Smokemachine Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Someone told me that in order to support multiples of electric bbq steamboat (1400w/220v) need to change the electric power to 30amp. And for normal usage, the white electric cable will do. But if need to support at least 20 sets of bbq steamboat and other electric stuff need to use the black cable (grade 4) as it will generate the electric flow smoothly and also for safety reason. I'm not sure what that black electric cable is. Anyone know is this information accurate. Or just need to upgrade the electric power 30amp go along with the normal white electric cables will do? pls advise, tks~~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David48 Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Kelvin ... welcome back ... I've really missed you. How are you? What have you been up to? I actually am a qualified electrician (truely) ... but I only recently left Thailand so can't help you personally with this one. You do get around a bit ... where are you now as that will help with the electrician choice. You might wish to employ a local (Thai) electrician though as they have lots of unconventional ways to solve your problem. All the best David48 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokemachine Posted February 1, 2013 Author Share Posted February 1, 2013 Kelvin ... welcome back ... I've really missed you. How are you? What have you been up to? I actually am a qualified electrician (truely) ... but I only recently left Thailand so can't help you personally with this one. You do get around a bit ... where are you now as that will help with the electrician choice. You might wish to employ a local (Thai) electrician though as they have lots of unconventional ways to solve your problem. All the best David48 Hi David, i miss u too. I'm glad that you willing to waste your couple of minutes replying my post haha~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayned Posted February 1, 2013 Share Posted February 1, 2013 Post your question in the DIY housing forum. There are plenty of "qualified" sparkies there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crossy Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 Moving to DIY. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electau Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 You will need at least 4 circuits min of 20A 2.5sqmm, you will have to check the size of the consumers mains and metering first. Allow for any additional load that you may install. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crossy Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 The colour of the cable is nothing to do with it's current carrying capacity. Your steamboats will draw about 6.3A each, working from that for each meter size available you could support the following:- 5/15 meter = 2 steamboats 15/45 meter = 7 steamboats 30/100 meter = 15 steamboats These figures would leave a little over for ancillary systems (lights, TV etc). In reality it's unlikely that all the steamboats would be on full power at all times (they are thermostatically controlled), so you could safely support 20-25 on a 30/100 supply (but 20 on a 15/45 would be pushing the envelope). PEA require the use of 35mm2 cable from a 30/100 meter or they won't connect permanent power (but confirm with your local office). You need to arrange the electrics in your restaurant so that a maximum of 4 steamboats are on each 20A outlet circuit, if you upload a layout plan of the tables we can give an idea of how you need to go about wiring it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electau Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 You might be better off using a 3 phase and neutral supply and balance all loading accross the three phases. Will require a 3 phase 32A meter. Mains can be smaller, eg 10sqmm. switch board would have to be upgraded. RCBOs on all socket outlets. Earthing as required. Installation will most probably be TT, neutral not bonded to main earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impulse Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 (edited) No disrespect meant to the OP because it's tough to find qualified electricians here that live up to some code. And bigger wire costs a lot more money. But this is a perfect example of why the "nanny states" have building and electrical codes and require electrical work be done by qualified electricians that are then on the hook with liability for their work. Follow the wrong advice here and you'll either electrocute a bunch of people or burn down the building, or maybe electrocute the firemen who come to put the fire out... If you're stringing together 20 steamboats, you owe it to the people you invite over to have it done correctly by qualified people, even if you could get away with winging it. Or you can just daisy chain a bunch of 6 socket power strips together and hope for the best.... Edited February 2, 2013 by impulse Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h90 Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 No disrespect meant to the OP because it's tough to find qualified electricians here that live up to some code. And bigger wire costs a lot more money. But this is a perfect example of why the "nanny states" have building and electrical codes and require electrical work be done by qualified electricians that are then on the hook with liability for their work. Follow the wrong advice here and you'll either electrocute a bunch of people or burn down the building, or maybe electrocute the firemen who come to put the fire out... If you're stringing together 20 steamboats, you owe it to the people you invite over to have it done correctly by qualified people, even if you could get away with winging it. Or you can just daisy chain a bunch of 6 socket power strips together and hope for the best.... connecting 20 steamboats is not the same as building a nuclear power plant.....And if he does everything, really everything wrong, one wire will burn but not the building unless he fix it on wood.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David48 Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 On the elctricial front ... I'd love to find a few of these ... Sadly, photographed in China. Maybe a business opportunity in Thailand? . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
impulse Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 connecting 20 steamboats is not the same as building a nuclear power plant.....And if he does everything, really everything wrong, one wire will burn but not the building unless he fix it on wood.... There's a good reason the US NEC (National Electric Code) was written by the NFPA, (National Fire Protection Association). I'd put your input into the category of "advice that could get someone killed". 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draftvader Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 (edited) On the elctricial front ... I'd love to find a few of these ... Sadly, photographed in China. Maybe a business opportunity in Thailand? . I'm pretty sure that I have seen universal sockets in HomePro over the past few months. I know that plenty of the high end multiplugs now have these on them (the B500+ for 3m ones). The universal sockets I have seen are the more compact versions like this one. ....or maybe I was dreaming? Edited February 2, 2013 by draftvader 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bankruatsteve Posted February 2, 2013 Share Posted February 2, 2013 If you have equipment that needs that type of receptacle, I can see why you might want them - but otherwise, I don't think they are relevant to Thailand (or this topic). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokemachine Posted February 2, 2013 Author Share Posted February 2, 2013 The colour of the cable is nothing to do with it's current carrying capacity. Your steamboats will draw about 6.3A each, working from that for each meter size available you could support the following:- 5/15 meter = 2 steamboats 15/45 meter = 7 steamboats 30/100 meter = 15 steamboats These figures would leave a little over for ancillary systems (lights, TV etc). In reality it's unlikely that all the steamboats would be on full power at all times (they are thermostatically controlled), so you could safely support 20-25 on a 30/100 supply (but 20 on a 15/45 would be pushing the envelope). PEA require the use of 35mm2 cable from a 30/100 meter or they won't connect permanent power (but confirm with your local office). You need to arrange the electrics in your restaurant so that a maximum of 4 steamboats are on each 20A outlet circuit, if you upload a layout plan of the tables we can give an idea of how you need to go about wiring it all. Hi, thanks for replying me. Right now the place is only supported with 5amp power supply. The guy said in order to support more than 20 steamboat need to upgrade from 5 amp to 30amp. He mentioned the black color cable grade 4 is ideally for the usage as the place need alot of wiring and it is better for safety purposes as well. So does it really matter? Or like you said, the cable is ok regardless white or blac. As long we have register to change our power supply 5amp to 30amp at the local electric supply office. We change the 30amp at the place and do all the wiring with normal cable is fine at all?? And every 2 steamboat is connected to 1 power plug socket. I think it should be fine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokemachine Posted February 2, 2013 Author Share Posted February 2, 2013 dear guys, thanks for the replies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crossy Posted February 3, 2013 Share Posted February 3, 2013 Hi, thanks for replying me. Right now the place is only supported with 5amp power supply. The guy said in order to support more than 20 steamboat need to upgrade from 5 amp to 30amp. He mentioned the black color cable grade 4 is ideally for the usage as the place need alot of wiring and it is better for safety purposes as well. So does it really matter? Or like you said, the cable is ok regardless white or blac. As long we have register to change our power supply 5amp to 30amp at the local electric supply office. We change the 30amp at the place and do all the wiring with normal cable is fine at all?? And every 2 steamboat is connected to 1 power plug socket. I think it should be fine. According to the Bangkok Cable website THW (Table 4) cable is available in White, Black, Red, Blue, Green or "other color" (assume to order), they all have the same capacity. The colour is unimportant it's the cross sectional area (CSA) in mm2 that matters. Connecting two steamboats to a single power outlet is OK. BUT if all your outlets are on a single circuit (which they likely are if you have only a 5/15 at present) and you try to run 20 at once you will open the breaker (if you are lucky) or start a fire (if you are not). You win not "be fine". I strongly suspect that a complete rewire of the place is in order with no more than two outlets (4 steamboats) on a single circuit (breaker). As a minimum add five new 20A breakers in a new distribution board and run new wiring for your steamboats. Since this looks like a restaurant all the steamboat circuits must be RCD protected for public safety. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
draftvader Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 On the elctricial front ... I'd love to find a few of these ... Sadly, photographed in China. Maybe a business opportunity in Thailand? . I'm pretty sure that I have seen universal sockets in HomePro over the past few months. I know that plenty of the high end multiplugs now have these on them (the B500+ for 3m ones). The universal sockets I have seen are the more compact versions like this one. ....or maybe I was dreaming? Just to cover this (and it is relevant to Thailand) these ARE available in HomePro. Both complete sockets and the kind that you install into the panel yourself. Not much more expensive than the others in HomePro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electau Posted February 4, 2013 Share Posted February 4, 2013 (edited) You have a number of options for wiring the hotplates. 1. Wire on 2.5sqmm with a 20A RCBO on each circuit. 2. Wire on 4.0sqmm with a 32A RCBO on each circuit. Do not exceed the current rating of the protective device. In calculating max demand allow for aircon load, hot water, other socket outlets etc. You best option would be 30/100A metering , 3 phase and neutral comsumers mains, load balance over the 3 phases, 50A consumers mains minimum. You should consult with the PEA/MEA first before commencing any work to obtain their requirements. As this is a commercial venture your peakload at any time will depend on the number of hotplates is use a guide might be 65% of max demand. Clipsal (Thailand) have switched outlets. Edited February 4, 2013 by electau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crossy Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 With all due respect to electau I would NOT go for the 32A / 4mm2 option, stick to 2.5mm2 and 20A breakers. My reasoning? Without UK style fused plugtops the temptation to daisy-chain unfused power boards is just too great. How long will a typical Thai 16A(?) plug and outlet last at 32A (or much more before the 32A breaker opens) before we have conflagration? It's all well and good when first installed and all the outlets are correctly positioned for the tables, then the management decide to move the tables around and discover there are no longer enough outlets in certain areas...... Good point regarding switched outlets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electau Posted February 5, 2013 Share Posted February 5, 2013 (edited) With all due respect to electau I would NOT go for the 32A / 4mm2 option, stick to 2.5mm2 and 20A breakers. My reasoning? Without UK style fused plugtops the temptation to daisy-chain unfused power boards is just too great. How long will a typical Thai 16A(?) plug and outlet last at 32A (or much more before the 32A breaker opens) before we have conflagration? It's all well and good when first installed and all the outlets are correctly positioned for the tables, then the management decide to move the tables around and discover there are no longer enough outlets in certain areas...... Good point regarding switched outlets. Yes one sees your point Crossy, but 4.0sqmm 32 A is permitted for socket outlets. The protective device protects the cable in the event of a fault from undue temp rise. This is permitted under AS3000. Different standards. The flex lead to the appliance should not exceed 1.8metres. Power boards should not be used. One appliance per socket outlet. Where power boards are used ( and not here) they should be protected by an integral CB not exceeding 10A. Appliances may have an integral fuse or protective device. Leads 2 core + E. On overload the protective device will trip at 1.45 x rated current. it will hold 1.2 continuously. Under AS3000 socket outlets, 10, 15, 20A may be protected by a protective device up to 40A and 10sqmm. Different standards. A 10A plug top will fit a 20A outlet, A 20A plug top will not fit a 10A outlet. (AS3112). You could use 4.0sqmm and 25A protective device. The Impedance must be low enough to trip the protective device on earth fault, ie 0.4secs. This will be achieved by the use of RCDs/RCBOs. That is my reasoning, the same problems with power boards will occur with 2.5sqmm and a 20A protective device. 1.45X 20A = 29A convenional tripping time 1 hour at 40C. 1.45x 32= 46.4A. These figures will not cause undue temp rise. The cable temp must not exceed 75C for PVC/PVC. As one pointed out there are always options, one of the main criteria is cost of cable per metre. Edited February 5, 2013 by electau Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thaibeachlovers Posted February 15, 2013 Share Posted February 15, 2013 IMO, whatever you do, get an electrician that is used to working on industrial setups. The local "electrians":I've had in were, to be frank, dangerous. I do my own wiring in the house if I can, but if you are in a restaurant, as appears likely, you need to cover your ass in a legal sense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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