Flying To Thailand From The Uk - Open Return?

[Malthus101]

Hi guys

Have read a few posts but still a bit confused.

I am soon to book my ticket from the UK to Thailand. I will be living in Chiang Mai and plan to stay for a year doing Visa runs or applying for an ED Visa when I get there.

So, in no particular order, I have some questions for others who have made similar plans to me.

1. Is there such a thing as an open return ticket still?

2. As my ticket requirements are a bit more complex, should I use a travel agent rather than booking online? Is there much of a cost difference?

3. Is it a good idea to call the airlines directly and book with them?

4. Should I actually book a ticket to Chiang Mai rather than to Bangkok? (I'm thinking of maybe staying a couple of nights in Bangkok when I arrive just to see it a bit before coming up to CM)

5. Would you recommend flying to CM from BKK rather than taking a train or bus?

6. I want to bring 1 large suitcase and 1 zip-up holdall bag - will all airlines allow 2 pieces of luggage in the hold plus and extra small bag to take as hand luggage in the cabin?

7. Which is the best airline to fly to Thailand with in your experiences?

8. Which airlines allow one or more changes to the return leg of a journey for free or minimal cost?

9. Which is generally the cheapest time of year to fly to Thailand? (makes not much difference now as I'm pretty sure I'll be coming in April)

10. Anything else I should think of?

I think that's about it for now!

Thanks

Malthus101

[Malthus101]

Oh yes there was one other thing -

Which are the best airlines for maximum weight allowance with 2 bags? (I have no idea how much my total weight will be - can't be that much, clothes, shoes, computer stuff, quite a few big books though...)

Thanks.

[breadbin]

Op, seriously, I read your post and don't believe that someone who has decided to travel 6000 miles, chosen to live in CM, knows about visa runs and Ed visa knows nothing about flights, where to book, ticket types, baggage allowances etc. etc.

You seem to have made some decisions and have probably researched some things about places to stay in Thai, courses, visas etc. but why not flights?

I think you could answer the questions yourself.

Good luck and I hope your year is a great one.

[Malthus101]

Well, I dont go on holiday much and always travel light - this journey is a bit more complex.

I thought that others doing similar things may have already found out all the little secrets that take a while to find out.

I am still waiting for my replacement passport so no point even really looking at flights until it arrives.

[sunkissed]

I am aslo leaving in march for a year i wont do ed visa but i will have a triple entry before i leave uk which will give me 90+ + 90 + 90 day. per visa.

which then i will leave and re apply for a double entry visa.

so far ive seen eva air 1161 rtn baggage is 25kg plus 7kg i think.

i will send 1 suitcase via baggage company for £200. takes 6 to 10 days door to door. no customs fee as its included.

[endure]

Emirates gives 30kg (plus cabin baggage) to economy passengers but you'll be breaking your flight in Dubai. The do fly from a number of provincial UK airports if you don't live near Heathrow.

[sunkissed]

i would recommend you applying for you triple visa before you leave uk as once your in thailand you will get only 30 days tourist visa then you have to leave to another country and will only get a double entry visa.

so make sure you get that before you leave its aprox £75 plus £10 postage costs.

Edited March 5, 2013 by sunkissed

[Riverman63]

I just came back from Thailand and flew economy with Eva Air. I booked last August and it cost me £580ish return. Booked with UK company on Internet. Holiday Genie if I'm allowed to mention their name?

[Upnotover]

1. Yes.

2. Its not complex, no.

3. Yes

4. No. You'll be tied to a schedule.

5. Flying is quick, others more of a travel experience, depends on what you want.

6. Yes, up to a maximum total weight

7. Impossible to say, everyone has his own preference, mine is Emirates.

8. All of them, but depends how much you pay for the ticket. An open return is exactly that, and as such is normally one of the most expensive options.

9. Makes no difference, you're coming in April!

10. 100% make sure you get a tourist visa before you leave, triple entry preferably.

Enjoy.

Edited March 5, 2013 by Upnotover

[breadbin]

Btw, where are you in UK?

[Malthus101]

1. Yes.

2. Its not complex, no.

3. Yes

4. No. You'll be tied to a schedule.

5. Flying is quick, others more of a travel experience, depends on what you want.

6. Yes, up to a maximum total weight

7. Impossible to say, everyone has his own preference, mine is Emirates.

8. All of them, but depends how much you pay for the ticket. An open return is exactly that, and as such is normally one of the most expensive options.

9. Makes no difference, you're coming in April!

10. 100% make sure you get a tourist visa before you leave, triple entry preferably.

Enjoy.

Thanks, this is actually very helpful. I really want to try Emirates too, never have done but they look very smart. I would also be happy with Cathay Pacific and I have heard Thai are actually very good too. I might just call each of them in turn to get an idea of prices and conditions etc.

I thkink 25-30 KG is going to be more than enough, that seems like a lot of weight. What sort of prices do airlines charge for going over your weight limit? (like I said, I rarely take holidays and when I do have never exceeded the weight - this time though I am carrying a years worth of clothes and some computer stuff too but nothing over the top)

Thanks everyone esle too for tips and advice - I am indeed going to get a triple visa and I am flying from London, so Gatwick or Heathrow, either works for me.

Any other personal opinion on airlines is welcomed, thanks.

PS - is it relatively easy to get a flight to CM from BKK?

[Barry King]

I always fly Emirates, they give 30kgs + 7kg cabin allowance, even in economy class, you used to have to enrol to their frequent flyer for this, but it may be standard now. If you do need to you can easily do it when you book your flight. They have a lot of offers on from the UK, so you may be lucky with a good price. I enjoy the break in Dubai as it splits the journey from the UK more or less in the middle making each flight around 6 to 7 hours.

[asanee]

as such real open tickets are much a thing of the past-certainly for eco. What you get is a-for a fee or not- changeable return. This depends on ticket clas.

BUT-what anyone above neglects- nearly all these ticketbaskets ALSO have time limits- ' the I only paid 580'' is useless no-brainer, as its most likely for short stay.

For up to 1 year in most cases you only get ful-fare eco-whcih in fact is not even tied to 1 airline.

Indeed, I think-also given your apparent total ignorance of even basic rules of airline ticketing,. to contact a tr-agent. Yes-they add a fee-but most likely this is well paid off in preventing you from one of the many disasters we see so often posted on this forum-mostly the result of people thinking they can easily do that job by themselves-and then omit many of those basic rules.

[davejones]

I would travel from Bangkok to Chiang Mai by train, unless you're in a hurry. It will be more of an experience for you. It is also much cheaper, so may help if you're on a smaller budget.

Air Asia is probably the ost popular airline for flying with Asia, and it's pretty cheap, as long as you book far enough in advance. It can be expensive if you leave it until too late. So if you're planning to fly from Bangkok to Chiang Mai, it's best to book in advance. Also try Nok Air.

For you flight to Thailand, don't forget to use different places to check prices, and also check the airline websites. Also, check the prices for different days of the week, and different times of the month. If you're flexible with departure date, then you should be able to get the best deal. Shop around, don't just buy the first flight you find. There can be some very big differences in price.

[Malthus101]

I always fly Emirates, they give 30kgs + 7kg cabin allowance, even in economy class, you used to have to enrol to their frequent flyer for this, but it may be standard now. If you do need to you can easily do it when you book your flight. They have a lot of offers on from the UK, so you may be lucky with a good price. I enjoy the break in Dubai as it splits the journey from the UK more or less in the middle making each flight around 6 to 7 hours.

I have a question about these Arab airlines - do they let you drink alcohol in flight? There's no way I'm flying to the other side of the world without a drink! (not a fan of flying)

Also, the stop-overs, do you actually get off the plane and stay in Dubai for a few days or do you just mean touching down and stretching your legs in the airport for a few hours?

I've read the thread about taking medication into the UAE but stories of 4 year imprisonments for having poppy seeds on clothing from a sandwich at Heathrow, 4 years for having 0.0003 grams of cannabis stuck to the tread of a man's shoes by accident. I've a good mind to boycot all Arab airlines until they upgrade their thought paterns to the 21st (even the 20th) century!

[LAKRA]

I always fly Emirates, they give 30kgs + 7kg cabin allowance, even in economy class, you used to have to enrol to their frequent flyer for this, but it may be standard now. If you do need to you can easily do it when you book your flight. They have a lot of offers on from the UK, so you may be lucky with a good price. I enjoy the break in Dubai as it splits the journey from the UK more or less in the middle making each flight around 6 to 7 hours.

I have a question about these Arab airlines - do they let you drink alcohol in flight? There's no way I'm flying to the other side of the world without a drink! (not a fan of flying)

Also, the stop-overs, do you actually get off the plane and stay in Dubai for a few days or do you just mean touching down and stretching your legs in the airport for a few hours?

I've read the thread about taking medication into the UAE but stories of 4 year imprisonments for having poppy seeds on clothing from a sandwich at Heathrow, 4 years for having 0.0003 grams of cannabis stuck to the tread of a man's shoes by accident. I've a good mind to boycot all Arab airlines until they upg.rade their thought paterns to the 21st (even the 20th) century!

Travelled with Emirates 6 months ago and had the same concerns as you. UAE has a website listing disallowed medicines but unless you're a chemist you could get confused. As I was on prescribed medicine I took the precaution of getting a letter from my GP and on the advice of their embassy packed the medicine in my hold baggage and not cabin baggage. I was transiting Dubai so my suggestion would be for you to contact the UAE embassy.

[endure]

Do you actually take any prescription medicine? If so, what? If you fly with most of the Arab airlines you'll be served booze. Transit through Dubai wil be a matter of hours depending on how well you pick your connections.

[rct99q]

If arriving in April be careful with your dates as it is Songkran (thai new year, April 13-15) and it gets very busy (trains, hotels etc) especially in CM. Not sure how old you are (thinking a little on the younger side - drug reference and all).

And although I live and love Thailand I do hope you have done a little research on living here. I hope to not make too many assumptions but though the laws seem lax compared to the UK you can still run into legal problems with the drinking, drugs and women issues.

Fly into BKK, take the train to CM it is a great experience.

[Malthus101]

OK, so Emirates allow drinking on board? That's all I need to know. Maybe I will check out this Eva airline that everyone seems to be taking. Or perhaps stick to Cathay and change at Hong Kong (ahh, good old HK..... Lived there years ago)

I like to think of myself as young, sure, but asking about drinking on flight and being concerned about a 4 year prison sentance because someone else got arrested for having a joint butt stuck to their shoe does not mean I am a drug crazed alcoholic! Last time I checked, normal civilized peole enjoyed the freedom to drink on airlines to calm the nerves. The point is the arabs are aresting people for having poppy seeds from sandwiches stuck to them or someone else's drugs (microscopic amounts) stuck to their shoes..For all I know, I have a poppy seed on me and a small bit of cannabis on my shoe, how would I know?

So, as I am coming out long term, I will have a large suitcase, a holdall bag and my hand luggage backpack (small)

Do you still think getting the train is a good idea or might it be a lot of hassle with that much luggage? And are the trains safe or will I need to be constatntly keeping an eye on the bags? And how long is the journey by the way? (so many questions!)

Thanks.

[endure]

Enormous number of people from the UK regularly fly to Thailand on the Middle Eastern airlines. Why don't you do a bit of research yourself and go and look at their websites? They all tell you what services they offer. Emirates, Qatar, Etihad. Also look at http://www.airlinequality.com/ for passenger reports on airlines and airports and www.seatguru.com for seating plans. Flying to CM takes an hour. You need to pick the right airline depending on how much baggage you have.

If you travel to the Middle East (or Thailand for that matter) thinking that they ought to change their laws to suit you then you're going to be very disappointed.

[Malthus101]

Enormous number of people from the UK regularly fly to Thailand on the Middle Eastern airlines. Why don't you do a bit of research yourself and go and look at their websites? They all tell you what services they offer. Emirates, Qatar, Etihad. Also look at http://www.airlinequality.com/ for passenger reports on airlines and airports and www.seatguru.com for seating plans. Flying to CM takes an hour. You need to pick the right airline depending on how much baggage you have.

If you travel to the Middle East (or Thailand for that matter) thinking that they ought to change their laws to suit you then you're going to be very disappointed.

If they want international buisness they can't go around giving people 4 year prison sentences for having poppy seeds from food items stuck to their clothes.

Yes, they do need to change.

Thanks for your input.

[endure]

Enormous number of people from the UK regularly fly to Thailand on the Middle Eastern airlines. Why don't you do a bit of research yourself and go and look at their websites? They all tell you what services they offer. Emirates, Qatar, Etihad. Also look at http://www.airlinequality.com/ for passenger reports on airlines and airports and www.seatguru.com for seating plans. Flying to CM takes an hour. You need to pick the right airline depending on how much baggage you have.

If you travel to the Middle East (or Thailand for that matter) thinking that they ought to change their laws to suit you then you're going to be very disappointed.

If they want international buisness they can't go around giving people 4 year prison sentences for having poppy seeds from food items stuck to their clothes.

Yes, they do need to change.

[NanLaew]

I would suggest the OP review his 'years worth of clothes' when packing for such a long trip. Casual wear is cheap and freely available in Thailand so just pack your most comfortable loafers, favourite jeans and shirts and at least one long-sleeved shirt, cardigan or jacket for the cooler times at the end of the year. Anything else can be acquired here, even XXL sizes although extra large footwear is a bit harder to get. If you like your socks, bring your own as the local stocks may be an acquired taste. This may save you on extra baggage costs as most EU airlines only allow 23kg max. However, KLM and Air France discount excess baggage charges if prepaid online via their website prior to airport check-in or bag-drop.

Alternatives to the mid-east airlines (Qatar is my favourite) include using London City airport (LCY). I just plugged LCY-BKK into matrix search for an 1st April departure and a 300 day stay and got the following prices for a 1-stop, round-trip flight dealing direct with the airlines:

Swiss International £645, (Via Zurich, using A340's for the long haul sector, newer plane. Never flown them recently but maybe some other members have. Not sure how Zurich rates as a transit airport)

Lufthansa £669, (Still using 'legacy' 747's to Bangkok via Frankfurt which is a 'hiking' airport regards transfers, tight seat pitch, hard seats, not recommended)

KLM £721, Use newer 777's from Amsterdam to Bangkok, quite comfy but usually full. Schiphol is a decent transit airport but make sure you leave enough time as it can be busy.

Air France £749, Also use 777's from Paris CDG but the transit will be dire with bolshy security; I still haven't seen such a 21st century marvel as an ATM machine at that airport! Seats on the plane are also quite hard IMHO so may not be comfy for a long ride.

All these prices came in later part of April, after Songkran in Thailand and Easter holidays in Europe.

Plugging the same route with a 355-day (1-year) validity blew ALL the numbers to buggery as that meant both legs of travel would be in the high-demand April/Easter windows. Only Swiss International and Lufthansa stayed 'in the frame' but only in the FIRST WEEK OF APRIL with the Dutch and French rocketing into the stratosphere.

Plugging 'all London' airports for the same route with 355-day validity showed that Swiss International were still the pick of the bunch at £618 but a much wider selection including all the mid-east carriers as well as Finnair, Turkish (I just read in the Economist that they are reducing alcohol availability on their flights), Jet Airways (with a dubious Mumbai layover that includes horrible security) and Austrian. I friend of mine has been using Austrian for his twice-yearly travel to France via Vienna and reckons the service and comfort on their 777's is very good.

If the OP does end up with 2 heavy bags, then maybe the best bet is to book flights through to CNX and avoid lugging bags on trains and planes as a new arrival. Using AirAsia won't be cheaper this close to flight dates, especially with baggage to be paid for. CNX is a through-destination for KLM and Air France as well so bags could be checked all the way through. Get to your destination, move in, unpack and then do Bangkok via train or bus at your leisure with minimal baggage. It's not going anywhere and you do have a year after all.

[Malthus101]

Enormous number of people from the UK regularly fly to Thailand on the Middle Eastern airlines. Why don't you do a bit of research yourself and go and look at their websites? They all tell you what services they offer. Emirates, Qatar, Etihad. Also look at http://www.airlinequality.com/ for passenger reports on airlines and airports and www.seatguru.com for seating plans. Flying to CM takes an hour. You need to pick the right airline depending on how much baggage you have.

If you travel to the Middle East (or Thailand for that matter) thinking that they ought to change their laws to suit you then you're going to be very disappointed.

If they want international buisness they can't go around giving people 4 year prison sentences for having poppy seeds from food items stuck to their clothes.

Yes, they do need to change.

Oh dear. And you're a mod?

[Malthus101]

I would suggest the OP review his 'years worth of clothes' when packing for such a long trip. Casual wear is cheap and freely available in Thailand so just pack your most comfortable loafers, favourite jeans and shirts and at least one long-sleeved shirt, cardigan or jacket for the cooler times at the end of the year. Anything else can be acquired here, even XXL sizes although extra large footwear is a bit harder to get. If you like your socks, bring your own as the local stocks may be an acquired taste. This may save you on extra baggage costs as most EU airlines only allow 23kg max. However, KLM and Air France discount excess baggage charges if prepaid online via their website prior to airport check-in or bag-drop.

Alternatives to the mid-east airlines (Qatar is my favourite) include using London City airport (LCY). I just plugged LCY-BKK into matrix search for an 1st April departure and a 300 day stay and got the following prices for a 1-stop, round-trip flight dealing direct with the airlines:

Swiss International £645, (Via Zurich, using A340's for the long haul sector, newer plane. Never flown them recently but maybe some other members have. Not sure how Zurich rates as a transit airport)

Lufthansa £669, (Still using 'legacy' 747's to Bangkok via Frankfurt which is a 'hiking' airport regards transfers, tight seat pitch, hard seats, not recommended)

KLM £721, Use newer 777's from Amsterdam to Bangkok, quite comfy but usually full. Schiphol is a decent transit airport but make sure you leave enough time as it can be busy.

Air France £749, Also use 777's from Paris CDG but the transit will be dire with bolshy security; I still haven't seen such a 21st century marvel as an ATM machine at that airport! Seats on the plane are also quite hard IMHO so may not be comfy for a long ride.

All these prices came in later part of April, after Songkran in Thailand and Easter holidays in Europe.

Plugging the same route with a 355-day (1-year) validity blew ALL the numbers to buggery as that meant both legs of travel would be in the high-demand April/Easter windows. Only Swiss International and Lufthansa stayed 'in the frame' but only in the FIRST WEEK OF APRIL with the Dutch and French rocketing into the stratosphere.

Plugging 'all London' airports for the same route with 355-day validity showed that Swiss International were still the pick of the bunch at £618 but a much wider selection including all the mid-east carriers as well as Finnair, Turkish (I just read in the Economist that they are reducing alcohol availability on their flights), Jet Airways (with a dubious Mumbai layover that includes horrible security) and Austrian. I friend of mine has been using Austrian for his twice-yearly travel to France via Vienna and reckons the service and comfort on their 777's is very good.

If the OP does end up with 2 heavy bags, then maybe the best bet is to book flights through to CNX and avoid lugging bags on trains and planes as a new arrival. Using AirAsia won't be cheaper this close to flight dates, especially with baggage to be paid for. CNX is a through-destination for KLM and Air France as well so bags could be checked all the way through. Get to your destination, move in, unpack and then do Bangkok via train or bus at your leisure with minimal baggage. It's not going anywhere and you do have a year after all.

Thanks very much for this detailed report - yes I was wondering about songkram - I would actually quite like to be there for the festival, I think it would make a nice start to the trip. Maybe I should be looking for the first week in April as I orginally had planned. I hadn't even considered London City airport assuming it's just for shorter flights only. I'm sure Swiss airways are well managed!

I've been reading reviews of various airlines and it seems even 4 or 5 star airlines like CP have their fair share of bad reports (hard to please everyone I suppose) - I don't fly enough to have much of an opinion on seat pitch for example but bad food on such a long flight would be annoying. What can you do - just get there, that's the most important thing!

I think you are probably right about CNX/BKK. Get to Chiang Mai, settle in, visit BKK with 1 piece of luggage. When I say a years worth, it's not that bad. A few pairs of shoes, good quality t-shirts, couple of long sleeve shirts, a few pairs of trousesrs etc. Surely can't go above 23-30 KG! We shall see. How do people actually weigh their cases before flight? Using bathroom scales or something?

Anyway, I used Sky Scanner and it returned lots of flights open for 6 months in the £600-700 range, a lot of them UAE flights. I'm reading bad things about Emirates - people say they have dropped in quality considerably.

Thanks for help.

[NanLaew]

^ You can buy digital scales for weighing your bags from most travel accessory shops for less than a tenner. They are about the size of a medium flashlight, hook onto the handle, lift and will beep when it has tagged the weight which will be shown on the display. I always keep one in my hand-carry for when I encounter the excess baggage nazi's like the punters that lurk around the check-in desks at CDG.

Seat pitch and comfort depends on your height and physique. A 5'6" fatty may be more comfortable than a 6'4" beanpole in a 32" pitch seat which is the minimum and pretty much standard. If you can find 34" pitch, you will be surprised the difference the 2" makes. For example, Lufthansa's 747 are 32" and abysmal whereas THAI's A340's are (mostly) 34" and quite acceptable.

Forget about airplane food as a selection criteria. Bring your own sandwiches, fruit and snacks with you. And water... plenty water. UK airports (and Bangkok) have no issues with taking water bottles onboard that have been purchased air-side. Unfortunately, Amsterdam, Paris and Frankfurt have the security check immediately prior to the gates and will take any precious liquids off you.

Edited March 7, 2013 by NanLaew

[sustento]

Enormous number of people from the UK regularly fly to Thailand on the Middle Eastern airlines. Why don't you do a bit of research yourself and go and look at their websites? They all tell you what services they offer. Emirates, Qatar, Etihad. Also look at http://www.airlinequality.com/ for passenger reports on airlines and airports and www.seatguru.com for seating plans. Flying to CM takes an hour. You need to pick the right airline depending on how much baggage you have.

If you travel to the Middle East (or Thailand for that matter) thinking that they ought to change their laws to suit you then you're going to be very disappointed.

If they want international buisness they can't go around giving people 4 year prison sentences for having poppy seeds from food items stuck to their clothes.

Yes, they do need to change.

Oh dear. And you're a mod?

Let's get this straight. You're so unfamiliar with mass travel that you need to come to TV and ask strangers to do all your research rather than have the buzz of doing it yourself yet you're sufficiently knowledgeable to criticise the business sense of a country whose GDP per capita is in the top 20 worldwide?

[enyaw]

Open tickets are good and useful if not sure of your return date just make the changes via a local agent and you get a sticker to put on your ticket with new date. Otherwise the cheaper option would be to book a non changable outbound with changeable inbound ticket so give them a date you intend to return and then if you want to change then you can do at local agent and pay a fee, you would need to pay the fee each time you change though and a limit on stay.

Most 12 month tickets would have an option in the conditions to change the inbound at a fee I would say whichever airline?

I liked your comment regards middle east airlines, made me laugh and it's a concern sure regardless of how much oil they are sat on, backward attitude if they can give a 4 year sentence to a poor guy who has a micro crumb of marijuana on the insole of his shoe ?

[Malthus101]

Open tickets are good and useful if not sure of your return date just make the changes via a local agent and you get a sticker to put on your ticket with new date. Otherwise the cheaper option would be to book a non changable outbound with changeable inbound ticket so give them a date you intend to return and then if you want to change then you can do at local agent and pay a fee, you would need to pay the fee each time you change though and a limit on stay.

Most 12 month tickets would have an option in the conditions to change the inbound at a fee I would say whichever airline?

I liked your comment regards middle east airlines, made me laugh and it's a concern sure regardless of how much oil they are sat on, backward attitude if they can give a 4 year sentence to a poor guy who has a micro crumb of marijuana on the insole of his shoe ?

Thanks - there are a lot of people on these forums who are very knowledgeable and very forthcoming with useful informtion (just look at NanLaew's post about seat pitch - only a frequent flyer with years of experience would have that level of detailed information and now I have it within 30 seconds - amazing!) - in reply to the "do you own research" attitude - well, what I have done is find blogs on living in Thailand, then emailed the people who run those blogs - they have then told me about this and other forums, so I have come to ThaiVisa, a forum solely populated by people who fly to Thailand from the UK and US and other countries all the time and / or have relocated to Thailand just as I plan to do. I have then registered myself with the forum, read the threads and then asked questions where I felt I could not find the information - i.e. DOING RESEARCH!!!

So thank you Enyaw for being one of the helpful ones!

I think I have all the info I need now to make an informed choice about flying to Thailand - hopefully this thread will serve others in my position in the future as I feel it covers a lot of useful topics.

[beano2274]

hate to say it again but you seem to be lazy, I bet NanLaew got the information from own experience or using seatguru.com or airlinequality.com. I noticed you talked about a temporary passport, hope you got your visa sorted out.

Use matrix.itasoftware.com to get good prices then look on the airlines websites for the flights you want.

Book all the way through to Chiangmai, make it easier for yourself, and don't forget a water pistol or two

Edited March 12, 2013 by Maestro
corrected link