Thais Score Lowest In T O E F L

[mrfill]

Using the totally unscientific method of going there recently and trying to communicate, I discovered the following:

Thailand - English rare outside tourist centres. Even when the person does have some knowledge of English they will refuse to use it, possibly for fear of making a mistake and losing face. Desire to learn English low.

Lao - Slightly more English than Thailand outside tourist areas. Natives willing to try if they have any knowledge of English. Desire to learn English - low but higher than Thailand.

Cambodia - Similar to Lao except desire to learn English is a lot higher. Not unusual to be approached by a local just to chat if they hear an English accent.

Myanmar - Very basic English understood by many, particularly children. Happy to use English (even badly). Quite a surprise.

All based on recent experience travelling through these countries and not talking to the elite or particularly well educated. If you don't speak the local lingo, Cambodia and Myanmar are certainly easier than Lao or Thailand. Certainly over the last 15 years the situation in Thailand has got worse and attitudes far more insular.

[MisterE]

Through the medium of English this nation would benifit considerably in both knowledge and understanding and that is exactly what this and successive Governments before ,do not want. They shake in their designer shoes at the thought of and educated and adequately informed public. Raise the IQ of this nation by 10 % and the current forms of administaration and Governance are doomed.

It is not just arrogance or zenophobia that restrict and impairs the proliferation of English , it is fear in the lack of control of the population whom they currently feed a banquet of absolute bullshit on a daily basis and get away with it.

Hammer, nail, head! Well said, this is the true root of the problem. They do not want a meritocracy.

One thing Thailand could do to improve proficiency levels quickly is Romanize the Thai Language script, like Malaysia did with Malay. Of course, this will never happen, the Thai culture preservation hawks start crapping bricks sideways at the mere mention of it.

Edited February 28, 2013 by MisterE

[MisterE]

Many retirees from English speaking countries would embrace teaching if it was allowed.

There are between 3 to 6 million long term foreign residents (depending on source), yet they cannot be used to help teach.

Why do you think career driving lorries/building houses/running a business or whatever would enable one to TEACH English?

You make the same mistake that the Thais seem to make. A native ability to speak a language does not mean that one can teach that language in any meaningful sense.

At least they would be able to speak the language they are teaching. Becoming a good teacher in Thailand is on the job training for the most part. As I said in my previous post, some of the best teachers I have ever met in this country had no formal training in education when they started. They understood Thai culture and found out they had a knack for teaching. Some just have the gift, others like me have to work hard at it.

It really can not get any worse than it already is so what's the harm in trying?

[SiamKitt]

My daughter is in High school in Issan. If I'm with her when she's got English homework to do.. I will try simplify/explain the basics of the exercise.

Well how do you explain to the girl that the text-book she's working from is way,way to hard for her, & even has me reading the relevant page over & over to try make some eligible sense of the topic.

The Education Committee here seem to have no idea when it comes to allocating what 'level' of text book to issue to each class/year in the schools.

So the kids quickly get 'bogged-down', do not understand any of the relevant topics, & therefore do not learn anything from these books.

In no time at all the students are bored with learning English..& I for one can understand this.

I have taught English in a Thai high-school, & at the start of each lesson I'd call out "O.K...Open your text-books at page (whatever)".

Straight away a negative wave rolled it's way across the whole class, c/w moans & groans.

Having made my own exercises & printed sheets on the same 'topic of the day'..I held up a wad of photocopies & proudly stated..

"Or shall we work off these"..?? "YEAHHHH" was the enthusiastic reply.

O.K. more trees may have had to be felled to cater for the needs of that hungry photo-copier, but 47 kids learnt what they were supposed

to each day, & (I hope) enjoyed each English lesson with me. ( & yes, those text books stayed in their bags, & the school principal OK'd

my way of teaching them 'enjoyable English'.) KEEP IT SIMPLE FOR THEM & THEY MAY WELL LIKE LEARNING ENGLISH.

[MisterE]

"being a native english speaker alone does not automatically qualify anybody as an english language teacher. backpackers teaching for a short period - without having any qualification except being native english speakers - is worrying as well"

Totally agree. Some years back I worked in London as an IT consultant. My colleague, who is English, asked me when he should use 'effect' and 'affect'! So much for native speakers...

Try asking 1,000 Thai English teachers the same question and tell me if you get even 1 correct answer.

[MisterE]

My daughter is in High school in Issan. If I'm with her when she's got English homework to do.. I will try simplify/explain the basics of the exercise.

Well how do you explain to the girl that the text-book she's working from is way,way to hard for her, & even has me reading the relevant page over & over to try make some eligible sense of the topic.

The Education Committee here seem to have no idea when it comes to allocating what 'level' of text book to issue to each class/year in the schools.

So the kids quickly get 'bogged-down', do not understand any of the relevant topics, & therefore do not learn anything from these books.

In no time at all the students are bored with learning English..& I for one can understand this.

I have taught English in a Thai high-school, & at the start of each lesson I'd call out "O.K...Open your text-books at page (whatever)".

Straight away a negative wave rolled it's way across the whole class, c/w moans & groans.

Having made my own exercises & printed sheets on the same 'topic of the day'..I held up a wad of photocopies & proudly stated..

"Or shall we work off these"..?? "YEAHHHH" was the enthusiastic reply.

O.K. more trees may have had to be felled to cater for the needs of that hungry photo-copier, but 47 kids learnt what they were supposed

to each day, & (I hope) enjoyed each English lesson with me. ( & yes, those text books stayed in their bags, & the school principal OK'd

my way of teaching them 'enjoyable English'.) KEEP IT SIMPLE FOR THEM & THEY MAY WELL LIKE LEARNING ENGLISH.

The reason for this is that textbooks are not chosen based on what is best for the students. The decision is based on how big the kickback from the publishing distributors the school (director) will receive for placing the order. Profit and especially 'tea money' come first, everything else takes a back seat to that.

[MisterE]

"being a native english speaker alone does not automatically qualify anybody as an english language teacher. backpackers teaching for a short period - without having any qualification except being native english speakers - is worrying as well"

Totally agree. Some years back I worked in London as an IT consultant. My colleague, who is English, asked me when he should use 'effect' and 'affect'! So much for native speakers...

Try asking 1,000 Thai English teachers the same question and tell me if you get even 1 correct answer.

Also, Thais have much bigger problems than when to use "effect" or "affect" so, I'm sorry, your example is a very poor one. I understand the point you're trying to make but it would carry more weight if the English person couldn't say, "Hello my name is and last weekend I did..."

Edited February 28, 2013 by MisterE

[scorecard]

Sorry but I just don't believe the numbers quoted:

- Thai students - 450 - believable.

- Singapore students - 550 - not believable because teachers actually teach 99%

of all classes in English in singapore, students totally immersed in English from

day 1 at Kindergarten. The averageTOEFL score for Singapore students must be

a lot higher than 550 / the gap cannot be just 100, impossible.

I totally agree. English is an official language of Singapore and all the classes are in English. But having lived in Cambodia I'm willing to be the scores are also a little higher there as well (certainly higher than Thailand).

And I believe that Vietnam students are probably already well ahead of Thailand on English capability.

[lmaxv]

As an approved TOEFL testing center i am confused i thought the test was out of 120 a score of 30 can be achieved on all 4 elements , I believe TOEIC scores like this but i could be wrong

120 is the top score for the IBt, internet based, i.e. 30 for each of the 4 parts…r, l, s, & w. The 500, etc. scores are for the older PBt, paper based, which are being phased out. This article doesn't account for those who took the IBt.

I question why Thailand is comparing countries. The TOEFL is not meant to be used to compare

countries: too many differences to have any value. What does the article making the comparison accomplish that is in any way positive? Have English skills been a priority? Have TOEFL scores been a priority for Thai educators? Are there numerous student test-takers who plan on an education at an English speaking university that require a TOEFL score for admittance? If the answers are no, then what does this have to do with anything?

[MisterE]

I question why Thailand is comparing countries. The TOEFL is not meant to be used to compare countries: too many differences to have any value. What does the article making the comparison accomplish that is in any way positive? Have English skills been a priority? Have TOEFL scores been a priority for Thai educators? Are there numerous student test-takers who plan on an education at an English speaking university that require a TOEFL score for admittance? If the answers are no, then what does this have to do with anything?

As you know, the people taking this test are the elite. The best educated in Thailand who are headed to international programs at universities in countries where English is the first language. I think it's a metric that does have value and it correlates well with the results of other techniques used to measure English proficiency. Thailand is at the bottom of all of them.

[RaoulDuke]

When those teaching english can barely speak the language then it doesn't look bright. Those with kids being taught english by thais at school will know what I mean.

It is a simple fact that to teach English effectively the teach should be a native English speaker.

One can be fluent in a language without being a native speaker. My Japanese professor was a Mexican American. One of my English professors was Swiss, with the accent to match. They are both very knowledgeable and effective professors, and perhaps even more importantly, they actually know what it is like to have to LEARN to speak the language they are teaching, since acquiring a native language is in no way similar to learning a language at an older age. My Vietnamese professor was a native speaker, unfortunately, I could not understand some of the things she said, due to her thick accent. Your 'simple fact' is simply ignorant. While I would certainly agree that one has to spend some time immersed in a language to truly master it, it does not need to be their mother tongue.

Edited February 28, 2013 by RaoulDuke

[paulmw]

I know a lot of Cambodians who learn English. It's expensive for them. They made a choice. They want their expenses in time and money profitable. They are strong-willed. They understand that the tourists or farangs will never speak Khmer. VERY DIFFERENT in Thailand.

I get a little bit annoyed with Thai teachers who say the students can’t understand my West Country (UK) accent when they themselves have great difficulty stringing two sentences together in understandable English.

Or students who write their nicknames, Tle = Ton? Ple = Apple? Ploy = Puy? Then laugh how stupid the falang teacher is, when you use the Phonetic spelling sound (Phonetic alphabet) they have given to get them to try and change their ideas.

Until they understand there is a world outside of Thailand, they will never understand what the problem is.

You can take a horse to water but you can’t make it drink the water.

That about sums up the Thai educational system.

Cambodians and Laotian people understand that a good knowledge of English could mean the difference of putting food on the table or going hungry.

[maidu]

"being a native english speaker alone does not automatically qualify anybody as an english language teacher. backpackers teaching for a short period - without having any qualification except being native english speakers - is worrying as well"

Totally agree. Some years back I worked in London as an IT consultant. My colleague, who is English, asked me when he should use 'effect' and 'affect'! So much for native speakers...

It may not "automatically qualify" a person, but being a native English speaker is a big PLUS. Backpackers could prove to be as good or better than trained teachers. Teaching, like parenting, is more of an innate skill than a learned skill. Growing up, I went to 11 schools in 13 years in 6 countries, and I know first hand how terrible some tenured teachers can be. More often, the un-certified teachers did the better job of engaging and challenging students - than oldsters who couldn't be fired because of seniority and strong unions.

[metisdead]

A flaming post has been removed, keep posting in that nature and you can expect to receive a posting suspension.

[Benjie]

Sorry but I just don't believe the numbers quoted:

- Thai students - 450 - believable.

- Singapore students - 550 - not believable because teachers actually teach 99%

of all classes in English in singapore, students totally immersed in English from

day 1 at Kindergarten. The averageTOEFL score for Singapore students must be

a lot higher than 550 / the gap cannot be just 100, impossible.

It's a test of English as a foreign language, rather than testing people who speak English Natively?

[unclueng]

I am an American and a native speaker. By the way I don't know about "affect or effect" and never use "whom" except in a letter beginning "To whom it may concern". Until a Thai English teacher told me there are 12 tenses, I thought there were 3; yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

The purpose of language is communication. Unfortunately most of the children who finish high school in Thailand can't communicate in English. However, they do know grammar and structure.

I have been helping at the primary school near my home for many years. I could write a book about the failure of English education in Thailand, and how to improve it, but nobody wants to read it. But the children in our village can communicate. I'm proud of this.

[Bobobirdiebuddy]

As someone who has taught TOEFL for a long time, I can tell you the difference between 450 and 550 is huge. It doesn't mean that the 450 is 90% of a 550 - it is not a linear comparison. In practice, a student with 450 can communicate on a basic level but with many grammar and structural errors and a rather limited vocabulary. 550 is the level needed to get into many US universities so it shows a good skill set. Again, the difference between 450 and 550 is quite large.

[Markaew]

The problem is Thai schools like to boast about the native speakers on their staff but the Thai teachers do 90% of the English classes. Also, the schools have a horrible attitude toward the foreign teachers. Foreign teachers are window dressing to bring in the students. Bait and switch.

[rbrooks]

How about the lowest in the world. I recall trying to have a conversation in English with some Thai students proudly professing they have a major in English from one of their prestigious colleges. I needed a translator just to understand their attempt at English.

[spidermike007]

My daughter is in High school in Issan. If I'm with her when she's got English homework to do.. I will try simplify/explain the basics of the exercise.

Well how do you explain to the girl that the text-book she's working from is way,way to hard for her, & even has me reading the relevant page over & over to try make some eligible sense of the topic.

The Education Committee here seem to have no idea when it comes to allocating what 'level' of text book to issue to each class/year in the schools.

So the kids quickly get 'bogged-down', do not understand any of the relevant topics, & therefore do not learn anything from these books.

In no time at all the students are bored with learning English..& I for one can understand this.

I have taught English in a Thai high-school, & at the start of each lesson I'd call out "O.K...Open your text-books at page (whatever)".

Straight away a negative wave rolled it's way across the whole class, c/w moans & groans.

Having made my own exercises & printed sheets on the same 'topic of the day'..I held up a wad of photocopies & proudly stated..

"Or shall we work off these"..?? "YEAHHHH" was the enthusiastic reply.

O.K. more trees may have had to be felled to cater for the needs of that hungry photo-copier, but 47 kids learnt what they were supposed

to each day, & (I hope) enjoyed each English lesson with me. ( & yes, those text books stayed in their bags, & the school principal OK'd

my way of teaching them 'enjoyable English'.) KEEP IT SIMPLE FOR THEM & THEY MAY WELL LIKE LEARNING ENGLISH.

The reason for this is that textbooks are not chosen based on what is best for the students. The decision is based on how big the kickback from the publishing distributors the school (director) will receive for placing the order. Profit and especially 'tea money' come first, everything else takes a back seat to that.

Just another reason for life imprisonment, and a 5,000,000 baht fine to the family of any official caught taking bribes of this sort. How long would this practice continue? Officials are getting executed in China, imprisoned in Malaysia, and Indonesia, and building huge villas in Thailand.

[davejones]

They are still better at English than the average foreigner is at Thai. It's all very well mocking Thais for their lack of English skills, but many on here need to look at their lack of Thai skills.

[davejones]

And even many English people born in England don't have adequate English skills. On some inner city estates it's hard to even understand what some of the kids are saying, even though they are supposedly speaking English.

Edited February 28, 2013 by davejones

[culicine]

The only way to quickly improve the situation is for the government to through a lot more money into english programs at all levels of formal education, and paying foreign (qualified) teachers a decent salary to teach here. Waiting until university to teach academic english is too late in my book.

[culicine]

As someone who has taught TOEFL for a long time, I can tell you the difference between 450 and 550 is huge. It doesn't mean that the 450 is 90% of a 550 - it is not a linear comparison. In practice, a student with 450 can communicate on a basic level but with many grammar and structural errors and a rather limited vocabulary. 550 is the level needed to get into many US universities so it shows a good skill set. Again, the difference between 450 and 550 is quite large.

That would be the difference between the weakest and the best in my M5 EP class.....yes it's a massive difference....just had a M6 graduate get an average of 8 on IELTS...amazing! But they are few and far between.

[Yo Sup]

I would have thought Thai students were WORSE than this. The stupid systems the Government has for people who ACTAULLY speak english is terrible. You have to LEAVE thailand to get a visa for a few months to come back and TEACH THais english. Then the money you earn you use agaoin to leave the country to get another Vidsa to come back. this is the case for most people I speak to or they teach ILLEGALLY on retirement visas. getting a proper work visa is hard because the incentive to be paid a low wage is not really there.

The government if it wants PROPER ENGLISH TEACHERS needs to change its visa policy otherwise thais will be going back to living under banana palms and climbing cocoumt trees... or chasing faranbngs dfor income as they are proficient at.

I have travelled EXTENSIVELY and Thailand with SO MANY TOURISTS lags behind the world in Elglish

The world needs a whorehouse.... Thailand fits the bill.... Whores are all about money.... Thailand fits the bill....

If you want to change the environment for English teachers, collect a large amount of people and try to get an advocate with the Ministry of Education. Collectively tell them we need recourse from bad agencies and changes to the visa system for teachers. Tell them our visas should be free. Until then, well, the world needs a whorehouse, Thailand fits the bill.

[Scott]

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[wellred]

A colleague at work was telling me how her 20 something year old sons friend just for a job teaching English in Thailand. Not sure what he was doing at uni but he has defiantly not been into teaching before. When you make it so easy for those who shouldn't be teaching then this all makes sense.

[scorecard]

Heh John L, a prop forward has too! This country will never change until it's too late and they find that they are left a mile behind, and from most of the native English speaking teachers I know they get little or no respect except in the big expensive International schools, they get aggro with visas so why do they bother? Mind you, the thought of Thai kids speaking with broad northern accents did leave a smile on my face.

The best answer is for the government to support or subsidize (will never happen) the private language and training centers as well as universities (particularly students in their freshman and sophomore years who might be able to transfer or are looking for study abroad opportunities).

Unless the quality and salaries for language training/ESL schools are raised by at least 50% (let's say from $1000 to $1500-2000 range or more), then nothing will happen.

Creating a government program in Thailand...that will never work, and will be corrupted before it even gets off the ground.

And the language schools will argue there's not enough demand/student numbers to justify the higher salaries for foreign teachers (that are more highly qualified).

Many language schools simply hire attractive or interesting backpackers in their 20's and 30's, and those teachers might be popular with the students and have well-attended classes, but that's not the same thing as hiring highly experienced and qualified IELTS and TOEFL teachers.

If Thai universities are barely able to pay over $1000 per month, the English education provided in that system won't increase dramatically, either. The system works now because Thailand is an exotic and desirable enough location that language schools can thrive on low cost/lower quality labor...and the students/parents are happy enough to have exposure to native speakers without paying the huge fees that legitimate international schools pay (let's say $2500-4000 USD per month for a salary in Thailand, perhaps a bit higher in Bangkok but not by much).

Actually there is another approach - copy how language is developed in the Philippines:

- Parents teach Tagalog to infants and also teach abc etc (alphabet used for both languages)

- In kindergarten kids are deliberately immersed into spoke English and English development (all skills) is a priority until the end of Primary3 by which time 99% of the population speaks fair to advanced English. From that point other subjects are given more time but are taught, in the majority of schools (incl. govt., schools) in English.

Thailand could have adopted this appraoch 30 years ago but too stubborn.

It can of course still be adopted but wil need some hard work to get it all up and running, but it can do done if the will is there.

The Philippines, one key difference, had and still enjoys a very close relationship with the United States.

There are MANY more Philippines OFW's who communicate in English as their 2nd language.

Most (well, let's say many) highly educated Pinoys have a desire to work outside of the Phils (mostly, to earn more money), whereas the same group of Thais that go to schools like Thammasat or Chula almost always prefer to stay in country.

The Philippines is highly influenced by American culture, movies, music and t.v., to a higher degree than Thailand.

The international language of the Catholic Church (95% of the Phils still) is English, whereas many Buddhists aren't as interested in communicating about their faith in English...since the Asian religions are steeped in the languages of those areas of Asia, such as Thai, Hindi, etc.

Most Pinoys I know, even with Master's degrees or PHD's in language/linguistics, still have a terrible time with grammar and never lose their pronunciation/inflection/intonation unless they move abroad for a long period of time.

I agree with some of your points. Yes the presence of US people probably helps English language development.

I don't completely agree with your comment ..."Most Pinoys I know, even with Master's degrees or PHD's in language/linguistics, still have a terrible time with grammar and never lose their pronunciation/inflection/intonation unless they move abroad for a long period of time. ..."

In my experience Pinoys overall are not that bad with English grammar. Yes they have their own accent but that's a local factor. Pronunciation can be whatever if the educators are determined to get it right. It's also true that there are plenty of folks from the UK who develop local accent from local immersion, and often not all that easy for other native speakers to understand. Australians have their own distinct pronunciation. Singaporeans also have their own pronunciation traits. And you can easily find folks from all the countries I've just mentioned who make grammar mistakes.

All of this begs one ultimate question - overall, which English pronunciation is perfectly correct - none!

None of this means that Thailand could not adopt a structured appraoch to English development based, big picture, on the Pinoy method.

Overall it works.

Edited March 1, 2013 by scorecard

[youngXpat]

How about the lowest in the world. I recall trying to have a conversation in English with some Thai students proudly professing they have a major in English from one of their prestigious colleges. I needed a translator just to understand their attempt at English.

Dude, maybe you should have tried some Thai

[jcnbkk]

When those teaching english can barely speak the language then it doesn't look bright. Those with kids being taught english by thais at school will know what I mean.

The results do not surprise me one iota. Of all 58 countries in Asia,Thailand is 56th in English proficiency.

And when you have the entire population with an average IQ level 10% below the likes of Singapore, Hong Kong and markedly below other ASEAN countries what hope have you got.

It is a simple fact that to teach English effectively the teach should be a native English speaker.

My personal belief (shared by the majority of Caucasians who have been here for any length of time) is that Thais and Thailand are so xenophobic that there is almost a an unwritten policy not to encourage the children to learn English.

The average hooker has a better level of English proficiency than the majority of Thai teachers.

Hmm, been to Canbodia? I would have thought they still suffer from the greatest IQ brain drain after the purges thirty years ago.