RIP Wayne Guest

[mccw]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/britains-corporate-stars-face-pension-time-bomb-8349193.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-85707/Fears-pensions-timebomb.html

http://m.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/nov/12/council-pension-schemes-timebomb-report

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2129033/The-54bn-pensions-ticking-time-bomb-drive-council-tax.html

Just a few of many articles on this subject.

Fundamentaly both state and most private pensions are Not self funding investments. They require greater taxes or new members paying for the old. They keep the ball roling by raising retirement ages and cutting benefits.

At the state level. Although contributions have been made through NI or Social Security, its true that the populations taxes and government borrowing are paying for today's state pensions at the expense of future generations. There for it is just another benefit / welfare program.

Anyone thinking of "investing" in a pension now I would strongly urg not to bother because by the time its time to draw on it the Ponzi may well of collapsed already or the goal posts moved ie less money returned and/or only able to claim it when much older than expected. There is the value of money / inflation question aswell; what with all the

Money printing to pay for all the unfunded liabilities of today and tomorrow as it is.

Interested to hear your thoughts on what this and what the alternatives are.

Cheers

[midas]

I always remember seeing this back in 2010 and it has stuck in my mind since. I know not everyone likes Glenn Beck and sometimes he is over the top but if you find his larking about annoying just fast forward to 5 min and listen to his presentation about the pension scheme of California firemen as an example.

http://video.foxnews...ension-pyramid/

Edited January 22, 2013 by midas

[Rancid]

Yes many countries pensions are unfunded and even massive black holes, depends whether you trust your government. Being self funded would be a better option but risks also exist depending on how you set it all up, the usual stock market collapses, bank runs, new currency issues paying a pecent on the dollar, real estate collapse, all really positive and uplifting stuff. No easy answers.

[chiangmaikelly]

Is this topic about pensions in a particular country? And what is the point of discussing it on Thai Visa?

[mccw]

From Japan

Reported by RT

""The elderly should be allowed to finish their days without artificially sustaining their lives, says Japans finance minister. The social security system is being crippled by support for people over 60, already constituting a third of the nation.

Well known in Japan for his harsh mode of speech, Deputy PM and the head of the Finance Ministry Taro Aso told at the National Council on Social Security Reforms that the Japanese government pays for the meaningless enforced prolongation of lives of those whose days are numbered.

Heaven forbid if you are forced to live on when you want to die, he said. You cannot sleep well when you think its all paid for by the government.""

[chiangmaikelly]

From Japan

Reported by RT

""The elderly should be allowed to finish their days without artificially sustaining their lives, says Japans finance minister. The social security system is being crippled by support for people over 60, already constituting a third of the nation.

Well known in Japan for his harsh mode of speech, Deputy PM and the head of the Finance Ministry Taro Aso told at the National Council on Social Security Reforms that the Japanese government pays for the meaningless enforced prolongation of lives of those whose days are numbered.

Heaven forbid if you are forced to live on when you want to die, he said. You cannot sleep well when you think its all paid for by the government.""

So the topic is about pensions from Japan?

[mccw]

It's worth thinking about all this since the future of people retirement savings in Falang land where ever it might be are most likely just a part of this Ponzi. If we want to live in Thailand, or anywhere else for that matter, then what is the most sustainable, stable way we can invest or work to afford it?

As we've seen most western currency has dropped by around 30% sinse the financial crises and inflation in Thailand and else where is on the rise.

I would suggest thinking about ways to bring in some local currency.

Or perhapse many will just have to move on to cheaper locations. Cambodia. Africa eventually?

What do you do about medical care?

[chiangmaikelly]

It's worth thinking about all this since the future of people retirement savings in Falang land where ever it might be are most likely just a part of this Ponzi. If we want to live in Thailand, or anywhere else for that matter, then what is the most sustainable, stable way we can invest or work to afford it?

As we've seen most western currency has dropped by around 30% sinse the financial crises and inflation in Thailand and else where is on the rise.

I would suggest thinking about ways to bring in some local currency.

Or perhapse many will just have to move on to cheaper locations. Cambodia. Africa eventually?

What do you do about medical care?

Pensions and currency are specific to countries. It is useless to discuss them as a group. Some countries have high inflation and some countries have low inflation. Some countries have many different kinds of pensions. There are 338 different private pension plans just in the 500 companies listed in S&P's with assets of $132 trillion dollars.

[jpinx]

It's all smoke and mirrors. No pension scheme is truly self-funding - I wait to be proved wrong.

For the benefit of CMK - who seems to have forgotten the thread topic is at the top of the screen - I am referring to all pensions in all countries......

Edited January 22, 2013 by jpinx

[chiangmaikelly]

It's all smoke and mirrors. No pension scheme is truly self-funding - I wait to be proved wrong.

For the benefit of CMK - who seems to have forgotten the thread topic is at the top of the screen - I am referring to all pensions in all countries......

There are 338 companies with private pensions out of 500 in the S&P's listing. 18 are fully funded. So you are wrong. 18 are fully funded. For sure not a ponzi scheme. That is what fully funded means.

http://www.nytimes.c...anies.html?_r=0

Edited January 22, 2013 by chiangmaikelly

[jpinx]

I'll not argue the semantics of what a ponzi scheme is, but "fully funded" is a very loaded claim.

It appears from the report that those 18 schemes currently have assets greater than their obligations *today* -- but a pension scheme has to be funded into the future for as long as the last member lives.

From the same article --

<Determining whether pension funds have adequate funding is, to some extent, a work of art. Companies estimate what they will owe in the future, and then discount that number based on how long it will be until they have to pay it and the interest rate at which their pension-plan investments could grow. The discount rate used can have a significant effect.>

I stand by what I said -- it's all smoke and mirrors

I just read a bit more - it gets better --

<Next year, pension funds will appear to be better funded, even if they are not. Congress voted this year to allow funds to discount their obligations using a 15-year average of bond yields, meaning they can use a higher rate and so report lower obligations.>

So the "apparent" level of funding is manipulated according to politics ?

Edited January 22, 2013 by jpinx

[chiangmaikelly]

I'll not argue the semantics of what a ponzi scheme is, but "fully funded" is a very loaded claim.

It appears from the report that those 18 schemes currently have assets greater than their obligations *today* -- but a pension scheme has to be funded into the future for as long as the last member lives.

From the same article --

<Determining whether pension funds have adequate funding is, to some extent, a work of art. Companies estimate what they will owe in the future, and then discount that number based on how long it will be until they have to pay it and the interest rate at which their pension-plan investments could grow. The discount rate used can have a significant effect.>

I stand by what I said -- it's all smoke and mirrors

What you said is wrong. I gave you 18 pension funds that are fully funded today. Who can say anything about tomorrow? A bomb may blow up Fort Knox. You said no pension system is truly self funding. You are wrong. I gave you 18 examples. You did not say forever. Nothing lasts forever. Sorry. Today you are wrong. In 100 years you may be right. Who knows. Admit defeat. Today you are wrong.

Edited January 22, 2013 by chiangmaikelly

[jpinx]

There is no absolute right and wrong Read the article with an open mind and you will see that they talk about pension scheme funding as being something that can and will change according to performance and political shennanigans. The whole point of claiming a pension fund is "fully funded" is to claim that every member will be paid in full according to his contract until the end of that contract (usually his/her death). Fully funded today means able to pay all their obligations in the future.

Quote (again) <....Companies estimate what they will owe in the future.....>

[midas]

I'll not argue the semantics of what a ponzi scheme is, but "fully funded" is a very loaded claim.

It appears from the report that those 18 schemes currently have assets greater than their obligations *today* -- but a pension scheme has to be funded into the future for as long as the last member lives.

From the same article --

<Determining whether pension funds have adequate funding is, to some extent, a work of art. Companies estimate what they will owe in the future, and then discount that number based on how long it will be until they have to pay it and the interest rate at which their pension-plan investments could grow. The discount rate used can have a significant effect.>

I stand by what I said -- it's all smoke and mirrors

What you said is wrong. I gave you 18 pension funds that are fully funded today. Who can say anything about tomorrow? A bomb may blow up Fort Knox. You said no pension system is truly self funding. You are wrong. I gave you 18 examples. You did not say forever. Nothing lasts forever. Sorry. Today you are wrong. In 100 years you may be right. Who knows. Admit defeat. Today you are wrong.

18 out of 338 is an absolutely shocking statistic

Many of the funds that are still in existence are in breach of the Governments regulations and will eventually fail because companies cannot maintain their commitments to the funds. In the long term even the most solvent pension funds (except monopolies) will fail as life expectancy continues to increase in a world where there is no profitable place in which to invest money. The Chinese have been very careful to prevent foreigners investing large amounts of money in their country and then taking out the profits.

http://www.howitends.co.uk/the-pensions-crisis.php

[chiangmaikelly]

I'll not argue the semantics of what a ponzi scheme is, but "fully funded" is a very loaded claim.

It appears from the report that those 18 schemes currently have assets greater than their obligations *today* -- but a pension scheme has to be funded into the future for as long as the last member lives.

From the same article --

<Determining whether pension funds have adequate funding is, to some extent, a work of art. Companies estimate what they will owe in the future, and then discount that number based on how long it will be until they have to pay it and the interest rate at which their pension-plan investments could grow. The discount rate used can have a significant effect.>

I stand by what I said -- it's all smoke and mirrors

What you said is wrong. I gave you 18 pension funds that are fully funded today. Who can say anything about tomorrow? A bomb may blow up Fort Knox. You said no pension system is truly self funding. You are wrong. I gave you 18 examples. You did not say forever. Nothing lasts forever. Sorry. Today you are wrong. In 100 years you may be right. Who knows. Admit defeat. Today you are wrong.

18 out of 338 is an absolutely shocking statistic

Many of the funds that are still in existence are in breach of the Governments regulations and will eventually fail because companies cannot maintain their commitments to the funds. In the long term even the most solvent pension funds (except monopolies) will fail as life expectancy continues to increase in a world where there is no profitable place in which to invest money. The Chinese have been very careful to prevent foreigners investing large amounts of money in their country and then taking out the profits.

http://www.howitends...ions-crisis.php

Quote from your article. "All this manipulation of the real financial data by the British Government means that someone who saves will find that there has been no real growth in their savings during their lifetime. "

It should be mentioned I was not talking about pensions in the UK. The 18 fully funded pension funds are all in the US. It also should be mentioned the fully funded pension funds are the same as a bank who keeps all it's money in the vault. That is not to say the other 338 funds will fail.

[chiangmaikelly]

There is no absolute right and wrong Read the article with an open mind and you will see that they talk about pension scheme funding as being something that can and will change according to performance and political shennanigans. The whole point of claiming a pension fund is "fully funded" is to claim that every member will be paid in full according to his contract until the end of that contract (usually his/her death). Fully funded today means able to pay all their obligations in the future.

Quote (again) <....Companies estimate what they will owe in the future.....>

Did you ever get a speeding ticket and try that "There is no absolute right and wrong" with the cop?

[jpinx]

.......................................

http://www.howitends...ions-crisis.php

Interesting reading -- re-inforces my view that it's all smoke and mirrors.

For about 15 years now I have been saying that the Chinese will take over as world leaders. They have the right mentality for playing the very long game. Western philosophy (and politics) goes for the "fast buck" - a concept that will most certainly be their undoing.

Interestingly the "oriental" mentality used to exist in Thailand, but as it gets more westernised it falls into the "fast buck" trap.

The concept that "no growth is a failure" is at the root of most of what ails the world economy. We have lost the ability to be satisfied with what we've got today and only expect the same tomorrow.

More More More is not an option anymore.......

Edited January 23, 2013 by jpinx

[chiangmaikelly]

.......................................

http://www.howitends...ions-crisis.php

Interesting reading -- re-inforces my view that it's all smoke and mirrors.

For about 15 years now I have been saying that the Chinese will take over as world leaders. They have the right mentality for playing the very long game. Western philosophy (and politics) goes for the "fast buck" - a concept that will most certainly be their undoing.

Interestingly the "oriental" mentality used to exist in Thailand, but as it gets more westernised it falls into the "fast buck" trap.

The concept that "no growth is a failure" is at the root of most of what ails the world economy. We have lost the ability to be satisfied with what we've got today and only expect the same tomorrow.

More More More is not an option anymore.......

The Chinese empire has been around since 221 BC. If they were going to take over don't you think they would have done it by now?

[midas]

.......................................

http://www.howitends...ions-crisis.php

Interesting reading -- re-inforces my view that it's all smoke and mirrors.

For about 15 years now I have been saying that the Chinese will take over as world leaders. They have the right mentality for playing the very long game. Western philosophy (and politics) goes for the "fast buck" - a concept that will most certainly be their undoing.

Interestingly the "oriental" mentality used to exist in Thailand, but as it gets more westernised it falls into the "fast buck" trap.

The concept that "no growth is a failure" is at the root of most of what ails the world economy. We have lost the ability to be satisfied with what we've got today and only expect the same tomorrow.

More More More is not an option anymore.......

The Chinese empire has been around since 221 BC. If they were going to take over don't you think they would have done it by now?

Many would believe that this process is ongoing, right now. i mean even the American revolutionary war took eight years to complete

Wait till they have finished their accumulation of gold bullion holdings and then come back and we can discuss the strength of the renminbi versus the US dollar

Edited January 23, 2013 by midas

[Naam]

.......................................

http://www.howitends...ions-crisis.php

Interesting reading -- re-inforces my view that it's all smoke and mirrors.

For about 15 years now I have been saying that the Chinese will take over as world leaders. They have the right mentality for playing the very long game. Western philosophy (and politics) goes for the "fast buck" - a concept that will most certainly be their undoing.

Interestingly the "oriental" mentality used to exist in Thailand, but as it gets more westernised it falls into the "fast buck" trap.

The concept that "no growth is a failure" is at the root of most of what ails the world economy. We have lost the ability to be satisfied with what we've got today and only expect the same tomorrow.

More More More is not an option anymore.......

in some areas "more more more" is not only an option but a mandatory target as long as there's global population growth. experts estimate an end to growth for 2050/2060.

p.s. masters in "more more more growth" are and will be for many years to come the..... Chinese! they have to compensate a huge backlog.

[jpinx]

.......................................

http://www.howitends...ions-crisis.php

Interesting reading -- re-inforces my view that it's all smoke and mirrors.

For about 15 years now I have been saying that the Chinese will take over as world leaders. They have the right mentality for playing the very long game. Western philosophy (and politics) goes for the "fast buck" - a concept that will most certainly be their undoing.

Interestingly the "oriental" mentality used to exist in Thailand, but as it gets more westernised it falls into the "fast buck" trap.

The concept that "no growth is a failure" is at the root of most of what ails the world economy. We have lost the ability to be satisfied with what we've got today and only expect the same tomorrow.

More More More is not an option anymore.......

in some areas "more more more" is not only an option but a mandatory target as long as there's global population growth. experts estimate an end to growth for 2050/2060.

p.s. masters in "more more more growth" are and will be for many years to come the..... Chinese! they have to compensate a huge backlog.

There is a school of thought that reckons nature will take a hand in either "natural" disasters, or by encouraging humans natural propensity for war. We already produce enough food to feed the world and latest estimates are that in the west about 50% is wasted. Attitudes need to change -- dinner is more important than an iPod

[chiangmaikelly]

Many would believe that this process is ongoing, right now. i mean even the American revolutionary war took eight years to complete

Wait till they have finished their accumulation of gold bullion holdings and then come back and we can discuss the strength of the renminbi versus the US dollar

I should have been more specific. I was not talking about the US. I was talking about 2000 years of history before the US even was a country.

Perhaps we should get back on topic which as I see it the OP listed 4 articles about Pension Ponzi schemes in the UK? The first article being and I quote, "Britain's corporate stars face pension time bomb ."

[midas]

Many would believe that this process is ongoing, right now. i mean even the American revolutionary war took eight years to complete

Wait till they have finished their accumulation of gold bullion holdings and then come back and we can discuss the strength of the renminbi versus the US dollar

I should have been more specific. I was not talking about the US. I was talking about 2000 years of history before the US even was a country.

Perhaps we should get back on topic which as I see it the OP listed 4 articles about Pension Ponzi schemes in the UK? The first article being and I quote, "Britain's corporate stars face pension time bomb ."

This very interesting article from today should give you a clue as to why the pension Ponzi is finished!

http://globaleconomicanalysis.blogspot.com/2013/01/meet-baxter-robot-out-to-get-your.html

[Yumthai]

Bb rv e a

[Naam]

Bb rv e a

yes!

[mccw]

Many would believe that this process is ongoing, right now. i mean even the American revolutionary war took eight years to complete

Wait till they have finished their accumulation of gold bullion holdings and then come back and we can discuss the strength of the renminbi versus the US dollar

I should have been more specific. I was not talking about the US. I was talking about 2000 years of history before the US even was a country.

Perhaps we should get back on topic which as I see it the OP listed 4 articles about Pension Ponzi schemes in the UK? The first article being and I quote, "Britain's corporate stars face pension time bomb ."

The pension time bomb applies to all western / developed countries. The issue is demographics and low interest rates. Plenty of articles relating to America, Japan, EU etc.

The term "developed economies" should no longer be used in my opinion since they are so fundamentally broken it serves as a model for the mess other countries should avoid at all cost rather than wish to be "developed" also.

The asian culture of citizen survival with out nanny state and the family structure as safety net as natural replacement are the two things that will hold them stronger in the face of adversity. 3 generations of benefits culture live leave vast swaths with no idea how to take care of themselves. Also the asian link still with farming and related knowledge of how to find and produce food.

[chiangmaikelly]

Today, founder Bill Gates is one of the richest men in the world and Microsoft has earned its place on the best retirement plans list by offering to match 50 percent up to 6 percent of an employee’s pay.

Employees are immediately eligible and immediately 100 percent vested.

There are three tiers of investment offered, depending on the employee’s experience and interest in investing. The company also offers a financial-education program for employees.

Over 87 percent of employees participate in the retirement plan.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/39286748/page/6 (10 Companies with the best retirement plans)

[Yumthai]

Bb rv e a

yes!

Sorry but it appears my phone wanted to express its opinion about this thread... Still wondering what it meant

[midas]

Today, founder Bill Gates is one of the richest men in the world and Microsoft has earned its place on the best retirement plans list by offering to match 50 percent up to 6 percent of an employee’s pay.

Employees are immediately eligible and immediately 100 percent vested.

There are three tiers of investment offered, depending on the employee’s experience and interest in investing. The company also offers a financial-education program for employees.

Over 87 percent of employees participate in the retirement plan.

http://www.cnbc.com/...748/page/6 (10 Companies with the best retirement plans)

the best retirement plans list

Trust CNBC to peddle such rubbish......

Because......Microsoft pension scheme seems to have one the biggest question marks of all hanging over it ?

http://billparish.com/msftfraudfacts.html

[chiangmaikelly]

Today, founder Bill Gates is one of the richest men in the world and Microsoft has earned its place on the best retirement plans list by offering to match 50 percent up to 6 percent of an employee’s pay.

Employees are immediately eligible and immediately 100 percent vested.

There are three tiers of investment offered, depending on the employee’s experience and interest in investing. The company also offers a financial-education program for employees.

Over 87 percent of employees participate in the retirement plan.

http://www.cnbc.com/...748/page/6 (10 Companies with the best retirement plans)

the best retirement plans list

Trust CNBC to peddle such rubbish......

Because......Microsoft pension scheme seems to have one the biggest question marks of all hanging over it ?

http://billparish.co...fraudfacts.html

There are 9 other firms in the story. Is Fox better than CNBC?