Another Dcc Thread -- Grace Dental This Time

[JimGant]

Almost hate to bring this subject up again, as it usually brings the "use cash" crowd out of the woodwork. And if you don't know what DCC is, here's one of the many links on this forum discussing it.

http://www.thaivisa....cc#entry4651120

Anyway, I've used Grace Dental for over a decade. Have always paid with my US Visa credit card. And until early this week, have never had the DCC problem with them (thus never having to say "baht please" when I hand over my credit card).

Tuesday I had my teeth cleaned. Handed over my Visa. A got a credit card slip back -- with a dollar amount at the bottom -- the sure sign of the DCC villain. Told the clerk, "No, reverse this charge, and charge me in baht." She argued it would be the same price (which she probably really believed, as I doubt they're trained that this new method of billing is screwing the customer). Anyway, had to get her supervisor involved, and the charge was reversed, then recharged in baht. (And, just as in Home Pro, where it was demonstrated to me years ago, button 1 is for baht, button 2 is for DCC. Don't know if it's spring loaded to button 2.....)

When I got home, checked the Visa account on-line, and the reversed charge was nearly 6% more than the baht charge. Yeah, for a simple cleaning, this amounted to a few bucks. However, for serious dental problems, your wallet's going to get pulled along with your teeth, if you're not careful to look at your credit slip.

Hospitals in Thailand have led the list of DCC culprits. Now dental clinics?

As far as I know, Home Pro still has DCC. So too Sizzler and Siam TV. Rimping stopped the practice a few years back, having gotten tired of having to reverse so many charges (the manager told me). I'm sure there are many others still out there, so 'heads up.'

[mesquite]

I always tell them to charge me in Thai baht. If the credit card slip comes back in USD I refuse to sign it and demand they redo the charge in THB.

But all this is quite rare as I normally use a Thai credit card when I don't use cash.

[hellodolly]

My dentist is up front about it. I was told that a less than 2,000 baht bill would carry a 3% service charge. Being as her price is high for cleaning teeth 600 baht it means that I have to pay an extra 18 baht. Hardly worth the effort to get out of it. Like I said I am told up front and if I don't like it I can go elsewhere.

[circusman]

I don't consider 600 baht high for cleaning. I pay 800.

[hellodolly]

I don't consider 600 baht high for cleaning. I pay 800.

Nor do I. But we have a cheap Charlie following here. I was just acknowledging them.

[Rancid]

The dentists are getting pricier, at some stage the comparative atvantage to OS will reduce. That aside I have a history of failed root canals, failed gold crowns, faile root removals and a failed implant at a variety of the so-called top CM dentists. Mind you it may just be me.

[Genericnic]

I don't consider 600 baht high for cleaning. I pay 800.

Even 800 baht is less than the co-pay in the U.S. for my dental insurance.

David

[kaptainrob]

Whilst on the subject .... I have previously used the same clinic as HelloDolly - excellent work! Ideal location when we lived in city area.

Recently needed 2 extractions, with panoramic X-ray (star wars equipment), anesthetic, meds and stitches = 1700 baht included return visit/check .... Empress Dental on Canal Rd, Mae Hia.

Edited February 10, 2013 by kaptainrob

[mogoso]

I think Dr. Jarunee owes me a rebate after seeing what she charged above posters for cleaning. Costs me 1000 baht 1200 with an x-ray. Maybe my teeth are too big or my breath is too obnoxious or I'm just a disagreeable person to do business with, or a combination of all three. She did a great job on my implant, and an even better job on my wallet paying for it She wanted a good photo of her work but my moustache is just too disagreeable to allow it. She suggested that maybe I could cut it, not a chance my wife has wanted it gone for years and I still inflict it on the unsuspecting public and will continue to do so.

[chris1dna]

Grace was 8k baht for my whitening. I was shocked an called around an it seemed everyone was charging this. Was I taken to the cleaners? Considering it took over an hour and a half maybe it's a deal. But seems like just five years ago the last I had it done their it was far cheaper.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[THAILIBAN]

NOK AIR not doing this anymore at their Airport-Counters ?

All Thai-owned Hotel chains (Centara, Amari, Dusit) do the same - they really only feel happy if they found a way to extract more money from foreign customers....

[Mapguy]

Actually, some international travelers ---especially business travelers --- going from country to country find the service very convenient for record keeping, expense statements, et cetera. Perhaps some other travelers do, as well. Saying "...a way to extract more money from foreign customers" is a bit sharp.

As well, one can generally get a Thai credit card. Not so difficult.

[JimGant]

Actually, some international travelers ---especially business travelers --- going from country to country find the service very convenient for record keeping, expense statements, et cetera.

Yeah, just like this BS promotion (aimed at US merchants) for DCC says:

A large percentage of these tourists and business travelers would rather pay for goods and services in their own local currency. By paying in their local currency, tourists and business travelers can make informed decisions about their purchases and feel confident knowing the exact amount they are paying. Currently, international travelers using credit cards in the United States have to wait for their monthly statement to find out how much their transactions cost in their local currency. This method is inconvenient and often challenging for business travelers who need to keep track of expenses.

Except business travelers don't need real-time expense info, but can wait a day for the charge to process -- then obtain it on-line (particularly if waiting a day saves 4-6%). Waiting for the end-of-month statement ain't no more. Any business owner who cares about his bottom line will advise his employees never to use DCC -- and if they do, the extra 4-6% cost will come out of their expense reimbursement.

But, yeah, a nitnoy DCC charge isn't a big deal. However, the servicing banks haven't (yet) set up DCC capable machines everywhere -- just where large sales -- and volume -- are in evidence. Most Mom and Pop stores don't have this option -- but can (and do) add 3% on to the sales price to cover the card's interchange fee they pay. I never minded paying this -- just thought of it as the real price -- with a 3% discount if I decided to go 'cash only.' However, the Mom and Pop fee shouldn't be confused with DCC -- where the servicing bank pockets two-thirds of this gravy.

No, the real crunch to the wallet comes for big items -- like a new kitchen from Home Pro -- or a serious hospital stay. Interestingly, in the latter situation, it would appear that insurance claims use the "going exchange rate" -- probably the Interbank Rate -- and won't cover the added DCC cost. See http://www.thaivisa....cc#entry5229438

I like the convenience of using my US Visa card. It's got more fraud protection than Thai plastic -- plus its fee and cash back features means I'll always have an exchange rate better than the TT rate. However, sending money to Thailand, with which to pay off my Thai plastic, always means getting a less than TT rate, due to front and back end fees. Not a big difference -- but enough so that I'll be saying "baht please" for a long time to come when I hand over my US Visa card.

I haven't done this with merchants I've had good experience with. But I guess Grace Dental will change this going forward.

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

Ahh Jim.... another DCC thread!

I've had a couple of experiences on this lately in BKK....

--Was shopping at Tesco OnNut a week or so ago, made a small appliance purchase, and to my surprise... the university uniform student clerk gave me a DCC slip. I was in a hurry and with my wife, and it was a small purchase, so I let it slide. But I've shopped there often, and never had that locale give me a DCC slip before.

--Went to a Japanese pastry shop near Chidlom called Patisserie Masatomi.... The pastries were ho-hum, but the staff handed me a DCC charge slip. When I protested, they first claimed it was the same as paying in Thai baht (the usual wrong-headed claim) and then later insisted they didn't know how to and/or couldn't reverse the charge and re-ring it in baht... In the end, I signed the original slip, and they gave me back an equivalent amount for the DCC difference in cash.

--Did some shopping at HomePro Ploenchit in recent weeks, and recalling past problems, specifically asked that they ring the purchase in Thai baht. They did, and I had no problems with them over it.

--I wanna recall I had the same issue at BNH Hospital a couple months back. To my surprise, they handed me a DCC slip, and I returned it to the clerk, explained I wanted to be charged in baht, and they complied. Haven't had that problem at BNH very much in the past.

The part that really gets me is, almost universally, whenever a Thai clerk hands me a DCC slip, they invariably swear that the bill they're giving me is exactly the same as paying direct in Thai baht.... whereas I clearly know it really means about a 4% more expensive bill out of my pocket. I get tired of having that same tired conversation.

[Mapguy]

So, okay --- what the hey! --- just check the bloody receipt. If necessary insist on a chargeback and being charged in baht.

[Saan]

Grace was 8k baht for my whitening. I was shocked an called around an it seemed everyone was charging this. Was I taken to the cleaners? Considering it took over an hour and a half maybe it's a deal. But seems like just five years ago the last I had it done their it was far cheaper.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

4000 baht at my dentist. Modern surgery and, to my mind, and excellent dentist.

[chris1dna]

Grace was 8k baht for my whitening. I was shocked an called around an it seemed everyone was charging this. Was I taken to the cleaners? Considering it took over an hour and a half maybe it's a deal. But seems like just five years ago the last I had it done their it was far cheaper.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

4000 baht at my dentist. Modern surgery and, to my mind, and excellent dentist.

That's nice Saan. Care to share the info on the dentist?

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[AngelsLariat]

Actually, some international travelers ---especially business travelers --- going from country to country find the service very convenient for record keeping, expense statements, et cetera.

Yeah, just like this BS promotion (aimed at US merchants) for DCC says:

A large percentage of these tourists and business travelers would rather pay for goods and services in their own local currency. By paying in their local currency, tourists and business travelers can make informed decisions about their purchases and feel confident knowing the exact amount they are paying. Currently, international travelers using credit cards in the United States have to wait for their monthly statement to find out how much their transactions cost in their local currency. This method is inconvenient and often challenging for business travelers who need to keep track of expenses.

Except business travelers don't need real-time expense info, but can wait a day for the charge to process -- then obtain it on-line (particularly if waiting a day saves 4-6%). Waiting for the end-of-month statement ain't no more. Any business owner who cares about his bottom line will advise his employees never to use DCC -- and if they do, the extra 4-6% cost will come out of their expense reimbursement.

But, yeah, a nitnoy DCC charge isn't a big deal. However, the servicing banks haven't (yet) set up DCC capable machines everywhere -- just where large sales -- and volume -- are in evidence. Most Mom and Pop stores don't have this option -- but can (and do) add 3% on to the sales price to cover the card's interchange fee they pay. I never minded paying this -- just thought of it as the real price -- with a 3% discount if I decided to go 'cash only.' However, the Mom and Pop fee shouldn't be confused with DCC -- where the servicing bank pockets two-thirds of this gravy.

No, the real crunch to the wallet comes for big items -- like a new kitchen from Home Pro -- or a serious hospital stay. Interestingly, in the latter situation, it would appear that insurance claims use the "going exchange rate" -- probably the Interbank Rate -- and won't cover the added DCC cost. See http://www.thaivisa....cc#entry5229438

I like the convenience of using my US Visa card. It's got more fraud protection than Thai plastic -- plus its fee and cash back features means I'll always have an exchange rate better than the TT rate. However, sending money to Thailand, with which to pay off my Thai plastic, always means getting a less than TT rate, due to front and back end fees. Not a big difference -- but enough so that I'll be saying "baht please" for a long time to come when I hand over my US Visa card.

I haven't done this with merchants I've had good experience with. But I guess Grace Dental will change this going forward.

Have you ever read a coherent defense of DCC from the banking industry? I've seen that BS claim about it being more convenient for the customer before, but are there ever any scenarios that it works out to the financial benefit of the customer?

[TallGuyJohninBKK]

I despise DCC.... But in a way, it is more convenient -- and more expensive -- for the short visiting tourist.

The main difference is your check or ATM screen is showing you the primary amount in U.S. dollars, instead of the local currency. And for someone who's maybe never been to Thailand before and doesn't have a grasp on the local currency, seeing the amounts in dollars, and not having to mentally calculate the currency exchange every time you transact something, can be a convenience.

But that convenience comes with a price. In my past calculations when businesses have tried to give me a DCC check here, the difference usually seems to be about a 4% extra surcharge compared to if you paid the same bill charged in Thai baht. And that's in addition to any foreign currency surcharges that one's home bank may add of their own for foreign country ATM withdrawlas or purchases.

For anyone who's a veteran tourist here or lives here, it's just a ripoff.

PS - BTW, if you're using a home country bank card that does assess some foreign currency exchange fees, you won't avoid those fees by handling transactions here via DCC. Because the banking language on those charges typically covers transactions made in a foreign currency or those made physically outside the U.S., even if billed in dollars.

Edited July 6, 2013 by TallGuyJohninBKK

[hml367]

An explanation of DCC from the USA Visa Corporate web site, to show what JimGant and TallGuy are talking about... as they say in their posts, be careful of this DCC!

What is dynamic currency conversion?

Dynamic Currency Conversion (DCC), also referred to as Cardholder Preferred Currency (CPC), is a service offered by merchants – not Visa - in some countries when you are traveling abroad. If you choose to use the DCC service, the merchant will convert the purchase price of goods or services at the point of sale from the currency in which the price (i.e., the merchant’s local currency) is displayed into another currency (i.e. your home currency) using an exchange rate that typically includes a service fee.

Here’s an example of a DCC transaction:

A U.S. Visa cardholder is in Singapore and decides to purchase a box of chocolates priced at SGD 20. At checkout, the merchant offers the cardholder the option to pay in USD using a DCC service.

The merchant dynamically converts the SGD transaction amount to USD 15.80. The DCC transaction amount and transaction currency (in USD) are disclosed to the cardholder. An exchange rate of 0.79 (1 SGD = .79 USD), which includes a 2.5% mark up (over a wholesale exchange rate) and the 2.5% commission/fee/mark up are also disclosed to the cardholder.

The cardholder actively chooses DCC by checking a box on a printed receipt or pushing a button on an electronic screen and agrees to pay USD 15.80 for the box of chocolates using the exchange rate provided by the merchant that includes a 2.5% fee for the DCC service.

If you do not want to use DCC when making a purchase, then you have the right to refuse the offer and have your transaction billed in the merchant’s local currency, which will then use Visa’s conversion rate. If you did not agree to DCC, but see it on your bill, then you should ask your issuing bank to contest the charge.

Edited July 8, 2013 by hml367

[Saan]

Grace was 8k baht for my whitening. I was shocked an called around an it seemed everyone was charging this. Was I taken to the cleaners? Considering it took over an hour and a half maybe it's a deal. But seems like just five years ago the last I had it done their it was far cheaper.

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

4000 baht at my dentist. Modern surgery and, to my mind, and excellent dentist.

That's nice Saan. Care to share the info on the dentist?

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

Pongsakorn Dental Clinic, corner Moon Muang and Soi 2. The phone number is 053206445. I have not had much success with the phone number - the receptionist may also be the dental nurse.