Thailand's Culture Of Relationships?

[NanLaew]

This letter appeared in The Nation last Saturday. I think that it accurately states what most 'resident' foreigners may fail to comprehend about the culture of our chosen home and our hosts. I am not saying I condone how it is here but I do despair of those that feel that they must try and do their bit to try and change things. Note that I am not the author but it may be interesting to see some other opinions since Thai people flaunting their own laws and support of corruption in LOS does seem to raise hackles on this forum.

"Many people write to Thai newspapers complaining about the endemic corruption that exists here. They get very hot under the collar at what they see reported in the media every day - particularly inside state institutions such as the police, the courts, the Army and government ministries. Thai politicians excel at using their power for personal gain - to support their own networks of family and friends. In Thailand this kind of behaviour is completely normal (bunkun - the patron-client relationship) which has been reinforced by the long historical stratification of society along feudal lines, where everyone knows their place and accepts their fate/karma. To do otherwise is, well, just "un-Thai".

When I hear another angry soul bleating that there is no rule of law in Thailand, I want them to remember that Thailand is a culture of relationships, so the rule of law exists only in name and does not apply to those who have real power.

When someone complains that there is no democracy in Thailand and politicians operate inside an ideological vacuum, I want them to remember that Thailand is a culture of relationships, and that's all that matters. Everything in political life stems from this.

When someone complains that there is no justice in Thailand, I want them to remember that in the Thai mind the poor are poor because of their karma, and that the conviction rate is high because they don't have powerful patrons to protect them. The powerful and the rich are, of course, powerful and rich because of their karma too - even if their power was appropriated through corrupt means. Everything is "negotiable" for the rich and powerful - even justice - because Thailand is a culture of relationships.

So next time you rush to the keyboard to rattle off another despairing email to the newspapers, I want you to think twice and remember one thing: Thailand is a culture of relationships first and foremost. And this affects every dimension of social, economic, and political life and will continue to do so for many years to come."

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/opinion/Thailand-is-a-culture-of-relationships-30199628.html

[rattler]

Sounds to me like the only relationship here is with the authors right hand imo!

[NanLaew]

Sounds to me like the only relationship here is with the authors right hand imo!

I must assume that you and your acolytes would ostensibly be left-handed?

[rene123]

Well there certainly seems to be a different way of doing things here. And, if the locals want to continue getting handouts then maybe THEY have to change. Otherwise the handouts might end. I've certainly seen that family comes first in Thailand, even if mothers of children do not raise them. And, although grand parents might do the majority of looking after their grandkids, the parents of the children are off working somewhere else and sending money home.

[Banzai99]

What an absolute load of <deleted>, Thailand is what it is, and if anyone thinks a bunch of whining old Farangs will change it, think again.

[wayned]

Actually, I think that it is a well written article and describes the foundation of Thai society. These values have been implanted and embedded in the culture for centuries and they are not going to change in our lifetime.

[muythai2013]

you think to much

[wayned]

More productive than BLURTING!

[rattler]

Sounds to me like the only relationship here is with the authors right hand imo!

I must assume that you and your acolytes would ostensibly be left-handed?

Thailand s "culture" assumes I use neither and pay for this service from one of its many upstanding citizens.

Edited February 11, 2013 by rattler

[Boo]

There are a couple of interesting books , one if called democracy & corruption in Thailand. The other I will have to dig out as I can't recall the name but they both cover some aspects of this.

[Trembly]

The law of this land is the law of relationships.

The law of relationships has primacy in Thailand because it lends itself particularly well to the art of the possible in the absence of technological or orgainsational prowess.

Edited February 12, 2013 by Trembly

[jamhar]

Nicely written article.

[robblok]

If this is true then why do they make laws against corruption. Just for show ? Why are there laws anyway ... the powerful decide.

I think its a load of .....

If people really and truly believed this then there would be no laws and corruption would never be prosecuted.

Meanwhile if this is true they worry about a few spoofs on youtube a fake rolex of gaga and stuff like that while there isnt even rule of law here.

[whistleblower]

Actually, I think that it is a well written article and describes the foundation of Thai society. These values have been implanted and embedded in the culture for centuries and they are not going to change in our lifetime.

I disagree cultures change as a Nation progresses. When all the old grannies up North have died out who is going to look after the kids left behind while parents head to Bangkok for better jobs?

Who will be tending the rice paddies in 10- 20 years as the old farmers die out? The younger generation are more consumer/materialistic and want more money for phones etc. they dont wanna be upcountry.

A good example is the schoolgirls in the paper last week selling sex to buy mobile phones.

[NanLaew]

Actually, I think that it is a well written article and describes the foundation of Thai society. These values have been implanted and embedded in the culture for centuries and they are not going to change in our lifetime.

I disagree cultures change as a Nation progresses. When all the old grannies up North have died out who is going to look after the kids left behind while parents head to Bangkok for better jobs?

Who will be tending the rice paddies in 10- 20 years as the old farmers die out? The younger generation are more consumer/materialistic and want more money for phones etc. they dont wanna be upcountry.

A good example is the schoolgirls in the paper last week selling sex to buy mobile phones.

There's been a response from a Thai person to the original farang readers letter (the subject of the OP); as follows;

"The view - that we are a society of money and power worshippers with the poor content with their karma - is interesting. We can learn some foreigners' views. But his arrogant view of others wishing to set our rule-of-law standard higher is somewhat cocky.

Since the watershed October 14, 1973 uprising when the rich and powerful were brought down to earth by students and the educated middle class, Thailand has never been the same. Political awareness in Thailand has grown by leaps and bounds. Admittedly, after 40 years, to Western eyes, it may still look primitive. However, there have been many changes for the better because of the insatiable desire for fairness among Thais.

The Magna Carta was enunciated in England in 1215. It took many centuries for Westerners to reach the present level. Our 40-year effort has so far not been that bad."

Although the respondent appears to bristle at any attempt by foreigners to rationalise or explain the inadequacies wrought of this alleged Thai 'culture of relationships', I would tend to agree that the October 1973 revolt was a major game changer in this regard and agree up to a point that the scales were lifted from the eyes of the great unwashed with regard to their rights and what could be achieved without backhanders and blindly following the path of feudal-type patronage. However, I consider that the growing Thai middle class doesn't currently aspire to having a less corrupt, more honest and open government or better law enforcement and respect for the rule of law. I think that all they want right now is to have the same ability as the current ruling class of well-connected, rich, powerful and influential Thai citizens to flaunt the laws, fill their boots and generally piss on their neighbour. It's more of a case of wanting to be like the ones they appear to despise rather than try anything new that looks like hard work but doesn't appear to give them immediate reward.

[LburtonL]

you think to much

that's what my wife tell me all the time

[muythai2013]

you think to much

that's what my wife tell me all the time

truly wise woman.

[Berkshire]

Firstly, I'd like to read the farang's letter that the essay is responding to. The author in the OP seems to be simplifying things a bit, no doubt in response to the letter which--I'm guessing--probably has a condescending tone.

Secondly, Culture of Relationships is much more complicated than can be explained in brief. It doesn't always explain corruption--which everyone seems to agree is a bad thing--but it does explain why corruption can be systemic in certain institutions. And the karma thing is real--people in certain cultures accept their lot in life, almost to say that they deserve to be where they are, rich or poor.

In short, foreigners who come to Thailand with their holier-than-thou attitudes, thinking that they have the answers to Thailand's problems, are simply out of their element. In other words, they don't know what they're talking about. I think that's what the author in the OP is trying to say, in a rather congenial way.

[theblether]

The most interesting thing about this topic is.............

Farangs in denial.........

In denial that the same level of corruption is endemic in the West, vast contracts being awarded via the Old Boys network, jobs, political patronage, ( just look at the US political system ), pork barrel vote buying, serial bribery of the electorates every few years based upon writing cheques that the unborn will need to honour.............

Nepotism, police corruption in many ways, taking kickbacks from the criminals, selling information, protecting their own, blackmailing politicians, white collar fraud on a massive scale ( Enron for example, among many ), judicial bribery......almost unspoken but I can guarantee you that every ex-cop on this forum knows a bent judge.

In fact it's not been that long since just about every malady you can point out in Thailand occurred in the West, including literal vote buying, fuedal domination of the poor and working class.....what do you think the labour movements were all about? The rise of Trade Unionism? It was a battle to establish the rights of the poor to basic human rights.

The Poor Houses are still within living memory, the Magdalene system was only abolished in 1996, and I bet plenty of members here can remember the starvation of the Great Depression, if not personally, their parents will have told them all about it.

............and yet, just when the Trade Union movements managed to establish what they were seeking, they were taken over by megalomaniacs like Arthur Scargill and the infamous Jimmy Hoffa. Orwell was right, " All Pigs Are Equal, Some Are More Equal Than Others ". Pigs at the trough, sucking up vast amounts of patronage at the cost of the membership.

I could list you 50 examples right now of endemic corruption in the West, I bet you could too.......at least in Thailand there's a brutal honesty about it..........and if we are being honest, we know that we're in a Glass House throwing stones. Our countries are just as corrupt, but most of us are too blind to see it.

Corruption is part of human nature.......the only thing unusual about it in Thailand compared to the West is that it's more in your face.

It's as simple as that.

[Trembly]

Well said theblether.

[NanLaew]

Firstly, I'd like to read the farang's letter that the essay is responding to. The author in the OP seems to be simplifying things a bit, no doubt in response to the letter which--I'm guessing--probably has a condescending tone.

The italicised text in the OP post #1 is the original letter as posted in The Nation last Saturday. It is not in response to any earlier letter.

The italicised text in post #15 is the response to the letter (see above) as posted in The Nation last Monday.

Secondly, Culture of Relationships is much more complicated than can be explained in brief. It doesn't always explain corruption--which everyone seems to agree is a bad thing--but it does explain why corruption can be systemic in certain institutions. And the karma thing is real--people in certain cultures accept their lot in life, almost to say that they deserve to be where they are, rich or poor.

In short, foreigners who come to Thailand with their holier-than-thou attitudes, thinking that they have the answers to Thailand's problems, are simply out of their element. In other words, they don't know what they're talking about. I think that's what the author in the OP is trying to say, in a rather congenial way.

That is my take on the first letter. That person suggests that foreigners should refrain writing letters of complaint and admonishment to the newspaper about something they don't really comprehend; then tries to explain what they find so incomprehensible. I don't think he is being an apologist for Thai people in this regard, just stating what he reckons is the root cause and I would tend to agree.

Since there's a fair amount also use the keyboard to vent their frustrations and opinions on this matter here (and in other forums), I thought it could do with an airing on here.

Edited February 12, 2013 by NanLaew

[StreetCowboy]

Like the Thais, we know that the corruption in our countries is wrong. Unlike the Thais, we are able to stop our politicians plundering our national assets for their own benefits to the equivalent tune of several metro lines. None of our politicians has amassed personal wealth in the billions while in office.

SC

[Trembly]

Like the Thais, we know that the corruption in our countries is wrong. Unlike the Thais, we are able to stop our politicians plundering our national assets for their own benefits to the equivalent tune of several metro lines. None of our politicians has amassed personal wealth in the billions while in office.

SC

They tend to collect their thrupenny bits from their corporate masters afterwards. The Private Eye is full of reports, but no one in the west seems to want to take notice.

John Major and the Carlyle Group is just one example that springs to mind.

Edited February 12, 2013 by Trembly

[NanLaew]

Like the Thais, we know that the corruption in our countries is wrong. Unlike the Thais, we are able to stop our politicians plundering our national assets for their own benefits to the equivalent tune of several metro lines. None of our politicians has amassed personal wealth in the billions while in office.

SC

Not quite. In the UK, we let the bankers plunder the national assets and anyone associated with any financial 'regulatory authority' who has the right school tie and can do a fancy handshake gets a peerage.

Meanwhile, back in Thailand....

[NanLaew]

Like the Thais, we know that the corruption in our countries is wrong. Unlike the Thais, we are able to stop our politicians plundering our national assets for their own benefits to the equivalent tune of several metro lines. None of our politicians has amassed personal wealth in the billions while in office.

SC

They tend to collect their thrupenny bits from their corporate masters afterwards. The Private Eye is full of reports, but no one in the west seems to want to take notice.

John Major and the Carlyle Group is just one example that springs to mind.

OMG! Maybe the Thai really aspire to be like us after all?

[NanLaew]

So, without wandering off in to the distinctly non-Thai hinterlands of western corporate greed and western government malfeasance that facilitates their legally marginal endeavours, does the average Thai on the street really want to stop the graft and corruption that enables certain social strata to flaunt laws and make millions. Or does the average Thai on the street just want to be able to ride on the same gravy train as the aforementioned upper classes for their own personal, short-term financial benefit?

[kaorop]

The most interesting thing about this topic is.............

Farangs in denial.........

In denial that the same level of corruption is endemic in the West, vast contracts being awarded via the Old Boys network, jobs, political patronage, ( just look at the US political system ), pork barrel vote buying, serial bribery of the electorates every few years based upon writing cheques that the unborn will need to honour.............

Nepotism, police corruption in many ways, taking kickbacks from the criminals, selling information, protecting their own, blackmailing politicians, white collar fraud on a massive scale ( Enron for example, among many ), judicial bribery......almost unspoken but I can guarantee you that every ex-cop on this forum knows a bent judge.

In fact it's not been that long since just about every malady you can point out in Thailand occurred in the West, including literal vote buying, fuedal domination of the poor and working class.....what do you think the labour movements were all about? The rise of Trade Unionism? It was a battle to establish the rights of the poor to basic human rights.

The Poor Houses are still within living memory, the Magdalene system was only abolished in 1996, and I bet plenty of members here can remember the starvation of the Great Depression, if not personally, their parents will have told them all about it.

............and yet, just when the Trade Union movements managed to establish what they were seeking, they were taken over by megalomaniacs like Arthur Scargill and the infamous Jimmy Hoffa. Orwell was right, " All Pigs Are Equal, Some Are More Equal Than Others ". Pigs at the trough, sucking up vast amounts of patronage at the cost of the membership.

I could list you 50 examples right now of endemic corruption in the West, I bet you could too.......at least in Thailand there's a brutal honesty about it..........and if we are being honest, we know that we're in a Glass House throwing stones. Our countries are just as corrupt, but most of us are too blind to see it.

Corruption is part of human nature.......the only thing unusual about it in Thailand compared to the West is that it's more in your face.

It's as simple as that.

Yes corruption exists everywhere, no one would deny that.

But how often do those that get exposed here, face actual real jail time and loss of assets as punishment?

there in lies one difference

there are real consequences faced by those in the 'west' who are charged and convicted,

would you agree with that?

[rct99q]

Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Enron, James Dimon (jpmorgan), world com, merril lynch, citigroup, bears stern, quinn group (ireland), anglo irish, barclays, news of the world, silvio berlusconi, berni madoff, ken lay (died), wells fargo, alan greenspan, sean fitzpatrick, betrie ahern, brian cowen, angela merkel....

The list goes on and on and on of people who have never been charged and there in lies the difference in the West you will never be charged and convicted of a crime....here you at least get to read all the juicy gossip in the news.

with one exception.....bernie is getting his just desserts......

[mauGR1]

Well said theblether.

Yep, IMHO it's the same everywhere, but different

[Trembly]

Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac, Enron, James Dimon (jpmorgan), world com, merril lynch, citigroup, bears stern, quinn group (ireland), anglo irish, barclays, news of the world, silvio berlusconi, berni madoff, ken lay (died), wells fargo, alan greenspan, sean fitzpatrick, betrie ahern, brian cowen, angela merkel....

The list goes on and on and on of people who have never been charged and there in lies the difference in the West you will never be charged and convicted of a crime....here you at least get to read all the juicy gossip in the news.

with one exception.....bernie is getting his just desserts......

Not to mention that spiv, Blair.

If anyone is in doubt I challenge them to pick up one or three copies of The Private Eye and then see if they think that the west convicts their corrupt politicians and lacks a network of patronage that "subtly" games the system.

Bernie was just an outsider who found an open window and gatecrashed the party while the rest were too busy filling themselves up to notice or care.

It's a big club, and you ain't in it. The only difference is that in Thailand it's still an open club with a cover charge and super expensive drinks rather than a private members club with heavy security.

Edited February 13, 2013 by Trembly