Al-Qaeda Says 'barbaric' U.s. Drone Strikes In Yemen Kill Civilians

[jamhar]

I'm certainly not an expert. But, I would judge democracies as 'pro-American' or 'anti-American' by what they do - not what they say.

Otherwise, you'd have to add Australia and the UK to the anti-American list - at least according to all the posts I've read in this forum...

It's easier to look at the oligarchies being propped up by America instead of being berated for their lack of democratic freedoms.

Saudi Arabia obviously springs to mind first and foremost ....

Hey that's not fair!!!!, The Saud family bought off their people fair and square!

Saudia Arabia plays both sides of the coin. The US side come up more often when its to their advantage. If china bought all the SA oil for 1.2 times going price, the US would be quickly kicked off their soil.

Regarding UK and Oz (and Canada), regardless of what some of its citizens say, those governments are as close as independent countries can be. The history goes back to WWII when it was those 4 countries that was all that stood between democracies and the Axis. (yes i'm ignoring Russia for this discussion)

We may squabble, we may even throw real punches,

but when the REAL sh*t hits the fan,

those countries know they can rely on each other from a historical perspective.

[Scott]

Some off-topic post and replies have been deleted. Let's stick to the topic.

[tgeezer]

Hope TVF let you see this

If they did not plan the murders and the suicide bombings, they would not have to creep around in the night as you will see.

Not for the PC folks or the sceamish...awesomely accurate firepower.

2 APACHE choppers KILL A PLATOON OF TALIBAN

Very graphic, but it shows the capability with the equipment on hand.

They know if he's carrying a rifle or an RPG. You can see some of them with the

rifle in hand. One wee rifle against a Hellfire missile seems a bit unbalanced,

huh? That is so incredible. Not good for Taliban recruiting.

I found that footage very unsettling. I suspect that not a few non combatants were killed there.

[Steely Dan]

Hope TVF let you see this

If they did not plan the murders and the suicide bombings, they would not have to creep around in the night as you will see.

Not for the PC folks or the sceamish...awesomely accurate firepower.

2 APACHE choppers KILL A PLATOON OF TALIBAN

Very graphic, but it shows the capability with the equipment on hand.

They know if he's carrying a rifle or an RPG. You can see some of them with the

rifle in hand. One wee rifle against a Hellfire missile seems a bit unbalanced,

huh? That is so incredible. Not good for Taliban recruiting.

I found that footage very unsettling. I suspect that not a few non combatants were killed there.

I found myself humming 'Ride of the Valkyries'.

[Chicog]

Hope TVF let you see this

If they did not plan the murders and the suicide bombings, they would not have to creep around in the night as you will see.

Not for the PC folks or the sceamish...awesomely accurate firepower.

2 APACHE choppers KILL A PLATOON OF TALIBAN

Very graphic, but it shows the capability with the equipment on hand.

They know if he's carrying a rifle or an RPG. You can see some of them with the

rifle in hand. One wee rifle against a Hellfire missile seems a bit unbalanced,

huh? That is so incredible. Not good for Taliban recruiting.

I found that footage very unsettling. I suspect that not a few non combatants were killed there.

I found myself humming 'Ride of the Valkyries'.

I really felt sorry for the poor donkey.

[jamhar]

I found that footage very unsettling. I suspect that not a few non combatants were killed there.

I found myself humming 'Ride of the Valkyries'.

I really felt sorry for the poor donkey.

You guys are really too much.

Regarding the possible civi causalities,

Thats my point. The troops on the ground attracted the insurgents.

they chose to hide in the campgound with the civi's, to make return fire unattractive.

The Apache weapons officer as good as they are, arent perfect.

Remove the troops on the ground

loiter and wait till the insurgents are all together away from civi's

take em out with a single missile.

Better yet, we can now wait and just take out the leaders.

Keep killing the heads, the body will soon follow.

At the very least, you severely limit their ability to bring the war to your home soil.

[oldsailor35]

I'm certainly not an expert. But, I would judge democracies as 'pro-American' or 'anti-American' by what they do - not what they say.

Otherwise, you'd have to add Australia and the UK to the anti-American list - at least according to all the posts I've read in this forum...

It's easier to look at the oligarchies being propped up by America instead of being berated for their lack of democratic freedoms.

Saudi Arabia obviously springs to mind first and foremost ....

Hey that's not fair!!!!, The Saud family bought off their people fair and square!

Saudia Arabia plays both sides of the coin. The US side come up more often when its to their advantage. If china bought all the SA oil for 1.2 times going price, the US would be quickly kicked off their soil.

Regarding UK and Oz (and Canada), regardless of what some of its citizens say, those governments are as close as independent countries can be. The history goes back to WWII when it was those 4 countries that was all that stood between democracies and the Axis. (yes i'm ignoring Russia for this discussion)

We may squabble, we may even throw real punches,

but when the REAL sh*t hits the fan,

those countries know they can rely on each other from a historical perspective.

Errrr ! You forgot to add that small "Sheep loving" nation.

[oldsailor35]

Hope TVF let you see this

If they did not plan the murders and the suicide bombings, they would not have to creep around in the night as you will see.

Not for the PC folks or the sceamish...awesomely accurate firepower.

2 APACHE choppers KILL A PLATOON OF TALIBAN

Very graphic, but it shows the capability with the equipment on hand.

They know if he's carrying a rifle or an RPG. You can see some of them with the

rifle in hand. One wee rifle against a Hellfire missile seems a bit unbalanced,

huh? That is so incredible. Not good for Taliban recruiting.

I found that footage very unsettling. I suspect that not a few non combatants were killed there.

Well, i did notice that the guy creeping around the tents was left alone until he moved away. However this shows the real need for more of these drones. So accurate and all the targets had to be verified before being attacked. Very well done i say.

Edited March 6, 2013 by oldsailor35

[uptheos]

I want these scum to live with the constant fear of drones buzzing over their head night and day and watching every move!

[jamhar]

"Errrr ! You forgot to add that small "Sheep loving" nation."

I humbly apologize to my sheep lov'n bro's to the south.

NZ is certainly in that core group, undoubtedly. I just recall from my memory of my secondary school history lessons that Oz was a key factor in the pacific. I'm sure NZ was in that group.

[simple1]

"Errrr ! You forgot to add that small "Sheep loving" nation."

I humbly apologize to my sheep lov'n bro's to the south.

NZ is certainly in that core group, undoubtedly. I just recall from my memory of my secondary school history lessons that Oz was a key factor in the pacific. I'm sure NZ was in that group.

As a bit of history you may like to know that as a percentage of population, NZ suffered more military deaths in WW11 than any other Commonwealth nation.

[jamhar]

Again my ignorance of NZ in WW2 is glaring.

For my penance i'll do a little research tonight But in my defense , my exclusion of NZ in my list was purely an oversight. While not knowing the details, I vaguely recalled that NZ never wavered. (Gimme a break, will ya? my secondary schooling was back in the late 70's for god sakes! )

With countries and in personal life, there are very few you can call "true friends". Even fewer that have had their mettle tested, and stayed true. You cant afford to lose too many of them.

[maidu]

Message to non-combatants, whether you're related to the baddies or not: stay faaaaaar away from your punk husbands/brothers/fathers/friends .....because they will be hunted down and killed - and those 30 mm shells make a h#ll of a burned-out mess of anything within 7 meters.

[jamhar]

Message to non-combatants, whether you're related to the baddies or not: stay faaaaaar away from your punk husbands/brothers/fathers/friends .....because they will be hunted down and killed - and those 30 mm shells make a h#ll of a burned-out mess of anything within 7 meters.

Agreed, unfortunately lots of noncombatants do not even realize what danger they are in, nor what dangers the their combatant family members maybe putting them in. Its a rare individual that will use his mother, father, wife and children as shields against bullets meant for him

But if thats the terrain we are in, we will just have to work with what we have.. So yes, use the drones as much as possible. It keeps our troops out of harms way, AND it saves noncombatant lives, vs manned attacks and troops on the ground.

[mania]

Not interested in debating right or wrong as I do understand there is more than one facet.

On the one hand you have success at targeting terrorist at a lesser risk to those doing the targeting.

On the other hand you have those that have to live under the drones & are not terrorist.

Here is a pdf that may be of interest to some. It deals with those living under the drones

Done by The Stanford International Human Rights and Conflict Resolution Clinic

Following nine months of intensive research—including two investigations in Pakistan,
more than 130 interviews with victims, witnesses, and experts, and review of thousands
of pages of documentation and media reporting—this report presents evidence of the
damaging and counterproductive effects of current US drone strike policies. Based on
extensive interviews with Pakistanis living in the regions directly affected, as well as
humanitarian and medical workers, this report provides new and firsthand testimony
about the negative impacts US policies are having on the civilians living under drones.

http://livingunderdrones.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Stanford_NYU_LIVING_UNDER_DRONES.pdf

Edited March 10, 2013 by mania

[OZEMADE]

Not interested in debating right or wrong as I do understand there is more than one facet.

On the one hand you have success at targeting terrorist at a lesser risk to those doing the targeting.

On the other hand you have those that have to live under the drones & are not terrorist.

Here is a pdf that may be of interest to some. It deals with those living under the drones

Done by The Stanford International Human Rights and Conflict Resolution Clinic

Following nine months of intensive research—including two investigations in Pakistan,

more than 130 interviews with victims, witnesses, and experts, and review of thousands

of pages of documentation and media reporting—this report presents evidence of the

damaging and counterproductive effects of current US drone strike policies. Based on

extensive interviews with Pakistanis living in the regions directly affected, as well as

humanitarian and medical workers, this report provides new and firsthand testimony

about the negative impacts US policies are having on the civilians living under drones.

http://livingunderdrones.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/Stanford_NYU_LIVING_UNDER_DRONES.pdf

This is one of the reasons we have drone strikes and will continue drone strikes and need more of them. I dont see where Terrorists were worried about the families that got the news back in their countries. They dont care, why should we.

http://www.thaivisa.com/forum/topic/625052-italy-britain-confirm-deaths-of-hostages-in-nigeria/

[jamhar]

Oz. I feel as you do, but don't let the terrorists take away your humanity. if you do, you are letting them win, if only partially.

Drones are preferable particularly because of the impact on the innocent civi's involved. Even the paper cited above admitted to the lower causality rate. You had to make that determination yourself since they wouldn't say it outright, at least not in the executive summary, The Executive Summary was all i could read, but hey i tried. lol. see the quote below

"September 2012, available data indicate that drone strikes killed 2,562-3,325 people in Pakistan, of whom 474-881 were civilians, including 176 children. TBIJ reports that these strikes also injured an additional 1,228-1,362 individuals"

Using the "high/high" numbers, that's about 26% untarget/targeted kill ratio. MUCH lower than any manned attack ratio I've seen. And my personal belief is that untargeted numbers are high but thats just my opinion.

Regardless, drones are better for the noncombatants AND NATO forces. The paper cited made the general claim that living under the threat of drone attack 24/7 is psychologically stressful. And living under the threat of F18 attacks 24/7 is less? If they are so traumatized, They can either chase away the insurgents, or live away from them. If not, they are probably supporting them with the associated risks that comes with it. But that paper came off really antiwar biased IMO.

Lastly, I see people making the argument for drones attacks or no attacks . That is not he argument. The argument is manned attacks, or unmanned attacks. As long as there are those that profess and demonstrate the ability and willingness to kill westerners (men, women, and children) then i believe we should take the war to THEM.

I'm putting my vote in for unmanned attacks vs manned attacks anyday,

unless an escalation is needed.

Edited March 11, 2013 by jamhar

[mania]

They dont care, why should we.

I imagine it is to maintain a difference between Terrorist & Non-Terrorist

[jamhar]

The Israelis are using drone wheeled vehicles to monitor the border

http://news.yahoo.com/autonomous-cars-patrol-israeli-border-202028387.html

The age of drones are upon us lol