army, hand in your rights as a citizen because you have become a mindless killing machine.

Why is it that the sight of a green uniform drives some people to vent their bile and bias? Not that long ago the same citizens were working their butt off in horrible conditions to help flood victims. Now that the floods have subsided they are vilified for holding a peaceful unarmed protest against insults from a pack of ultra-nationalist warmongers aimed at a leader they respect.

Strange how apologists for the army's abuses always refer to the flooding relief effort - as though their misdemeanours should be forgiven for doing their job.

Strange how the usual suspects once so protective of ASTV and the PAD ideas are now talking about a pack of ultra nationalist warmongers

Strange that there seems not the slightest conception that a gang of soldiers harrassing a TV station - with the threat of "further action" - may not be consistent with the army's role.(Try that act on in Beijing, Tokyo, Washington or London and the culprits would be peeling potatoes in an instant)

However I'm not here to make political points, simpply express my solidarity with ASTV.

I don't necessarily disagree with your sentiments, but sorting the flood was not the army's job. They took control because the inept and corrupt civilian authorities responsible were too busy scamming to do their job. I saw some of the fantastic work the soldiers did first hand, and many people would have suffered a lot more without them.

But, that is no excuse for behaving like this small group did. I don't think they did this out of their own initiative.

[Baerboxer]

The usual suspects, spouting the usual blah blah blah. When you guys get tired of going around in circles and come up with some original points, wake me up.

Dream on !