Sin Suan Tuan, Or How To Use That To Get House Ownership

[Khun Jean]

I researching this for a while and another post on this forum highlighted again a circumstance where "Sin Suan Tuan" and "Sin Somros" is important.

I am looking for thought about this scenario, and welcome lots of feedback and shooting holes.

(I do the married foreign male/Thai female want to buy land then build house scenario)

The scenario (with questions) is as follows:

1) Buy land. The choice here is to do that in the Thai's name. Foreigner signs a paper that money to purchase land is from the Thai, irrelevant if that is true or not at that moment it will become true and is seen as a gift, it is registered as such and will end up in the 'Sin Suan Tuan' of the Thai.

2) Building the house.

Now here it gets interesting because probably the money comes from the foreign spouse. As such it can be registered as his personal asset. Here it also gets difficult because you would still need to prove that the money used was his 'Sin Suan Tuan' in the first place. Would like some feedback how this could be done. I would assume that when you bought a property in your own country before the marriage and sell it, or money on saving account etc would be easy enough to prove. But how would the procedure be to get it in his 'Sin Suan Tuan'?

Land bought house build. Who owns what?

If the house can be the foreigners 'Sin Suan Tuan' the situation is that the land and house together can not be sold together without the consent of both parties. (Can the Thai still sell the land only?)

When divorcing proceeds could be divided, but can the Thai make impossible to use the house, which would be a reason to divorce which would lead to dividing proceeds again. Would this be enough 'protection'?

If the house ends up as 'Sin Somros' that would mean a sale needs both consent again. What happens to the proceeds? Is the original amount the foreigner spent from his 'Sin Suan Tuan' still his and are only the 'fruits' of the property (profit) considered 'Sin Somros'?

Just some thoughts so far.

'Start shooting!'

[oracle]

I don't know but maybe having your name in the housebook?

[Khun Jean]

My understanding at this moment is that the building plans have to be in your name, the building permit and proof that every bill is paid by you.

The house book is just a registration of address. I don't have one so i can not check it now.

[hanuman2543]

Do you plan to rent the land from the Thai owner and then build the house in your name?

[Khun Jean]

Do you plan to rent the land from the Thai owner and then build the house in your name?

I don't plan anything.

I am researching what is mentioned in my first post. Please read it again.

[ballbreaker]

Maintain a good paper trail for that money that built the house.

Perhaps a legalized document signed by the wife that funds used to build house were yours before marriage. In my eyes if its legal for the land office to require such a document that states funds were from Thai and not foreigner then same should be true for house. Just make sure permits and bills are in your name.

Although contracts between married persons can be canceled it might be useful to have Thai land owner issue foreigner SUPERFICIES for the property. Just make sure you build something like Thai style stilt house that can be dismantled and moved should spouse cancel SUPERFICIES.

[Khun Jean]

Thanks for the info. I feel that this 'solution' is more acceptable to many as it will give at least some control and way to retrieve a large part of money spend. It would protect against ending up with nothing at all.

The information that is missing , is what will happen when the Thai sells the land to another. Will the land office demand a paper showing consent of the foreigner because his house is on the land, giving the foreigner the possibility to stop a sale.

How separate are land and house once the house is build, do the land and house become 'one'?.

[ballbreaker]

The Superficies would need to be properly worded to prevent sale of property without building owners approval and if approved the new owner would be required to accept Superficies.

[jamescollister]

OP

Section 1471. Sin Suan Tua consists of:

(1) property belonging to either spouse before marriage

(2) property for personal use, dress or ornament suitable for station in life, or tools necessary for carrying on the profession of either spouse

(3) property acquired by either spouse during marriage through a will or gift

The way I read it, you would need to own the house before marriage.

If you have already signed saying the money is a gift and you will make no claim on the land, then make a claim. Could be considered that you were trying to circumvent Thai land laws. Jim

[jamescollister]

The Superficies would need to be properly worded to prevent sale of property without building owners approval and if approved the new owner would be required to accept Superficies.

Don't know how that would hold up either, if you have sign saying you make no claim on the land.

Plus a contract made is a personal agreement and has no weight in law, the one you sign in the land office is what counts.

Then their is the problem with rent, if your wife G/F decides to play hardball she may go and claim you have not paid the rent for 2 years and agreement is finished.

Haven't seen the land office form so not sure what it says, if you have a copy please post. Would be interested in reading. Jim

[Khun Jean]

OP

Section 1471. Sin Suan Tua consists of:

(1) property belonging to either spouse before marriage

(2) property for personal use, dress or ornament suitable for station in life, or tools necessary for carrying on the profession of either spouse

(3) property acquired by either spouse during marriage through a will or gift

The way I read it, you would need to own the house before marriage.

If you have already signed saying the money is a gift and you will make no claim on the land, then make a claim. Could be considered that you were trying to circumvent Thai land laws. Jim

But there is also:

(Section 1472) if a personal asset has been exchanged to other property, other property has been bought or money has been acquired from selling it, such other property or money acquired shall be a personal asset. For example, if you buy a car during your marriage and you pay for the car with personal money (not marital) the car is a personal asset of the spouse who paid for it (if paid with personal property), even though acquired during the marriage

So if you already had assets before marriage those will stay personal asset. It is like a prenuptial.

This would mean that you could register property, assets on the bank etc, certify with a notary for example, before marriage to prevent misunderstandings.

Everything bought with that money (not the fruits of it like dividend or profit) will be personal (sin Suan Tuan).

Edited January 26, 2013 by Khun Jean

[TommoPhysicist]

You buy the house with minimum deposit and maximum home loan in her name.

Say 10% down, 90% home loan.

Sign the papers to say entirely hers (the 10% deposit)

Then make sure the loan payment comes from your (foreigner) bank account.

That makes the house 10% her sin suan tua, and 90% shared sin somros.

And there is no way it can be legally challenged as you have evidence the loan payments came from your account.

OK so it only gives you a 45% stake in the house, but that's better than nothing.

Edited January 26, 2013 by TommoPhysicist

[Khun Jean]

I would rather have 100% of the house, it is possible so why not go for that. Don't settle for less.

If 'She' owns the land and 'he' owns the house it is a much more balanced situation.

It would be 100% hers when the loan is paid. So in your old days you own nothing.

Edited January 26, 2013 by Khun Jean

[TommoPhysicist]

I would rather have 100% of the house, it is possible so why not go for that. Don't settle for less.

If 'She' owns the land and 'he' owns the house it is a much more balanced situation.

It would be 100% hers when the loan is paid. So in your old days you own nothing.

When the loan is paid, you would have a marriage certificate and proof 90% of the house was sin somros.

Not much point in owning the house, if it only gives you the right to knock it down and remove (unless wooden house)

Edited January 26, 2013 by TommoPhysicist

[Khun Jean]

Our opinion differs, the house is not worth much without the land, but the land is not much worth without the house.

If the relationship is in such a situation that house and land ownership becomes a problem, just divorce.

The property needs to be divided. If you own the house and she owns the land the only way for both to get money out of it is to make a new agreement. Like sell it, take out the sin suan tuan part first, split the rest.

Or you could make a deal to rent the land, as she is not your wife anymore it would be a good contract.

At least you have a much stronger situation then when the land is hers and 50% of the house is hers.

When you pay of 90% with your money, say over 30 years and you can proof that the money is not only paid by you, but that it also came from your personal 'Sin Suan Tuan' then you are right. Except you have paid almost the double price if not more for the house, the bank has the most profit. And that is another of my personal things, i hate to see banks make profit on my earnings, only when it is the last resort.

[jamescollister]

OP

Section 1471. Sin Suan Tua consists of:

(1) property belonging to either spouse before marriage

(2) property for personal use, dress or ornament suitable for station in life, or tools necessary for carrying on the profession of either spouse

(3) property acquired by either spouse during marriage through a will or gift

The way I read it, you would need to own the house before marriage.

If you have already signed saying the money is a gift and you will make no claim on the land, then make a claim. Could be considered that you were trying to circumvent Thai land laws. Jim

But there is also:

(Section 1472) if a personal asset has been exchanged to other property, other property has been bought or money has been acquired from selling it, such other property or money acquired shall be a personal asset. For example, if you buy a car during your marriage and you pay for the car with personal money (not marital) the car is a personal asset of the spouse who paid for it (if paid with personal property), even though acquired during the marriage

So if you already had assets before marriage those will stay personal asset. It is like a prenuptial.

This would mean that you could register property, assets on the bank etc, certify with a notary for example, before marriage to prevent misunderstandings.

Everything bought with that money (not the fruits of it like dividend or profit) will be personal (sin Suan Tuan).

Good point, but as lawyers would say in my opinion that section applies to Thai nationals only.

As said, if you contest these things in court, you are contesting the law not the agreement. As a foreigner think you have little chance of overturning a Thai law, never mind the cost of a high court case. Jim