Legalizing The Last Will

[Hans Lankari]

Done the search but nothing that gives any firm answers.

What kind of last will have you guys done? Does it need to be in thai to be water-proof after my earthly excursion?

Can I write it myself in english and legalize it in my embassy OR ministry of foreign affairs in BKK?

Is there any discussion on this matter here on forum? (My search of "will" gives me just about everything written in future tense, "inheritance" or "heir" nothing that has anything to do with last will, etc.)

Yes, I can always talk to a lawyer but I prefer always to do my home-work and inform myself as much as possibile in advance. This makes me feel more comfortable with these kind of things and also saves a lot of time of my lawyer.

[Mighty Mouse]

If your will is uncomplicated, your best bet is to buy a will kit and follow the instructions.

[OldAsiaHand]

The threshold issue is what property you are trying to pass by will and where it is located. As a practical matter, cash and securities can be dealt with easily enough through appropriate instructions to their custodians. The hard one is real property. If it is located here, you need to consult a qualified Thai lawyer as to the local requirements for a valid will but, if the real property is located in some country abroad, then you need to look to their requirements for validity. If you are concerned about passing title to real property located in, say, the UK, you might as well construct a valid UK will to start with (and save your heirs the enormous headache of trying to admit a Thai will to probate in the UK and prove up its validity twice -- once under Thai law and then again under UK law).

Where you happen to be when you die is beside the point to detrmining the validity of a will. What really matters is the jurisdiction in which the property to be passed is located. Hope that helps.

[Dragonman]

Done the search but nothing that gives any firm answers.

What kind of last will have you guys done? Does it need to be in thai to be water-proof after my earthly excursion?

Can I write it myself in english and legalize it in my embassy OR ministry of foreign affairs in BKK?

Is there any discussion on this matter here on forum? (My search of "will" gives me just about everything written in future tense, "inheritance" or "heir" nothing that has anything to do with last will, etc.)

Yes, I can always talk to a lawyer but I prefer always to do my home-work and inform myself as much as possibile in advance. This makes me feel more comfortable with these kind of things and also saves a lot of time of my lawyer.

I would not advise a foreigner to draw up a will in Thailand. Thai laws on being deemed intestate by error could mean huge delays or even different people than your direct heir being given awards. If you, or someone you trust, are fluent in thai you may draw up a Public Will (forms can be obtained from local amphur). In Court thai is the only language, so you will have to nominate a "personal representative" to act on your behalf. The Executor in Thailand is appointed by the Court, but under normal circumstances this will be your personal representative.

Wills legally drawn up in your own country may be presented to Court if translated into thai and officially certified by MFA. However any errors and the thai translation has precedence. If you don't understand thai, I would get the final draft re-translated into english before signing.Believe it or not there are some "lawyers" who cannot be trusted

[Hans Lankari]

I intend to write the will concerning all my property here in Thailand: money in bank, some vehicles and a condo. Nothing outside of Thailand in this will.

Now, my idea was to do as it goes in some European countries; to write a will myself where I clearly state who inherits and what, attach the relative documentation (chanoot etc.) to it, get it witnessed by a lawyer/solicitor, get it translated in thai and legalize the whole thing in MFA in BKK.

Can someone of you tell me if for some reason this will not have any value after my death? Surely it must be of some importance since there should be no doubt that I didn't write it and I didn't want everything be dealt according to it.

Even thai court should not be something that works then AGAINST this very detailed and clear will.

Or is just easier to get lawyer and have a beer on the beach while he makes this in thai way?

[Dragonman]

I intend to write the will concerning all my property here in Thailand: money in bank, some vehicles and a condo. Nothing outside of Thailand in this will.

Now, my idea was to do as it goes in some European countries; to write a will myself where I clearly state who inherits and what, attach the relative documentation (chanoot etc.) to it, get it witnessed by a lawyer/solicitor, get it translated in thai and legalize the whole thing in MFA in BKK.

Can someone of you tell me if for some reason this will not have any value after my death? Surely it must be of some importance since there should be no doubt that I didn't write it and I didn't want everything be dealt according to it.

Even thai court should not be something that works then AGAINST this very detailed and clear will.

Or is just easier to get lawyer and have a beer on the beach while he makes this in thai way?

It will be legal, as even holographic wills are legal in Thailand (scribbled on a piece of paper and not witnessed), it's just safer to go to someone who understands thai law with regards to inheritance. It is not as simple as going to probate as in most countries. I have known of cases going on for 18 months due to one inaccuracy in drafting For a few thousand baht, not worth the trouble. Have a beer

[dutch]

The cicvil and commercial code.

Book VI,title III Wills.

Chapter 1 section 1646; any person may in contemplation of death,make a declaration of intention by will concerning disposyions as to his property or other matters which shall take effect according to law after death.

Chapter 1 section 1648; A will must be made according to the forms prescribed in Chapter II

Chapter II section 1655; A will may be made in ANY one of the forms prescribed in this Chapter

Chapter II section 1656; A will may be made in the following form, that is to say,it must be made in writing,dated at the time of the making of the will and signed by the testator before at least two witnesses present at the same time who shall then and there sign their names certifyinf the signature of the testator.No erase,addition or other alteration in such will is valid unless made in the same form as prescribed by this section.

I did it as mentioned above

[Dragonman]

The cicvil and commercial code.

Book VI,title III Wills.

Chapter 1 section 1646; any person may in contemplation of death,make a declaration of intention by will concerning disposyions as to his property or other matters which shall take effect according to law after death.

Chapter 1 section 1648; A will must be made according to the forms prescribed in Chapter II

Chapter II section 1655; A will may be made in ANY one of the forms prescribed in this Chapter

Chapter II section 1656; A will may be made in the following form, that is to say,it must be made in writing,dated at the time of the making of the will and signed by the testator before at least two witnesses present at the same time who shall then and there sign their names certifyinf the signature of the testator.No erase,addition or other alteration in such will is valid unless made in the same form as prescribed by this section.

I did it as mentioned above

Was it all done in thai, or did you get a certified translation?

[dutch]

I got this lawbook from a lawyersoffice and had it copied.

The book is bi-lingual Thai- English.

I needed reliable info after the passing away of my wife last year.

Nice if people tell you something but I like to see it in (understandable) writing.

[tango]

I am advised that the accepted method is to write it in your own hand as noted in this forum:

'A will may be made in the following form, that is to say,it must be made in writing,dated at the time of the making of the will and signed by the testator before at least two witnesses present at the same time who shall then and there sign their names certifyinf the signature of the testator.No erase,addition or other alteration in such will is valid unless made in the same form as prescribed by this section.'

[Attach a translation in Thai by a government-registered translator with a copy of his or her authority and photo - all duly signed.]

No typewritten or word processors are apparently advised, as these the court might contend could be tampered with, and thus the Thai lawyer may end up with your assets.

Possibilities:

To lessen the legalities, I would register all vehicles in my Thai partner's name [thus, no contest]. This acts too as a forebearer and safeguard; for if the vehicles are sold inappropriately, then one can assume it best not to leave any other valuables to them.

You mentioned that you as a foreigner own property(Chanote), hmmm... how can that be? Surely the property is in your Thai partner's name. If so, no need for a Thai will regarding land deeds as it is theirs already. Your Thai possessions may legally include the house on the land; in which case the house and all furniture should be beqeauthed to whomever you designate.

If you have pension or bank deposits from your home country (Norway?) then you will need a Norweigian will to ensure your Thai partner receives said dispersements.

Be awfully careful whom you inform about provisions of your will. I would advise telling any Thai benefactors that your will is an ongoing process, not yet complete for whatever problem, even if it is complete. Obviously the two witnesses[above] should therefore be unknown to your beneficiaries.

If you must tell your beneficiaries about provisions of your will, then ensure they are informed that they get nothing of your out-of-country monies were you to die un-naturall. This may prevent them or any of their relatives or 'friends' who need ready cash from obtaining it too readily by hastening your demise from this world.

In short, to avoid 3rd parties making off with your assets why not register as much as practical to your Thai partner while you are alive.

If you want further assurances place the a portion of the capital you would pay for the land and/ or house/ vehicle in a separate hidden bank and bank account; and have your partner take out loans/ mortgages in their name for which you pay monthly. If you were to die unexpectedly they understand that they too stand to lose. These assurances will cost you the added percentages of a loan or mortgage, but the added cost may be worth it as a sort of life assurance. If you pass away naturally; or if un-naturallybut not by the hand of your intended beneficiaries, your loyal and trustworthy lawyer will hopefully ensure the monies are immediately forthcoming to pay off the land-house-vehicle loans of your beloved. BTW, some banks abscond with the property after only two months of missed payments.

Inevitably whatever route you choose, it involves a lot of 'cloak-and-dagger' work to cover the loose ends...good luck.

[Hans Lankari]

You mentioned that you as a foreigner own property(Chanote), hmmm... how can that be? Surely the property is in your Thai partner's name.

I don't know if you have missed something very important but yes, as a foreigner I AM entitled to own property: a condominium unit. And it IS my name printed (in thai) on the back of the chanoot.

So this is why I am writing a will. Mostly all the rest of my ownings (here in Thailand) is nothing much of value.

And naturally everything outside of Thailand will be another story then. Already thought of that.

BTW: No, never been to Norway. Nationality finnish, home-country; Italy.

[Hans Lankari]

Bringing this topic alive again and hoping someone can comment with some firm info...

Done the writing and all the the paper-work attached; headed to MoFA for legalization/registration: "No, cannot. Mr. you must go to amphoo".

Went to my amphoo (district office) and there about 15 officers eye-balled the document (yes, I showed them both; the thai and english version so they understood what it was about) and then the mama-san of the place asked if I should go to MoFA...

No, they couldn't tell me where the registration should be done and yes; MoFA is 100% sure I have to do it at amphoo.

Any ideas anyone?

(A lawyer told me amphoo is the place but he wants 15 000 out of it. And since I am this far already I would very much like to finish this whole thing myself. Even if it was only 1000 baht to the lawyer. After all it is only this last step away from finishing this. BTW: The same lawyer also told that it is not even necessary to register it in amphoo. "Up to you..." But I would feel more comfortable doing it all the way to the end.)

[JSixpack]

Hans, please post what you find out.

Where is the MoFA exactly?

[Hans Lankari]

Hans, please post what you find out.

Where is the MoFA exactly?

My "finding-outs" are still at the same level as previously but I have a noble intention to sort this out next week...

Will keep you all informed as soon as I have some news.

Ministry of Foreign Affairs:

http://www.mfa.go.th/web/143.php

[billd766]

I got this lawbook from a lawyers office and had it copied.

The book is bi-lingual Thai- English.

I needed reliable info after the passing away of my wife last year.

Nice if people tell you something but I like to see it in (understandable) writing.

Hi Dutch

I am trying to get hold of a copy of this book and DK bookshops in BKK dont seem to be able to find it anywhere. Do you know if it has an ISBN number?

Cheers

Bill

[Dragonman]

Bringing this topic alive again and hoping someone can comment with some firm info...

Done the writing and all the the paper-work attached; headed to MoFA for legalization/registration: "No, cannot. Mr. you must go to amphoo".

Went to my amphoo (district office) and there about 15 officers eye-balled the document (yes, I showed them both; the thai and english version so they understood what it was about) and then the mama-san of the place asked if I should go to MoFA...

No, they couldn't tell me where the registration should be done and yes; MoFA is 100% sure I have to do it at amphoo.

Any ideas anyone?

(A lawyer told me amphoo is the place but he wants 15 000 out of it. And since I am this far already I would very much like to finish this whole thing myself. Even if it was only 1000 baht to the lawyer. After all it is only this last step away from finishing this. BTW: The same lawyer also told that it is not even necessary to register it in amphoo. "Up to you..." But I would feel more comfortable doing it all the way to the end.)

The only thing that needs doing is an official translation (in one of the numerous offices in Bangkok), and certification by the MFA in Bangkok. This certification is only a confirmation of translation similar to those you get when you get married. The Amphur does not need to get involved unless you are making a "public will", ( only in thai) which you complete and certify in front of officers there. There is no registration!

It would probably be easier to get the translation company to do it all for you

[Hans Lankari]

The only thing that needs doing is an official translation (in one of the numerous offices in Bangkok), and certification by the MFA in Bangkok. This certification is only a confirmation of translation similar to those you get when you get married. The Amphur does not need to get involved unless you are making a "public will", ( only in thai) which you complete and certify in front of officers there. There is no registration!

It would probably be easier to get the translation company to do it all for you

Yes, I did brought a stamped translation to MoFA:

MoFA told me that they do not legalize this translation since they only legalize the documents they are familiar with; i.e. marriage certificate, birth certificate, id-card, house registration, etc etc. NO other documentation.

And yes; I explained (and they uderstood also:-) that I only ask them to act for the correctness of the translation; nothing about the contents itself.

They specificaly told that only authority that could have anything to do with this is district office (amphoo) IF I want it registered.

[Dragonman]

The only thing that needs doing is an official translation (in one of the numerous offices in Bangkok), and certification by the MFA in Bangkok. This certification is only a confirmation of translation similar to those you get when you get married. The Amphur does not need to get involved unless you are making a "public will", ( only in thai) which you complete and certify in front of officers there. There is no registration!

It would probably be easier to get the translation company to do it all for you

Yes, I did brought a stamped translation to MoFA:

MoFA told me that they do not legalize this translation since they only legalize the documents they are familiar with; i.e. marriage certificate, birth certificate, id-card, house registration, etc etc. NO other documentation.

And yes; I explained (and they uderstood also:-) that I only ask them to act for the correctness of the translation; nothing about the contents itself.

They specificaly told that only authority that could have anything to do with this is district office (amphoo) IF I want it registered.

If they are not competent enough to deal with other translations they have a list of recognised and acceptable translators in Bangkok who are cerified by MFA. You may wish to e-mail to see if you get a sensible answer. Just google mfa and go to legalisation division, or pick a photograph of someone you think will give you a sensible answer

[Hans Lankari]

If they are not competent enough to deal with other translations they have a list of recognised and acceptable translators in Bangkok who are cerified by MFA. You may wish to e-mail to see if you get a sensible answer. Just google mfa and go to legalisation division, or pick a photograph of someone you think will give you a sensible answer

Now an interesting subject arose:

A couple of months ago I investigated this actual matter; WHO is a registered or "official" translator and this was the answer from MoFA:

Translation in Thailand

Case 1 - a document from a foreign country wanting to be used in Thailand. Must take the document to the respective embassy in Thailand with the Thai version for notarization by the embassy official. Then take the original and the notarized Thai version to be certified at the Legalization Division. After that, the document can become legally acceptable.

Case 2 - a Thai document from Thailand wanting to be used in English language or to be used in another country. Must take the document (in Thai) and the translation to the Legalization Division (the only office in Thailand that is authorized to do this) to be certified.

Translation to/from a foreign country can be done by anyone, as long as the owner of the document is liable for the content of the translation. Therefore, there is NO such thing as an official translation

Legalization Division , 3rd floor

Department of Consular Affairs

Ministry of Foreign Affairs

123 Chaeng Watthana Road

Bangkok 10210

Tel : 0-2575-1056-59 Fax : 0-2575-1054

Service hours : 08.30 - 14.30 hrs. (Closed on Saturday - Sunday and Public Holidays)

Email : [email protected]

Now, from this my conclusio was that an "official" translator is anyone who decides to be so. Am I wrong?

[Dragonman]

If they are not competent enough to deal with other translations they have a list of recognised and acceptable translators in Bangkok who are cerified by MFA. You may wish to e-mail to see if you get a sensible answer. Just google mfa and go to legalisation division, or pick a photograph of someone you think will give you a sensible answer

Now an interesting subject arose:

A couple of months ago I investigated this actual matter; WHO is a registered or "official" translator and this was the answer from MoFA:

Translation in Thailand

Case 1 - a document from a foreign country wanting to be used in Thailand. Must take the document to the respective embassy in Thailand with the Thai version for notarization by the embassy official. Then take the original and the notarized Thai version to be certified at the Legalization Division. After that, the document can become legally acceptable.

Case 2 - a Thai document from Thailand wanting to be used in English language or to be used in another country. Must take the document (in Thai) and the translation to the Legalization Division (the only office in Thailand that is authorized to do this) to be certified.

Translation to/from a foreign country can be done by anyone, as long as the owner of the document is liable for the content of the translation. Therefore, there is NO such thing as an official translation

Legalization Division , 3rd floor

Department of Consular Affairs

Ministry of Foreign Affairs

123 Chaeng Watthana Road

Bangkok 10210

Tel : 0-2575-1056-59 Fax : 0-2575-1054

Service hours : 08.30 - 14.30 hrs. (Closed on Saturday - Sunday and Public Holidays)

Email : [email protected]

Now, from this my conclusio was that an "official" translator is anyone who decides to be so. Am I wrong?

Yes, this is true due to Thailand not having Public Notary, but insisting on notarisation from foreign countries. Really in practice the MFA will certify that the translator is acceptable. Some embassies don't even bother with MFA certification. The Translation Company's word is good enough.

None of my personal Legal Documents are certified by MFA and have never been queried by any Court or Government Department in the UK.