Usefruct Done!

[jamescollister]

People lose money and are taken for a ride, if I stop one fool then it's worth it. Jim

75 baht Jim....... 75 baht is all it costs nothing more, no bungs bribes or lawyers, your crusade to save 75 baht is noble but a bit over the top I reckon.....

Would be a bit more if the Director General disposes of the land and house, as he can, by law. Jim Edited February 19, 2013 by jamescollister

[jamescollister]

dinga

You could be a toilet cleaner in Sydney for all I know and never have been in Thailand in your life. I live here and you can Google my name and Thailand, I will come up.

Think I know more about the place than an avatar [alias] of a toilet cleaner, than you.

Please post if I am wrong and you have a real name and can say true things, because you know, as you live and work here.

Otherwise don't bother, plenty of Walter Mitty's on the site already. Jim

[LennyW]

I think it is pretty pointless continuing to discuss this as you seem to believe you are the only person that knows what he is talking about, myself Jean and many others do not agree with you on this topic, the only important people in this are the land office officials as they are the subject matter experts on this topic and they too appear to disagree with you. I said way back that we would have to agree to disagree on this subject and I think we should do just that, you can rest assured though that from my point of view I am very happy and sleep a bit easier now it is done....look after yourself Jim and I wish you continued good luck with the trees

Let me make this simple, did you buy land through a Thai national for your use. If so you have contravened the land code, that's it. Jim

Let me make this simple for you Jim, Usufructs are not about buying land, you are simply paying an upfront rent for a piece of land for a period of time, which upon your demise or termination of the contract said piece of land will revert to the control of the Thai owner.

AN USUFRUCT IS NOT SELLING LAND TO A FOREIGNER - IT MERELY ALLOWS THE FOREIGNER USE FOR A DETERMINED TIME, THE OUTRIGHT POSESSION OF THE LAND REMAINS WITH THE THAI NATIONAL DURING YOUR TIME AS A TENNANT AND AFTER YOU ARE GONE.

It is just a glorified rental contract, completely legal and above board.

So you are not getting a usufruct, but leasing the land, for which purpose, not to mine, quarry or farm, but to build a house. Not a usufruct, right of habitation, you give money to a Thai national to buy land on your behalf, for your use you commit a crime. Simple and plain. Which parts off the law are you above. Jim

Which part of my post above did you nut comprehend?

The land is not being purchased by or for the foreigner - it remains in the possesion of the Thai national. I cant make it any clearer.

You still seem to have this mistaken belief that with an Usufruct you MUST mine, quarry or farm the land, this is NOT the case.

[mark131v]

People lose money and are taken for a ride, if I stop one fool then it's worth it. Jim

75 baht Jim....... 75 baht is all it costs nothing more, no bungs bribes or lawyers, your crusade to save 75 baht is noble but a bit over the top I reckon.....

Would be a bit more if the Director General disposes of the land and house, as he can, by law. Jim

Jim I keep on telling you that I think you are wrong I also think you are a little paranoid as well

if you can give any details of this happening I would be keen to hear but already we have heard of one guy on this thread who was given the right to stay in his home as part of a divorce settlement, another guy in another thread who wife passed on before him and his usefruct stood and he is able to stay on in their home till he dies, I personally know a guy who is still in his house after splitting with his long term girlfriend and last but not least myself, I am speaking from a position of personal knowledge as I have very recently done this and been assured by the Thai department responsible that it is now legal to stay in our marrital home for my lifetime.....

Then we have your opinion that says everybody else is wrong and you are the only person who is right, I disagree and for the price of 75 baht I have a little piece of mind.......

[dinga]

dinga

You could be a toilet cleaner in Sydney for all I know and never have been in Thailand in your life. I live here and you can Google my name and Thailand, I will come up.

Think I know more about the place than an avatar [alias] of a toilet cleaner, than you.

Please post if I am wrong and you have a real name and can say true things, because you know, as you live and work here.

Otherwise don't bother, plenty of Walter Mitty's on the site already. Jim

Don't see how this particularly matters, but am not a toilet cleaner and have never lived in Sydney. Have lived and worked in Thailand for nine years (business advisory, not teaching), just received PR - Thai wife and house, residence rights secured by Usufruct. My name is also not material - I'll post you a gross of Bex and perhaps we can all take a rest from your endless loop... Edited February 20, 2013 by dinga

[Carib]

dinga

You could be a toilet cleaner in Sydney for all I know and never have been in Thailand in your life. I live here and you can Google my name and Thailand, I will come up.

Think I know more about the place than an avatar [alias] of a toilet cleaner, than you.

Please post if I am wrong and you have a real name and can say true things, because you know, as you live and work here.

Otherwise don't bother, plenty of Walter Mitty's on the site already. Jim

Great, we have someone here who is on the Internet if you look for his name, woooow, therefore he must be right !.

What a ridiculous thing to post.

[CWMcMurray]

James .. You keep saying that as a Usfruct allows the foreigner to benefit from the fruits of the land, this is a contradiction as foreigner can not work the land without a work permit

But this does not seem to be any contradiction....

The Usfruct gives you the right to the fruits of the land, but if you actually want to work the land you would still have to go through the labor department to get a work permit

Similar to buying or leasing a car allows you the right to drive the car, but you can not legally drive the car on the roads unless it you have a driver's license

No law is broken if you do not have a license but buy a car, have it delivered to your home and then just let it sit in your drive way.

You would only be breaking the law if you drove it without a license

Also there have been cases stated by those with first hand and second knowledge of Usfructs being effective

Can you state even one case where a Usefruct was challenged by anyone and not held up in court in Thailand?

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[jamescollister]

James .. You keep saying that as a Usfruct allows the foreigner to benefit from the fruits of the land, this is a contradiction as foreigner can not work the land without a work permit

But this does not seem to be any contradiction....

The Usfruct gives you the right to the fruits of the land, but if you actually want to work the land you would still have to go through the labor department to get a work permit

Similar to buying or leasing a car allows you the right to drive the car, but you can not legally drive the car on the roads unless it you have a driver's license

No law is broken if you do not have a license but buy a car, have it delivered to your home and then just let it sit in your drive way.

You would only be breaking the law if you drove it without a license

Also there have been cases stated by those with first hand and second knowledge of Usfructs being effective

Can you state even one case where a Usefruct was challenged by anyone and not held up in court in Thailand?

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

Try buying a taxi, you don't have to pick up passengers, think not. Jim

[jamescollister]

dinga

You could be a toilet cleaner in Sydney for all I know and never have been in Thailand in your life. I live here and you can Google my name and Thailand, I will come up.

Think I know more about the place than an avatar [alias] of a toilet cleaner, than you.

Please post if I am wrong and you have a real name and can say true things, because you know, as you live and work here.

Otherwise don't bother, plenty of Walter Mitty's on the site already. Jim

Don't see how this particularly matters, but am not a toilet cleaner and have never lived in Sydney. Have lived and worked in Thailand for nine years (business advisory, not teaching), just received PR - Thai wife and house, residence rights secured by Usufruct. My name is also not material - I'll post you a gross of Bex and perhaps we can all take a rest from your endless loop...

Used to work in law enforcement, have a built in B/S meter and it's in the red.

Business adviser who doesn't want people to know his name, not normal.

Permanent.Resident.

Just out of curiosity, what type of work permit covers a business adviser. Business adviser would seem to infer self employed.

As to the rest of the thread, I have posted the laws that cover land possession, no one has posted anything to contradict those laws. So that's it from me. Jim

[CWMcMurray]

Not the same... But it's clear that you are one of those types who can not admit when your wrong or just like winding people up...

In either case... Just a waste of time arguing with you ... Believe what you like

Sent from my iPhone using ThaiVisa app

[dinga]

dinga

You could be a toilet cleaner in Sydney for all I know and never have been in Thailand in your life. I live here and you can Google my name and Thailand, I will come up.

Think I know more about the place than an avatar [alias] of a toilet cleaner, than you.

Please post if I am wrong and you have a real name and can say true things, because you know, as you live and work here.

Otherwise don't bother, plenty of Walter Mitty's on the site already. Jim

Don't see how this particularly matters, but am not a toilet cleaner and have never lived in Sydney. Have lived and worked in Thailand for nine years (business advisory, not teaching), just received PR - Thai wife and house, residence rights secured by Usufruct. My name is also not material - I'll post you a gross of Bex and perhaps we can all take a rest from your endless loop...

Used to work in law enforcement, SO DID I have a built in B/S meter and it's in the red. YOUR JUDGEMENT IS PLAINLY LACKING

Business adviser who doesn't want people to know his name, not normal. SURE IS - IF THERE IS A POSTER WHO ROUTINELY SPRUIKS ABOUT ILLEGALITY, CONSPIRACY ETCETCETC

Permanent.Resident. INDEED SO - CLASS OF 2008

Just out of curiosity, what type of work permit covers a business adviser. ONE SPONSORED BY MY EMPLOYER Business adviser would seem to infer self employed. INCORRECT AGAIN

As to the rest of the thread, I have posted the laws that cover land possession, no one has posted anything to contradict those laws. So that's it from me. Jim

See reply in CAPS. ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

[Gary A]

After many years here, it appears to me that a 30 year lease from anyone OTHER than a wife, and before you are married, is the safest way for a farang to have land and a house. Buying a condo in your own name BEFORE you are married is likely the most secure way to go. Regardless of how you try to manipulate controlling land or a house, it will likely be very dangerous to your financial security.

There are those who are sure that in case the marriage falls apart, that they are entitled to half the value of the marital property. Can anyone tell me first hand of anyone who ACTUALLY got half? There are some cases of the ex-wife volunteering and actually agreeing to a fair split but getting your half through the courts is nearly impossible. The civil court may indeed award you half, but try to get it. Having to sign a document saying that you have no financial interest in a property that you are paying for should be major tip off as to who owns and controls the property.

The bottom line here is the old saying that you should NEVER spend more than you can afford to walk away from. That is prudent advice. I have bought my Thai wife several properties, and I have signed the documents confirming that I have no financial interest in the properties. Yes, I CAN walk away, still have a roof over my head, a pickup truck to drive and I won't miss any meals.

A young man can make serious mistakes because he can always start over and earn more money. My working days are in the past. That means that I have to be extra careful with what little I have. Simply put, I can't afford to make serious mistakes.

[mark131v]

That is good to know Gary but what happens if your wife was to die tomorrow?

you could well be left in peace by the authorities or on the flip side you could be given a year to sell up and get out.....

If you have children they may inherit, what if they are too young and you where not recognized as the guardian or as is the case for many people there are children from previous marriages as well as the present one who maybe older etc etc....you get my point there are many what if's in life here and as you said your working days and chances to make more money may be in the past

I am lucky I am a young man who is lucky enough to make good money but that does not mean I bury my head in the sand and hope for the best I have spent twenty years in the military and burying your head in the sand and hoping for the best is a sure fire way for bad stuff to happen

The usefruct is not there to control or own land it is in our case solely to have the peace of mind that if something happens I know I have done everything I can to help with mine and my families future this is the point that Jim can't seem to get his head around!! I think there are very many people in the same position as myself and it really is a complete no-brainer for me

I know my wife and have absolutely zero concerns there, never say never and all that but we have been together since 2002 and if she had wanted to take me to the cleaners she had seven years to do it in the UK where she could have really had me by the short and curlies, if the marriage was to fail I feel certain we could reach an agreement and Thai law does indeed state 50/50 much as the rest of the civilized world does, I reckon if you was to divorce in the UK or much of the rest of the western world your average male may well come off worse financially than you would in Thailand

It is not about land ownership it is about having the ability to carry on living in the marital home for the length of my life barring divorce and changes in the law.,...it really is that simple and the government recognizes this right, it could all change tomorrow but I don't believe it will and everything done has been done legally and above board through the correct government department It really is not rocket science

Edited February 20, 2013 by mark131v

[Lazy Sod]

link to the sample form and a lot of useful information:

http://www.samuiforsale.com/other-miscellaneous/usufruct-agreement-sample.html

all i took was a copy of the translation of the standard Land Office usefruct agreement

Mark, there are 2 agreements at the link, did you only take the 2nd one to the Land Office?

[mark131v]

link to the sample form and a lot of useful information:

http://www.samuifors...ent-sample.html

all i took was a copy of the translation of the standard Land Office usefruct agreement

Mark, there are 2 agreements at the link, did you only take the 2nd one to the Land Office?

Yes mate the copy of the standard land office one with the Thai translation

[Lazy Sod]

Does anyone know if you can register the usufruct at the same time as registering the purchase/transfer? Wife is about to buy some land in Khon Kaen and I've gotta fly up to sign the husband declaration at the land office, so I'd like to do the usufruct at the same time in one trip. I think I've read somewhere that it may be better to wait a few months but I can't figure out why it would make any difference.

[Lazy Sod]

Thanks Mark. Does anyone know if you can register the usufruct at the same time as registering the purchase/transfer? Wife is about to buy some land in Khon Kaen and I've gotta fly up to sign the husband declaration at the land office, so I'd like to do the usufruct at the same time in one trip. I think I've read somewhere that it may be better to wait a few months but I can't figure out why it would make any difference.

[jamescollister]

Thanks Mark. Does anyone know if you can register the usufruct at the same time as registering the purchase/transfer? Wife is about to buy some land in Khon Kaen and I've gotta fly up to sign the husband declaration at the land office, so I'd like to do the usufruct at the same time in one trip. I think I've read somewhere that it may be better to wait a few months but I can't figure out why it would make any difference.

Up to the land office, in some other threads land office has refused to allow usufructs between husband and wife. Depends on the boss at the office, it's his call. Jim

[dinga]

Does anyone know if you can register the usufruct at the same time as registering the purchase/transfer? Wife is about to buy some land in Khon Kaen and I've gotta fly up to sign the husband declaration at the land office, so I'd like to do the usufruct at the same time in one trip. I think I've read somewhere that it may be better to wait a few months but I can't figure out why it would make any difference.

Sure can register both at the same time - easily, at least at the Klaeng Land Office in Rayong (where I've done so twice in the past 3 years). Walked out with the Usufructs and appropriate endorsements on the Chanotes. Likewise can't imagine any benefit in waiting

[Gary A]

That is good to know Gary but what happens if your wife was to die tomorrow?

you could well be left in peace by the authorities or on the flip side you could be given a year to sell up and get out.....

If you have children they may inherit, what if they are too young and you where not recognized as the guardian or as is the case for many people there are children from previous marriages as well as the present one who maybe older etc etc....you get my point there are many what if's in life here and as you said your working days and chances to make more money may be in the past

I am lucky I am a young man who is lucky enough to make good money but that does not mean I bury my head in the sand and hope for the best I have spent twenty years in the military and burying your head in the sand and hoping for the best is a sure fire way for bad stuff to happen

The usefruct is not there to control or own land it is in our case solely to have the peace of mind that if something happens I know I have done everything I can to help with mine and my families future this is the point that Jim can't seem to get his head around!! I think there are very many people in the same position as myself and it really is a complete no-brainer for me

I know my wife and have absolutely zero concerns there, never say never and all that but we have been together since 2002 and if she had wanted to take me to the cleaners she had seven years to do it in the UK where she could have really had me by the short and curlies, if the marriage was to fail I feel certain we could reach an agreement and Thai law does indeed state 50/50 much as the rest of the civilized world does, I reckon if you was to divorce in the UK or much of the rest of the western world your average male may well come off worse financially than you would in Thailand

It is not about land ownership it is about having the ability to carry on living in the marital home for the length of my life barring divorce and changes in the law.,...it really is that simple and the government recognizes this right, it could all change tomorrow but I don't believe it will and everything done has been done legally and above board through the correct government department It really is not rocket science

If my wife were to die tomorrow, I would sell off personal possessions that I can't take to my condo. I do have a lot of toys such as a small four wheel drive tractor and implements plus welders and power tools. As far as the house, no way would I want to live there alone out in the boonies. Her family would be free to split up the real estate. They could use the money much more than myself.

[mark131v]

Good for you mate heres hoping it's never put to the test for either of us....