Thailand's Culture Of Relationships?

[bangkokburning]

Pure tripe.

Apologist.

That is the way it is and that makes it correct.

Absolute rubbish.

Man was born with unalienable rights. Every day, in every nation is a struggle to retain these natural rights.

When man accepts any less than his born right to be free he need look no further than himself as to his captor.

We exchange freedom to live in civilization and societies. We should derive benefit not burden.

★ We (should) rail against the corruption in the west as well. Westerners I will guarantee are even more angry and bitter at their corrupt practices and institutions.

The world is entering another dark age, hold on to your panties. They gonna get dirty..

Edited February 13, 2013 by bangkokburning

[wayned]

So, without wandering off in to the distinctly non-Thai hinterlands of western corporate greed and western government malfeasance that facilitates their legally marginal endeavours, does the average Thai on the street really want to stop the graft and corruption that enables certain social strata to flaunt laws and make millions. Or does the average Thai on the street just want to be able to ride on the same gravy train as the aforementioned upper classes for their own personal, short-term financial benefit?

I live in a rural farm area and when I mention corruption or illegal activities by the locals, I am usually met with a very uncomfortable "chuckle". They don't want to discuss it and from what I can gather they have no desire to change. "Mai Pen Rai", such is life, and I see their children continuing to accept the status quo with no desire for change.

[Berkshire]

That is the way it is and that makes it correct.

Absolute rubbish.

I don't think anyone is saying that. More like "the pot calling the kettle black."

Edited February 13, 2013 by Berkshire

[NanLaew]

Pure tripe.

Apologist.

That is the way it is and that makes it correct.

Absolute rubbish.

Man was born with unalienable rights. Every day, in every nation is a struggle to retain these natural rights.

When man accepts any less than his born right to be free he need look no further than himself as to his captor.

We exchange freedom to live in civilization and societies. We should derive benefit not burden.

★ We (should) rail against the corruption in the west as well. Westerners I will guarantee are even more angry and bitter at their corrupt practices and institutions.

The world is entering another dark age, hold on to your panties. They gonna get dirty..

I didn't see where either the writer of the first letter or the respondent said that corruption was acceptable or condoned it. I do see where they are trying to offer a reason why it continues to be a fact of life in LOS. I fail to see where an alien in Thailand, resident or otherwise, should consider themselves as so influential and important that they can change it. But still they rail against something that is so deeply rooted as to be acceptable in the Thai culture. Farting against thunder as my late father liked to say.

[NanLaew]

So, without wandering off in to the distinctly non-Thai hinterlands of western corporate greed and western government malfeasance that facilitates their legally marginal endeavours, does the average Thai on the street really want to stop the graft and corruption that enables certain social strata to flaunt laws and make millions. Or does the average Thai on the street just want to be able to ride on the same gravy train as the aforementioned upper classes for their own personal, short-term financial benefit?

I live in a rural farm area and when I mention corruption or illegal activities by the locals, I am usually met with a very uncomfortable "chuckle". They don't want to discuss it and from what I can gather they have no desire to change. "Mai Pen Rai", such is life, and I see their children continuing to accept the status quo with no desire for change.

When the Thai's themselves manage to successfully apprehend, charge, prosecute and incarcerate one of their own popular, rich, connected, protected enablers and benefactors of corruption, and importantly they lose all their wealth and status, then the penny may drop on just how unacceptable the whole thing is. There's a lot of credence laid in merit making to ensure an even better 'next life'. All one needs to do if caught doing wrong in the present life (after paying off agrieved parties), is to rent some monks, hand over gobs of cash to the local poor, enter the temple for a token period and carry on feeding at the trough in the present life and stick two fingers up at the next. However, if they were immediately stripped of all their assets and wealth (and face) in the present life and be seen having to make real merit just to stay alive in the present life.... I know... it aint gonna happen.

[wayned]

Agree 100%, if it ever does I won't be around to see it! But I must admit I have enabled it over the last 15 years. I used to drive roundtrip from Nakhon Sawan to Samui at least once a month. I was stopped for speeding, which I was, almost every time. If It happened in my home country I would have had my liscense revoked and would have never been able to drive legally again. Here I paid the 100 baht tea money. I guess that I have "joined the club"!

Edited February 13, 2013 by wayned

[jocko]

Agree 100%, if it ever does I won't be around to see it! But I must admit I have enabled it over the last 15 years. I used to drive roundtrip from Nakhon Sawan to Samui at least once a month. I was stopped for speeding, which I was, almost every time. If It happened in my home country I would have had my liscense revoked and would have never been able to drive legally again. Here I paid the 100 baht tea money. I guess that I have "joined the club"!

When in Rome .

How many of us have not joined I wonder for small problems and making the path for one thing and another a bit smoother

Most Thais just shrug there shoulders when you mention corruption it just a part of life in many countries and its there for all to see.

As other posters have pointed out corruption has many forms even today's BBC news had a story about India buying Italian helicopter and it sounds like there was some card tricks going on under the counter.

[theblether]

Pure tripe.

Apologist.

That is the way it is and that makes it correct.

Absolute rubbish.

Man was born with unalienable rights. Every day, in every nation is a struggle to retain these natural rights.

When man accepts any less than his born right to be free he need look no further than himself as to his captor.

We exchange freedom to live in civilization and societies. We should derive benefit not burden.

★ We (should) rail against the corruption in the west as well. Westerners I will guarantee are even more angry and bitter at their corrupt practices and institutions.

The world is entering another dark age, hold on to your panties. They gonna get dirty..

What are you talking about?

[maxme]

Pure tripe.

Apologist.

That is the way it is and that makes it correct.

Absolute rubbish.

Man was born with unalienable rights. Every day, in every nation is a struggle to retain these natural rights.

When man accepts any less than his born right to be free he need look no further than himself as to his captor.

We exchange freedom to live in civilization and societies. We should derive benefit not burden.

★ We (should) rail against the corruption in the west as well. Westerners I will guarantee are even more angry and bitter at their corrupt practices and institutions.

The world is entering another dark age, hold on to your panties. They gonna get dirty..

What are you talking about?

I think we will soon hit a debate about who will know this the best, the expats or the people on tourist-visa. To be honest to say it's the same as back in the west is actually quite naive. Despite the corruption back home, we have something called social welfare... Thailand hasn´t reached that milestone yet and probably won't for at least 30 years. The corrpution is so entangled in the daily life of the Thais, it´s gonna require more than a miracle to untangle it.

[NanLaew]

Agree 100%, if it ever does I won't be around to see it! But I must admit I have enabled it over the last 15 years. I used to drive roundtrip from Nakhon Sawan to Samui at least once a month. I was stopped for speeding, which I was, almost every time. If It happened in my home country I would have had my liscense revoked and would have never been able to drive legally again. Here I paid the 100 baht tea money. I guess that I have "joined the club"!

When in Rome .

How many of us have not joined I wonder for small problems and making the path for one thing and another a bit smoother

Most Thais just shrug there shoulders when you mention corruption it just a part of life in many countries and its there for all to see.

As other posters have pointed out corruption has many forms even today's BBC news had a story about India buying Italian helicopter and it sounds like there was some card tricks going on under the counter.

For the sake of argument, I too have paid the traffic cops off on several occasions and twice I have left a 100 baht 'tip' with the nice lady at Udon Immigration; actions that seem to upset certain expats that have chosen to live here. In order to prevent this thread lurching from western corruption by westerners in the west, which is totally off-topic, to foreigners residing in Thailand contributing to 'tea money' collections, which is marginally on-topic but totally insignificant, lets try and keep this focused on our hosts and the postulation of the 'culture of relationships' as a cause and NOT an excuse. I agree that it will be nigh impossible for Thai's to kick the habit. Daily they see the benefits and regardless of how odious the methods of acquiring these benefits appear, they still want a piece if it.

[theblether]

Pure tripe.

Apologist.

That is the way it is and that makes it correct.

Absolute rubbish.

Man was born with unalienable rights. Every day, in every nation is a struggle to retain these natural rights.

When man accepts any less than his born right to be free he need look no further than himself as to his captor.

We exchange freedom to live in civilization and societies. We should derive benefit not burden.

★ We (should) rail against the corruption in the west as well. Westerners I will guarantee are even more angry and bitter at their corrupt practices and institutions.

The world is entering another dark age, hold on to your panties. They gonna get dirty..

What are you talking about?

I think we will soon hit a debate about who will know this the best, the expats or the people on tourist-visa. To be honest to say it's the same as back in the west is actually quite naive. Despite the corruption back home, we have something called social welfare... Thailand hasn´t reached that milestone yet and probably won't for at least 30 years. The corrpution is so entangled in the daily life of the Thais, it´s gonna require more than a miracle to untangle it.

It's got nothing to do with what visa you are on......and it's got nothing to do with social welfare, nothing. The issue is corruption, not the welfare state.

Too many "expats" in Thailand don't have any experience whatsoever of living in other diabolically corrupt countries and they are blinkered as to the reality of expat life for many. Go ask the FiFo brigade about their experiences in regards to corruption throughout the World. You would be staggered at some of the stories however!!

The Thais are rank amateurs compared to our Western White Collar colleagues.........the real cost of the LIBOR scandal alone would dwarf the total GDP of Thailand, lending rates being illegally manipulated across trillions of dollars of contracts on a weekly basis.

I can guarantee you I'm not the naive one here.

[theblether]

Agree 100%, if it ever does I won't be around to see it! But I must admit I have enabled it over the last 15 years. I used to drive roundtrip from Nakhon Sawan to Samui at least once a month. I was stopped for speeding, which I was, almost every time. If It happened in my home country I would have had my liscense revoked and would have never been able to drive legally again. Here I paid the 100 baht tea money. I guess that I have "joined the club"!

When in Rome .

How many of us have not joined I wonder for small problems and making the path for one thing and another a bit smoother

Most Thais just shrug there shoulders when you mention corruption it just a part of life in many countries and its there for all to see.

As other posters have pointed out corruption has many forms even today's BBC news had a story about India buying Italian helicopter and it sounds like there was some card tricks going on under the counter.

For the sake of argument, I too have paid the traffic cops off on several occasions and twice I have left a 100 baht 'tip' with the nice lady at Udon Immigration; actions that seem to upset certain expats that have chosen to live here. In order to prevent this thread lurching from western corruption by westerners in the west, which is totally off-topic, to foreigners residing in Thailand contributing to 'tea money' collections, which is marginally on-topic but totally insignificant, lets try and keep this focused on our hosts and the postulation of the 'culture of relationships' as a cause and NOT an excuse. I agree that it will be nigh impossible for Thai's to kick the habit. Daily they see the benefits and regardless of how odious the methods of acquiring these benefits appear, they still want a piece if it.

The Thais will kick the habit at roughly the same time the Brits kick the habit. You'll find that will be...........never.

[Colonel_Mustard]

The scale may be smaller but I would say corruption in Thailand is much more widespread and is endemic at all levels of life.

Sometimes it's a pain and sometimes it works in my favour. Sadly I can't say that it bothers me as much as it should these days.

[maxme]

Pure tripe.

Apologist.

That is the way it is and that makes it correct.

Absolute rubbish.

Man was born with unalienable rights. Every day, in every nation is a struggle to retain these natural rights.

When man accepts any less than his born right to be free he need look no further than himself as to his captor.

We exchange freedom to live in civilization and societies. We should derive benefit not burden.

★ We (should) rail against the corruption in the west as well. Westerners I will guarantee are even more angry and bitter at their corrupt practices and institutions.

The world is entering another dark age, hold on to your panties. They gonna get dirty..

What are you talking about?

I think we will soon hit a debate about who will know this the best, the expats or the people on tourist-visa. To be honest to say it's the same as back in the west is actually quite naive. Despite the corruption back home, we have something called social welfare... Thailand hasn´t reached that milestone yet and probably won't for at least 30 years. The corrpution is so entangled in the daily life of the Thais, it´s gonna require more than a miracle to untangle it.

It's got nothing to do with what visa you are on......and it's got nothing to do with social welfare, nothing. The issue is corruption, not the welfare state.

Too many "expats" in Thailand don't have any experience whatsoever of living in other diabolically corrupt countries and they are blinkered as to the reality of expat life for many. Go ask the FiFo brigade about their experiences in regards to corruption throughout the World. You would be staggered at some of the stories however!!

The Thais are rank amateurs compared to our Western White Collar colleagues.........the real cost of the LIBOR scandal alone would dwarf the total GDP of Thailand, lending rates being illegally manipulated across trillions of dollars of contracts on a weekly basis.

I can guarantee you I'm not the naive one here.

At least there is the common effort to strive for something better in the western countries while apathy is strife within this country, but we can all sit down and whine about how bad things are

Like it or not... things do get done in the west.

[theblether]

The most interesting thing about this topic is.............

Farangs in denial.........

In denial that the same level of corruption is endemic in the West, vast contracts being awarded via the Old Boys network, jobs, political patronage, ( just look at the US political system ), pork barrel vote buying, serial bribery of the electorates every few years based upon writing cheques that the unborn will need to honour.............

Nepotism, police corruption in many ways, taking kickbacks from the criminals, selling information, protecting their own, blackmailing politicians, white collar fraud on a massive scale ( Enron for example, among many ), judicial bribery......almost unspoken but I can guarantee you that every ex-cop on this forum knows a bent judge.

In fact it's not been that long since just about every malady you can point out in Thailand occurred in the West, including literal vote buying, fuedal domination of the poor and working class.....what do you think the labour movements were all about? The rise of Trade Unionism? It was a battle to establish the rights of the poor to basic human rights.

The Poor Houses are still within living memory, the Magdalene system was only abolished in 1996, and I bet plenty of members here can remember the starvation of the Great Depression, if not personally, their parents will have told them all about it.

............and yet, just when the Trade Union movements managed to establish what they were seeking, they were taken over by megalomaniacs like Arthur Scargill and the infamous Jimmy Hoffa. Orwell was right, " All Pigs Are Equal, Some Are More Equal Than Others ". Pigs at the trough, sucking up vast amounts of patronage at the cost of the membership.

I could list you 50 examples right now of endemic corruption in the West, I bet you could too.......at least in Thailand there's a brutal honesty about it..........and if we are being honest, we know that we're in a Glass House throwing stones. Our countries are just as corrupt, but most of us are too blind to see it.

Corruption is part of human nature.......the only thing unusual about it in Thailand compared to the West is that it's more in your face.

It's as simple as that.

Yes corruption exists everywhere, no one would deny that.

But how often do those that get exposed here, face actual real jail time and loss of assets as punishment?

there in lies one difference

there are real consequences faced by those in the 'west' who are charged and convicted,

would you agree with that?

No.......and those that do have the misfortune of being caught spend minimal time in cushy open jails. Corrupt MP's in the UK spent less than a year in jail, Conrad Black served very little time in jail in relation to the vast amount of money he extorted from his company.

I think you'll find that the vast majority of corrupt officials are never caught, and of the one's that are, early retirement is the preferred option to get rid of them. It's endemic.

@maxme

I don't think there's anything apathetic about corruption in Thailand, in fact I think people are highly enthusiastic about it.

Also, the fact that it exists to the extent that it does in the West confounds your argument.

Edited February 13, 2013 by theblether

[rene123]

So, without wandering off in to the distinctly non-Thai hinterlands of western corporate greed and western government malfeasance that facilitates their legally marginal endeavours, does the average Thai on the street really want to stop the graft and corruption that enables certain social strata to flaunt laws and make millions. Or does the average Thai on the street just want to be able to ride on the same gravy train as the aforementioned upper classes for their own personal, short-term financial benefit?

When it comes to money then ANYBODY in EVERY country is going to try and get the best deal for themselves in any way possible. If it means pulling a few strings or bribing the odd person then Thailand does not have the monopoly on that.

[NanLaew]

The most interesting thing about this topic is.............

Farangs in denial.........

In denial that the same level of corruption is endemic in the West, vast contracts being awarded via the Old Boys network, jobs, political patronage, ( just look at the US political system ), pork barrel vote buying, serial bribery of the electorates every few years based upon writing cheques that the unborn will need to honour.............

Nepotism, police corruption in many ways, taking kickbacks from the criminals, selling information, protecting their own, blackmailing politicians, white collar fraud on a massive scale ( Enron for example, among many ), judicial bribery......almost unspoken but I can guarantee you that every ex-cop on this forum knows a bent judge.

In fact it's not been that long since just about every malady you can point out in Thailand occurred in the West, including literal vote buying, fuedal domination of the poor and working class.....what do you think the labour movements were all about? The rise of Trade Unionism? It was a battle to establish the rights of the poor to basic human rights.

The Poor Houses are still within living memory, the Magdalene system was only abolished in 1996, and I bet plenty of members here can remember the starvation of the Great Depression, if not personally, their parents will have told them all about it.

............and yet, just when the Trade Union movements managed to establish what they were seeking, they were taken over by megalomaniacs like Arthur Scargill and the infamous Jimmy Hoffa. Orwell was right, " All Pigs Are Equal, Some Are More Equal Than Others ". Pigs at the trough, sucking up vast amounts of patronage at the cost of the membership.

I could list you 50 examples right now of endemic corruption in the West, I bet you could too.......at least in Thailand there's a brutal honesty about it..........and if we are being honest, we know that we're in a Glass House throwing stones. Our countries are just as corrupt, but most of us are too blind to see it.

Corruption is part of human nature.......the only thing unusual about it in Thailand compared to the West is that it's more in your face.

It's as simple as that.

Yes corruption exists everywhere, no one would deny that.

But how often do those that get exposed here, face actual real jail time and loss of assets as punishment?

there in lies one difference

there are real consequences faced by those in the 'west' who are charged and convicted,

would you agree with that?

No.......and those that do have the misfortune of being caught spend minimal time in cushy open jails. Corrupt MP's in the UK spent less than a year in jail, Conrad Black served very little time in jail in relation to the vast amount of money he extorted from his company.

I think you'll find that the vast majority of corrupt officials are never caught, and of the one's that are, early retirement is the preferred option to get rid of them. It's endemic.

@maxme

I don't think there's anything apathetic about corruption in Thailand, in fact I think people are highly enthusiastic about it.

Also, the fact that it exists to the extent that it does in the West confounds your argument.

Why does the fact that there is unreported corruption in high-places in the west feature in a discussion about what encourages the endemic corruption in Thailand?

The Thais will kick the habit at roughly the same time the Brits kick the habit. You'll find that will be...........never.

Bit of a stretch to think that the average Thai punter bunging under the table at the local Amphur's office or traffic cop has just checked that there's major, unreported malfeasance still going on in say Scunthorpe or New Orleans and thus feels justified.

Yes, let's agree that corruption isn't unique to Thailand. But at the same time, let's agree that the average punter in Scunthorpe can't pay off a local official to avoid paying Council Tax or the average Joe in Louisiana can't pass a few bills over to the traffic cop and make the speeding ticket go away.

How earnest is the average Thai about improving things? I would consider that across all social strata, the official person that the average Thai would expect to encounter on a day-to-day basis is the lowly cop. Not everyone hangs out with industrialists, CEO's, government ministers, hi-so's, movie stars and millionaires every day. The average Thai encounters the police either through some error of judgement on their own part, committing a crime, being a victim of a crime or requiring something simple such as proof they have lost their ID card or passport. If they have committed a crime, the cop invariably can make the whole thing go away for a price. In the same way, the cops can also request that the victim of a crime pay them money to do their job and pursue a criminal; something that they are paid to do anyway. Police generally only do their job when the price is right as well as NOT doing their job when the price is right!

I think that Thailand's corruption that is enabled through this 'culture of relationships' would take a major hit if the police command, management and structure was more akin to what a western police force is. Total reform and restructuring required. Now, since the police in Thailand have historically been treated politically as a counterbalance to the strong influence of the Thai military in local and national government and not primarily as policemen, then I can agree that there's a certain 'aint gonna happen' aspect of any change happening any time soon.

Edited February 14, 2013 by NanLaew

[muythai2013]

do we even have to question corruption in thailand, am i to understand that people still don't see it.

dishonesty is like a religion here.

[GuestHouse]

The OP, and the author of the letter, seem to have slept through their political science 101 class - had they not slept they would have more accurately identified the root cause of what they call Thailand's culture of relationships as Neopatrimonialism.

Though I would urge extreme caution if they or anyone else wishes to discuss the roots and promotion of Neopatrimonialism in Thai culture.

In their rush to adopt the argument of moral cowardice 'a problem exists so its best to accept it' they missed the fact that we do not need foreigners to bemoan the state of Thai society, or indeed try to change it. Thais themselves are doing this already.

And of course the OP need not 'despair' over foreigners trying to change Thailand - every foreigner that lives in Thailand changes Thailand.

Some choose to do so for the better.

Some choose to b1tch about others expressing opinions - go figure!

[NanLaew]

The OP, and the author of the letter, seem to have slept through their political science 101 class - had they not slept they would have more accurately identified the root cause of what they call Thailand's culture of relationships as Neopatrimonialism.

Though I would urge extreme caution if they or anyone else wishes to discuss the roots and promotion of Neopatrimonialism in Thai culture.

In their rush to adopt the argument of moral cowardice 'a problem exists so its best to accept it' they missed the fact that we do not need foreigners to bemoan the state of Thai society, or indeed try to change it. Thais themselves are doing this already.

And of course the OP need not 'despair' over foreigners trying to change Thailand - every foreigner that lives in Thailand changes Thailand.

Some choose to do so for the better.

Some choose to b1tch about others expressing opinions - go figure!

If I ever awarded a 'like' in my life, GH's post would be a prime recipient. Even if it is only for replacing a 3 word sentence with a 9 sylable word!

Many thanks,

NL

[theblether]

Sorry Nanlaew..........wrong. I know people who are paying council officials to make tax bills go away. I also know more than one person that has received unduly lenient sentencing from the courts after passing a brown envelope.

I know people who have made a singular phone call to their police friends to have tickets disappear.......if you knew how corrupt the UK is you would be staggered.

However I reckon it would be impossible to convince you otherwise so we'll just need to agree to disagree.

[NanLaew]

Sorry Nanlaew..........wrong. I know people who are paying council officials to make tax bills go away. I also know more than one person that has received unduly lenient sentencing from the courts after passing a brown envelope.

I know people who have made a singular phone call to their police friends to have tickets disappear.......if you knew how corrupt the UK is you would be staggered.

However I reckon it would be impossible to convince you otherwise so we'll just need to agree to disagree.

Ah... I see that you know some Freemasons as well.

We can agree to beg to differ on this one. My father was a career policeman in Scotland, never did get into the secret handshake brigade and happily retired after 35 years service as a Constable. That was around the time I forsook the pleasures of Scottish life and took my guileless self to foreign lands... and never really came back. You have done business/are still doing business in Scotland but just witnessing the ongoing 'interest' in a certain noisome American's investment in a golf links outside Aberdeen and the incredibly sloping shoulders of 'he who would want to be King' on this matter, I am not exactly ignorant to the fact that gobs of money have/still are changing hands on that ugly affair.

So, do you think that the UK (or Scotland) ever experienced a period of Neopatrimonialism (thanks again GH) in its spotted history? Is it possible that the UK (and US and EU) all practice some very refined derivative of Neopatrimonialism? Otherwise, I still don't see parallels between Thailand's open embrace of corruption versus what you have personally witnessed on our home shores. I mean Chris Huhne isn't being cut any slack on his points-dodging circus is he now? Then again, maybe he never quite mastered the signs.

[Trembly]

Sorry Nanlaew..........wrong. I know people who are paying council officials to make tax bills go away. I also know more than one person that has received unduly lenient sentencing from the courts after passing a brown envelope.

I know people who have made a singular phone call to their police friends to have tickets disappear.......if you knew how corrupt the UK is you would be staggered.

However I reckon it would be impossible to convince you otherwise so we'll just need to agree to disagree.

Ah... I see that you know some Freemasons as well.

We can agree to beg to differ on this one. My father was a career policeman in Scotland, never did get into the secret handshake brigade and happily retired after 35 years service as a Constable. That was around the time I forsook the pleasures of Scottish life and took my guileless self to foreign lands... and never really came back. You have done business/are still doing business in Scotland but just witnessing the ongoing 'interest' in a certain noisome American's investment in a golf links outside Aberdeen and the incredibly sloping shoulders of 'he who would want to be King' on this matter, I am not exactly ignorant to the fact that gobs of money have/still are changing hands on that ugly affair.

So, do you think that the UK (or Scotland) ever experienced a period of Neopatrimonialism (thanks again GH) in its spotted history? Is it possible that the UK (and US and EU) all practice some very refined derivative of Neopatrimonialism? Otherwise, I still don't see parallels between Thailand's open embrace of corruption versus what you have personally witnessed on our home shores. I mean Chris Huhne isn't being cut any slack on his points-dodging circus is he now? Then again, maybe he never quite mastered the signs.

The difference between corruption in Thailand and corruption in the west is that Thailand what you see is pretty much what you get, whereas politics in the west is like a gladiator fight for an audience; the real action that the audience should be following occurs in the offices of the circus owners, not the gladiators fighting for their prizes / lives.

Edited February 15, 2013 by Trembly

[theblether]

Sorry Nanlaew..........wrong. I know people who are paying council officials to make tax bills go away. I also know more than one person that has received unduly lenient sentencing from the courts after passing a brown envelope.

I know people who have made a singular phone call to their police friends to have tickets disappear.......if you knew how corrupt the UK is you would be staggered.

However I reckon it would be impossible to convince you otherwise so we'll just need to agree to disagree.

Ah... I see that you know some Freemasons as well.

We can agree to beg to differ on this one. My father was a career policeman in Scotland, never did get into the secret handshake brigade and happily retired after 35 years service as a Constable. That was around the time I forsook the pleasures of Scottish life and took my guileless self to foreign lands... and never really came back. You have done business/are still doing business in Scotland but just witnessing the ongoing 'interest' in a certain noisome American's investment in a golf links outside Aberdeen and the incredibly sloping shoulders of 'he who would want to be King' on this matter, I am not exactly ignorant to the fact that gobs of money have/still are changing hands on that ugly affair.

So, do you think that the UK (or Scotland) ever experienced a period of Neopatrimonialism (thanks again GH) in its spotted history? Is it possible that the UK (and US and EU) all practice some very refined derivative of Neopatrimonialism? Otherwise, I still don't see parallels between Thailand's open embrace of corruption versus what you have personally witnessed on our home shores. I mean Chris Huhne isn't being cut any slack on his points-dodging circus is he now? Then again, maybe he never quite mastered the signs.

Just for a change I'm speechless.

[rene123]

As far as corruption goes in the west vs Thailand, it is just more obvious in Thailand because we see it at the lowest levels. It is probably worse in North America (which I'm most familiar with) but it only goes on at the highest levels. Occasionally, someone goes too far and it hits the headlines. The American banking crash a few years ago is a perfect example. The greedy just got a little TOO greedy and thought they could get away with it forever. Unfortunately, they took down the whole world of financiers with them at the same time.

[Berkshire]

As far as corruption goes in the west vs Thailand, it is just more obvious in Thailand because we see it at the lowest levels. It is probably worse in North America (which I'm most familiar with) but it only goes on at the highest levels. Occasionally, someone goes too far and it hits the headlines. The American banking crash a few years ago is a perfect example. The greedy just got a little TOO greedy and thought they could get away with it forever. Unfortunately, they took down the whole world of financiers with them at the same time.

This is absolutely dead-on. I'm constantly amazed when farangs in Thailand get on their high horse to condemn corruption in Thailand (which is indeed a problem), but speak as if their homelands are pristine and free of corruption. They can't be that stupid. The US financial crisis of 2008 was just an example of the massive corruption at the highest levels, where a great many of the elite, both in government and industry, were complicit. To date, those responsible have not been brought to account. The level of sophistication involved confounds most. Basically, the sheeps (i.e., public at large) had no idea they were being fleeced to the tune of several hundred billion dollars. So if you speak in strictly dollar terms, you are correct--corruption in the west far exceeds Thailand.

[NanLaew]

This thread is labeled 'Thailand's Culture of Relationships', not Wall Street's Culture of Embezzlement, or America's Culture of Corporate Greed. It's as if mentioning that we are just as culpable in the west obviates any need to discuss the issue as it affects us, our friends and families in the country where most members may have chosen to live, work, invest or retire.

Yes, corruption exists everywhere but apart from theblether knowing a person fiddling their UK council taxes and another paying off the police for traffic tickets, nobody has come up with anything that is so pervasive, daily, widespread and common as the fiddles that every level of Thai society pulls on each other either just to get things done properly or to get things done improperly.

I was hoping for a more Thai- oriented discourse (since it is THAIVISA after all) but GuestHouse pretty much nailed it. Unfortunately, my further education leant towards earth sciences rather the social sciences so I missed out on the nuances of Neopatrimonialism, which maybe cannot be safely discussed here without overworking the mods.

[theblether]

As far as I'm concerned it's a Thai bashing thread, and it has been undone by farangs saying it's not exclusive to Thailand.

[maxme]

The most interesting thing about this topic is.............

Farangs in denial.........

In denial that the same level of corruption is endemic in the West, vast contracts being awarded via the Old Boys network, jobs, political patronage, ( just look at the US political system ), pork barrel vote buying, serial bribery of the electorates every few years based upon writing cheques that the unborn will need to honour.............

Nepotism, police corruption in many ways, taking kickbacks from the criminals, selling information, protecting their own, blackmailing politicians, white collar fraud on a massive scale ( Enron for example, among many ), judicial bribery......almost unspoken but I can guarantee you that every ex-cop on this forum knows a bent judge.

In fact it's not been that long since just about every malady you can point out in Thailand occurred in the West, including literal vote buying, fuedal domination of the poor and working class.....what do you think the labour movements were all about? The rise of Trade Unionism? It was a battle to establish the rights of the poor to basic human rights.

The Poor Houses are still within living memory, the Magdalene system was only abolished in 1996, and I bet plenty of members here can remember the starvation of the Great Depression, if not personally, their parents will have told them all about it.

............and yet, just when the Trade Union movements managed to establish what they were seeking, they were taken over by megalomaniacs like Arthur Scargill and the infamous Jimmy Hoffa. Orwell was right, " All Pigs Are Equal, Some Are More Equal Than Others ". Pigs at the trough, sucking up vast amounts of patronage at the cost of the membership.

I could list you 50 examples right now of endemic corruption in the West, I bet you could too.......at least in Thailand there's a brutal honesty about it..........and if we are being honest, we know that we're in a Glass House throwing stones. Our countries are just as corrupt, but most of us are too blind to see it.

Corruption is part of human nature.......the only thing unusual about it in Thailand compared to the West is that it's more in your face.

It's as simple as that.

Yes corruption exists everywhere, no one would deny that.

But how often do those that get exposed here, face actual real jail time and loss of assets as punishment?

there in lies one difference

there are real consequences faced by those in the 'west' who are charged and convicted,

would you agree with that?

No.......and those that do have the misfortune of being caught spend minimal time in cushy open jails. Corrupt MP's in the UK spent less than a year in jail, Conrad Black served very little time in jail in relation to the vast amount of money he extorted from his company.

I think you'll find that the vast majority of corrupt officials are never caught, and of the one's that are, early retirement is the preferred option to get rid of them. It's endemic.

@maxme

I don't think there's anything apathetic about corruption in Thailand, in fact I think people are highly enthusiastic about it.

Also, the fact that it exists to the extent that it does in the West confounds your argument.

Your basing your experience from the west with a country you don't even live in. I'm not saying you don't know anything I just say you are not here dealing with it on a regular basis, therefore your conclusion is incomplete.

I think I explained quite clearly why it is different but if you want to prove it's otherwise, then go ahead

[maxme]

As far as I'm concerned it's a Thai bashing thread, and it has been undone by farangs saying it's not exclusive to Thailand.

There are folks here that can stand criticism and deliver some as well and there are those who just go for the likes.