Thais Score Lowest In T O E F L

[kurnell]

My daughter went to a "renowned" Thai kindergarten for a couple of years and her English was terrible. We moved her to a very reasonable International School and a year later she can read books and spell words like "grandfather and "favourite" with ease as a 6 year old. The kindergarten was not cheap either.

[geovalin]

I know a lot of Cambodians who learn English. It's expensive for them. They made a choice. They want their expenses in time and money profitable. They are strong-willed. They understand that the tourists or farangs will never speak Khmer.

VERY DIFFERENT in Thailand.

[morning glory]

As an approved TOEFL testing center i am confused i thought the test was out of 120 a score of 30 can be achieved on all 4 elements , I believe TOEIC scores like this but i could be wrong

The iBT Toefl has scores that range as high as 120, but the ITP version of the TOEFL (for institutions only) has scores ranging up to 677.

[sprq]

As an approved TOEFL testing center i am confused i thought the test was out of 120 a score of 30 can be achieved on all 4 elements , I believe TOEIC scores like this but i could be wrong

You seem to be saying you are testing English proficiency. Oh my god!

[avalonmick]

Sorry but I just don't believe the numbers quoted:

- Thai students - 450 - believable.

- Singapore students - 550 - not believable because teachers actually teach 99%

of all classes in English in singapore, students totally immersed in English from

day 1 at Kindergarten. The averageTOEFL score for Singapore students must be

a lot higher than 550 / the gap cannot be just 100, impossible.

Totally agree with your comment. This doesn't add up.

Well apart from the fact that TOEFL is scored out of 100 this report certainly confirms the skeptics worst fears:

AsianScientist (Apr. 28, 2011) – A report by the Educational Testing Services (ETS)summarizing the performance of examinees who took the TOEFL test between the period of Jan-Dec 2010 has the Netherlands topping the list with an average score of 100, followed by Denmark with 99 and Singapore with 98, tied with Austria.

Amongst 163 countries, India ranked 19th, followed by the Philippines at 35th. South Korea ranked 80th and North Korea ranked 96th. Next was China at 105th, Thailand at 116th and Japan at 135th. The lowest scorers in Asia came from Cambodia.

http://www.asianscientist.com/academia/toefl-singapore-worldwide-english-proficiency-top-asia/

[alchik]

If native English speakers qualified with at least TEFL could teach here without so much hassle then things would improve. As things stand the future for the Thai kids needing to learn English is certainly bleak.

[caulfield2]

Sorry but I just don't believe the numbers quoted:

- Thai students - 450 - believable.

- Singapore students - 550 - not believable because teachers actually teach 99%

of all classes in English in singapore, students totally immersed in English from

day 1 at Kindergarten. The averageTOEFL score for Singapore students must be

a lot higher than 550 / the gap cannot be just 100, impossible.

Totally agree with your comment. This doesn't add up.

Well apart from the fact that TOEFL is scored out of 100 this report certainly confirms the skeptics worst fears:

AsianScientist (Apr. 28, 2011) – A report by the Educational Testing Services (ETS)summarizing the performance of examinees who took the TOEFL test between the period of Jan-Dec 2010 has the Netherlands topping the list with an average score of 100, followed by Denmark with 99 and Singapore with 98, tied with Austria.

Amongst 163 countries, India ranked 19th, followed by the Philippines at 35th. South Korea ranked 80th and North Korea ranked 96th. Next was China at 105th, Thailand at 116th and Japan at 135th. The lowest scorers in Asia came from Cambodia.

http://www.asianscientist.com/academia/toefl-singapore-worldwide-english-proficiency-top-asia/

Japan so low? That's a bit of a shocker.

[sprq]

Heh John L, a prop forward has too! This country will never change until it's too late and they find that they are left a mile behind, and from most of the native English speaking teachers I know they get little or no respect except in the big expensive International schools, they get aggro with visas so why do they bother? Mind you, the thought of Thai kids speaking with broad northern accents did leave a smile on my face.

The best answer is for the government to support or subsidize (will never happen) the private language and training centers as well as universities (particularly students in their freshman and sophomore years who might be able to transfer or are looking for study abroad opportunities).

Unless the quality and salaries for language training/ESL schools are raised by at least 50% (let's say from $1000 to $1500-2000 range or more), then nothing will happen.

Creating a government program in Thailand...that will never work, and will be corrupted before it even gets off the ground.

And the language schools will argue there's not enough demand/student numbers to justify the higher salaries for foreign teachers (that are more highly qualified).

Many language schools simply hire attractive or interesting backpackers in their 20's and 30's, and those teachers might be popular with the students and have well-attended classes, but that's not the same thing as hiring highly experienced and qualified IELTS and TOEFL teachers.

If Thai universities are barely able to pay over $1000 per month, the English education provided in that system won't increase dramatically, either. The system works now because Thailand is an exotic and desirable enough location that language schools can thrive on low cost/lower quality labor...and the students/parents are happy enough to have exposure to native speakers without paying the huge fees that legitimate international schools pay (let's say $2500-4000 USD per month for a salary in Thailand, perhaps a bit higher in Bangkok but not by much).

Actually there is another approach - copy how language is developed in the Philippines:

- Parents teach Tagalog to infants and also teach abc etc (alphabet used for both languages)

- In kindergarten kids are deliberately immersed into spoke English and English development (all skills) is a priority until the end of Primary3 by which time 99% of the population speaks fair to advanced English. From that point other subjects are given more time but are taught, in the majority of schools (incl. govt., schools) in English.

Thailand could have adopted this appraoch 30 years ago but too stubborn.

It can of course still be adopted but wil need some hard work to get it all up and running, but it can do done if the will is there.

It is silly to recommend for Thailand the teaching systems of countries in which English is an official language. Thailand has one official language, Thai, and all education should be in that language.

What is needed in Thailand is a revolution in the methods of English teaching and the training of English teachers in state schools. The root of the problem is the dire standards of English teaching in the state system.

[witsawakorn]

When those teaching english can barely speak the language then it doesn't look bright. Those with kids being taught english by thais at school will know what I mean.

The results do not surprise me one iota. Of all 58 countries in Asia,Thailand is 56th in English proficiency.

And when you have the entire population with an average IQ level 10% below the likes of Singapore, Hong Kong and markedly below other ASEAN countries what hope have you got.

It is a simple fact that to teach English effectively the teach should be a native English speaker.

My personal belief (shared by the majority of Caucasians who have been here for any length of time) is that Thais and Thailand are so xenophobic that there is almost a an unwritten policy not to encourage the children to learn English.

The average hooker has a better level of English proficiency than the majority of Thai teachers.

I have been here for a long time and I don't agree with your contention that the reason that the level of English proficiency in Thailand is Thai's xenophobic tendencies. My observation after more than 15 years working here is that the level of English here has improved a lot. If you want to compare Thailand to places like Singapore Malaysia, Burma, Philippines etc. then the lack of colonisation is the common and obvious difference. Most of the Thais that I deal with at work try their best to improve their English. I think the last line of your post tells me everything about the source of your so called knowledge about Thailand. I bet that you have had more conversations with hookers than you have had with teachers haven't you?. (Perhaps when you make statements claiming to represent the views of the majority of "Caucasians" (use of that word tells me a lot about you) who have been here for any length of time you should qualify it by saying that you are speaking for white people whose interactions with Thais is limited to whores!!!!" IMO realisation that a problem exists and admitting is the first step towards improving the situation so why knock every effort that is made to improve the situation. I must say that I had a very enjoyable time a few years back when I went to US with 5 Thai Engineers to do a job at a chemical plant. Safety requirements meant that everyone had to undergo a safety induction and pass a written exam with an 80% or higher score before being allowed on the plant. The Safety Manager told me that I could help my guys to put the correct answers (i.e. cheat) because he assumed that they couldn't speak English. I said no let them try and guess what they all passed with 80%+ scores. I lughed my socks off when I found out that the American Contractor on the same site had to get an exemption for his workers (all citizens or Green card holders) because most of them couldn't speak enough English to get through the safety exam. haha. What do they say about the word assume? Edited February 28, 2013 by witsawakorn

[Sunny1803]

Sorry but I just don't believe the numbers quoted:

- Thai students - 450 - believable.

- Singapore students - 550 - not believable because teachers actually teach 99%

of all classes in English in singapore, students totally immersed in English from

day 1 at Kindergarten. The averageTOEFL score for Singapore students must be

a lot higher than 550 / the gap cannot be just 100, impossible.

Totally agree with your comment. This doesn't add up.

This wouldn't make the Thai's look that bad

[morning glory]

Heh John L, a prop forward has too! This country will never change until it's too late and they find that they are left a mile behind, and from most of the native English speaking teachers I know they get little or no respect except in the big expensive International schools, they get aggro with visas so why do they bother? Mind you, the thought of Thai kids speaking with broad northern accents did leave a smile on my face.

The best answer is for the government to support or subsidize (will never happen) the private language and training centers as well as universities (particularly students in their freshman and sophomore years who might be able to transfer or are looking for study abroad opportunities).

Unless the quality and salaries for language training/ESL schools are raised by at least 50% (let's say from $1000 to $1500-2000 range or more), then nothing will happen.

Creating a government program in Thailand...that will never work, and will be corrupted before it even gets off the ground.

And the language schools will argue there's not enough demand/student numbers to justify the higher salaries for foreign teachers (that are more highly qualified).

Many language schools simply hire attractive or interesting backpackers in their 20's and 30's, and those teachers might be popular with the students and have well-attended classes, but that's not the same thing as hiring highly experienced and qualified IELTS and TOEFL teachers.

If Thai universities are barely able to pay over $1000 per month, the English education provided in that system won't increase dramatically, either. The system works now because Thailand is an exotic and desirable enough location that language schools can thrive on low cost/lower quality labor...and the students/parents are happy enough to have exposure to native speakers without paying the huge fees that legitimate international schools pay (let's say $2500-4000 USD per month for a salary in Thailand, perhaps a bit higher in Bangkok but not by much).

Actually there is another approach - copy how language is developed in the Philippines:

- Parents teach Tagalog to infants and also teach abc etc (alphabet used for both languages)

- In kindergarten kids are deliberately immersed into spoke English and English development (all skills) is a priority until the end of Primary3 by which time 99% of the population speaks fair to advanced English. From that point other subjects are given more time but are taught, in the majority of schools (incl. govt., schools) in English.

Thailand could have adopted this appraoch 30 years ago but too stubborn.

It can of course still be adopted but wil need some hard work to get it all up and running, but it can do done if the will is there.

It is silly to recommend for Thailand the teaching systems of countries in which English is an official language. Thailand has one official language, Thai, and all education should be in that language.

What is needed in Thailand is a revolution in the methods of English teaching and the training of English teachers in state schools. The root of the problem is the dire standards of English teaching in the state system.

...and that is exactly the problem---Thailand has only ONE official language! Do you remember a few years back when they were considering adding English as an official language? And their response---Oh no, we can't do that...people will think we have been colonized before. The extreme degree of Thai nationalism and self-pride are what is slowing down the development in this country!

[irwinfc]

you have to be a multi-millionaire here in the LOS for your kids to learn proper English. even those from so-called demonstration schools have average proficiency at best. don't even talk about comprehension. the fundamental problem i see here is how they teach English. one can never really learn a second language just by "translating". Chris Delivery, Andrew Biggs, etc along with countless Thais in their 1-minute English segments are guilty of this. programs on DLTV are much worse. this is evident by the way Thais pronounce English words - as if they were written in Thai. sad situation for the LOS but not surprising at all.

[ongchart]

I am from Singapore and have lived and operated businesses here for the last 7 years. English language is a first language for all students in Singapore, with our mother tongue being the 2nd language. In the early years since independence, we depended on native speaking (predominantly British) teachers. The conscious effort back then to groom local English teachers by setting up a structured teaching college made the big difference. Over a short period of time since then, English could be taught cheaply to the masses at a fairly high standard.

My generation of cohort (born in early sixties) onwards all think in English, and most of our children spoke English even before Mandarin, Malay, Tamil or dialects.

For Thailand to catch up, it has to adopt a concerted effort to bring in English educationists ( different from teachers) to set up a solid development program over the next 10-20 years. A large part of that program has to be the training of local English teachers, by qualified, native speaking trainers. That pool of local teachers will also have to undertake the role of trainers, for other local teachers. These qualified trainers must develop a curriculum suitable for Thailand. Over time, that curriculum has to be made more rigorous, raising the standards to be on par with Philippines, Malaysia, and eventually Singapore.

It's a long road but it can be done if the government is serious about survival in the AEC era.

I had the pleasure to spend the last couple of days with a friend's family, who has a son who graduated from Chula. Whilst we managed to communicate fairly well, his standard of English is probably close to a 1st year Secondary School mediocre student in Singapore. It's a combination of weak foundation in the language and lack of practise. That says a lot for the standards here for someone from the top university in Thailand.

[nomad127]

One of the universities here where I live, make it mandatory that students run, meditate and do yoga a certain amount of times each semester (about 4 days a week), they are required to also take a swimming class. For the normal part of the school week, a student goes to school 4-5 days a week for about 2-4 hours a day. English classes have Thai's, Kenyans, Filipino's etc teaching the classes, oftentimes these classes are canceled or cut short for various reasons.

[unanimosity]

Sorry but I just don't believe the numbers quoted:

- Thai students - 450 - believable.

- Singapore students - 550 - not believable because teachers actually teach 99%

of all classes in English in singapore, students totally immersed in English from

day 1 at Kindergarten. The averageTOEFL score for Singapore students must be

a lot higher than 550 / the gap cannot be just 100, impossible.

Perhaps those scores are for TOEFL students, whereas, most Singaporeans are ESL educated.

[unanimosity]

One of the universities here where I live, make it mandatory that students run, meditate and do yoga a certain amount of times each semester (about 4 days a week), they are required to also take a swimming class. For the normal part of the school week, a student goes to school 4-5 days a week for about 2-4 hours a day. English classes have Thai's, Kenyans, Filipino's etc teaching the classes, oftentimes these classes are canceled or cut short for various reasons.

Isn't it also mandatory to learn all the patritotic songs as well?

[nomad127]

One of the universities here where I live, make it mandatory that students run, meditate and do yoga a certain amount of times each semester (about 4 days a week), they are required to also take a swimming class. For the normal part of the school week, a student goes to school 4-5 days a week for about 2-4 hours a day. English classes have Thai's, Kenyans, Filipino's etc teaching the classes, oftentimes these classes are canceled or cut short for various reasons.

Isn't it also mandatory to learn all the patritotic songs as well?

Right, I forgot that they have a dance sing/song class that's also mandatory.

[Lizard0]

you have to be a multi-millionaire here in the LOS for your kids to learn proper English. even those from so-called demonstration schools have average proficiency at best. don't even talk about comprehension. the fundamental problem i see here is how they teach English. one can never really learn a second language just by "translating". Chris Delivery, Andrew Biggs, etc along with countless Thais in their 1-minute English segments are guilty of this. programs on DLTV are much worse. this is evident by the way Thais pronounce English words - as if they were written in Thai. sad situation for the LOS but not surprising at all.

Yep, sounds like an English person pronouncing Thai phonetically. They never understand that either

Think most teachers are from UK and AUS though ... so the points regarding tests vs TOEFL are valid. (plus UK/AUS pronunciation is nothing like each other or North America lol).

The R / A endings on words for one very large example

Edited February 28, 2013 by Lizard0

[unanimosity]

I am from Singapore and have lived and operated businesses here for the last 7 years. English language is a first language for all students in Singapore, with our mother tongue being the 2nd language. In the early years since independence, we depended on native speaking (predominantly British) teachers. The conscious effort back then to groom local English teachers by setting up a structured teaching college made the big difference. Over a short period of time since then, English could be taught cheaply to the masses at a fairly high standard.

My generation of cohort (born in early sixties) onwards all think in English, and most of our children spoke English even before Mandarin, Malay, Tamil or dialects.

For Thailand to catch up, it has to adopt a concerted effort to bring in English educationists ( different from teachers) to set up a solid development program over the next 10-20 years. A large part of that program has to be the training of local English teachers, by qualified, native speaking trainers. That pool of local teachers will also have to undertake the role of trainers, for other local teachers. These qualified trainers must develop a curriculum suitable for Thailand. Over time, that curriculum has to be made more rigorous, raising the standards to be on par with Philippines, Malaysia, and eventually Singapore.

It's a long road but it can be done if the government is serious about survival in the AEC era.

I had the pleasure to spend the last couple of days with a friend's family, who has a son who graduated from Chula. Whilst we managed to communicate fairly well, his standard of English is probably close to a 1st year Secondary School mediocre student in Singapore. It's a combination of weak foundation in the language and lack of practise. That says a lot for the standards here for someone from the top university in Thailand.

"It's a long road but it can be done if the government is serious about survival in the AEC era."

The obstacle of course is the proclivity of locals, through institutionalized culture, to buy their degrees and certifications instead of fully earning them. That is what happens when nobody fails in school, and when teachers take money after school for "tutoring" instead of teaching during classroom hours. .

[Kilgore Trout]

I know a lot of Cambodians who learn English. It's expensive for them. They made a choice. They want their expenses in time and money profitable. They are strong-willed. They understand that the tourists or farangs will never speak Khmer.

VERY DIFFERENT in Thailand.

What a silly thing to say; I know a few WESTERN expats who are fluent in khmer

[ongchart]

Regarding the TOEFL score for Singapore - I believe that score may be correct as only very few students take that test, mostly those who cannot get into a local university or don't have good enough English grades in their national exams to be admitted to a US university. So their average standards do not accurately reflect the difference in proficiency between Singapore and Thai students.

[SICHONSTEVE]

I am not suprised. Tune into the education chanels on True Vissions and select an English lesson. You will find out immediatly that not even the Teacher can speak English.

Teacher standards are pathetic in Thailand.

If they truly want to get serious about this then they must STOP insisting that all English teachers MUST HOLD a degree!!!!

There is surely something wrong when an illiterate holding a B of arts degree because he/she can draw some pretty pictures or someone with a degree in paper bag folding can work in a Thai school whereas a (retired in their home country) experienced teacher/English speaker CANNOT get a job!!

Accepted, they must ensure that so-called teachers do not come to Thailand for an extended holiday to fraternise with the women and simply have a good time without taking the interests of their pupils in learning English seriously.

Maybe they should set a MINIMUM age and constantly assess their performance - but DON'T deny those capable and willing candidates because they do not hold a useless bit of paper!!

They will stay at the bottom of the ASEAN pile until they alter their thinking and admit that they have got it completely wrong - this may be too much for a Thai to bear though as how can a farang know more than a Thai on Thai matters?

[Tywais]

Japan so low? That's a bit of a shocker.

Japan is the Worst: TOEFL iBT Scores in Asia

I've taught Japanese before and their rules of grammar knowledge is very good, probably even better than mine. However, application was some of the worse of the Asian students I taught. I found Brunei and Indonesian students top notch. But it was only a small cross section of each.

[unanimosity]

you have to be a multi-millionaire here in the LOS for your kids to learn proper English. even those from so-called demonstration schools have average proficiency at best. don't even talk about comprehension. the fundamental problem i see here is how they teach English. one can never really learn a second language just by "translating". Chris Delivery, Andrew Biggs, etc along with countless Thais in their 1-minute English segments are guilty of this. programs on DLTV are much worse. this is evident by the way Thais pronounce English words - as if they were written in Thai. sad situation for the LOS but not surprising at all.

Yep, sounds like an English person pronouncing Thai phonetically. They never understand that either

Think most teachers are from UK and AUS though ... so the points regarding tests vs TOEFL are valid. (plus UK/AUS pronunciation is nothing like each other or North America lol).

The R / A endings on words for one very large example

One exception to the poor English education in LOS is the tourism and hospitality program at Mahasarakham in Isan. Which brings up another point. One big step in Siam will be when they learn to use English spellings for Thai words properly instead of ten different iterations. Esarn and Issan, et al, have no basis in English language and even the educated historians years ago that prepared the documentation in Khonkaen museams understood the English language precedents for spelling it Isan. Even TV perpetuates bastardised spellings by justifying that it has always been done that way. The question then becomes which transliterated way? The fact that it is transliterated does not waive a responsibility for adhering to English language fundamentals.

[spidermike007]

Sorry but I just don't believe the numbers quoted:

- Thai students - 450 - believable.

- Singapore students - 550 - not believable because teachers actually teach 99%

of all classes in English in singapore, students totally immersed in English from

day 1 at Kindergarten. The averageTOEFL score for Singapore students must be

a lot higher than 550 / the gap cannot be just 100, impossible.

Another case of Thai media whitewashing. It happens every minute, or every day here in the LOS. In a nationwide study done some time ago, Thai math teachers were given the same exam they give their students, and there was an 84% failure rate. How are the students expected to learn, when the teachers know so little about what they are supposedly teaching? What is going on in the schools here? Why are they so poor? Why doesn't anyone care? Why does the government not get involved? Why can't they appoint just one minister (education) not based on cronyism, but rather based on qualifications, and talent? If Thailand does not start catching up, they will literally be left in the dust by their neighbors.

[ragamuffin]

No need for native speaker teachers. They aren't common in e.g. Germany either and the students' English there is much better cause the teachers know what they're doing. Teachers in general need to be qualified and follow approaches other than grammar translation or audiolingualism for a start. Nothing to do with native speakers, I'm afraid.

[Misterwhisper]

All I have to say about this is:

"Me love you same same monkey love banana."

"My friend you him say you hansum man."

"Same same but difflen."

"No pombem."

[unanimosity]

I know a lot of Cambodians who learn English. It's expensive for them. They made a choice. They want their expenses in time and money profitable. They are strong-willed. They understand that the tourists or farangs will never speak Khmer.

VERY DIFFERENT in Thailand.

What a silly thing to say; I know a few WESTERN expats who are fluent in khmer

What a silly thing to say. Certainly there are a few company Montanyard handlers still kicking around the region, and they are hardly what geo meant by farang tourists.

[unanimosity]

No need for native speaker teachers. They aren't common in e.g. Germany either and the students' English there is much better cause the teachers know what they're doing. Teachers in general need to be qualified and follow approaches other than grammar translation or audiolingualism for a start. Nothing to do with native speakers, I'm afraid.

It's true that a lot of native speakers are very poor in English, especially, sorry to say from me home country. Whilst a degree isn't necessary, all teachers should have to score well on an international evaluation test and then be monitored by a native speaker with proper credentials.

[NeverSure]

"....The average hooker has a better level of English proficiency than the majority of Thai teachers..."

Please excuse the selective very pertinent quote: but how can it be that a Thai student can go all the way through school and university never have spoken directly too a native speaker? Just ridiculous.

I have a friend who's Thai. She has a master's degree and is a teacher in Isaan in the general Surin/Sisaket/etc. area in a village where they bring kids in from several villages. She as worked hard on English and can read and write it quite well but she can barely speak or understand it. She has worked hard trying to learn English.

The reason that she can't converse in English well is because all of her English teachers, including at Uni, were Thai. No one in her village speaks English. They don't have a NES teacher in their system. English is still taught by a Thai and she sometimes substitutes.

While I would have thought that many Thais could speak English but not write it well, and that may be true of bar girls for all I know, I'm finding that the educated ones are likely to be the opposite.

I want to paste in a note she wrote to show you, and please remember while this is far from great, it's clearly understandable and she can't speak or understand English! She doesn't know what most of the words sound like!

Good evening from Thailand ka,

(My name) ka, you hate a toad or not*

A big toad was coming while we were talking after dinner at the

dormitory. I jumped to catch it. I am not afraid it, I often caught it

and kissed it, I think it is lovely but the others are very afraid it.

Do you think it is ugly? I like a toad but I am afraid caterpillar,

centipede, millipede, slug and snake.

Did you see a cicada? After I left a toad, a cicada had come to the

light. When summer has come we will hear a natural sound from cicadas, sometime in

the dawn, midday and the night but somebody doesn't like that sound.

Today a temperature in a midday was 48 ํC, I checked in a field and in the

room was 40 ํC. And now room temperature is 35 ํC at 21:30 PM. Is it

hotter than (where you are?)

I have to take a bath before sleep again.

You have a nice day ka.

(Her name)

Edited February 28, 2013 by NeverSure